Heated arguement about concealed carry


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sxechainsaw
September 27, 2010, 11:47 PM
So a little background about me I'm a 18 year old with a fresh new CCW of about a month or so. I carry when it's law abiding and so on and so forth.

Now I have dinner at my moms place tonight and I start talking about my concealed pistol. First of all my moms not completely anti gun but she doesn't understand my love with them at all. BUT I'm not allowed to carry in her household thanks to my step father. But I still honor it,

So we start discussing and he thinks that because I'm a "dumb teenager" that I'm "endangering other people by having a concealed firearm." I ask him why. He brings up a scenario of an attacker coming at me with a knife and me pulling out my weapon and since I have a weapon he'll either get more angry and attack me rather than just robbing me or he'll pull out his own gun and shoot me.

AND THEN his second scenario is that I'm in a dark alley and an attacker comes at me, my life is in extreme danger, I pull out my firearm, fire, and miss and hit and innocent bystander. So according to him I'm a danger to others by carrying.

And his last argument is that he sees no reason at all for me carrying a concealed weapon.

This thread is part rant part question. Why do you carry? Would you see these scenarios as a legitimate argument?

Any input is highly appreciated.


Edit: My apologies for the large amount of grammatical errors.

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happygeek
September 27, 2010, 11:59 PM
If it's true that there's no reason to carry, then his two scenarios can't happen. If there's a chance you might be attacked by a knife wielding madmen, then you should be carrying.

Ask him if he's willing to bet his life on his mixed martial arts skills against a knife wielding attacker.

springmom
September 28, 2010, 12:02 AM
Wait a minute. Where are you legally allowed to carry at 18?

Jan

Hanzo581
September 28, 2010, 12:03 AM
He gives you two exact reasons why you SHOULD be carrying, then one his third point contradicts it?

He seems like a smart one.

pikid89
September 28, 2010, 12:07 AM
i wish i knew where you lived 3 years ago as i would move there but now that i turn 21 in a month i guess its a moot point now lol

sxechainsaw
September 28, 2010, 12:07 AM
I live in the great state of south dakota

surjimmy
September 28, 2010, 12:07 AM
I'm with springmom, where can you carry at the age of 18?:what:

danprkr
September 28, 2010, 12:08 AM
Sounds like a combination of no one should carry, and his wife's 18 y/o brat shouldn't carry. Either way the only way to deal with it is to ignore it, and live your life as a responsible adult. Either he'll come around or not. Either way it's not something you can control. Good luck.

kirklandkie
September 28, 2010, 12:09 AM
Wait a minute. Where are you legally allowed to carry at 18?

Jan

he's probably from Vermont or something, lucky sob

-kirk

EDIT: dang fast reply from op, well either way you're lucky

TexasGunbie
September 28, 2010, 12:10 AM
Here's the conversation I had with my buddy the other day.

Friend: Why do you carry? it just makes things worse.

Friend: If someone come robs you and he has a gun, you should call 911.

Me: Wouldn't it be better if I have a gun so I can defend myself, in case the cops doesn't get here first?

Friend: That would just make it worse, if you didn't have a gun, he wouldn't want to shoot you, now you have one, he will have to shoot you.

Me: How you know he wasn't going to shoot me anyways.

Friend: It's just COMMON SENSE, he just wants money, he would leave once he got the money.

Me: That doesn't make sense, if he's bold enough to come rob you with a gun, he's bold enough to shoot it.

Then my girlfriend had to butt in.

Girlfriend: Honey, promise me you won't kill him, just shoot him in the leg or shoot the gun out of his hand.

Me: So I shoot his leg while he shoots me in the face?

Girlfriend: I don't see why you have to shoot to kill...

Me: Yeah yeah.. I'll just shoot off his trigger finger.

I lost respect for my gf after that, I think she's kinda dumb. Anyways, I am sure someone had similar conversations with their love ones before too lol.

Hanzo581
September 28, 2010, 12:15 AM
I love how anti's always think they know the intention of criminals, cause of course criminals don't just kill people for the sake of killing them...nope...never happens. They all just want your money and will promptly leave after getting it.

NavyLCDR
September 28, 2010, 12:17 AM
I'm with springmom, where can you carry at the age of 18?

California, Nevada, Arizona, Oregon, Idaho, Colorado, Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota, Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois, Mississippi, Alabama, North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, Kentucky, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Montana, Wyoming, Louisiana, Missouri, New Hampshire, Maine, Vermont, AND Alaska.

TheAmplifiedsoul
September 28, 2010, 12:43 AM
I used to work at a hospital in Pheonix. I've seen plenty of people come in with GSWs who were unarmed. Sometimes they lived, sometimes not. If going by your stepfather's logic, why were they shot? I've been around a lot of craziness in my life and known people who were killed. About a year ago a guy was stabbed 15 feet where I work and was unarmed. Maybe if some of these people were armed they would still be alive. It's in no way a sure thing that they would have leved, but at least they would have had a chance.

