Taurus Judge


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daryl711
September 19, 2010, 09:23 AM
I want a gun that can carry easy and shoot snakes. Read good and bad about the Judge. Found one with ported 3 in barrel I can afford. I don't want to carry a shotgun. Please any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

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Idempotent
September 19, 2010, 09:31 AM
Why don't you use a revolver you (presumably) already have and just buy snake loads in .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum? Those will be better guns than the Taurus. Here's (http://www.cabelas.com/p-0003708210838a.shtml) an example of what's available.

Remember, the Judge is not a mini shotgun. It's rifled too. So you don't really get any advantage from it over just using a revolver you already have in a more practical caliber.

daryl711
September 19, 2010, 09:35 AM
The only .357 I have has a 1 in barrel . Will it still work with shot shell. Really don't want to get to close. Or would I be better off getting another one with maybe 4 in barrel?

Idempotent
September 19, 2010, 09:38 AM
What about any of the other calibers listed on there? If you have anything in, say, .45 ACP you can make a go of it. So long as you're willing to accept that you're probably turning your semi-auto into a single shot, because I don't think the snake loads would have enough momentum to cycle the action. But how many shots of .45 ACP do you really need against one snake, anyway?

daryl711
September 19, 2010, 09:44 AM
Have a couple .380's is all besides .22's. I tried .22 shot shell was useless for me. Eyes are not what they used to be so need something that spreads . That is why I was thinking of .410. Have a little saved up so can buy something. Just want what will work.

Idempotent
September 19, 2010, 09:45 AM
Ah, well if you really don't have anything else available I guess you could get the Judge. It's pretty cheap at least, right? But if it were me I'd upgrade to something that would have a little bit more practical utility for other applications as well, like a .357 Mag revolver.

I wonder if the .38 Spl snake loads would be good enough. Maybe someone can come along and answer that.

Idempotent
September 19, 2010, 09:49 AM
Oh, and I just came across this article (http://www.jamescalhoon.com/snakeloads.php). It's a good read on snake loads in .357 Magnum. The spread seems more than sufficient there, and if you look at what happened to those cans he shot, you know a snake in that situation would be dead.

daryl711
September 19, 2010, 09:51 AM
Would like to know that also. I have found the Judge with 3 in barrel. It has the ported barrel. It is same as new not been shot for $4oo. Or I can buy a .357 Tarus 4 in barrel. I know lots don't like Tarus, for about same price. I want it most to carry and shoot snakes.
Thanks

Taurus 617 CCW
September 19, 2010, 10:59 AM
How about a 4" barrel Ruger GP-100 in .357 mag for $410 on gunbroker?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=190765878

Believe me, I was a huge fan of Taurus when they first came on the market. I thought they were a great value for the money. I have had two out of three go back for mechanical failure. You are much better off with a Ruger or Smith. Otherwise if you really want a .410 you could go with a Thompson Contender that has a .410/.45 LC barrel on it. I have one with a .44 magnum barrel and I purchased the shot shells for it.

ricebasher302
September 19, 2010, 12:39 PM
While the performance of the .410 shotshells out of the Judge is pretty unimpressive, having used both a Judge and CCI shotshells out of my .357, I can confidently say that the Judge will provide much better standoff distance in the instance you meet with a big buzzworm. The pattern out of my 3" barreled .357 was amazingly inconsistent and wide-spread even from 8-10 feet. The .410 shells will at least provide a bigger payload of shot.

daryl711
September 19, 2010, 01:20 PM
I want to be able to kill one at 15 ft at least. Especially without my glasses. LOL. Seems like the Judge would do that better then shot shell in .357.

Big Bill
September 19, 2010, 02:34 PM
daryl - for that money I'd give that 3" judge a try. I haven't heard or read many complaints about them. I have a 3" SP101 that works great with Snake Shot. So, don't be afraid of the barrel length.

Pyzon
September 19, 2010, 06:48 PM
Daryl-

Here is my 2 cents worth of personal advice after owning and shooting a 3" barreled 3" magnum Judge for a couple of years and maybe 400 total of all kinds of shells.

