[MicroBalrog]

These guys are a good example (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=28140&mesg_id=28140&page=)

[jar]

Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of the citizens to keep and bear arms. [...] the right of the citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government and one more safeguard against a tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible.

[clubsoda22]

my father is a regestered democrat and very pro-gun. believe it or not they do exist. I'm an independent, but even i swing liberal on many issues. The truth is, a real liberal should be pro gun.

[w4rma]

As a Democratic progressive, I am in full agreement, clubsoda22.

[Mark Tyson]

I am a Democrat; liberal on some things, and I am very pro-gun rights. Following the gun control crowd, the party has reeled from one electoral disaster to another. I hope they will drop this loser of an issue and we can all start debating about health care or something.

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Democrats in general are rational, reasonable people that support American ideals. The DNC is not. The party left the people about 35 years ago.

[cuchulainn]

Yeah, and I'm sure there also were a handful of true humanitarians in Saddam's administration. ;)

Yes, there have been a few maverick Dems (Dingell, for one) who could be counted on to stand up for the RKBA. Has anyone ever denied that?

In any event, Micro, the fact that you feel the need to weekly post something about the handful of pro-RKBA Dems proves that the party in general is anti-RKBA. You may think that you're educating us that we shouldn't distrust Dems in general on the RKBA, but by pointing to the few exceptions that prove the "Dems are anti gun" rule you're simply reminding us of that rule and reinforcing our distrust of Dems on this issue.

[Fastlane]

But of course we know that all Republicans support the 2A. Taft being the pefect example.

[Jeff Thomas]

The Democrats worked very, very hard to make their bed ... they deserve to stew in it for 20 years.

They can prove they've got their heads out of their collective rear ends by making sure the ignominious, so-called "assault weapons ban" (Crime Bill) provisions expire late next year. I'll heavily wager they can't refrain from their knee jerk reaction to retain this absurd legislation, and I have every faith they'll renew American distrust by their actions next fall ... not that I'm entirely sanguine about the Bush administration ...

Very glad to see there are some honest Democrats who would prefer to have open, good faith discussions about the limits of government power. I still believe they are in the very distinct minority.

Those "doing it for the children" ... as in trashing the Constitution ... still lead their party.

Regards from TX

[Skunkabilly]

7.62FMJ, I agree, but unfortunately it seems portions of the Republican party are going that way as well :(

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Oh, don't get me started on that:D

The party with the R is just like the party with a D used to be. Too far left for me:cuss:

[geekWithA.45]

You should know that your party's platform is one of unabashed gun bigotry.

At this link, I post it verbatim, and "fisk" it in detail.

http://geekwitha45.blogspot.com/2003_08_24_geekwitha45_archive.html#106193426029007358

Y'all might want to think again about what you're supporting.

The record speaks for itself.

[mrapathy2000]

I believe its the same group of people that got the prohibition on alcohol which was a waste of money and a complete failure. part of a moralist movement going back to the tempest days. today marijuana would be legal if someone didnt swing a door and bring a prohibition in place which lead to a war on drugs eventually. at one time states looked the other way to marijuana and focussed on more damaging drugs like herion and cocaine. today many people have made meth labs in about anywhere they can. apartment building,inside of a car under the hood. middle of park or hunting ground.

the main thing to do is spin the focuss from guns to better issues. drugs,gangs,poverty,illegal imigration and insecure borders. a hbo series called the wire showed how smuglers got goods off a cargo ship and into a container lot and lost a container and snuck it off the grounds. smugglers bring in illegal goods,people(workers,whores,slaves,foreign criminals escaping crime),drugs and guns.

new law or rules says they have to call before they bring goods into dock long ahead of time. though wonder if that applies to chinese boats. it still wont help with canada and mexico ground shipments and illegal border crossings.

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

MicroBalrog:

Your interest in American politics is noteworthy albiet somewhat shallow as it seems to be limited to 2nd Amendment issues. I am wondering however, what if anything are you doing in your country, Israel, i.e., the one you actually a citizen of, to support RKBA?

[submin]

Two months ago, that thread would have been locked and deleted and every poster that responded would have been banned and their IP blocked. It looks like the left is looking for yet another mask to hide their true identity.

Will you fall for it? I’m not.

[Lone_Gunman]

If you think you are a pro-gun Republican, you might want to write their party leaders, including our president, and ask them why they don't support the 2nd amenment.

Hey, at least pro-gun Democrats know their party is against their gun rights. Most pro-gun Republicans haven't come to realize they have been betrayed.

[submin]

Hey, at least pro-gun Democrats know their party is against their gun rights. Most pro-gun Republicans haven't come to realize they have been betrayed. I’m fully aware of the less than stellar position of the Bush Admin. and key republican congresspersons. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to fall at the feet of the du (which has banned me for a far less offense that my position on the RKBA), nor the party they espouse, simply because they put their finger in the air to see which way the political wind is blowing.

While the RKBA is the largest factor in getting my vote, it is not the only beef I have with the left. But to discuss them here, we would be drifting from the frame work of the thread as well as the purpose of THR.

[roscoe]

If only they would vote and write letters to congress . . .

[Mark Tyson]

If only they would vote and write letters to congress . . .

Hey I write letters to my congressmen and the DNC too for that matter. I think I even posted one here once.

