What do you consider "A lot of rounds"


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Kingofthehill
September 19, 2010, 02:24 PM
I get this email today about a gun i am selling (Didn't happen here).

hi my name is XXXX and i have been looking at all kinds of springfields. it seems like alot of rounds have been down the barrel but i know how reliable they are. if you are willing to come down on the price, BLAH BLAH BLAH.

The Pistol in question is a Springfield XD-45. It has 1,320 exactly down the pipe (I keep notes and store on an excel spreadsheet).

So, what is a lot to you? IMO 500 is the bare minimum i would even start to trust the pistol with my life on. 1,000 rds is where i feel most triggers show their true colors.

With modern pistols going tens of thousands of rounds before real wear and tare, who is telling these people 1k is a lot?

M9
The Army was doing unrelated barrel testing on current production civilian model 92SB pistols and military model M9 pistols and ran into the same slide separation issue. They fired 3 M9 pistols 10,000 times and inspected the weapons with the MPI process for evidence of slide cracks. They discovered that one of the weapons had a cracked slide. The Army then decided to fire all of the weapons until the slides failed. Failure occurred at round number 23,310 on one weapon, 30,083 on another, and 30,545 on the last weapon. (NSIAD-88-213)

M&P
For those keeping track, the gun fired 62,333 rounds beginning on 22-Apr-08 and ending on 5-Dec-08, a total of 228 days, or 273.4 rounds per day.

HK 45
We passed the 30,000 mark this past week and still not a blip on the chart. Forty-seven of the When Will It Stop contestants have already fallen by the wayside.

The pistol received its (belated) 25,000-round scheduled maintenance, which involved replacing:


XD
Conclusion
Damned impressive. Of course the Glock (and other guns, as well) should be able to handle this kind of abuse. The point of this test wasn't to diminish any existing brand but to get a picture of the capabilities of the XD, which is a relatively new product. I completed this test with a great deal of admiration for this handgun. So much so, in fact, that it is now my nightstand gun. More than 20,000 rounds later, with no failures to feed or fire and hardly any wear to the gun's finish, I have no trouble whatsoever betting my safety on its performance.

Glock
Well, I just couldn't leave it alone. My curiosity about just how long the gun could survive continued to be intense. So, from my stores, I broke out an additional 25.000 rounds of assorted 9mm ammo and continued the test.

And now, the fall of 1995, after having fired a total of 100.000 rounds of virtually all kinds of ammunition...

There is one from a Glock Factory tour showing a glock 17 with some crazy number but i can't find it right now.

How many did the orginal John M Browning 1911 go through?

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Hanzo581
September 19, 2010, 02:31 PM
He is just trying to find any reason he can to make you come down on the price. 1,320 rounds is nothing.

RhinoDefense
September 19, 2010, 02:34 PM
Agreed.

The Wiry Irishman
September 19, 2010, 02:36 PM
I've only ever thought "wow, you've got a lot of rounds through that gun" when I meet somebody with a round count in the six figures.

I've found that "Do you think 1000 rounds is a lot of ammo?" is a pretty good litmus test of whether someone is a serious shooter or not.

Kingofthehill
September 19, 2010, 02:40 PM
He is just trying to find any reason he can to make you come down on the price. 1,320 rounds is nothing.

im hoping thats the case. I see people try and give reviews on guns and saying how great they are and "Not a single problem in 150rds".... geesh, i probably shoot 300 a week minimum of some sort of firearm.

bds
September 19, 2010, 02:40 PM
1000+ is often a range session for many shooters. :D

DRYHUMOR
September 19, 2010, 02:47 PM
Pistol may be close to being broke in, maybe. :D

It seems most people buying (or looking) seem to want clean and pristene. I figure around 1000 rds, the minor issues have been cleared up. After that, it's pretty much good to go.

Can't blame the guy for trying though....

Prion
September 19, 2010, 03:08 PM
Sounds like used car dealer-or a gun shop owner!

Mike J
September 19, 2010, 03:42 PM
1320 means it is just getting broken in good. That pistol should be good for a long time to come.

gwnorth
September 19, 2010, 03:51 PM
I had a few similar PMs about an all stainless 1911 I was selling with about 2000 rounds through it. One was just hoping to get his lowball offer accepted and another was a novice shooter who was genuinely just asking. When I told him that the round count was nothing in a gun that should easily have a service life of (who knows) 50k-100k rounds (?) he bought it and at my asking price.