Take a look at the pellet load of a 2.5" or 3" .410 shotshell (you don't mention the cylinder length of what you are looking at) and you will find either 1/2 oz or what, 11/16 of an ounce of shot, say #6, perfect for normal rattlers or copperheads at your range of 5 yards. That load will contain somewhere around 120-150 or so pellets at .109".

Compare that with what you get with the factory loaded shot in .357,.45 or what have you, and you will find a huge difference in both weight of shot load and shot size.

I can assure you that The Judge is not easy to carry due to it's weight and size, but at reasonable range it is real serious Mojo for poisonous snakes. Only thing I can think of what would be more lethal would be a long barreled shotgun, which is even harder to carry, so go with The Judge if snake medicine is your main interest. It works fine.

daryl711
September 19, 2010, 08:21 PM
The one I am looking at is 3 in barrel and 2.5 shells. I read where it spreads so fast that at 10 or 15 ft maybe 2 or 3 shot would hit snake. I hate to wear glasses and anymore my choice is long barreled shot gun. I have no trouble with it. I want something that can carry easy and just point and it will hit it. Maybe I am wanting something that is not out there.

gofastman
September 19, 2010, 11:05 PM
maybe take a look at their ultralite models too.

...oh, and get Lasik :p

fireman
September 19, 2010, 11:16 PM
10" .410 under $200.00
http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/Default.aspx?item=SCP40000&index=1&mfg=Comanche&mdl=All&cat=All&type=All&cal=All&fin=All&sit=Adjustable&pid=&inv=

fireman

oldbanjo
September 19, 2010, 11:18 PM
I bought a Bond Arms Derringer Century 2000, 3 1/2" barrel. Shoots 3" 410 or 45 Long Colt. I also bought a 22LR barrel. I carry it in a shoulder holster on my right side when on my motorcycle. I LOVE IT.

oldbanjo
September 19, 2010, 11:33 PM
I always carry a 357/38 snake shot in my pocket. In the past I have killed probably 100 snakes with my S&W MD36 Chief Special using snake shot. Now I carry a Ruger SP 101 and keep a snake shot in my pocket. The Derringer does best on snakes with 2 1/2" #6 shot. I kill 6-8 snakes every year. The rifled barrel spreads shot pretty quickly.

wrs840
September 19, 2010, 11:36 PM
I have a Judge (UltraLite 3"bbl, 2-3/4" chambering) that I wear on my hip in a leather Hunter thumb-break Holster made for that particular Judge. It is often my sidearm of choice when doing farm chores where my most likely threat-encounter is copperheads. It's typically loaded with two Federal #4 "personal defense" shotshells and three Winchester 225gr Silvertip hollowpoints. I carry two speedstrips with six-each more Silvertips in my pocket. I always have a S&W 442 in my pocket during those times too. The Judge is far from my favorite handgun, but it's the right tool for that scenario, IMO, and also happens to be the most comfortable sidearm I own for sitting in a tractor-seat.

My Judge takes a lot of abuse, and I've had no malfunctions with it. The #4 shot will chew-up a copperhead, and the Silvertips fire accurately enough to easily hit a rabid skunk or feral dog at 50 feet.

Les

weregunner
September 20, 2010, 12:43 AM
Let's get down to brass tacks.

These two links have to do with the Judge and actual snake shootings.

http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=37806.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=40569.0

It seems in one of the lastest issues of American Handgunner the author of the article proved that while .38 Special shoot loads worked well it was the .45 ACP shot shells shredded the snake opposition. Same for rats and other vermin.

Other authors in recent periodicals for this year also echoed the same sentiments. Some of them lived in the West, one in Florida, and one in Missouri.

Now, for the scoop on the Taurus Judge and right from the actual owners.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6347713&postcount=18

There are links within the link that need to be gone through.

http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=36284.msg421351#msg421351

This link has the capabilites and limitations of what the Judge ammo can do.

daryl711
September 20, 2010, 06:59 PM
Found a guy that I know that has a Judge. He is bring it down in the next few days for me to shoot. This should make up my mind. Thanks for all the help.

