Why you need to use proper rifles in an adequate caliber for DG hunting.


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H&Hhunter
September 17, 2010, 11:12 PM
Here are three examples of why you don't use under powered calibers, why you don't use high magnification scopes, and why the double rifle is still king in many hunting scenarios on thick skinned DG in Africa.

This first clip is of Buzz Charleton of CM Safaris in Zimbabwe. His rifle of choice is a .416 Rigby in a stock Ruger RSM. The .416 is a serious DG caliber and about the minimum for use in elephant country. Notice how fast this goes from a stand off to a charge and you tell me what the outcome would have been if the pH would have been using a scoped rifle with the power set anywhere above about 1.5x.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq1dHZLA-2c&feature=related


In this second video the PH is Ivan Carter he is using a Heym Double most likely in .577 NE. You be the judge of what would have been the outcome had he needed to cycle a bolt. Watch how fast this happens and how quick he fires the second barrel which stopped the elephant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHbFfDXQSAY&feature=related

And for all of you folks who always tell me that you can shoot anything you want because the PH will back you up no matter what. Watch the slow motion part at the end and see who stopped the cow elephant. Hint is wasn't the PH in fact the you can see the PH's Ejected round sailing through the air just as the hunter taps his second barrel which stopped the charge. The PH is once again Buzz Charleton shooting his .416 the hunter is using a .500 NE double gun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KCQLwpJX8s

The moral of the story here is use the heaviest caliber that you can shoot accurately, If you can't handle at least a 400gr bullet producing something over 4,000 FTlbs don't hunt in wild elephant country. And last but most importantly DON'T ever rely on a PH to save your bacon. You need to be able to do it all by yourself.

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slabuda
September 17, 2010, 11:56 PM
What I find amazing is in the last video they managed to get the shots off on tgt while running backwards. Very impressive!!

Roughneck08
September 18, 2010, 01:52 AM
That is some great footage H&H. Thank you for letting people know (All the time) to not bring a 45/70 into Africa. Wow I think I'll stick to hunting whitetail and dove after watching that! Fun to watch though and thanks again I think everyone should heed your words on this forum.

H&Hhunter
September 18, 2010, 02:27 AM
The PH in this one is Barry Styles of Buffalo range safaris in Zimbabwe. Barry is shooting a Searcy in .470NE. Once again this goes from uh oh to holy crap in about 3 seconds. BTW have you guys figured out the difference between a real life caught on video charge and a set up Mark Sullivan charge....In the real life happen to be caught on video charges the camera man is running too!!:D

I've had a very similar situation happen to me with cow elephant and a converging mass charge. Fortunately we were able to get away without having to kill any elephants but I sure thought I was going to have to several times. Once this happens to you it will irrevocably change the way you think about your African hunting rifles. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbCilTpJzbI&feature=related

Roughneck08
September 18, 2010, 02:36 AM
Agreed. Those are mighty impressive shots while back peddaling and keeping your cool. Talk about a rush! And I thought a charging hog was adrenaline inducing for me! Your a brave man H&H.

375shooter
September 18, 2010, 09:30 AM
And for all of you folks who always tell me that you can shoot anything you want because the PH will back you up no matter what. Watch the slow motion part at the end and see who stopped the cow elephant. Hint is wasn't the PH in fact the you can see the PH's Ejected round sailing through the air just as the hunter taps his second barrel which stopped the charge. The PH is once again Buzz Charleton shooting his .416 the hunter is using a .500 NE double gun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KCQLwpJX8s



Excellent video footage. Thanks for bringing it to us. I agree with everything you have posted here except who saved the day in this video. It looks to me like the elephant was already going down before the client's second shot was fired. You can see how the front legs were spread as the animal was dropping before the client's second shot went off. Also, even if the elephant had not dropped, it looks like Buzz had time to cycle the bolt and deliver a second shot.

Leaky Waders
September 18, 2010, 10:26 AM
Not to be argumentative...and soley to stimulate more discussion...

1) I think these videos show how hard it is to suppress the fight or flight mechanism.

The PH's natural reaction is to evade and then a second or two later is to stand his ground and shoot. In Sullivan's vidoes (the clips that I've seen) he stands his ground. Also, I looked for the video but couldn't find it, but a team of hunters were grizzly hunting in Alaska, they got one, and soon afterwards another bear charged. They waved and shouted and then the guide shot the bear...they never ran. Neither proves bravery or anything, just how hard it is to suppress the flight if that is how you are wired. I've seen similar situations while we were mortared and rocket attacked in Iraq.