NavyLCDR
September 28, 2010, 12:49 AM
You might want to look here:
http://www.gunfacts.info/

archigos
September 28, 2010, 12:55 AM
Its none of your stepfather's business if you're carrying or not. Don't pay attention to his nonsense. The argument that you describe sounds like its resulting from raw bigotry on his part, but I wasn't there so I can't wholly judge that.
If I encounter a situation where raw bigotry is evident, I just end the conversation with something to the extent of "Stop the bigotry and do some research, or don't bother pretending to have a discussion with an educated participant."

archigos
September 28, 2010, 12:56 AM
I second NavyLT's post. Gunfacts.info is awesome, and thats a great place to direct him for research.

springmom
September 28, 2010, 12:58 AM
Well, cool. Texas is so behind.

Now, to the point. There are two issues. First, he's got silly reasons against concealed carry. He might come around by getting more education on the subject (lots of folks do) or he might not. However, second issue: he's not going to get it from you. Fair or not, like it or not, parental units (of which I am one) have a tendency to get very deaf when their offspring try to teach them something. I am sure my kids would tell you that I have done that even though I try really hard not to; I know bloody well that my 84-year old dad STILL does it to me, even though I'm 55! You are never not a kid to your parents. :rolleyes:

Depending on whether your stepdad is a magazine or book reader, you might be able to leave some reading materials around (American Hunter if he hunts, or First Freedoms, both from the NRA...or some of the very good books on self defense that are out there). You might, over time, win him over by example. If you are respectful of your parents' house rules that will help. If you get through the next few years with no problems with your firearms (no NDs!), likewise. If you can eventually take him out to the range to shoot with you, that might be good too.

But the one thing you will NOT be able to do successfully is argue with him about this. Lots of folks will be happy to feed you one liners and commiserate with you about how stupid your stepdad is, blah blah blah. Not helpful. You have to get along with this guy and you want to *win him over*, not just win an argument at the dinner table.

Jan

9MMare
September 28, 2010, 12:59 AM
Sxechainsaw, sounds like you kept a cool head and were more sensible than the older man. Well done.

And smart to come here and ask....people here will provide you with the info and examples you need to discuss the issue constructively with anti-gun people.

I tell people about my (ongoing) training and the types of circumstances that I am legally allowed to use my gun. And that it is not my only solution to crime....just one. That if I use it, there is no other choice to save my life.

labhound
September 28, 2010, 01:54 AM
The OP said it was a concealed handgun. In Virginia, you have to be 21 years to get a concealed handgun permit. Its right on the form SP-248 "Application For Concealed Handgun Permit Commonwealth of Virginia, Virginia Code 18.2-308 item #2 Date of Birth (You must be at least 21 years of age)".

Vector
September 28, 2010, 02:03 AM
So a little background about me I'm a 18 year old with a fresh new CCW of about a month or so.

No personal offense intended with this comment, but his best argument would be that you are "a dumb teenager".
When you become 18 it does not magically turn you into a mature adult who will act responsibly with a firearm. It takes maturity and experience, not a date on the calender.

Alex45ACP
September 28, 2010, 02:04 AM
I never understood the "just call the police!" mindset. You call the police BECAUSE they have guns. If they didn't have guns, you wouldn't bother calling them, you would call someone who DID have a gun. So in an emergency, instead of waiting for someone who does have a gun to show up when they get around to it, why not just cut out the middleman and carry your own gun?

NavyLCDR
September 28, 2010, 02:19 AM
The OP said it was a concealed handgun. In Virginia, you have to be 21 years to get a concealed handgun permit. Its right on the form SP-248 "Application For Concealed Handgun Permit Commonwealth of Virginia, Virginia Code 18.2-308 item #2 Date of Birth (You must be at least 21 years of age)".

But the OP could open carry in Virginia at 18.

Dionysusigma
September 28, 2010, 02:27 AM
:scrutiny:

There is no arguing with such logic. Best to keep quiet, nod your head, and worry yourself with things that actually matter.

Ramman911
September 28, 2010, 02:28 AM
The OP said it was a concealed handgun. In Virginia, you have to be 21 years to get a concealed handgun permit. Its right on the form SP-248 "Application For Concealed Handgun Permit Commonwealth of Virginia, Virginia Code 18.2-308 item #2 Date of Birth (You must be at least 21 years of age)".

Well, they are not in Virginia.

OP - good job keeping a rational conversation with an uneducated individual. Hopefully in time he will come around and heaven forbid that you are around when he may be in a life/death situation. Bet he would change his story PDQ!!!

e3mrk
September 28, 2010, 02:30 AM
My question is how You were able to buy a Hand Gun when Federal Law says You must be 21?
I got this out of My BATF Book.

