selling private party


September 19, 2010, 02:40 PM
Well with everything that is going on in the world do you still sell private party face to face or what ever you want to call it? I came across where I had a coworker want to buy a pistol off of me but he did not want to go through a ffl so did not sell. At first i felt like kind of a jerk but the more i thought of it i did not feel bad but felt good why would anyone ever object to go through a ffl if there is nothing to hide. I dont think it was the fee i was willing to pay the ffl fee.

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September 19, 2010, 02:45 PM
If you were willing to pay the fee and he balked I'd be nervous.

No way am I risking any legal problems. FFL every time for me.

September 19, 2010, 02:48 PM
why would anyone ever object to go through a ffl if there is nothing to hide.

Because they wanted a firearm that was off paper I sold one and bought several firearms FTF no FFL no paper no record anywhere that I own the gun

September 19, 2010, 02:56 PM
I'd sell through a dealer if the buyer insisted and paid the fees (and extra for my time), but I've never encountered one.

As a buyer, I have zero interest in going through a FFL - hassle, paperwork, and the fun of a delay if I don't bother with the CWL.

Now that I think about it probably wouldn't bother for selling either - if I'm not comfortable selling them the gun, doesn't matter if the Pope is the middleman.

September 19, 2010, 03:11 PM
Many folks who are clean enough to buy from an FFL want off-paper firearms. I might well sell FTF to an individual I reasonably believed to be clean, but I will tell them that I will not lie to a federal investigator, as I am a very poor liar, and very afraid of federal courts. (No canoe-trip mishap stories from me!) In actual practice, my recent FTF deals have been with fellow LEOs. Otherwise, I have dealt with FFLs since at least the early 1990's.

September 19, 2010, 03:28 PM
I allways do a bill of sale either when buying or selling. If they have a problem {and it has happened} then I don't buy or sell. If they want to go FFL then it's on their dollar not mine. Do not see ant reason to pay someone $50 for transfer. If I buy on auction on line I have no problem paying the FFl to recieve for me.

September 19, 2010, 03:34 PM
No ffl for ftf sales of private property. I don't go through a hardware store to sell a hammer either...

September 19, 2010, 04:50 PM
I should go into more detail I live in IL and it is not necessary to go through a FFL but with the way IL is I feel safer myself if something were to happen I have a little more prof that I did infact sell the gun and it is no longer in my position. As i did not him that well the store I work at employes a hair under 400 people I just cant have time to know them all I felt better going through the FFL and its only $25. I do have friends I would sell to no problem but just did not feel like everything was right with this one. Maby I will just stop selling and just horde them all from now on even the ones i have more then one of the same kind.

September 19, 2010, 05:03 PM
Since there are no legal prohibitions against it in my state, I buy and sell guns all the time via FTF deals.

This topic comes up frequently here, and I have yet to see any legal problems with my doing FTF deals so long as I follow Federal and State law and make every reasonable effort to not sell a firearm to a prohibited person.

September 19, 2010, 05:13 PM
If I had a hinky feeling as you obviously did I'd be going the FFL route, but I've never had that feeling when I've sold. And I've sold/traded/bought face to face more times than I care to remember. I have never not sold, but I have not taken in a gun due to that hinky feeling. Who knows if I was being overly cautious or not, but I've never been in the gray bar motel for buying a stolen gun either. :D

Cap'n Jack Burntbeard
September 19, 2010, 06:37 PM
Anything is for sale, at the right price.:D
If a potential buyer looks less than reputable, the no I would not sell.
The way I see it, if I do my part to arm one more person, then I have done my good deed for the day.
For only the armed are truly free.

September 19, 2010, 06:58 PM
No problems with FTF for me. However, since I am licensed as an 03FFL, if I'm dealing with a C&R gun I'm required to log the other party's information. If they don't like it, well, the want ads are full of guns these days.