Dobe
September 19, 2010, 04:39 PM
1,300 rounds means it's time to clean it.

Skylerbone
September 19, 2010, 04:40 PM
Your Majesty may wish to point him in the direction of Jerry Miculek of team S&W who fires 80,000+ rounds per year. Unless they're photoshopping he still has all 10 fingers and I doubt he goes through 80 handguns a year.

gglass
September 19, 2010, 05:18 PM
I shot just over 3,200 rounds this past week alone... I don't think my pistols are worn out from it.

wanderinwalker
September 19, 2010, 09:37 PM
To answer the OP, now, 1320 rounds is nothing. Just a drop in the bucket. I have a Glock 17 with ~10,000 rounds and it still looks and shoots great. Well, except for one trip back to Glock because it broke. The infamous E-series "recall-that-wasn't-really-a-recall" frame rail problem.

But in deference to the inquiry, think about this: To most gun owners, a brick of 500 .22LR ammo is A LOT of ammo. They keep at most 2-3 50 round boxes on hand for a handgun. How many people have ever taken a person shooting who buys ammo right before the range trip instead of by the case in advance? Just by the fact that we are posting on here on this forum, we are on the advanced edge of the usage curve of "average" gun owners.

I mean, really, there is a reason primers can be purchased by the 5k flat, powder comes in 4-8 pound containers, and... ;)

(Of course, I have an AR-15 match rifle with about 9000 rounds through it, on it's second barrel. It's getting rebarreled this winter for the next 3000-4000 rounds of use! :cool: )

Zerodefect
September 19, 2010, 09:55 PM
I change a few springs in certain types of guns every 1000. But 1000 is hardly much at all.

10,000 is an impressive #.

Onward Allusion
September 19, 2010, 11:05 PM
LMAO - I guess I should just throw away ALL of my 59XX's along with ALL of my .22LR's. Like you'd said - I wouldn't start trusting a semi auto until it had 500 rounds through it. Hell, even a lowly Hi-Point doesn't break-in until a few hundred rounds have gone through it.

Kingofthehill (http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=100418)
What do you consider "A lot of rounds"
I get this email today about a gun i am selling (Didn't happen here).

Quote:
hi my name is XXXX and i have been looking at all kinds of springfields. it seems like alot of rounds have been down the barrel but i know how reliable they are. if you are willing to come down on the price, BLAH BLAH BLAH.
The Pistol in question is a Springfield XD-45. It has 1,320 exactly down the pipe (I keep notes and store on an excel spreadsheet).

So, what is a lot to you? IMO 500 is the bare minimum i would even start to trust the pistol with my life on. 1,000 rds is where i feel most triggers show their true colors.

With modern pistols going tens of thousands of rounds before real wear and tare, who is telling these people 1k is a lot?

sniper5
September 19, 2010, 11:36 PM
For some high end competitive shooters 1300 rounds is about a day and a half of practice.

Birdmang
September 19, 2010, 11:37 PM
Every answer will be relative to the shooter's interest/dedication/money to shooting and his pocketbook.

JEB
September 19, 2010, 11:54 PM
as far as affecting the value? 1,320 rounds is nothing at all. ive done that in a day with some of my .22s

evan price
September 20, 2010, 01:05 AM
Tell him that since it's ONLY 1320 rounds, you're raising the price. Maybe he'll get the message.

gofastman
September 20, 2010, 01:11 AM
over 10,000

1SOW
September 20, 2010, 01:19 AM
My CZ75B was juuust getting broken in at about 1300rds. My CZ has somewhere around 20-25000 rds and shoots waay better than NIB.

You might respond that normally you would charge for breaking in and ops-checking a new gun--let's see, 10 cents/round plus gas to the range and range fees, oh yeh, cleaning supplies too.