2) I was reading on chuck hawks...I know I know some people love him, some hate him - I tend to like it. He has a list of rifle cartridges comparing 8 bore and 10 bore rifles of yesteryear to the new DG cartridges today. The 8 bore and 10 bore just seem like shotgun slug like performance...so why is a 45/70 so bad?

I mean I know it's not THE choice to use based upon current knowledge...but if you were charged by a dangerous animal, should you unload your 45/70 or head straight for a tree/shelter etc? I tend to be in the camp to unload the 45/70.

3) Us hunters are fascinated with DG guns and performance, regardless if we will ever really have the opportunity to hunt Africa. I think that's why we get so many kill bear threads and elephant threads.

Regardless, I think it's awesome that some people have the opportunity to do these kind of adventures. I can live vicariously through their videos and books.

redneckdan
September 18, 2010, 01:27 PM
I am curious as to why you say no .45-70s? A 405 solid at 2100 fps is within spitting distance of 4000ft-lbs A siamese bolt, ruger 1 or 3 handles these loads with easy. With the marlin 1895 running up to 43500 CUP it is easily possible to get 3600 ft-lb with a 405 solid at 2000 fps. A lever gun is faster to cycle than a bolt action is, especially the magnum length actions.


The traditional african game rounds like the .375 H&H and the rigbys were loaded with cordite, which tends to break down and cause wonky pressures when stored in high heat environments for extended periods. Combine that with cartridge brass that wasn't as good as what we have today and tearing off a rim becomes a high probability.

JohnKSa
September 18, 2010, 03:12 PM
I agree with everything you have posted here except who saved the day in this video. It looks to me like the elephant was already going down before the client's second shot was fired. You can see how the front legs were spread as the animal was dropping before the client's second shot went off.That's what I see too--especially in the slow-motion section at the end of the third video. The elephant is already straddle-legged and off-balance before the third shot is fired.

I also think that a close examination of the second video in the original post shows that the elephant halted its charge at the first shot. It was on top of Carter at the first shot but then stopped giving Carter time for a second shot. If it hadn't stopped charging at the first shot not even the quick second shot from a double would have kept him from being trampled.

So good points, and good videos, but not necessarily the best videos to support the points made.

H&Hhunter
September 18, 2010, 05:39 PM
The PH's natural reaction is to evade and then a second or two later is to stand his ground and shoot. In Sullivan's vidoes (the clips that I've seen) he stands his ground.

Mark Sullivan makes his living off of filmed charges. He does so in many cases by approaching wounded animals in a manner which forces them to charge after of course he's had time to set up two or even three cameras to capture the drama and give a very clean piece of footage to sell to the viewing public. Whether or not he intentionally wounds these animals for the set up is point of hot contention. AKA Hollywood style. The stuff I showed you are not staged they are real life charges that were caught on film. I hope that you can understand the difference.

If you notice that in both cases Buzz wasn't running away he was getting to a better firing position. Buzz has stopped more elephant charges than probably any 10 modern day PH's combined. If you'd like to watch Buzz calmly standing his ground and stopping charges buy his DVD "Hunting the African Elephant" he's got some very good examples in that film.

He has a list of rifle cartridges comparing 8 bore and 10 bore rifles of yesteryear to the new DG cartridges today. The 8 bore and 10 bore just seem like shotgun slug like performance...so why is a 45/70 so bad?

And if you've read anything about hunting elephant with the 8,10 or even the 4 bore you'd know that they were horribly unreliable on brain shots and totally useless on frontal brain shots. The old time hunters could only use them reliably for heart lung shots. The .45-70 (which by the way I didn't mention in my post) also is an unreliable round for use on a frontal brain shot. They will work with the best loads on a side brain shot but elephants don't usually charge sideways.

I don't have any problem with a guy who wants to use his .45-70 for DG hunting in Africa. If you want to use your marlin for elephant hunting lay out your cash, book your trip, take lots of pictures and video and post a really great hunt report here. I'd love to read it. The .45-70 is a very marginally capable DG round for thick skinned critters. Pay your money take your chances.;)

The traditional african game rounds like the .375 H&H and the rigbys were loaded with cordite, which tends to break down and cause wonky pressures when stored in high heat environments for extended periods. Combine that with cartridge brass that wasn't as good as what we have today and tearing off a rim becomes a high probability.

Redneckdan,

And that was an issue 100 years ago when we were still using cordite. And you would read about hunters changing their rounds out every so often for ones kept cool in their pockets for that very reason. And of course it should go without saying that those days are long gone and that of course Randy Garret wasn't loading for the .45-70 back then so it's kind of a silly comparison.

As far as why I don't recommend the use of a .45-70 I've explained it numerous times on these boards so I won't boar you with my same old spiel again. I am just curious as to where I said no to the .45-70 in my OP? I said you shouldn't use underpowered calibers, did you automatically associate the .45-70 with underpowered and DG? If so I think you've answered your own question.;)

JohnKSa,

I agree that they aren't perfect but lets take video number three. Could you tell that the elephant was stumbling in real time? No, and neither could the PH or the hunter the point was the speed at which the double guy got off his second round as compared to the bolt gunner. That's all.

H&Hhunter
September 18, 2010, 05:54 PM
And here is why you should not use sub compact economy cars when hunting elephant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quCJrCDvtzg&NR=1

Floppy_D
September 18, 2010, 06:28 PM
Excellent post, H&Hhunter. Thanks for sharing.

Leaky Waders
September 18, 2010, 09:51 PM
"The stuff I showed you are not staged they are real life charges that were caught on film. I hope that you can understand the difference."

I know...I'm simply stating that even though a PH knows the scenario that he (are their any female PH DG ?) will be placed in, the fight or flight response seems to dictate the first couple of seconds before the encounter is over.

There is another youtube video...I can't freaking find a thing when I search for it, on some rangers on a tiger hunt. They are on elephants trying to sedate a tiger (I think in India). Well, to make a long story short, the tiger charges the rangers...two dismount the elephant, while the elephant 'driver'...holding the equivalent to a piece of bamboo, bows up to the tiger and starts fighting it back with the stick.

I thought it was a good example of fight or flight response. All the people involved, as in your videos, knew the scenarios, but their bodies reacted differently at the start of the encounter. Kind of neat in a geek way i think.

I'm not advocating the 45/70 for dg in Africa. I'm just curious how the 45/70 and 3006 fell out of favor for American DG hunting. Like, if you read a relaoding manual, both cartridges are considered unreliable on bears...but both have been used on game around the world.

Oh I don't own a marlin...just an 1886 winchester ;)

I'm still readying TR's book about Africa, I think he actually harvested an elephant with a 3006...I haven't gotten to that page yet.

I like your posts H&H, they're fun to read and I get to learn something at the same time. Kind of like Sesame Street for grown-ups.

JohnKSa
September 18, 2010, 10:09 PM
...the point was the speed at which the double guy got off his second round as compared to the bolt gunner. That's all.No argument here. It's impossible to argue that the second shot from a double isn't faster--it clearly is. In fact, I suspect that someone good with a double can get off 4 shots faster with an ejecting double than most could with a bolt. I'm just curious how the 45/70 and 3006 fell out of favor for American DG hunting.I'm not sure that the 45/70 was ever really popular for American DG hunting so saying it has fallen out of favor may be missing the mark a little.

murdoc rose
September 18, 2010, 10:50 PM
Excellent post, H&Hhunter. Thanks for sharing.

Ike R
September 18, 2010, 11:04 PM
Just curious, how effective do you think a 458 socom or 450 Bushmaster would be on DG in Africa? I don't mean elephants, hippos and rhinos, as I am pretty sure that it would not be enough for them. I am thinking more along the lines of Cape Buffalo and the big cats. I have been saving up for a nice guided hunt for elk, or a South American dove hunt however with my new promotion I might be able to save enough to hit Africa for antelope and maybe a buffalo or big cat since stuffing a hippo, elephant or rhino in my living space would be impossible.

Just asking your opinion as I have a love for my AR type rifles and would think it interesting to pursue useing one if it was possible.

If your wondering about South American dove hunts and going to your self !!!?!?!?!?!!! . I suggest you stumble video or youtube it, particularly Argentinan Dove Hunts.

JohnKSa
September 18, 2010, 11:41 PM
I'm sure H&H will have some good info for you in terms of ballistics, but I suspect that the legal issues surrounding taking a semi-auto to hunt in Africa will make the point moot.