M2 Carbine
September 19, 2010, 09:12 PM
I've been selling and buying guns FTF since the late 1950's. I see no reason to stop now.

In TX you swap the gun and money and walk away.

I got this beauty and several more at the gun show in the last couple months.
I have no idea who the seller was and they sure don't know me.
And that's the way I like it.:)

September 19, 2010, 09:29 PM
I always sell to people I know....prolly 50-60 times without ever selling to anyone I didn't know.

I bought one of my AR's this year off a deputy FTF...he didn't seem to have any problems with the sale.

September 19, 2010, 09:30 PM

The original poster (sorta) asked: "why would anyone ever object to go through a ffl if there is nothing to hide"? Alex, there is something to hide. As it sits, there is no Federal legal requirement to allow them to have a paper trail of every firearm transaction. What's more, there's no good reason to give them that trail that most of us non-coaster's can see. If you feel you need one to protect yourself, then I'd suggest you're selling to the wrong person.

As far as your co-worker goes, face him up & flat ask if he's got a felony criminal record or other legal reason that would prevent him from legitimally possessing the gun. Good grief, if need be, do it in front of a witness. But please, don't buy into the mindset that says that it has to be FFL because it's the right thing to do. Good intentions pave some damned road I believe.


September 20, 2010, 12:13 AM
FL is face to face but if you state your a felon or been in trouble it does not matter how bad i might need the money ,,, no sell and you will need to leave, if you don't believe me.
just ask the last guy that tried to by a gun then said he was on parole and then got lippy when i gave him his money back and HE said

DO WE NEED TO GET THE LAW INVOLVED. i said i guess we do.

short version HE GOT 8 more MONTHS IN COUNTY

crazy thing was he requested a bill of sale 1 for him 1 for me in his hand writing... what a DA

September 20, 2010, 12:33 AM
In post #8 the OP claims he lives in IL and is rightly worried about the anti-gun environment. However, as a gun owner in IL, he knows that every gun owner there has an FOID, Firearms Owner ID. The buyer would have to show him his FOID, a state issued ID that should constitute evidence that the buyer is not a felon and satisfies other state requirements for firearms ownership. Going through an FFL would be unnecessary. If he thinks the buyer is an undiagnosed nutcase, then hesitation to sell is commendable. But going through an FFL won't change that. I'm surprised someone from IL hasn't piped up. I'm from MO, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

Deus Machina
September 20, 2010, 02:13 AM
If you don't get a bad feeling and the guy isn't reluctant about providing any proof he's able to buy, it's all kosher.

Sold my first CC piece that way in a parking lot at a gun show. Have a rough description, he had a driver's license that I only checked to make sure he was a FL resident, and we both had friends along as witnesses. Nice guy, quick easy deal, never even got his name.

Gun and money trade places, hands are shaken, everyone has a nice day.

September 20, 2010, 06:49 AM
I have several friends who prefer to buy guns from private individuals over gun shops for ths very reason. They have nothing to hide, they just don't want to be in a system as a gun owner anymore than they have to. If I had a gun to sell would I sell to them, yes in a heartbeat. I also know that I would get first opportunity to buy it back if he does decide to sell anything that I sold him.

Full Metal Jacket
September 20, 2010, 07:14 AM
you need to consult an internet gun forum to decide if you should sell a gun legally or not? :eek:

September 20, 2010, 09:08 AM
I just go by my gut! If it screams use an FFL I do!

September 20, 2010, 10:13 AM
why would anyone ever object to go through a ffl if there is nothing to hide.

My criminal history is as clean as can be, but whenever possible I prefer to buy FTF, from a private party. There are several reasons for this, price; usually less, no paper work, and in NC the local sheriff must issue permits to purchase a handgun. In the county I live in they limit you to five (5) permits for a 5 or 10 year period (don’t remember which one). I don’t want to run out of permits, in case I find a super deal.
As for selling I’m good either way, FTF or FFL, but either as a buying or selling I require a bill of sale be filled out that both sign and I keep my copy. I will only make Arrangements to meet a buyer or seller in the parking lot of my bank. I also keep my .357 Magnum with me during all of the sales/buying process.