Tecolote
September 20, 2010, 01:23 AM
If I'm buying a used pistol I prefer under 500 rounds fired, but rounds aren't as important as care and maintenance. I prefer a well cared for pistol with 1000 rounds to a neglected beater with 100 rounds.

possum
September 20, 2010, 11:52 AM
i currently have over 17,500rds through my xd service model .40 and that is no where near (to me) alot of rounds. especially in something as reliable and long lasting as a glock 19,17, m&p's and the xd series. even if you bought one of the above with that many rounds through it, if you ever had a problem the company would take care of you. glock and sa i know for sure from first hand.

vikinggirl
September 20, 2010, 12:58 PM
"a lot of rounds" is different depending on if you are just at the range, or stopping a bad guy. (zombies might take a few more!)

:)

The Lone Haranguer
September 20, 2010, 05:54 PM
Five thousand, to me, is the threshold where round count starts to be "a lot."

jon_in_wv
September 20, 2010, 06:29 PM
My personal M&P 9C has surpassed the 5000 round mark and I plan to shoot it a lot more. The only problems I have encountered are a weak slide stop spring (which began locking the slide back with one round in the mag at around the 5000 round mark) and a worn mag catch (which I just replaced today). Other than that I have had a total of TWO failures in all those rounds. As far as it having, "a lot of rounds" it sure doesn't show it. It still looks very much like new and it still shoots like new. If I were to buy a handgun like mine I would feel better replacing a few springs and giving the internals a good look over but other than that I would have total confidence in it.

ScratchnDent
September 21, 2010, 01:04 AM
I sold my XD45, with just over 10k rounds through it, to a friend who carries it every day as a duty pistol and has put probably another 5k through it since. He trusts his life to it every day, and I'd have no qualms about buying it back and trusting my own life to it again.

jackpinesavages
September 21, 2010, 04:00 PM
30,000+ is A LOT of rounds, but nothing a fresh barrel and spring can't remedy.

Mudinyeri
September 21, 2010, 04:43 PM
A "lot of rounds" varies by the shooter and the gun. If you were selling a Kel-Tec PF9 with 1300 rounds through it, that's one thing. An XD with 1300 rounds through it is another.

With that said, the flip side of the coin is people who ask near MSRP for used guns regardless of the round count. If I'm buying a gun from someone I don't know, any number of rounds immediately brings a number of questions to mind. What type of rounds? Steel casings with polymer coatings? What are your gun cleaning habits? Did you "fiddle" with the gun? Do you have a clue as to what you're doing when you fiddle with a gun? How was the gun stored? Is there rust on it? You get the idea.

A lot of people (apparently) purchase new guns for near MSRP and then expect to get that back out of them after any number of rounds. A good percentage of those same people get all sphincter-pained when you ask questions like those above and make an offer that is less than their asking price.

I'm not saying the OP is one of those people, but there seem to be plenty of them around. :scrutiny:

fastbolt
September 21, 2010, 05:14 PM
This subject can be a bit difficult to address and there probably isn't a definitive answer that's going to satisfy everyone.

First of all, when you think about the 'average' firearm owner, it probably doesn't include folks who belong to internet firearm enthusiast forums. It's not exactly uncommon to hear how a surprising number of folks who own handguns probably still own the same original box of ammunition they bought when the gun was brand new, and there's still rounds remaining in it. ;)

I once heard someone from a firearm company comment that marketing research indicated that the average handgun owner might not fire 500 rounds through their handgun during the entire time they owned it, meaning over the course of many years.

I have a copy of a report from a fed agency discussing testing of some service-type pistols back in the late 80's. In it is a statement that the average number of rounds estimated to be fired for training in the M9 at that time was 80 rounds per year. Also, a couple of the pistols with alloy frames being produced to meet military specifications for service life back then experienced cracked frames at 10,000 rounds (or less), but that wasn't considered unacceptable for military needs.

Now, as a firearms instructor and armorer I've had my fair share of opportunity to probably shoot more rounds than the typical non-competitive owner/shooter. I fired an estimated 45+K rounds through a single aluminum alloy framed compact I carried as an issued weapon for only a few years. I've fired many thousands of rounds through a number of other issued pistols, too.

I try to spread out the use among my personally-owned pistols. It helps reduce the wear & tear on my various guns, as well as helping keep me current with the different models I typically carry and shoot. I keep approx round counts for preventive maintenance purpose and I presently have 3 small guns which have seen in excess of 10K rounds fired through them. I've replaced some parts in them as recommended by the makers for reason of expected wear & tear of what's considered replaceable wear parts, and other parts whenever I've seen them exhibit indications that a parts replacement was in order. I don't consider any of those guns to be significantly worn out or anywhere near the end of their service lives. ;)

I have some other pistols and revolvers which have seen even more usage over the years, too.

