Why do people say "Don't carry a knife"?


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Boberama
September 20, 2010, 05:18 AM
"If you carry a knife you are more likely to become involved in a violent situation and get injured yourself."
It's a common warning, and I've heard it in novels, movies, on THR and other pro-cary websies, from martial artists, etc.

What? I wouldn't want to fight a guy with a knife, especially if I didn't have one myself. And why is it "less dangerous" to carry nothing, or a kubaton or pen?

Clear this up, please.

By the way my current carry is a 4" Pakistani Langioule knife with a corkscrew on the end. Picked it up for $5 at the Swap 'n' Shop. It says "Fighter Plus" on the blade.
http://cdn3.ioffer.com/img/item/104/502/309/c1vHSsvZrWmGpuA.jpg
No, I'm not joking.
I lost my Puma 4".:uhoh:

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BHP FAN
September 20, 2010, 05:46 AM
Go to Big Five sporting goods. There is usually a selection of good to decent folders for under $30.00.Save that one as a good tackle box/picnic lunch box knife with a handy corkskrew.If you're going to be wanting your knife quickly, which in an emergency of any kind [a rescue, a fight, what ever....] you may need to do, you'll probably want to be able to open it with a thumb stud.

Boberama
September 20, 2010, 06:00 AM
Why does the ad below say "Dial 911 and Die"?
Not a great message to send. Dial 911 if you can.

SleazyRider
September 20, 2010, 07:16 AM
I've always felt it was because if one is not proficient in the art of knife fighting, one could very easily become disarmed and the knife used against you. Although I carry a knife as a tool for everyday use, I would be loathe to use it as a weapon.

Also, it seems that knife law, state by state, is even more arcane and vague than firearms law. It's perfectly legal for me to carry my .44 magnum to the grocery store, but not my 3 1/2 inch assisted opener. Go figure.

oldbanjo
September 20, 2010, 07:40 AM
Everyone has an opinion but a knife is better than nothing. I ordered and gave the women that walked on this dirt road "Harold Stainless Steel Covered Ice Picks" I ordered them from Amazon . com. I ride my motorcycle and run my dogs on this road before they walk. I've ran several people out of this neighborhood that had no business here.

M-Cameron
September 20, 2010, 07:47 AM
"If you carry a knife you are more likely to become involved in a violent situation and get injured yourself."
It's a common warning, and I've heard it in novels, movies, on THR and other pro-cary websies, from martial artists, etc.

those are also the same people that say.... " gun owners are more likely to have their gun taken away and used against them"........its complete and utter bull crap

as for not being skilled enough to use one........unless you are fighting a world knife fighting grand master.....chances are pretty darn good that the other guy doesnt have any training either.

the fact is, theres really no reason NOT to carry a knife with you at all times.

hso
September 20, 2010, 09:13 AM
Clear this up, please.

There's no way to do that other than to say they're wrong. They're the same folks that tell women not to resist a rape to avoid being beaten. They believe resistance to violence only leads to worse injuries or death.

Knives or guns or sticks don't cause people to use them. People make a decision to or not.

It's very difficult to take a knife away from someone without getting cut so the argument that using a knife to defend yourself will only end up with the knife being taken away and used on you is absurd if you're willing to fight. The problem is when you're only willing to bluff.

shockwave
September 20, 2010, 10:04 AM
It's a huge mistake to think that if you have a knife, that you have to be skilled in some art called "knife fighting." Huge mistake.

Yes - there are specific knife-combat systems like kali and silat and others, and you can train and practice for that. However, the simplest way to use a knife for fighting is to simply hold it in your hand and make a fist and then fight normally, punching, kicking, etc. The only difference is that you're just holding a knife in your hand while you do it.

It is generally not a good idea to hold the knife out in front of you, as if it is the defensive device - it's not. You are the weapon and the knife is just along for the ride. Extra bonus points if you have some idea about what to do with it.

BRad704
September 20, 2010, 10:51 AM
fancy lookin knife, but is it legal to carry a 4" blade?

oldbanjo
September 20, 2010, 11:41 AM
One of my brothers took Karate classes and they had him convinced that he could win against someone with a knife. Like you said I kelp the knife folded and in my fist an eat him alive. He learned a lessen that day. He was marked up, I told him to show that to his teacher.

Black Toe Knives
September 20, 2010, 12:38 PM
fancy lookin knife, but is it legal to carry a 4" blade?
Not in TN.

TimboKhan
September 20, 2010, 01:11 PM
the knife being taken away and used on you is absurd if you're willing to fight. The problem is when you're only willing to bluff

It's a huge mistake to think that if you have a knife, that you have to be skilled in some art called "knife fighting." Huge mistake.

Two things I agree with completely. I am not a knife fighting supporter, in large part because I think a great many of the people that are are either vastly over-estimating their ability to fight with a knife and/or have illusions of grandeur as to the deadliness or scariness of that knife.

Shockwave is right. If you can't sort of figure out "stab" and "slash" on your own, don't carry a knife. Advanced training is certainly useful, but what it really boils down to is mindset and the willingness to act, which is what HSO was referring to talking about bluffing.

Look man, if you fight like a crazy person and don't mind getting covered in blood (your and your attackers, most likely) you will probably come out on top. People have this strange thing where they don't like getting cut once, let alone several times, and certainly not in the face or heart or genitals. If you take a trip through the winter of your soul, you are likely find that you simply cannot see yourself doing those things. I have skinned and butchered a lot of animals, and I personally am repulsed by the thought of opening a person up like that. I will do it if it is my absolute last resort, because I know for a fact that my "Them or Me" gene decidedly leans towards "Me", but I really, really never want to have to do that.

As such, I have never really carried or bought a knife specifically because of it's defensive qualities. As it turns out, many of my knives are capable in that regard, but it isn't a consideration for me.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
September 20, 2010, 01:34 PM
One of the main problems with fighting with a knife is the fact that when "slashed" most don't even know they are injured if they are in a hand to hand "conflict". Stabbed is a different thing but around 70% of knife fighting has to do with "slash" movements since "stabbing" motions tend to leave your weapon exposed and you in a vulnerable position if up against an opponent that has any knowledge about knife usage. Granted it is better than nothing in some instances but it is better to have at least some training with one or it could go against you. Most anyone with some martial arts background has been at least somewhat trained in defending against knives and while it can be used effectively, it is not a great choice for a weapon. I'll take a flip out baton any day over a knife. More range and when used properly, your attacker will have no question that he is in a fight. Not to mention you can disarm them easily with one. Broken bones tend to register more than a cut. Especially in the hand and wrist area.

oldbanjo
September 20, 2010, 02:00 PM
Thanks for mentioning that "flip out baton". I didn't know what they were called, Cheaper Than Dirt has them. I tackled a thief in 1964 and held him for the Police, I remember, that was like having a Tiger by the tail.

Rob_W
September 20, 2010, 02:06 PM
To me the problem is applicability in a legal sense. There are so many situations that do not justify lethal force, but scare the bejeezus out of you anyway. In the relatively rare remaining instances where lethal force is justified, so few lend themselves to what people think of as "knife fighting" that I just don't see it as worth the incremental risk and effort involved. Much of my opinion on the subject has been formed, codified, or confirmed by the content at http://nononsenseselfdefense.com which I highly recommend. It isn't what you think it is (technique or training) it is a very dense and informative website that focuses on the legal, ethical, and psychological issues of self defense. Many sacred cows are sacrificed there, be advised!

--RobW

BRad704
September 20, 2010, 02:34 PM
Thanks Jim, that's what I thought. I guess it is a state to state situation.

As for the OP, I have a knife on me everyday, (with a clip.... Jim.... haha) 1 small one on my keys, and 1 that stays in the stuff-tray in my cherokee...

I don't like being without a knife, for more than just defense...

Gunfighter123
September 20, 2010, 05:00 PM
Quote:
"If you carry a knife you are more likely to become involved in a violent situation and get injured yourself."
It's a common warning, and I've heard it in novels, movies, on THR and other pro-cary websies, from martial artists, etc.

those are also the same people that say.... " gun owners are more likely to have their gun taken away and used against them"........its complete and utter bull crap

as for not being skilled enough to use one........unless you are fighting a world knife fighting grand master.....chances are pretty darn good that the other guy doesnt have any training either.

the fact is, theres really no reason NOT to carry a knife with you at all times.



M and HSO said it the best ----- NO ONE that I personally know thinks it is a bad idea to carry somekind of knife on a daily basis. What kind of knife to carry is another story ---- just like hammers , there are sledgehammers , frameing , tack , claw etc. etc. ---- while you can use a 20lb. sledge to put a tack in drywall -- it is NOT the best "tool" for the job. Same thing with "knifes" ---- big , small , double edged , folding , etc. etc. --- there are hundreds of "styles" for bladed weapons ---- and some people will tell you NOT to carry a knife that says " Fighter Plus" etc. on it ---- they seem to think the DA will have a easy case against you because the jury will think you are "kill crazy" --------- I don't let that "stuff" bother me or influance what I carry.

You are either justified or not justified in useing ANY weapon for self-defense.

Boberama
September 20, 2010, 06:04 PM
fancy lookin knife, but is it legal to carry a 4" blade?

I don't think there are any laws about knives here. Just no butterflies or automatics. Or punch daggers.

It's pretty much up to the individual officer to decide what to do.

But-oh yeah-you can't carry one for self defense.

Mine's for , and this thread is for [I]informational purposes only.

British Columbia! Bah.

Boberama
September 20, 2010, 06:09 PM
I have skinned and butchered a lot of animals, and I personally am repulsed by the thought of opening a person up like that.

Try as I might, I can't bring myself to feel anything. As for the bluffing thing, I don't think I would bring it out unless I actually needed it. For cutting boxes, of course.

Is this a problem some of you have? I've never done anything like that, but I don't really have very much empathy, I guess.

Any thoughts?

zhyla
September 20, 2010, 07:33 PM
I have never heard anyone advocate not carrying knives. Sounds like something you'd hear in a gun shop. Especially if they wanted to sell you a gun.

Knives are an invaluable tool. I can't imagine being without one.

In my (unpleasant) dreams I occasionally have to fend some bad guy off. I seem to have no problem stabbing bad people. But when it came down to it I'd probably be to stunned to deploy a knife quickly enough.

As always, if you can run, run.

Valkman
September 20, 2010, 08:18 PM
I have never heard that either, for most of us a knife is an indespensible tool that we need to have with us.

Limeyfellow
September 20, 2010, 11:05 PM
This is nothing really new. The Victorians were bitching about people carrying knives and daggers around with them so we got the invention of flatware, because so one may use that nasty knife. They probably blamed it on spicy food encouraging masturbation that led to the inevitable murder. Victorians were really weird like that.

Texas Gun Person
September 20, 2010, 11:14 PM
Well first off... I don't carry a knife because I plan on using it to defend myself. A knife is a tool, and that is why I carry one.


Could they be used in such a way? Of course... a knife is a knife.
Would it be the best choice if something else is available? I don't think so.

SleazyRider
September 20, 2010, 11:19 PM
This is nothing really new. The Victorians were bitching about people carrying knives and daggers around with them so we got the invention of flatware, because so one may use that nasty knife. They probably blamed it on spicy food encouraging masturbation that led to the inevitable murder. Victorians were really weird like that.
I like spicy food ...

digsigs226
September 21, 2010, 12:04 AM
I'm Sorry but when I think of "knife combat" I instantly think of that scene in Saving Private Ryan where that big burly German plunges that combat knife into the American GI's throat. No thanks.

Sure my Flash I rides in my pocket all day... but it's just there as a useful tool. I probably wouldn't even think to use it in a fight. Too small anyways.

Bluehawk
September 21, 2010, 12:17 AM
I'm Sorry but when I think of "knife combat" I instantly think of that scene in Saving Private Ryan where that big burly German plunges that combat knife into the American GI's throat.

Are you referring to the knock down, drag out, on the floor, on the second floor, fight where the third soldier was writhing around after being shot in the throat? If so, the German didn't "plunge" it..he slowly pushed it into the soldiers abdomen...not his throat.
The baton the other gentleman asked about is normally called an ASP.

digsigs226
September 21, 2010, 12:27 AM
If so, the German didn't "plunge" it..he slowly pushed it into the soldiers abdomen...not his throat.


I stand corrected... but really no less gruesome IMO, which was the point I was trying to make.

JohnKSa
September 21, 2010, 01:34 AM
"If you carry a knife you are more likely to become involved in a violent situation and get injured yourself."I've never heard that particular caution and it doesn't make any sense to me. An inanimate object doesn't make a person more likely to get involved in a violent situation.

That said, Gary Kleck's study indicates that resisting a violent crime with a knife is typically not a particularly effective strategy for avoiding injury.

Resisting a robbery with a knife is one of the top 3 strategies most likely to result in an injury to the defender while using a gun to resist provides the best chance of escaping uninjured. The only two approaches to dealing with a robbery that offered more chance of injury to the defender (vs. defending with a knife) were physically resisting without a weapon or trying to frighten the attacker away and get help. Using any other weapon than a knife cut the defender's chances of being injured roughly in half.

In an assault, resisting with a knife is one of the top 4 strategies most likely to resut in an injury to the defender. Again, using a firearm to resist provides the best chance of escaping uninjured.

In either an assault or a robbery, no self-protection at all was a better strategy for remaining uninjured than resisting/defending with a knife. Dramatically so in the case of a robbery, only slightly so in the case of an assault.

http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/kleck.study.html

Before anyone goes crazy on me--I am NOT advocating compliance as a strategy, nor am I saying that people shouldn't use knives for self-defense. I'm just quoting some statistics pertinent to the discussion. I always have a knife or 3 on my person and typically at least one of them is suitable for use as a self-defense weapon.

BHP FAN
September 21, 2010, 02:00 AM
I am reminded of the scene in Zorro when Anthony Hopkins asks Antonio Banderas if he knows how to use a sword...and Banderas answers ''sure! you put the pointy end in the other fellow''....classic, that.

kBob
September 21, 2010, 10:20 AM
A review of some NIJ numbers a few years ago, I believe by Gary Kleck at Florida State, indicated that one of the reactions to a violent attack or threat of such to support other crime that was MOST likely to land you in the hospital or morge was to use a knife for self defense.

The numbers to support the supisition where there.

What the numbers do not show is what percentage of those injured or killed had any sort of training for fighting with a knife or any "martial Art" nor can it take into acount the detirmination of the person defending themself with a knife.

Slashes are notorious for being initially ignored....on the otherhand they may stop things right away maybe, sometimes and I believe in my case would beat nothing. THe chop is rather difficult to exicute with a pocket folder though can reach some big blood vessels even if crushing or cutting bone with a folder is not likely. I agree that "give'em the point" is most likely to stop a bad guy. On the otherhand it still might well not stop a bad guy's bad ness be fore he does unto you before he is done doing. Remember when you are close enough to use a knife they are close enough to do bad things to you.

I do carry a folder that can be opened one handed, as a daily used tool. If I felt it was the only or best way to prevent harm to myself or family right then I would try to use it if nothing else better were available.

I think the problem for many folks with carrying a knife for defense is the same as with carrying ANY weapon for self defense. They begin to think only interms of that weapon and begin to fixate on using that weapon rather than seeing the whole problem and perhaps better alturnatives of action or weapons. The knife in this case becomes sort of a majic wand in the mind of the one carrying it. Sometimes it is easier and quicker to dodge a dragon than to turn it into a small fluffy animal via incantations and wand waving.

DIsplaying and or using a firearm was the method of defense least likely to result in the serious harm or death of the person defending themself from attack ( even better odds than cooperating with the bad guy IIRC) Still beware the majic wand syndrome.

-kBob

QuietEarp
September 21, 2010, 04:31 PM
Well if someone takes your knife from you the joke is on them because you now can take the knife back because they are probably not trained in fighting with a knife either. At least you get to have the knife first.

GLOOB
September 21, 2010, 05:59 PM
Because the other guy might have a gun? Drawing a knife is the undisputed minimum definition of intent to use lethal force, no matter how little skill or intent you actually have with it. This makes it open season on your behind. Even if you're justified in drawing a knife, your dead body won't be able to provide any further details to the investigation. If you're going to deploy lethal force, you might as well get your money's worth. Make it a 9mm, at least.

Thin, yeah. But that's the best I could come up with.

zignal_zero
September 21, 2010, 07:16 PM
Because the other guy might have a gun? Drawing a knife is the undisputed minimum definition of intent to use lethal force, no matter how little skill or intent you actually have with it. This makes it open season on your behind. Even if you're justified in drawing a knife, your dead body won't be able to provide any further details to the investigation. If you're going to deploy lethal force, you might as well get your money's worth. Make it a 9mm, at least.

Thin, yeah. But that's the best I could come up with.

quoted just because it deserves to be here twice :) knives are VERY effective tools and can be used to disrupt A LOT of human tissue, quickly. however, he's dead on - a person laying on the ground with a knife in his hand and a hole in his head looks like a guilty attacker who got what he asked for. good food for thought, GLOOB :)

on the flip, IF the situation allows, i will always opt for a contact weapon when forced to use DF because i (personally) feel it minimizes the chances of injuring uninvolved perons.

QUIET EARP - that's freakin classic! i can just picture it. if knives are totally ineffective in untrained hands, the way some would have us believe, then you're right - two quys could keep gaining control of the knife and having know clue what to do with it LOL.

knives are not that complex or mysterious. it reminds me of the Green Day album cover where the monkey has poo in his hand, a thought bubble that says "throw?", and a confused look like he's just not sure how it works.

RatDrall
September 22, 2010, 07:32 AM
I've done some Kali and know a bit about fighting with a knife.

The more I learned, the more I realized that I had no clue what I was doing before recieving the training. The problem with people who don't know what they are doing with a knife is not so much that they will be disarmed, it is that they could cut or stab themself by accident, or roll over or fall onto the knife. One of the first thing that I learned was how to swing a pair of sticks, most of the "learning" was hitting myself in the arm or leg by accident. Had it been a blade I would have needed surgery to fix the damage. Things happen when life gets fast and dangerous.

Just like with a gun, I won't push anyone to carry a knife, for defense, if they don't want to put some SERIOUS effort into learning what to do with it. Watching youtube and surfing sites is about as serious as most people are willing to get.

A knife is not "better than nothing" for the untrained. We were all born with arms and hands and most have spent more time learning to fight with empty hands than they have with sharpened bits of steel. I would stick with what I know.

Gunfighter123
September 22, 2010, 10:42 AM
The more I learned, the more I realized that I had no clue what I was doing before recieving the training. The problem with people who don't know what they are doing with a knife is not so much that they will be disarmed, it is that they could cut or stab themself by accident, or roll over or fall onto the knife. One of the first thing that I learned was how to swing a pair of sticks, most of the "learning" was hitting myself in the arm or leg by accident. Had it been a blade I would have needed surgery to fix the damage. Things happen when life gets fast and dangerous.


I gotta agree 100% with Rat -------- even just taking Eskrima/Kali for a month or two , 2 or 3 times a week --- will open your eyes to what can be done by someone who has TRAINED with useing bladed weapons.

jimmyraythomason
September 22, 2010, 10:49 AM
Between a knife and a good 3 foot piece of hickory,I'll take the hickory stick every day of the week(in a defensive situation).

GUNNAR2001
September 22, 2010, 11:52 PM
Years ago, I was trained in Eskrima, Arnis, Kali stick and blade fighting. I believe, and was taught that you should assume that you will be injured when fighting blade to blade and that the desired end result was for you to still be alive and your opponent dead or nearly so. Today, justifying the use of any blade in a self defense situation will put you on the losing end legally (probably prison) unless you are in the later category in most situations. I now carry a knife for utility purposes only and keep my bladed weapons on display. A collapsible baton is a good option but that is the one you should have training on before using for self defense. In my humble opinion, get NRA approved training and a CPL.

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