September 20, 2010, 10:22 AM
I will sell either way.

I honestly don't find any fault with people's logic no matter if they choose FFL only or no FFL ever.

Someone mentioned the weapon not being in your name if you buy it FTF or conserving the amount of pistol permits you get each year. I have my CHP, so here in NC I can buy as many in a year as I wish without applying for a permit to the local sheriff. Thanks to that CHP and past government contractual fingerprints are in databases everywhere so I see no reason to desire an "off paper" weapon. Maybe if uncle sam demands that we hand over all weapons registered to us I could see the desire to own one "off paper." But when that happens, there surely are a whole slew of firearms registered to me that I sold privately anyway.

September 20, 2010, 06:13 PM
Yes he did have a foid card but at the same time I just dont realy know something with him said to go with the FFL and if he wanted it as bad as he said he did he would of had no problem. I think the biggest thing with me was

1-I was not looking to sell he came to me after he heard me talking in the break room to a fried i had a few copys of several guns.

2-Price was ok but still could have done better on my side $500 for a almost new less the 500rds 90-two in 9mm

3-He realy did not care about CAL or any specs on the gun just wanted to buy a gun and for $500 that was the only one i was willing to part with for that price

thoes were just a few things that bothered me alittle 2 did not so much bother me as much as 1 and 3

September 20, 2010, 06:19 PM
If I'm buying or selling FTF in state then I would have no reason to involve a FFL.

Just One Shot
September 20, 2010, 06:22 PM
I prefer FTF but I try to deal with those that have a CC permit because I know that they had to go through a background check here in Ohio to get one.

If they're ok'd by the state to carry then they're ok to buy a gun FTF.

Jumping Frog
September 20, 2010, 09:24 PM
If I am selling there are two points that I cover.

First, I ask to see a driver's license from my state with their picture on it. They can cover their name and address with their thumb, I just want some reasonable due diligence that they are a state resident.

Second, I ask them if they are legally allowed to own a firearm or if they have any firearm disabilities. It is their job to know if they are disqualified, not my job to play 20 questions with them. If they tell my they are allowed to possess firearms, I'll take their statement at face value.

September 20, 2010, 09:53 PM
I have bought and sold several times FTF. Typically, the buyer here in Texas volunteers their CHL. I do take some precautions, such as meeting in a public place away from my home or theirs. I also ask for a description of their car. I get there early to see them drive up. If I get an uneasy feeling, I drive away.

I have sold a couple this way, and both times the buyer was cordial & clean cut. I have also sold at gunshows. A few months back, I was walking through the isle w/ a nagant carbine I paid $60 for 5 years ago. A guy at a table is waiving a $100 bill at me & pointing @ the nagant. Sold. I hand the rifle over the table, he hands me the $100. No papers, no permission from uncle sam required.

Freedom, dear friends, is a beautiful thing.

Defense Minister
September 20, 2010, 11:18 PM
I have sold many guns, always FTF with no FFL, and have never had a problem. I do, however, write a Bill of Sale in which I list the make, model, caliber, and serial # of the firearm, as well as the DL # and signature of both parties to the transfer. If the bill of sale is a problem for the buyer (and it never has been), then I will retain the firearm, and wait for another buyer. Consequently, most of the buyers have also desired the bill of sale because it protects them in the case that they buy a stolen gun from someone they don't know.

At the very least, when selling FTF, you have to verify that the person is a resident of your state. I have a rifle for sale locally right now, and the only two people who have shown an interest in it didn't want a paper trail, and live in California.:eek:

September 21, 2010, 12:44 AM
If I'm selling a handgun, I go thru the FFL or no deal. Long gun, I use the bill of sale on PAFOA with proper ID.