As long as a pistol is being properly maintained, meaning being kept clean, free of debris & contaminants and kept properly lubricated, I don't look at a gun being fired 1-2K rounds as being a "lot of rounds".

Now, if the gun had been abused and not properly maintained, and some accelerated wear, damage or even parts breakage might have resulted ... then even a relatively low round count might become a problem. Just depends.

Then, there are some pistols on the market which seemingly aren't intended to be fired as much as others.

It's still just a machine, you know.

ny32182
September 21, 2010, 05:40 PM
Properly cared for pistol (as in, not stored underwater, etc) with 1300rds is still almost LNIB as far as I'm concerned. To me that is just enough to sort out whether there are really any issues with it and be broken in.

5-10k is where I might start to expect a real price break vs the average LNIB or a "broken in" (~1300rd) example. Why? No particular reason other than that is somewhere ballpark where some preventative maintenance in terms of springs and whatnot might be in order, the finish is likely to be a little more worn, the major parts may be a little more beat up if there was a steady diet of +P run, etc. But I would still purchase one with this round count or more if a good history can be given and it is in good shape, etc, and the price is right.

Probably one or both of the following going on:

1) Shopper knows better and is just saying anything to get the price down, or, more likely:

2) To the *average* gun owner, 1300 rounds is a lot. Apart from my shooter buddies, other people I know who own guns will likely NEVER put that amount through in their lifetime. Just off the top of my head, in the last 7 years or so I have helped three different non-shooter friends buy their first and only pistol. I would say with a high degree of confidence that all three of those pistols combined have well under 1300 rounds through them. They are purchased, taken to the range to shoot a hundred rounds, and then reside in a shoebox in the closet for eternity. That is just what the "average" gun owner does, and they assume everyone does the same.

Hurricane
September 21, 2010, 06:05 PM
In general, for me, it depends on what we're actually talking about. In your case, I hardly think that is a lot. I would akin it to a new car with 1500 miles on it.

If you were talking a large magnum rifle, or even a magnum handgun, I would think that were a lot.

If it were an AR or AK or something to that effect, I would think it's just getting worn in.

It's what they are meant to do, I don't understand why people wish to put as few rounds as possible. What's wrong with a new barrel? Hell, that is exciting!

General Geoff
September 21, 2010, 06:09 PM
For a full size service pistol, it's nothing.

For a micro-sized pocket pistol, it's quite a few, since they tend to go through recoil springs fairly quickly, and beat themselves up from lack of mass to absorb recoil.

1320 rounds is nothing for, say, a 5" 1911.
1320 rounds in a Ruger LCP, however, could be considered a lot.

Rico567
September 21, 2010, 06:12 PM
This thread is finally getting to the point- the number of rounds fired is pretty relative. To some people, a couple of boxes a year are a lot....although, I expect, to none of the members of this forum.

When buying used guns, there might be things far, far more important than a few thousand rounds (which is inconsequential in any quality pistol, all that's been done is a good break-in).

What any buyer of used guns should be watchful for is in the "fiddling" category. The shooting group to which I belong has two members who are notorious for getting together to "improve" their pistols. Neither has any training or much information, but they have worked on such critical parts as trigger components and sears. The more they meddle, the more FTFs and other problems they have. Just listening to their conversations is enough to make one cringe. If I were offered a gun by either of those guys, and at any price, I would politely decline....but I suspect that some poor soul will end up with some of those guns, one day.

Ragnar Danneskjold
September 21, 2010, 07:24 PM
I've found that "Do you think 1000 rounds is a lot of ammo?" is a pretty good litmus test of whether someone is a serious shooter or not.

So someone can't be a serious shooter if they happen to be say, a college student without a sack of retirement cash to blow on ammo or reloading parts?

I'd like to consider myself a more serious shooter than a lot of people. I'm in the military, I take pistol and carbine courses, I go to the range as often as I can afford it. I shoot a lot of .22 because it's cheap practice. But 1,000 rounds for anything other than .22 is the high end for me. I just don't have loads of disposable income to blow on recreational shooting like a lot of the older retired guys on these forums. I guess that means I'm not a serious shooter.

fastbolt
September 21, 2010, 08:02 PM
I wouldn't be so quick to judge whether someone is a serious shooter simply based upon the number of rounds sent downrange.

I've seen folks burn a lot of rounds downrange without correcting problems, make much effort at developing their skillset or even realizing that they needed improvement.

I'd rather see someone take the time and focus on shooting a just a box of ammunition, all the while learning good skillsets and then emphasizing continuing to develop and use the proper skills, than see someone blow off 500 rounds a month and only get "better" at doing things wrong.

chieftain
September 21, 2010, 08:49 PM
The question was, what do we consider a lot of rounds?

50,000+ rounds, is a lot of rounds.

25,000+ is a lot of rounds but not to some folks. (think High speed, low drag types, and world class competition shooters.)

I am down to only shooting 8-10 thousand rounds a year now because of my health. I don't consider that a lot of rounds.

As to "Serious Shooters". I believe only a fool will try to figure out what another man is thinking, or believe he can. I judge and measure all folks by their actions, in context, remembering that no one is perfect. It IS important to judge people on their actions, in fact to survive as individual's and society, we must.

My application of the "seriousness" of the shooter is in how many different training and shooting venue's does the shooter participate in, of course subject to his resources, time and such.

Also not to be ignored is real life risk factors in the shooters day to day life i.e. A Marine rifleman in Afghanistan or Police SWAT team member in Albuquerque vs an Engineer working for Boeing in Seattle or a student in school at Ann Arbor. Yes it matters.

To some it's just the Beer to round count ratio.

Go figure.

Fred

Jeff H
September 21, 2010, 10:11 PM
I have my late Dad's 38 in the safe. When I aquired it, the gun was with a 1/2 empty box of ammo that he bought with the gun. Some people aren't shooters so they don't understand high ammo counts.

I just put 250ish rounds through a 1911 and a SR9 just a couple days ago and that was a mild day at the range.

joepav
September 22, 2010, 05:58 AM
My dad has a Colt Commander that he bought about 15 years ago. He has never shot it, 500 rounds is prob. alot to him. I have to take it apart from time to time just to make sure it dosen't rust.

For me I wouldn't worry when buying a gun with 1,200 rounds threw it.

Stasher1
September 22, 2010, 02:01 PM
What any buyer of used guns should be watchful for is in the "fiddling" category....

My thoughts exactly. I would much rather buy an all-stock handgun with 2500+ rounds through it than a nearly new Glock with all of the latest whiz-bang titanium goodies installed by your typical ham-fisted kitchen table "gunsmith".

straitnate14
September 22, 2010, 02:16 PM
I have shot right around 2500 through my XD 45, I know so because I have 2000 empty boxes worth of Missouri Bullet Company 230rn laying around and I know I out about 500 worth of store bought ammo before I learned how to reload, The trigger is much crisper than it was when I bought it and it still shoots better than I do.

Russ Jackson
September 22, 2010, 02:19 PM
There should be no meaningful wear at 20,000 rounds. That gun is just over some manufactures breakin number. Isn't Kimber at 500 or 1000 rounds recommended? Better question is how accurate is it?...Russ

TuckerNielson
September 22, 2010, 02:29 PM
It has been often said that there are 'Shooters' and then there are 'Gun Owners'. I definitely belong to the latter group, but I'm working hard to become a shooter. I own an XDm 9mm (purchased new) with ~9000 rounds through it. I rarely go to the range and shoot less than 300 rounds. I also own a S&W 625 of Jerry Miculek fame and it has about 3000 rounds through it. Both guns are virtually brand new (they are my range queens) and have zero failures. I will consider replacing the spring on my XDm after 10,000 rounds, but it probably won't be necessary as I've had no problems thus far. I would have no problems purchasing a gun treated well with over 10,000 rounds. I purchased a Glock with over 20,000 rounds through it and use it as my daily carry; I have no problem trusting my life to that gun.

my two cents

oldbanjo
September 22, 2010, 03:04 PM
I would consider the gun broke in with a 1000 rounds having been fired. I'm saying a good brand name gun, not some of the junk that I see today. I don't believe some of the guns that are being sold today will shot 1000 rounds. In three months I probably shot 1600 rounds thru my Gamo pellet rifle.

Sheepdog1968
September 22, 2010, 04:48 PM
The reality is that many many firearms out there don't get 1000 rounds through them. To me, this means you can get basically an unfired pistol for steep discount. I've got some Sigs that have 10,000 and 6,000 rounds through them. Both are in great shape. I don't think the 1300 or so rounds through yours is much and it wouldn't stop me from buying it if you were asking fair market value for it and I wanted it. My expectation is that most pistols should be capable of at least 100,000 rounds through them with routine prevenative maintenace performed. It wouldn't surprise me if you could get two or three times that round count through them. I should be so luck to be able to afford the ammo to shoot that many rounds and find the time to do it. Also, if it wore out, I would happily go out and buy another one and put the worn out one on "display".

P30shtr
September 22, 2010, 08:11 PM
I get this email today about a gun i am selling (Didn't happen here).

Quote:
hi my name is XXXX and i have been looking at all kinds of springfields. it seems like alot of rounds have been down the barrel but i know how reliable they are. if you are willing to come down on the price, BLAH BLAH BLAH.
The Pistol in question is a Springfield XD-45. It has 1,320 exactly down the pipe (I keep notes and store on an excel spreadsheet).

So, what is a lot to you? IMO 500 is the bare minimum i would even start to trust the pistol with my life on. 1,000 rds is where i feel most triggers show their true colors.

With modern pistols going tens of thousands of rounds before real wear and tare, who is telling these people 1k is a lot?

The guy is an idiot. Either that or he's talking **** to try to get you to come down in price, nothing more. And "whats alot of rounds"
25,000 I guess would be a good round # with a modern day handgun like any Glock, H&K, XD, whatever else floats your boat. 1,320 or a quarter mile for those cars guys is NOTHING, just gettin warmed up

varoadking
September 22, 2010, 08:34 PM
1000+ is often a range session for many shooters.

Many? I think not...

wally
September 22, 2010, 09:28 PM
Quote:
1000+ is often a range session for many shooters.
Many? I think not...

Not out of a single gun -- I don't have enough mags :), but its pretty easy for me to bring six pistols and run 200 rounds through each at the plate rack.

I'll often run 280-350 rounds (four or five boxes) of cheap corrosive surplus through my 7.62x25 Tokarov. Since I've got to clean it afterwards, it gets as many rounds as practical per session (I only have enough mags to load 152 rounds).

VBVAGUY
September 22, 2010, 09:35 PM
You should raise the price and he should *Thank you* for breaking it in for him. God Bless :)

P30shtr
September 22, 2010, 10:18 PM
I fired an estimated 45+K rounds through a single aluminum alloy framed compact I carried as an issued weapon for only a few years. I've fired many thousands of rounds through a number of other issued pistols, too.- Fastbolt

How did said firearm fair? Care to disclose make/model (sigs my guess), if not, thats fine. What upkeep/maintenance did you do or did it require ?

P30shtr
September 22, 2010, 10:19 PM
I fired an estimated 45+K rounds through a single aluminum alloy framed compact I carried as an issued weapon for only a few years. I've fired many thousands of rounds through a number of other issued pistols, too.- Fastbolt

How did said firearm fair? Care to disclose make/model (sigs my guess), if not, thats fine. What upkeep/maintenance did you do or did it require ?

P30shtr
September 22, 2010, 10:21 PM
MODS please delete double post, thanks

vanfunk
September 23, 2010, 06:29 AM
I have a Remington-Rand 1911A1 with well over 100,000 rounds fired from it. The only stoppage was when the tip of the firing pin broke off around round 87,000. An $8 USGI firing pin later and it was back in action. I consider it broken in, and reliable enough for defensive use. :)

vanfunk

millertyme
September 23, 2010, 04:41 PM
I had the same thing come up when I sold my P95. I reported about 350 rounds down the pipe and some fool emails me saying that's a bit excessive. I don't think you're even familiar with a gun at 350. Right now my greatest regret concerning my firearms is that I've personally only fired about 300 rounds through my CZ. Second to that is that I've only put 60 down the barrel of my AR. Fortunately I knew the guy I bought my CZ from and he put a few thousand down the pipe. My AR is new so it hasn't even begun to shine.

fastbolt
September 23, 2010, 05:15 PM
P30shtr, the gun was an early production 6906.

I did have to replace some parts along the way, like the extractor, which exhibited some chipping on the hook at about 12K, but hadn't yet started to exhibit any problems. I replaced it anyway because of the chipping. I replaced the recoil & mag springs periodically, and some other minor parts for preventive maintenance (old ejector with a newer, revised one, some springs & plungers, etc).

At one point quite a bit later I decided to replace the slide because of what might have been a machining issue in the extractor recess area after discussing it with the factory. I tried another slide which fit within proper tolerance with the existing barrel on the original frame, and ran that one for many thousand more rounds.

The frame was still serviceable when I finally decided to pull it and take it out of service, although the camming lugs were starting to show a lot of wear. The frames rails were still fine, but then I never shoot the gun dry, either. (I've seen some aluminum alloy frames which experienced some nasty accelerated wear because of insufficient lubrication, too.)

I could probably have safely left the 6906 in service longer, since it was functioning fine and passed all normal bench & live-fire checks, but since it was also my daily duty weapon I decided that it had served its purpose well enough and it was time to replace it with another early production 6906. I ran that one for only several thousand rounds before we started replacing our aging inventory with new guns (TSW's) and I had to turn it in.

I remember when I was talking to a tech at the factory and mentioned how many rounds I'd run through that one 6906. He chuckled and said that back when those early 3rd gen guns were being produced they'd never expected anyone to shoot one that much.

There's another retired cop on a couple of the forums who worked for an agency that used S&W aluminum framed 9's and 115gr +P+ loads for many years. I remember him mentioning that he knew a retired instructor who had run something like 59K rounds of the 115gr +P+ loads through his issued aluminum S&W before retiring and taking the gun with him, and that he was still shooting it (and maintaining it well, apparently).

Naturally, I'd not expect all aluminum guns to demonstrate that sort of service life expectancy. As a matter of fact, I remember returning an original 3913TSW to the factory because of a short crack in the front of the dustcover (which the owner thought was a scratch for the longest time). The gun never exhibited any functioning issues, and it was only discovered because he brought it to me for an inspection and I checked it out under the magnifying lamp. I was surprised when it turned out to a crack and not a scratch, since it was an odd place for it to occur. The factory was puzzled by it, as well, but cheerfully replaced the gun with a new one. As near as the owner could determine, he'd only fired between 12-15K rounds through it (a mix of standard pressure, +P & +P+ loads), and he claimed to have replaced the recoil spring periodically (since I gave him the springs).

Sometimes things just happen.

I have a copy of a report from the late 80's where a fed agency tested a number of the current pistols available for use at that time. The aluminum frames guns of that day could experienced cracked frames as soon as 10K rounds. One of the comments in the report was from one of the gun companies, and it basically said that if LE wanted aluminum framed guns which would exceed the military service life expectancies, that they should request them and not be surprised when guns made to military specs might not last as long as might be desired by LE users. In subsequent years (after that test report) guns from at least a couple of the makers of guns tested made improvements to their models for LE users.

The bottom line to the report was pretty much that steel guns could be expected to last longer than aluminum guns (although slides & barrels were considered replaceable parts over the long term when 80-100K rounds were being fired). No surprise.

How much longer they might last might become a moot point considering how few rounds the actual average private user really shoots, though. ;)

Just my thoughts.

TonyAngel
September 23, 2010, 05:43 PM
As has been said, it depends on the firearm. If we were talking about a Keltec, 1300 rounds may represent 1/10 of the guns lifespan. Apparently with a Beretta it would be about 1/30 or 1/40 of the guns lifespan. With a Glock, 1911, Kahr, Springfield and many others, I wouldn't consider it a lot at all. My son and I put that many rounds through our XD about every trip to the range.

Personally, I usually don't worry too much about what the claimed round count is. If you don't know how to spot trouble in a deal buying a used gun, you shouldn't be buying a used gun. I usually look for wear and tear. Regular maintenance, or the lack thereof.

I do, however, have a general rule of thumb that I pretty much abide by when buying a used handgun of average price ($500 - $800). If I can get a new one for within $100 of the price of the used one, I'll just buy a new one. I don't care if it's never been fired. I'm willing to pay $100 for the piece of mind that comes with knowing that I don't have to worry about whether or not I missed something and the gun won't run. I'll have the warranty. Now, if I can get a $500 gun for $300 or an $800 gun for $500 or $600, then I'll look it over and if all is good, I'll jump on it. The better the deal, the more of a risk I'm willing to take.