Guns and more
September 20, 2010, 09:48 PM
I just bought a Bond Snakeslayer IV. Smaller than a Judge, two rounds of .410.
Well made.

plumbernater
September 20, 2010, 10:22 PM
My wife has the first style judge before the magnum came out. She carries hers and in the right holster its not that bad. buck shot at about 20 feet will stay in a 3 inch circle on a paper plate cow boy loads 45 aint bad ether. Bird shot well that will fill that same paper plate at 20 feet. I like the gun and so does my wife its hers. she calls it her pocket book shot gun, keeps 3- buck shot and 2- 45s in the cylinder.

XxWINxX94
September 20, 2010, 10:33 PM
Judge owner here,
If you can find a deal on one, go for it.
Never had to use it on snakes, but would definatly trust it with a nice buckshot in there. Local FFL & I know each other and he gave me $50 off the sticker price, so I walked away with a good deal.


Don't have any expirence with other shotshells in the .357 variety, so I'm not going to speak for them.

joepav
September 21, 2010, 01:37 AM
Derringer:)

RX-178
September 21, 2010, 01:50 AM
I dislike Taurus, for what I consider to be disingenuous marketing that they use for the Judge. They market it as a hand held shotgun for defense, when every single water jug or ballistic gelatin test that's been done on it has proven it is unsuited for the job when loaded with .410 shells.

Of course, I also dislike HK's company policies, but I carry a USP .45 Tactical because I can't fault the quality of the product.

I don't find anything wrong with the Judge as a product. In my view, it is a .45 Long Colt revolver that can fire .410 shells. That's a darned useful combination, and means you can easily carry just one handgun to handle snakes, and personal defense, and use ammo that you can pick up at wally world. (I haven't found any pistol or revolver caliber snakeshot locally to date) I like that.

chanroc
September 21, 2010, 09:15 PM
I have a Judge with the 2.5" chamber and the 3 inch barrel. I love it. I disagree about it being a poor self defense gun for the home. Using Federal's buckshot for the Judge gave me a nice tight fist size group of 4 000 buck holes in a target at 7 yards. Also, I was surprised how accurate the .45 colt shot out of it...again at 7 yards. Those were CCI Blazer 200gr JHP. As to using shot shells, they spread out pretty quick even at 5 yards and I was using #4 shot.

I also like the fiber optic sight and how it grips in my hands (which surprised me). While there a probably better home defense guns, I can't think of any better that handle snakes as well. Still, I've only used .22lr shot shells and those were anemic. I haven't tried any other caliber for snakes. I've had no issues mechanically with the Judge, and had a Taurus PT-92 from the 90s that shot just as good as my Glock and never had a problem with it either (I sold it and regret doing so). Curious what you think of it. Good luck!

RX-178
September 21, 2010, 11:35 PM
Welcome to THR, chanroc!

To be more specific on what I don't like about Taurus and the Judge, let me start off by being more specific about what I /do/ like about it.

First, it's a good .45 long colt revolver. It's not as accurate with the .45LC as, say a Ruger Redhawk, but it also costs about $200 less than a Ruger. And it has the versatility of also loading .410 shells for dealing with snakes.

My problem is, that even with a Judge as your weapon, there is no reason to use a .410 shell for personal or home defense. The same weapon can fire .45 long colt, which has been proven by at least 3 or 4 water jug/ballistic gelatin tests to be superior for defense, even over the Federal Judge buckshot load. The .45 long colt has been proven to have better penetration than a .410 SLUG in the same tests.

That has nothing to do with the function of the weapon. The problem is, Taurus aggressively markets the Judge as having shotgun firepower in a hand held revolver, and advertises using .410 buckshot as a defensive load when using the Judge. They're using the gimmick of firing shotgun shells to sell the product, even when it's not in the best interests of their customers, and that's what I dislike about it.

greyling22
September 22, 2010, 12:07 AM
you know what also works really well on snakes? a rock. sticks too. save your money for something fun to shoot.

full disclosure: I hate the judge and I've never shot it. it's bad revolver design and a worse shotgun. A miracle in marketing though. It's huge for a revolver for such a short barrel. the chamber has to be too long to be really effective with the 45LC, and the .410 has no place in my life. if you need ratshot, buy ratshot 357's. but hey, I've got 5 shotguns and 3 pistol caliber lever action rifles, who am I to talk about buying based on a NEED. if you want a judge, buy a judge. I'd never buy a PT cruiser but Chrysler sure sold a lot of them, so what do I know.

suemarkp
September 22, 2010, 01:32 AM
There are certainly worse loads than four 000 buckshot pellets at once. The advantage of the buck loads is reduced penetration in an urban environment. The 45 colt may have better stopping power, but it will penetrate your neighbor's house too. Buckshot is a short range proposition, especially in the judge because it doesn't start out very fast.