NavyLCDR
September 28, 2010, 02:34 AM
My question is how You were able to buy a Hand Gun when Federal Law says You must be 21?
I got this out of My BATF Book.

The Federal law only says that an FFL may only transfer a handgun to a person who is 21 years or older. Federal law limits the private sale, gift or other non-FFL transfer of a handgun to persons 18 years or older:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html
18 USC 922 (x):

(x)
(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile—
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
(5) For purposes of this subsection, the term “juvenile” means a person who is less than 18 years of age.

omegaflame
September 28, 2010, 02:34 AM
There's quite a few videos online where robbers walk in on unarmed people who comply and are then executed.

Show them a few of those.

Also some news reports about them, but less shocking.

NavyLCDR
September 28, 2010, 02:40 AM
Like this one:

http://vagunforum.net/general-discussion/open-carrier-saved-lives-richmond-shooting-saturday-t1225.html

danprkr
September 28, 2010, 03:09 AM
However, second issue: he's not going to get it from you. Fair or not, like it or not, parental units (of which I am one) have a tendency to get very deaf when their offspring try to teach them something.

Exactly. And, his attitude is (once again) something you can't control. But, I will say that I have found (with my father especially) that not arguing, and not changing my ways brings him around quicker than anything. Oddly it still hasn't helped on carrying, and I'm 43, but on other issues it almost seems to me that if I don't NEED his approval he's more apt to grant it. Maybe a quirk with my dad, but if it is just a quirk it's not a quirk with JUST my dad.

In the mean time, his house = his rules. Respect his property rights as you would those of anyone else.

Once again - good luck.

CHEVELLE427
September 28, 2010, 03:11 AM
Wait a minute. Where are you legally allowed to carry at 18? I'm a "dumb teenager" that I'm "endangering other people by having a concealed firearm

my thought too you have to be 21 in FL FOR A HAND GUN

IF THE LATER IS TRUE we must have a lot of dumb teenagers fighting for this country now days. as most of out fighting guys and girls are 18 and up. sounds like STEP DAD IS A wont go there here wouldn't be THR;)

IF MOM TRUMPS STEP DAD DONT ASK DONT TELL

lonegunman
September 28, 2010, 03:26 AM
I was not aware an 18y/o could carry a handgun, but let's say you can do it.

Being 18y/o you are honestly not as smart or rational as you think you are, sorry you are young and lack experience. You might find yourself at a kegger with the local gang bangers and since you told everyone you have a ccw they decide to bum rush you and rob you or your trusty gun. You end up blasting some idiots and getting charged with murder because the party was mostly their friends and not yours. It has happened.

Carrying a gun does mean you have to be a better person, more aware of where you go and what you do. It also means keeping your mouth shut about your carry status. Putting yourself in positions where you have to draw is not a good idea. No teasing road ragers or street gangs, no hanging with scummy friends, keep yourself out of trouble. Most of all it means you need to practice with your firearm until you are halfway decent and able to operate the gun when your hands are shaking and your nerves are ready to fold you up.

The chances you ever have to draw a weapon are close to zero. The chance you will have to fire are about 1 in 20. According to most stats and in my personal experience, once guns are drawn even the most persistant criminal reconsiders quickly. But, there is the one guy who won't back off and he is ready to trade bullets. Thats the guy you are training for and trying to avoid at the same time.

Your step father is an idiot by the way. Since your mom saw fit to marry an idiot you have to abide him as long as you live under their roof. I'd save money and move myself. I left home the day after high school graduation and never returned, it worked fine for me and my folks didn't complain. A guy with a gun will not opt for a knife, thats just stupid. Could you shoot an unarmed person or God forbid a bystander, yes. But, that is so rare as to be nearly unheard of in shootings, even in those wild police gunfights you see once a year.

The armed private citizen kills ten times more criminals annually than the cops, according to the DoJ. Cops by the way average 10-20 times the number of criminals compared to the number of cops killed by criminals. What does this mean?

The person who is better trained and more aware typically ends up on the winning side in a fight.

NavyLCDR
September 28, 2010, 03:32 AM
my thought too you have to be 21 in FL FOR A HAND GUN

Except for carrying concealed on the person, the age limit is 18 in Florida:

http://www.flsenate.gov/STATUTES/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.25.html

(5)

POSSESSION IN PRIVATE CONVEYANCE.—Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person. This subsection shall be liberally construed in favor of the lawful use, ownership, and possession of firearms and other weapons, including lawful self-defense as provided in s. 776.012.

The vehicle exception above is only one of many exceptions in Florida. The age limit for private sales/gifts of handguns is 18 as well.

NavyLCDR
September 28, 2010, 03:34 AM
lonegunman,

I guess you would be against 18 year old persons being allowed to enter the military who choose to serve their country?