Ike R
September 18, 2010, 11:43 PM
Ahh, I didn't know there where such law's! O well, probably going to buy something big and grand like a T Rex if I choose to go, just makes the trip that much further away!

H&Hhunter
September 18, 2010, 11:48 PM
LW,

I personally think the .45-70 when loaded with the correct ammo is a fantastic American DG round or any thin skinned DG such as bears and big cats. I don't think there are any flies on a properly loaded .30-06 either though it wouldn't be my first choice on big bears or big cats.

Ike,

The 458 Socom or BM are very anemic rounds with regards to cape buffalo. I wouldn't dream of using one for sport hunting them. They would however be suitable plains game rifle except for one teeny tiny little problem. You can't use semi automatic rifles for hunting anywhere in Africa and a military style rifle like an AR would get your butt locked away for a long long time. So that would be what we call a limiting factor in their usefulness as a hunting rifle in Africa.

redneckdan
September 18, 2010, 11:51 PM
edneckdan,

And that was an issue 100 years ago when we were still using cordite. And you would read about hunters changing their rounds out every so often for ones kept cool in their pockets for that very reason. And of course it should go without saying that those days are long gone and that of course Randy Garret wasn't loading for the .45-70 back then so it's kind of a silly comparison.

I wasn't comparing it with anything. Separate paragraph, separate thought. Just trying to illustrate where the notion of lower pressure rounds being better for africa came from.



As far as why I don't recommend the use of a .45-70 I've explained it numerous times on these boards so I won't boar you with my same old spiel again. I am just curious as to where I said no to the .45-70 in my OP? I said you shouldn't use underpowered calibers, did you automatically associate the .45-70 with underpowered and DG? If so I think you've answered your own question.



I got the impression that you didn't think the .45-70 was suitable from a comment a previous poster made. I guess I will have to search and see what your posts say about the cartridge. You gave a mathematical figure and I ran numbers and found that the .45-70 when loaded in a platform like the Siamese Mauser does meet those figures. I was wondering what other reasons you had for not liking the cartridge. I would guess that the 400gr reference was to a .416 caliber; in that situation the 400gr .416 would have an advantage over a .458 400gr as far as sectional density is concerned. Note that i am not an ardent fan of the .45-70 I did own a couple rifles in the caliber but don't currently. I got a .375 H&H and like that cartridge better than the .45-70 I just want to get some insight into your experiences and what factors would deem the .45-70 unsuitable.

Floppy_D
September 19, 2010, 12:21 AM
Having priced (with some genuine consideration) some Big 5 hunts, I can see why a serious hunter would skip to tried-and-true calibers and rifle configurations. The videos speak well for themselves. I'd hate to waste an expensive trip hoping to prove my rifle adequate. I'd rather focus on what I knew was proven. All things considered, the rifle/ammo are the inexpensive part.

Kudos to the African hunters; I'll stick to reading their exploits rather than living them.

H&Hhunter
September 19, 2010, 12:24 AM
Redneckdan,

I love the .45-70 and own several of them it simply doesn't have enough of anything to make it a suitable African DG cartridge. What I should have said was, Any cartridge of .400 cal or larger throwing a 400 gr slug with a sectional density of .300 or better and producing a FPE of greater than 4,000 and the closer to 5,000 the better. And when it comes to elephant something closer to .500 cal is even more better.

I do not recommend the .45-70 for African DG hunting.

Boberama
September 27, 2010, 06:02 PM
:evil:You just need a Marlin 1895 in 45-70 with Garrett loads.:evil:

That is, if you want the elephants celebrating.
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:t4A9COo90-iyXM:http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/3/28/633738305035918610-ElephantHighFive.jpg&t=1

waterhouse
September 29, 2010, 06:01 PM
Thanks for posting. The shooting under pressure while yelling and backpedaling seems like it would take a good bit of practice.

Robert Wilson
September 29, 2010, 07:41 PM
I won't pretend to have anything like the experience of Mr. Charleton, but he would be a bit faster if he'd cycle the bolt from the shoulder. He still would not be as fast for the second shot as the man with the double, of course, and that is a very valid reason for the double to exist. But then there is the man who needed three shots to stop the charge, and so on and so forth...

On the whole, I settle the double vs. magazine argument for myself by pointing out that credible work has been done with both.

And regarding the message about appropriate calibers, I will just add an "amen".

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