Perhaps the ideal home defense round would be the 460 S&W loaded with three .45 balls (payload would weigh about 420 grains!). Less penetration than a normal 45 bullet, but you get three holes at once.

I like the judge because I was just not happy with the performance of 45 colt rounds loaded with shot using Speer shot cups. The factory shot cup rounds are limited to #9 shot --snakes only! But when you start handloading using #7.5, #6, or BB, the 45 Colt just doesn't have the capacity. The 410 does. The 460 S&W does. But the 460 S&W weighs a ton...

Dimis
September 22, 2010, 02:04 AM
Im an owner of a 3x3 judge (3 inch chamber 3 inch bbl) and have loved it every second

I know its not a great self defense gun but as my old sig said "Nobody wants to stand in front of a judge"
Ive taken snakes on my property with it effectivly enough i mean realisticly how dead can ya get? 12 gauge at 5 feet dead? what exactly is our gauge here?

I would say get it the thing works and better yet makes people angry that your not only a taurus owner but a judge owner too

full disclosure: I hate the judge and I've never shot it. it's bad revolver design and a worse shotgun. A miracle in marketing though. It's huge for a revolver for such a short barrel. the chamber has to be too long to be really effective with the 45LC, and the .410 has no place in my life. if you need ratshot, buy ratshot 357's. but hey, I've got 5 shotguns and 3 pistol caliber lever action rifles, who am I to talk about buying based on a NEED. if you want a judge, buy a judge. I'd never buy a PT cruiser but Chrysler sure sold a lot of them, so what do I know.

So you basicly are saying that due to your own stuborness its not a good gun?
having absolutly no experience with one you can determine that it is an inferior product?
how is it a bad design? i mean its miles ahead of the old thunder 5
Its honestly not that big if you have ever held a smith 500 its alot more to try and wrangle... for the most part my judge handles as well as my ruger 357
the chamber being long does effect the 45 but its not detrimental you have to be honest with yourself if you bought one of these its not to shoot 45 accuratly (or at least as accuratly as a gun designed just for colts)
410 may not have a place in your life but some of us love the little shotshell that could makes for great snake loads and a heck of a challenge for skeet
oh and i wouldnt buy a PT Cruiser either theyre just ugly and slow (even the GT model)

nonseven
September 22, 2010, 05:28 PM
I think the judge will do what you want quite handily. I've got a public defender, and just bought a 3 inch barrel ultralight. Not only are they a blast to shoot, but they are quite versatile. The ultralight would be nice if you carry a lot and shoot little, but the regular steel version would be better if you shoot more often. I think Taurus quality has gotten better -- you don't hear about nearly as many problems these days.

daryl711
September 22, 2010, 07:28 PM
I think I am going to buy one. Now my problem is I found a new Judge, blue,3 in barrel and Mag version for $530 out the door. Just wondering if being able to shoot 3 in shells worth an extra $100.

Dougr6
September 22, 2010, 09:29 PM
What you need is a "Super Comanche". For $160 dollars you get a H.D. Stainless, single shot. 410/.45 pistol. Shoots 3" shells okay. 13 inch long overall. Has safe hammer.
Good gun for snakes and to leave in truck and not worry about losing a more expensive
weapon.