I know the party leadership is hostile to guns ... there's people working to change that. Left leaning independents/democrat union members helped give the white house to Bush in 2000. I personally voted Republican governor because of his record on the AWB.

I think pro-gun democrats do more for RKBA than republicans who assume that their party supports RKBa, when that is not necessarily the case.

[Standing Wolf]

How do I tell the Democans from the Republicrats? Even the score card doesn't help. I can figure out who the Libertarians are, but the rest of those nitwits all sound alike.

[Solinvictus70]

The Republicans, by and large, will pay lip service to the 2nd Amendment at election time, until a vote comes up, where they'll turn on their constituency. Howard Dean realizes that gun control is a dead and losing issue. The fact that his state, Vermont, is the only one in the union without permit requirements, shows his commitment to law abiding gun owners. His position is that it should be a local issue. If New York wants no guns, fine, but don't attempt to control each state through federal legislation. Dean, in my view, is as committed to gun rights as the sitting president if not more.

[clubsoda22]

I agree with solin.

[geekWithA.45]

The fact that his state, Vermont, is the only one in the union without permit requirements, shows his commitment to law abiding gun owners.

Not the case. Vermont's Supreme Court had enough spine in the early 1900's to shoot down a pistol permit law in one of their cities, and issued a strong "gun laws are repugnant to the state constitution" ruling.

Has nothing to do with Dean at all. Not a dang thing.

[Gary H]

PROGRESSIVE...

That word in reference to Democrats is so repugnant. I suppose that makes me a regressive.

In general, Democrats believe in a large centralized government. I suggest that this requires the loss of individual freedom. The Democratic party is marching towards becoming the Socialist Party of the United States. S-PUS. One of the freedoms that Democrats want limited are our gun rights.

Now, there are Democrats on this board that may be JFK Democrats. I don't believe that this wing of the Democratic party are particularly anti-gun. I have voted Republican, but don't tow the Republican line on all issues. Many Democrats are part of the Democratic core groups, such as Unions, Blacks, Jews and so forth. Many of these folks may be historical Democrats and some may be pro-gun. Most modern Socialist are anti-gun.

I no longer know what Republicans stand for. The Bush Republican/Democrats seem to also be pro-big government. I know Republicans that are anti-gun. Maybe we are moving towards one mega party promoting big, centralized government. The Republican party is adopting the Democratic party positions and the Democrats are looking to Europe and the United Nations. We are doomed.....

[Solinvictus70]

In the national party, there's not a lot of difference in the two. Both favor decreased individual freedoms and an expansive state. The Democrats want it to benefit "the people", whatever that means, while the Republicans create socialism for corporations. Either way, the middle class is squeezed out.

[geekWithA.45]

create socialism for corporations.

Here's the Big Disconnect: The view that corporations are necessarilly these giant, faceless entities that answer to no one.

Corporations ARE AN EXPRESSION of the people, they are the mechanism by which we do business.

By count, most corporations are small businesses, who employ perhaps a hundred or less people. I've spent most of my career among such.

I've even OWNED a few of these small corporations in the process.

It's not hard, ANYONE can do it.

Even when you get to "Big Business", you must remind yourself that even the largest of them are made of People; they are owned by People, who put their hard earned money into them hoping to earn more money, employ People, are managed by People, and so on and so on.

I'm not certain that I agree with your point that it IS corporate socialism, but for the sake of argument, I'll go along with it for now.

The difference between socialism of the people and socialism of the corporation is that Corporations Are Trying To Do Something Productive, and generally being of benefit to it's employees and owners in the process.

Socialism of the People, beyond true safety nets, ultimately fosters dependency, while failing to create value. A downwards spiral of nonproductiveness, ensues, and of necessity must leach whatever's being productive for it's own life blood, because it can not sustain itself otherwise.

A similiar dynamic has contributed to this recent mess with McCain-Fiengold, it is the failure to percieve the fact that "special interests" are for the most part, ANOTHER EXPRESSION OF THE PEOPLE, and are an important mechansim by which the People advocate for their issues.

In general, Political Action Committees, Corporations, Political Parties, etc are not these wild animals, with lives and wills of their own.

They are simply mechanisms with which we Try To Get ???? Done.

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Well said, Geekwitha.45.

You forgot to mention another check and balance in the Corporate world: shareholders. Shareholders demand productivity and efficiency, and by extension, profits. They also cull dead weight, or incompetent managers/executives. When was the last time a non-elected incompetent was ever removed from government?

[geekWithA.45]

Thanks for the elaboration, 7.62FMJ...

That's what I meant by "owned by people"....usually, a LOT of people. ;)


and GREAT point re: removal of incompetents!

[Balog]

Anyone who thinks either of the parties is A) pro-freedom or B) representative of the people is massively deluded.

[MicroBalrog]

In general, Democrats believe in a large centralized government. I suggest that this requires the loss of individual freedom.

Not necessarily.

[fallingblock]

The overwhelming majority of the DNC are anti-gun.

The Democrat Party is run and financed by anti-gunners.

You may wish it to be otherwise, and so do I...

But the facts are there...the Democrats as a party are institutionally anti-gun.:(

Maybe that can be changed?

Let's hope so, because the Republicans aren't inspiring much confidence in their pro-Second Amendment rhetoric at the moment.:scrutiny: