Cylinder Overrun Problem


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HSPepke
September 22, 2010, 08:21 PM
Hello Everyone,
I have an 1858 Pietta New Army that I've converted to cartridge with the gated Kirst Konverter. It's a nice setup, but I find that the cylinder will sometimes overrun the locking bolt when the hammer is pulled back quickly. This will overrun enough to either make the primer pin hit alongside the primer, or when it fires, it is out of alignment enough to shave lead and make a "flier".

It does lock-up properly every time when the hammer is eased back to full cock, but in the "heat of battle" I can't see either Union or Confederate troops having the discipline to do this. :>)

I've noticed that some original Remington cylinders have a slanted "ramp" on the side of the locking hole where my example is getting worn. Did this have anything to do with making it lock-up when it should?

Any suggestions would be appreciated. I love the gun as converted, but it's a bother to feel the cylinder after cocking to make sure it's locked before pulling the trigger.
Steve

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Jim K
September 22, 2010, 09:26 PM
Those "ramps" are called leades and I find it hard to believe anyone made a revolver cylinder without them. As you say, the idea is to allow the cylinder stop to rise and engage the cylinder notch in rapid fire. Without them, the cylinder will "throw by" just as you describe.

I would call the company and see if that cylinder is defective or they just don't know what they are doing. If the former, they should replace it. If the latter, replace them. (You can correct the problem with a Dremel tool, but it takes a goodly amount of skill and practice not to really mess things up.)

Jim

Nicodemus38
September 22, 2010, 09:31 PM
can you put a few pictures of the cylinder up here? that way the gang will be able to see of the cylinder is constructed properly.

HSPepke
September 23, 2010, 01:22 AM
I'm going to try to attach a couple of pics to this post.

The cylinder looks like all the other ones on the Kirst website, none with leades. I've downloaded lots of photos of 1858s, and not very many of the ones I can see have leades, either on the originals, or the new iterations. Some, but not many.

I don't have any problem with the idea of taking my Dremel to the cylinder... if for sure it would fix the problem. The biggest fearsome thing was cutting the loading gate trough, and that went ok.

The website for Kirst is: www.kirstkonverter.com

They are well recognized for a quality product, and I must say that it was a "drop in" perfect fit right out of the box. The gun does work correctly when I deliberately "click.... click" the hammer back to full cock. Guess I'll call them and see what they have to say about my making leades in it.

Thanks for your input.

Steve

HSPepke
September 24, 2010, 12:53 PM
I just got off the phone with the gunsmith Jay from Kirst.

He advises dialing the gun in for my style of cocking by increasing tension on the paul spring, checking that the bolt fits all notches properly, and as a last resort adjusting the drop time of the bolt by stoning tiny amounts of metal off the bolt legs.

I think I'll make leades first. He says that Kirst does not make leades in their cylinders because Remington didn't, and they want them to appear as authentic as possible. I guess that's why most of the photos I have of original New Armies show no leades.
Steve

Jim K
September 24, 2010, 01:15 PM
Well, Remington, as you note, did and didn't. I haven't had the opportunity to do a lot of research but it looks like the early guns had no leade and the newer ones do. At that time, there was really little interest in "fast draw" and makers saw little need for leades. Many small revolver makers never did put them on.

Somehow, the idea of making a cartridge conversion cylinder and then saying they want it to look authentic seems a bit amusing. Sort of like the company making those fake Rolls Royce grilles for VW beetles worrying about the correct color of the logo.

Jim

HSPepke
September 24, 2010, 06:13 PM
Yes indeed. I'm thinking that making it look more original is cheaper.

I cut the leades.... and cured 5 of the 6 stop positions from "overrunning". The cylinder is bored for 5 chambers, and the sixth position is narrower than would allow for another chamber. The stop holes are cut closer together for that position, and something is making the stop bolt miss right there, even with a nice "leade". Hmmmm, gotta think about this.

Steve

Jim K
September 24, 2010, 08:28 PM
OK, I wasn't aware of that, though I guess I should have realized they couldn't get six cartridges in that cylinder diameter. (Colt had the same problem; part of the solution was the tiny rims on .45 Colt cartridges.)

It sounds like the bolt is dropping too late on that last notch, maybe even after it is past. The answer may be to time the gun to drop the bolt sooner. I have never run into that problem, so I also have to think about it a bit.

Jim

HSPepke
September 27, 2010, 07:16 PM
Jim,

After studying the way the pawl works off the hammer, I could see why what the Kirst gunsmith was telling me to do would probably help. And, now I could see that the striking face of the bolt is beveled to slip-in if it drops a smidge soon. Sooo... in small steps I finally stoned .005 off of the legs of the pawl, and everything now locks up fine for my "style" of cocking. Now to polish the leades and re-blue. Whew!

I'm amazed that others, maybe in CASS or SASS, haven't noticed this particular problem while shooting with a cylinder with no leades. Perhaps they are just wondering why they get so many misses?:banghead:

Steve

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