September 21, 2010, 11:00 AM
To all those who want to be "off the books"

I say buying recorded transactions makes you count. When the DoJ puts out statistics or the ATF puts out stats that lawmakers consider, why not stand up and be counted?

Not that I'd turn down a good deal in FTF, but I've no special desire to remain off the books.

If anything, letting the government know that there are TONS of guns in private hands would weigh heavily on lawmakers as they consider the electorate.

September 21, 2010, 11:02 AM
why not stand up and be counted? I do,every election at the polls.

September 21, 2010, 01:56 PM
why not stand up and be counted?Indeed (a/Auschwitz+evacuation+train+boarding.jpg)

September 21, 2010, 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by merlinfire
why not stand up and be counted?

Fear sells, but I'm not buying.

Based on your link, you compare having your transaction trackable to the Holocaust? Godwin's Law in motion.

September 21, 2010, 03:05 PM
Based on your link, you compare having your transaction trackable to the Holocaust? Godwin's Law in motion.Ah yes, internet memes to derogate.

I'd prefer my collection to not be countable by the government.

With private transactions, there are no 4473s to gather, should the laws change (or a presidential executive order be made for the purpose).

Erik M
September 21, 2010, 03:39 PM
i only trade to family and work colleges that I trust. One of the local shops will 'mediate' between 2 people for $25 +%10. (run a bg check and log it as them selling a traded in gun) Never done that but I assume it would be an option for selling to a shady person.

September 21, 2010, 04:02 PM
If I am selling there are two points that I cover.

1. Do you have the money ?

2. Do you want the gun ?

If you can answer yes to both those questions we have a sale

September 21, 2010, 07:23 PM
If I purchased the firearm on a 4473 or whatever they are now called, it's leaving on a 4473. I don't want to be the last one on the paper trail.

Years ago I had a close call, guy and his son worked with me, the son wanted to by a shotgun I had for sale, I wanted cash, kid would only pay with check so no deal. Kid later bought from a local dealer and found out the kid was a convicted felon recently out of prison. Sheriff went and retrieved the firearm.

I don't want to be a part of the paper trail, at least not the last one, of some crime scene firearm.

As far as keeping my name off of firearm transactions: I've been buying guns so long my name is in the big data base in the sky a ton of times, worrying about putting one more entry in the list is no real concern.

October 13, 2010, 07:41 PM
This is an interesting subject. I had a inexpensive .22 sitting around collecting dust and an acquittance asked if I had any guns I could sell him. The only one I was interested in getting rid of was the .22, so I offered it to him cheap. He had never owned a gun, did not know how to handle one, nor even held one before. So I offered to give a quick safety and break down lesson at the time of the sale.
When we got together with the gun he started to get very excited, well beyond what was normal for his personality. He also started to ask strange questions with a weird glint in his eye. He was all ready to hand over the cash when I started to ask more questions. Before I knew it he was ranting about "all the bad drivers and now that he owned a gun he was not going to take any more crap on the road". :eek:
I was taken aback and told him a gun is for defensive purposes only, not to go on some road rage spree. He gave me a dismissive "yeah sure", so I told him he was not the type of person who should really be a gun owner. Needless to say I still have that paperweight because there is no way I was going to read about someone who was killed because I armed this wacko.

So while I will sell FTF, I certainly try to guage if the person has a screw loose before potentially arming them.

October 13, 2010, 08:28 PM
The more people become accustomed to background checks and feeling uneasy about doing a perfectly legal FTF sales the freedom to do so will disappear.

Are you running a background check for piece of mind? Legally nothing can happen to you for doing a FTF sale with a felon unless you knew that person was a felon(in my state). Just remember Felons aren't the only people who could commit a crime with your gun and if you are that concerned about what someone might do with something you no longer own then don't sell.

I don't care for more intrusion in my life than is necessary. I have nothing to hide and don't particularly care about owning a gun off the grid but its one of the freedoms we enjoy in my state and I choose to practice/enjoy FTF sales.

I would require a bill of sale if I don't know you or if I feel uneasy about the deal but other than that I take the cash you take the gun.

October 13, 2010, 08:55 PM
I usually only sell to someone known to me to be of reputable character.

Mr M2Carbine: Wanna sell it?:)

October 13, 2010, 10:18 PM
If the buyer gives me bad vibes, he is NOT going to receive a firearm from me. As a firearms owner, it is MY responsibility not to place a firearm into the hands of someone who may do something stupid and compromise OUR 2nd Amendment Rights.

That being said, I prefer FTF.

October 13, 2010, 11:54 PM
letting the government know that there are TONS of guns in private hands would weigh heavily on lawmakers

They already know there are 'TONS' of guns, loose in the wild, in private hands, there is just something comforting about keeping those lawmakers guessing which private hands hold those wild guns.

October 14, 2010, 12:01 AM
requiring a CWP for a FTF sale falls under this same category. First you are using a CWP as a registration for someone to buy a firearm from you. I assume immediately that anyone who would require a CWP agrees with firearm registrations/permitting and firmer regulations. There are many reasons someone may not have a CWP.

I have a friend who simply is interested in defending his home and shooting at targets. So next time you sell a firearm try to remember that not everyone shares your views on CCW.

October 14, 2010, 12:04 AM
Obviously, you're bound by due diligence (and the law) not to sell to anyone you have reason to believe is a felon or other restricted person - so selling to someone with track marks up and down their arm, for instance, would be a no-no. A lot of us simply go one step further and refuse to sell to anyone who seems suspicious or "off" - why risk it? People lie, and some are exceedingly good at it.

When I sell a firearm FTF, I make up two copies of a bill of sale. Each copy is signed by both me and by the buyer. I require that they show me their driver's license, and I ask that they record their DL # on my copy of the bill of sale. I do the same for their copy. No muss, no fuss, and neither party feels exposed to a potentially bad deal.

I don't deal with people who will only sell to CCW holders (and there seem to be a lot of them in Utah). Overly paranoid and overly restrictive - they can keep their guns and I'll give my money to someone else.

October 15, 2010, 02:39 AM
why would anyone ever object to go through a ffl if there is nothing to hide.

Why would anyone ever object to gun registration if there is nothing to hide?

Why would anyone ever object to full body cavity searches if there is nothing to hide?

Why would anyone ever object to a repeal of the right to be secure in our personal belongings and papers if there is nothing to hide?

What would our country be like if our founding fathers had supplied the postlude to each entry in the Bill Of Rights "if there be nothing to hide?"

Bernie Lomax
October 15, 2010, 03:33 AM
Contrary to popular belief, it is not illegal to sell a firearm to someone who is a prohibited possessor. It is illegal to sell a firearm to someone who you know or have reasonable cause to believe is a prohibited possessor.

October 15, 2010, 07:41 AM
I do not want to be counted. I have a CCW card, there... I am counted. As far as my guns, all FTF except for some long guns. Cabelas gets some sweet deals on hard to find rifles.

October 15, 2010, 08:04 AM
Since Michigan requires a Permit to Purchase or a CPL (concealed pistol license) to purchase a handgun, I have no qualms at all about doing FTF. Why go to the extra expense of an FFL? I check D/L and we both complete the proper paper work (which is minimal) and we're on our way. For long guns, I check D/L for age or residency.

October 15, 2010, 08:22 AM
Sometimes having too much "knowledge" is a bad thing when selling to co-workers. I have often been present for their comments on guns and gun situations (real and made up) and as a result, sometimes I'm a little nervous about selling to coworkers and obeying the law regarding FTF firearm transfers. Real facts are important and trying to descriminate between fact and fiction is difficult if you know someone casually. But in general, I will sell either way. It just depends.

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