Black soot on my handgun cases after shooting!


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alpha6164
September 19, 2010, 11:29 AM
I reload for 9mm and 10mm and notice that there are black soot on the side of most brass i pick up. I dont see this as much with a factory loaded round. I use the Hornady dies that seat and crimp in one station and wondering if maybe the crimp is not right or tight enough??? There are no pressure signs at all on any of the brass such as flatten primers, leaking primers, case bulges or cracks, etc. All inputs appreciated.

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RustyFN
September 19, 2010, 11:43 AM
Nothing to worry about. Some powders are famous for that. I see that a lot when I use Titegrouup no matter what caliber I use it in.

Captcurt
September 19, 2010, 11:45 AM
Sounds like a lite load. Check your load with a couple of loading manuals. You might have to step it up a notch or change powders.

rtpzwms
September 19, 2010, 11:57 AM
I agree with Captcurt sounds like a lite load. You didn't tell us what you loaded so hard to say. Give us the load and we might be able to help more.

alpha6164
September 19, 2010, 12:03 PM
Thanks for the input. Actually the loads are on the max side of things.

For example:

10mm 180gr XTP AA#9 14.0gr 1.260"
10mm 155gr XTP AA#9 15.9 gr 1.260"

9mm 147gr Gold Dots AA#7 7.2gr 1.13"
9mm 124gr XTP AA#7 8.2gr 1.12
9mm 124gr XTP Ramshot Silhouette 5.6gr 1.16"

All the above are at max or slightly over. My 10mm is shot thru my Glock 20 which has a LW barrel with much better chamber support than standard Glock barrel and no signs of over pressure seen.

Captcurt
September 19, 2010, 01:48 PM
Thanks for the input. Actually the loads are on the max side of things.

For example:

10mm 180gr XTP AA#9 14.0gr 1.260"
10mm 155gr XTP AA#9 15.9 gr 1.260"

9mm 147gr Gold Dots AA#7 7.2gr 1.13"
9mm 124gr XTP AA#7 8.2gr 1.12
9mm 124gr XTP Ramshot Silhouette 5.6gr 1.16"

All the above are at max or slightly over. My 10mm is shot thru my Glock 20 which has a LW barrel with much better chamber support than standard Glock barrel and no signs of over pressure seen.
You have me stumped, Alpha. I have shot a lot of AA#9 in 357 and never noticed soot any worse than other powders.

You have my full attention now. Inquiring minds want to know.

918v
September 19, 2010, 01:51 PM
I dunno why people care about soot.

CSA 357
September 19, 2010, 01:59 PM
are you loading cast or jacked bullets?

alpha6164
September 19, 2010, 02:02 PM
I dunno why people care about soot.]


I dont particularly care about it just that when i see a change from factory rounds i wanted to make sure nothing is out of whack.




are you loading cast or jacked bullets?

All jacketed bullets.

918v
September 19, 2010, 02:05 PM
The lower the pressure, the less complete the combustion, the more soot you'll see. You need to start worrying when the outside of the case comes out pristine looking.

alpha6164
September 19, 2010, 02:08 PM
^^^Can a light crimp cause it? I am wondering with the max powder charges and not enough crimp if some of the powder goes unburned maybe?

Maj Dad
September 19, 2010, 03:00 PM
I get soot on hot/max loads of several powders in 9mm & 45acp, esp. 9mm. I address the issue by tumbling them clean; there are no problems with accuracy or anything other than soot... :cool:

918v
September 19, 2010, 03:03 PM
A taper crimp does not increase case tension/ bullet pull, so that's not it.

Expanding the case mouth less increases case tension. Using a new case increases case tension. Cleaning the inside of the case increases case tension. The more case tension, the more bullet pull, the better the combustion. That's one of the reasons factory ammo appears to burn cleaner.

rfwobbly
September 19, 2010, 03:15 PM
I'm also with Captcurt. While color is not an conclusive test, it can be a fairly good indicator of combustion conditions. I put it in the same class as primer condition.

However, incomplete combustion can have numerous causes all of which basically boil down to the bullet being pushed out the barrel too easily or gas escaping too easily to allow the powder to burn at pressure. Such things as over size barrels, loose bullets, soft lead or soft plated bullets failing to obdurate, poor crimps, torn brass, using 9mm bullets in a 38/357, etc, etc.

Typically you see this when someone follows a load that specifies an xxx bullet and they sub a different construction bullet. You might check your load data against your materials list, and/or slug your bore.

Walkalong
September 19, 2010, 04:50 PM
I don't like sooty cases because most of the time it means I am getting incomplete/erratic combustion and my gun is getting dirty faster than necessary. Usually low pressure is the cause, but not always. That does not mean some dirty sooty loads don't shoot well, because some do.

Blind Bat
September 20, 2010, 12:58 AM
AA#7 is a pretty slow powder for 9mm. Slow powder plus a short barrel can equal more soot.

918v
September 20, 2010, 01:21 AM
I don't like sooty cases because most of the time it means I am getting incomplete/erratic combustion and my

A max load of 231 in the 9mm will soot the case pretty good while combusting completely. Some powders are more dirty than others, especially those that are covered in graphite.

1SOW
September 20, 2010, 01:47 AM
rf wobbly +1

Given no problems with the gun: Some powders seem to need need a minimum load to reach their range of "efficient combustion" even though they will operate the gun with lighter loads.

For me, in my gun, Win231 is "sooty" (on gun and cases) at low power factors/light loads. As the load goes up it burns cleaner and shoots better.

At exactly the same chrono speed as the lightly loaded 231, Vit n320 will burn much cleaner. It's not necessarily a better powder, it just burns more efficiently with light loads than many other powders. It also creates much higher pressures when you try to up the speed.

Walkalong
September 20, 2010, 08:39 AM
A max load of 231 in the 9mm will soot the case pretty good while combusting completely. Some powders are more dirty than others, especially those that are covered in graphite.
Right. Which is why I put these words in my post.
most of the time it means

Perhaps I should have said "much" instead of "most". A sooted case is a sign to check other things out, because it can be a sign of incomplete combustion etc.

I also said...
That does not mean some dirty sooty loads don't shoot well, because some do.

Venado
September 20, 2010, 02:30 PM
The only time I have had sooty cases, is when I shoot factory WWB .45acp(230gr.). The load does not have enough hmmph to fully expand the case, making a good gas seal. Some of the gas fills this space, leaving a soot on one side of the case.

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