With an XD, I'd buy one used, with 1300 rounds through it, if it was in good shape and I could get it for around $125 less than I can get one new.

raz-0
September 23, 2010, 06:19 PM
A lot of rounds?

Definitely different for a pistol vs. rifle, etc. I'm focusing on pistols.

From my perspective, there's a round count where the odds of it being like new are minimal, the round count where I won't buy it without being able to see it and handle it in person, and the round count where I expect a significant discount unless work has been done on the gun.

For most guns, you shouldn't need anything other than a few decent pics to judge it's condition with an honest round count that is 50% or less of the recommended service interval on the recoil spring. The only real wear and tear will be external from handling.

Once you go over the service interval on the recoil spring, I'd LIKE to see it in person. By that round count, stupid things could have been done, and QC in general form the factory is variable enough that it may or may not need some TLC. But given enough desirables and my intended use for the gun, I might bite, and I probably wouldn't expect a break on price over a lightly used gun.

Once you pass about 20,000 rounds I NEED to see the gun in person. although plenty of guns will remain serviceable for a lot longer than that, you are well into the service life of a number of components, and it likely will need some TLC that costs something and I'm factoring that into the offering price.

After the 50,000 round mark, if you haven't had the TLC put in to fix things like slide to frame fit, worn components, new barrel, etc and spent your money proving it's salvageable to something useful, I probably won't be interested unless it's REAL cheap. Like less than a new naked frame cheap.

788Ham
September 24, 2010, 02:07 PM
Maybe he considers the two boxes of 50 rounds he will buy a "lot of ammo"! If you've put that many rounds down range, its because you like to shoot it, possibly he won't enjoy it as much as you do!! LOL

gunzee
September 24, 2010, 02:29 PM
using all the mags I'd carry in it, and if I've used that many of a given bullet profile and velocity, then a magful of a similar load is enough. Trigger pulls don't mean a thing in combat, only in nonrealistic matches. When you are being shot at, at handgun type ranges, your pucker factor will render you unable to notice trigger differences. In fact, you will most likely miss the chest, repeatedly, at a mere 20 ft of range.

chieftain
September 25, 2010, 12:02 AM
Trigger pulls don't mean a thing in combat, only in nonrealistic matches.

I disagree with this statement vehemently.

I do not believe anyone should use a trigger weight of less than 5 lbs for fighting purposes. Some folks will go to 4 lbs, but not me.

Far to many folks carry a dangerously light triggers, "Because I shoot it better". Yup and when that adrenalin dump hits will you be able to keep your finger off that light trigger? Based on my experience, which is substantial the answer is "NO"!

Many of these same folks argue that it is the loss of fine motor skills is why they grab the slide to drop that slide to chamber a round. I don't agree but nothing wrong with it if that is how you learned and trained. The trigger weight is much more critical and to light a trigger pull will get you in a lot more trouble than chambering a round, in a firefight, and often has.

Simply amazing.

Go figure.

Fred

Redneck with a 40
September 25, 2010, 02:42 PM
My XD is pushing 4000 rounds, 1320 is nothing.

WillDe83
September 25, 2010, 02:55 PM
I have a Remington-Rand 1911A1 with well over 100,000 rounds fired from it. The only stoppage was when the tip of the firing pin broke off around round 87,000. An $8 USGI firing pin later and it was back in action. I consider it broken in, and reliable enough for defensive use. :)

vanfunk
I dont know, might want to put a few more thousand through it before you carry it,:neener:

I would consider anything over 10,000 a lot.

Jim K
September 25, 2010, 07:24 PM
I think if I were evaluating a pistol I would want to know more than round count. If, say, the gun went 5000 rounds, was that without any failure of any type or was that with a jam, misfire or failure to eject every 5 rounds? I would rather trust a gun that went 200 rounds with no problems than one that went 10k with nothing but trouble.

Most people thinking of buying a used gun want to know one thing - why is it being sold? Some folks just want something new and have to get rid of a good gun to afford it. Others are getting rid of a jamomatic that has been nothing but trouble.

Jim

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