Beach Nut
September 22, 2010, 09:53 PM
I happen to have the 6.5" Judge with a non ported barrel. It produces a
18" spread at about fifteen feet with #4 shot. It is also reasonably accurate
with .45LC loads. I bought it as a fun gun, but after seeing what it could
do with birdshot, I realized I had an answer for the copperhead problem
in my back yard (I usually kill three or more in my yard every year). The
3" barrel pattern may open up at fifteen feet. I'd look for the Judge in
a longer barrel length if you are looking for a trail gun. You will also
notice increased accuracy with the .45 LC loads.

wrs840
September 22, 2010, 10:26 PM
Just wondering if being able to shoot 3 in shells worth an extra $100.

I don't think so. It just adds extra bulk to a Judge for no reason. Magnum shells, IMO, have only one asset: A little more range (maybe 10%) when game hunting with "real" game shotguns. Think geese. A Judge is a very-close-range weapon.

I happen to have the 6.5" Judge with a non ported barrel. It produces a
18" spread at about fifteen feet with #4 shot.

This sounds about right. My 3" bbl Judge will produce a 18" spread with #4 at about twelve feet.

"buck shot at about 20 feet will stay in a 3 inch circle on a paper plate... Bird shot ... will fill that same paper plate at 20 feet..."

^^^^
This is a real head-scratcher for me. Mine sure won't do that. 20 feet is more like a 30" pattern with mine.

The Judge is not a useless gun. Over-estimating it as some sort of do-all solution is not a good idea though, IMO. It's a Jim-Dandy snake gun that will also serve you pretty well shooting .45LC at 50-70 feet or so.

FWIW,
Les

5532JWK
September 23, 2010, 09:13 AM
My Judge with the 410 buckshot works great at short distances.

daryl711
September 23, 2010, 11:15 AM
Dougr6

I went to two gunshops looking for a Super Comanche and both said," you don't want that gun". Neither gave me a precise reason but recommended I stay away from it. So sort of put me off.

chanroc
September 23, 2010, 02:01 PM
This might be getting off topic and I appologize if it is, but has anyone compared Federal's Judge buckshot load (4 000 buck pellets in the 2.5) vs the normal 2.5 shell with just 3 #000 pellets? I don't have enough evidence to support it, but I've had better luck getting tighter groups with Federal's buckshot load than the normal Winchester shells. It might be that I'm just use to the gun now and the only buckshot load I could only get back then was the traditional buckshot shells. Anyhow, since I live in a condo, I'm going to stick with 3 of the 4 000 buck shells and 2 200gr JHP .45 rounds in it for home defense. My other night stand gun is a 2.5" S&W 586 loaded with the good old .38 Special FBI load. As I said before, the Judge is a fun gun. As an alternative, you might want to look at the Bond Arms .45/.410 derringer. It got a nice write up on Gunblast. It's a little beefier than a traditional derringer, yet a lot smaller than the Judge. I appreciate the feedback on this topic. Good luck to the original poster.

Guns and more
September 23, 2010, 02:08 PM
I just bought a Bond Snakeslayer IV. Looks like a derringer but much bigger. Super quality, 2 rounds of .410.
There is a lot more .410 out there due to the popularity of the Judge.
I bought the Winchester DPX that has 3 discs and 12 BB's.
Along with two different kinds of Buckshot. One is 000 and the other 00. strangely, both have 4 pellets.
Just for fun I'm going to try some birdshot to look at the pattern also.
I'm not sure how ranges look at the Bond or Judge; shotgun or pistol?
I don't mind going on a shotgun range, but I want to pattern at 10'-20'.

jim goose
October 1, 2010, 08:29 PM
I do not know why? But all the talk and mind altering marketing makes me feel like I need one in quiver.

TheEasy1
October 11, 2010, 08:48 AM
Opinions vary about the Judge, but the gang at www.survivalreviews.com have a nice review article. I think they tested #4 shot and Federal Premium 000 Buck.

http://www.survivalreviews.com/index.php/reviews/reviewsguns/154-taurus

I am definitely buying one of these!

Brian Williams
October 11, 2010, 10:41 AM
I will not buy one of these.

Guillermo
October 11, 2010, 11:15 AM
Were it me I would not buy a Judge. They are not very good shotguns and they are not very good 45's.

Some folks love them but I just don't get it.

Get a good revolver and either load it with snake shot or just practice a little (shoot low) and you can become a snake slayer extraordinaire

MCgunner
October 11, 2010, 01:21 PM
I pretty much agree with Guillermo, though I do see a niche for the guns in thin walled apartments. God help me if I ever have to live in an apartment again, though, LOL. I kinda like the little PD, but hey, you could shorten the heck out of it by just making it a .45Colt....:rolleyes: I have little use for the .410 in one. I have a TC barrel in .410, fun, has a choke, gives it some range.

Snakes. I get a chuckle out of those worried about snakes and those that think if they hve to kill one, they can't do it with a bullet. Hell, I've shot rattlers with a 1 5/8" NAA mini using a hollow point before. Hitting a snake's head at 10 feet isn't that tough. :rolleyes: I've even done it with the snake on the move. No real need to kill a snake. Ain't like I'm going to thin 'em out or anything, but they are decent battered and fried and are easy to skin/clean. Makes for some fun walk abouts in the spring. I just take a .22 or might take along my Contender with the .410 barrel. If I hear a hog in the brush, I can pull the choke off and load a .44 mag equivalent handload pretty quickly. Stronger gun than the Judge.

Now, I'm wondering about this new "Raging Judge". I bet it weighs as much as my Remington M7, though. :rolleyes:

Guillermo
October 11, 2010, 01:26 PM
they can't do it with a bullet

In their defense it does take practice McG. You have to fire, according to your sites, very low.

That said, I do not load with snake shot anymore. I can hit em'.

And you are not the most conventional thinker either. Dodn't you power your weed wacker with a 250cc Suzuki 2 stroke?

:what:

MCgunner
October 11, 2010, 02:00 PM
And you are not the most conventional thinker either. Dodn't you power your weed wacker with a 250cc Suzuki 2 stroke?

Well, I had a TZ250 on it, but got tired of rebuilding the top end every lap around the yard. FAST, though. ....:p

weregunner
October 11, 2010, 04:26 PM
I won't buy a Judge either, but for the following reasons.

I own a Taurus 441, 4 inch barrel, .44 Special revolver. It does anything the Judge would do as far as single projectiles go.

For snakes the .44 Special snake shot put out by CCI will kill any snake within realistic shooting distances for a situation like this.

I also own other Tauri,Ruger, or Rossi revolvers that will fill all my needs and niches.

On the other hand I do recognize that for many the Judge does fill their needs or as a fun gun.

No, I have no need for one, but I am not going to dump on other shooters or the gun itself. There is a plethora of Judge types to fill the bill for close in defense. Do realize that there are limitations and some handicaps for having a hand gun that is not good for anything, but room length or closer encounters. If it goes beyond that one is in trouble.

Yes, I know that a lot of encounters are up close and personal. If the attacker/s are steaming up your fur then the Judge works out well.

There are many cases where the range goes beyond telephone booth distance encounters. In that case the regular one bullet at a time handgun is a better choice. Yes, there might be some exceptions.

Don't assume that all attacks are the same or that the circumstances of the attack will be.

nonseven
October 11, 2010, 06:26 PM
I recently chrono'd the new Winchester PDX1 (3 disk and 12 BB) 410 self defense round out of a 3" 2 1/2" cylinder judge.

The payload weighed aout 300 grains, and clocked about 725 fps out of the judge. That's kinetic energy of 350 ft lbs. Pretty decent recoil too.

For comparison, I shot my S&W 632 with a 3" barrel (ported with expansion chamber, leaving about 2 2/3" effective barrel length) in 327 Federal with the 115 gr speer gold dot factory load.

Now shooting those side by side, I would have sworn that the 410 load had more energy, but the 115 grain bullet from the .327 catridge chrono'd at 1400 fps out of that little Smith, producing an energy of 500 ft lbs!

Therein lies the question about the Judge for self-defense with buckshot, do any or all of those lead balls have enough velocity for adequate penetration?

But it sure will kill a snake.

Guillermo
October 11, 2010, 07:44 PM
I am not going to dump on other shooters or the gun itself

hopefully nobody takes any of this personally.

different strokes.

I don't understand it but this is, or was recently, america. They can buy em buy the dozen as far as I am concerned

suemarkp
October 11, 2010, 10:41 PM
Penetration has more to do with weight than velocity. Energy goes up with velocity squared. Which do you think is more effective -- your 500 ft-lb 327 load, or a 350 ft-lb 45 ACP? At best, I would say they are equal. At worst (e.g. bullet failure to expand), I'd give the advantage to the 45 ACP which has a larger energy disadvantage compared to the 327.

I'd much rather have the 327 though if I had to shoot further than 100 yds.

nonseven
October 12, 2010, 09:52 AM
I wasn't debating the 45acp here. The 327 is a proven penetrator, with the 115 grain load. But how about an even lighter 70 grain or so lead ball at 750 fps from the judge?

But as far as weight being more important than velocity for penetration - not true. They are equally important and both of them have to be in a relevant range for penetration to occur. And of course the shape and physical properties of the projectile matter greatly.

mgkdrgn
October 12, 2010, 02:07 PM
I want to be able to kill one at 15 ft at least. Especially without my glasses. LOL. Seems like the Judge would do that better then shot shell in .357.
oh yes, oh my yes.

I actually -own- a judge, and it will make an excellent snake gun.

Guillermo
October 12, 2010, 05:31 PM
I actually -own- a judge,

must be nice

I own a city councilman, but not a judge

JK

:evil:

Critical J
October 13, 2010, 05:11 AM
HERE IS YOUR ANSWER:

it's a pretty penny by comparisson, but get you a Bond Arms Snake Slayer. Yes, it's a derringer so you only get 2 shots but you're only killing snakes with it anyway! However, as for snakes of the bipedal variety, have your Slayer chambered in .410, just like The Judge, and load it with PDX1s (3 metal slugs and 12 defensive pellets per shot) my wife carries that precise CCW layout every day and I'm still jealous even though I carry a 6-shooter!

YOU'RE WELCOME!

Critical J
October 13, 2010, 05:38 AM
P.S.

I love the concept of The Judge and absolutely want one (someday) but it keeps getting pushed back because there's simply more important guns out there for me to own, that in ans of itself says something about this revolver. However, when considering the pros and cons of Mr. Judge, remember not to compare it to all other handguns because it's kind of in a class all its own:
* too big to be a convenient CCW
* too inaccurate for target shooting/hunting
* too few shots for a modern gunfight (which will never happen)
* too dang lame to be worth putting-up againsy a real shotgun

Q) so, that said, what's it even good for?!
A) exactly what they advertise it for and nothing else...

The Judge is no marketing gimmick, they actually did put real boafide R&D into this firearm which is thereal reason it's such a good seller. I mean honestly, don't we all know more people who own a Judge
because they've already got most everything else they need, but also liked what The Judge had to offer, than suckers who actually got realed-in by sales padder and mistakenly believed The Judge to be some "wonder gun", honestly? NO! Folks do their research when buying guns and cars and the like, and folk that own a Judge do so because see a practical application for it in their lives...

Guns and more
October 13, 2010, 10:24 AM
If you like the Judge, but think it's too big (I do) take a look at the Bond Snakeslayer.
A very solid large derringer with two rounds of .410
I got one because I wanted a dedicated bedside gun.

nonseven
October 13, 2010, 01:53 PM
I carried a Bond 410/45 a few times with a 3" barrel. Then I chrono'd the Federal 000 buck load and it didn't even break 600 fps. The PDX1 round does about the same. I then gave up the idea of 410 shells in the Bond for defense from 2 legged critters. Not enough velocity for reliable penetration. If you must carry the bond for that reason, use a 45 colt personal defense load and save the shotshells for snakes.

Guns and more
October 13, 2010, 04:08 PM
Not enough velocity for reliable penetration.
I read the post of a fellow who defended his life with a Bond using buckshot in a carjacking.
The .410 did just fine.

The survivor was "Chaplin Tom" and his story was well written and compelling.

(I bought the 4 1/4" barrel, it's not what I'd use for carry because it's heavy.)

TheEasy1
October 14, 2010, 01:50 PM
Where is this message? I would love to read his story. Can you post it or message me with the Link? Thanks!

Guns and more
October 14, 2010, 03:09 PM
Where is this message? I would love to read his story.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=237382&highlight=Bond&page=2

Scroll down to post #39. I respect his honesty.

Paladin7
October 14, 2010, 04:41 PM
I looked at the Judge as well and here is what I think...

I don't trust Taurus reliability or build quality so a few strikes there.

They are big and heavy, another strike for me.

And ballistics just aren't that impressive. Not sure if someone already gave you this link but here it is ... http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

There are newer personal defense loads in .410 that were made for the Judge that might be worth checking out as well before you make a decision.

For me, I decided to pass as I already have a S&W 696 that is my woods gun that can handle snake shot and anything else for that matter.

suemarkp
October 15, 2010, 02:39 AM
I wasn't debating the 45acp here. The 327 is a proven penetrator, with the 115 grain load. But how about an even lighter 70 grain or so lead ball at 750 fps from the judge?

But as far as weight being more important than velocity for penetration - not true. They are equally important and both of them have to be in a relevant range for penetration to occur. And of course the shape and physical properties of the projectile matter greatly.


A 327 spitzer seems about as relevant to a 35 ball as to 45 ACP. A 71gr 32 ACP ball seems to have sufficient penetration in people. Penetration is the key thing for the Judge load -- if you want short range penetration only, round balls are a good way to go. From all accounts, it seems like 000 buckshot has ample penetration for humans. Although you could say at what range, it seems to have enough penetration in gel down to about 600 - 650 fps. Hard balls are important, as soft ones may deform and limit penetration.

I disagree about velocity and weight being equally important for penetration. Obviously, there is a velocity floor required for penetration to occur. From a physics point of view, either mass or velocity should provide equally for penetration after that. But velocity is shed and mass is not. Anyone who hunts knows that bullets that are heavy for their caliber penetrate better than the lighter ones. That is true even for hard cast ones that don't expand.

nonseven
October 15, 2010, 01:30 PM
My argument is that weight and penetration both have to be at correct values for penetration to occur. Within a relevant range, one can certainly be more important than the other. But then both have to be in a certain range or penetration does not occur.

You can throw a 185gr 45 slug at me with your arm, and if it does not penetrate, will throwing a 300 grain slug at me solve the problem?

Of course the same argument can be made about velocitity. If I have a 15gr .22 cal slug that does not penetrate a steel plate at 1000 fps, will increasing the veloicty to 1500 fps do it? Probably not.

toolanddiemv
November 18, 2010, 02:56 AM
one of the loads for the judge is 2-1/2 with 3 metal disks and 12 bee bees sounds cool i got one recently 3 in cylinder 4 in barrel stainless cant wait to go try it out also got all the stuff to reload 45 LC

sxcamaro05
November 18, 2010, 03:45 AM
I am at a cross roads with the Judge. My Uncle has one and the 410 part is blah, and the 45lc is very nice. Bulky, heavy, but has a nice feel. I could see this firearm becoming more of a "well I have a..." piece. I suppose it does its job but I believe it is way over hyped.

oldfool
November 18, 2010, 09:12 AM
you could have mine for FREE
(if I had one)
worst of both worlds

but shotgun shells always were real good snake killers, especially when fired from... shotguns
(and never once had a barrel fall off any of my shotguns when fired, not even the cheapo single shots, just lucky, I guess)

PS
if you wait just a little bit longer, maybe Ruger will come out with an LCR version in 45/410, but probably only after the 44mag version

sansone
November 18, 2010, 09:18 AM
I really do not see why people like the "judge" other than as a novelty gun.. sorry, flame me now :D

Nushif
November 18, 2010, 02:14 PM
Dunno about the effectiveness on snakes, but I got to demolish a pumpkin with one the other day. And it was a freakin' BLAST.
A while ago my wife beat into me that not all my guns have to fill a freakin' tactical niche to be of merit. At the end of the day I like to think that most of us shoot because it's fun and as a by-product we can defend ourselves better than most. But hey, maybe that's just my reasons. I know I seem to enjoy my guns a lot more than most. And about two thirds of my collection are ridiculous pieces that I picked up because they made me laugh when I shot them.

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