Interesting to note that more than 60% of the persons responsible for transporting nuclear missiles are 18 to 22 years old:
http://www.11alive.com/rss/rss_story.aspx?storyid=153559

ST. MARYS, Ga. (AP) - Congressman Jack Kingston says there is support among military leaders for proposed legislation to allow service members under 21 to drink beer and wine at base restaurants and clubs.

Kingston says military brass are reluctant to publicly express their opinion, but that they unofficially agree with the proposal.

Kingston says he plans to hold public meetings on the issue. The legislation would prohibit the consumption of alcohol anywhere other than designated establishments on bases.

Kingston says about 60 percent of sailors serving on nuclear submarines are between the ages of 18 and 22 and active-duty soldiers have a 90 percent chance of being sent to Iraq or Afghanistan.

I was the unit armorer for my national guard unit at the age of 18 in charge of 200 M-16's, 20 M-60 .30 Cal Machine Guns, and 8 or so .50 Cal M-2's, and around 20 M1911s. Not to mention M-203 grenade launchers, and if we ever went on active duty in combat, all kinds of grenades and Claymore anti-personnel mines.

mnrivrat
September 28, 2010, 05:08 AM
No personal offense intended with this comment, but his best argument would be that you are "a dumb teenager".

When you become 18 it does not magically turn you into a mature adult who will act responsibly with a firearm. It takes maturity and experience, not a date on the calender.

Sorry but I can't leave that one go without comment - I have seen way to many older adults who seem to never grow up to not remind you that those dumb teenagers have been on the forefront of our military since we have maintained a standing army.

I can attest to the fact that when it comes to handling firearms and using them against another human being to protect yourself, that there are many 18 and 19 year old teenagers who have a hell of a lot of experience. If our society treats 18 year olds as kids , then what justification do we have to sending our kids to fight and die for us ?

sniper5
September 28, 2010, 05:26 AM
First- Concealed means concealed. Don't discuss your carry with anyone. You don't carry a firearm, you aren't armed, it doesn't exist, it stays hidden from view.

Second-You will not win in a discussion with a person who uses emotionally based arguments. They don't have to deal with or accept reality and they can create any outlandish scenario in their head that they want or demand proof of negatives. Don't bring up the subject, or if it comes up, change the subject or let it drop. If they tell you not to carry, say "OK, then I won't carry" then do as you wish and then you are no longer carrying and the problem takes care of itself (see One, above).

Trust me, I have dealt with an entire family of rabid hoplophobes for 30 years. My wife is the only one of her entire blood line that has TOUCHED a firearm and that took about 29 years to make it happen. We are now shooting buddies. And she WON'T shoot anywhere but COM on a bad guy (and they'll probably go where she aims them-she's been a good student).

vaupet
September 28, 2010, 05:35 AM
the age discussion really p* me off. (and i'm 43 btw).
In world war II, a lot of a RAF bomber command pilots were about 17. These boys were allowed to fly 4 engined heavy bombers to Germany at night with a possible chance of being shot down of 7% (100% in 15 missions).
After landing, they weren't allowed to visit pubs, see women, drive a car or vote (al of wich you had to be 21). But I think it is not the age discussion around here.

Shadow 7D
September 28, 2010, 06:10 AM
On the face there would seem to be a certain logic, much like the oft repeated, reputed old Chinese proverb about rape, relax and try to enjoy it, it will be over sooner. A pacifistic view, of giving this person what they request in a transactional sort of logic, you cave into their command in the face of superior threat, and they only use threat, and not violence.


Here is the BUT

what happens when they don't get what they want??
what happens when what they as for isn't what they really want and just a ruse???
what happens when they decide to 'violate' this 'agreement' that the pacifist is putting their trust in.


A good person isn't going to be doing such bad acts
that leaves a bad person, and this is a person who is already violating social covenants.

what is to stop them from raping you, beating you, killing you, just for fun....

OH and they make one less person to tell on them to 'authority'; who may or may not do something about it...

Yeah, sorry I believe I will live meekly and carry a gun...

BTW, by 17 I was already in the army, able to die for my country, but it was illegal for me to even smoke the cigarettes I was buying with the convenient green piece of ID, lets not talk of drinking, age has little to do with responsibility, if it did, then cartoons and video games wouldn't be marketed for the 30+ crowd.

shockwave
September 28, 2010, 06:44 AM
So there's been some talk about maturity and whatnot. Part of that discussion does involve the kind of self control and good judgement an 18-yr-old might have, and part of it involves the lifestyle of a teenager. It's natural to wonder if our young gun owner is mature enough...

Now I have dinner at my moms place tonight and I start talking about my concealed pistol.

There's the answer right there. Your pistol is not dinner conversation, and certainly not with people whom you know are not crazy about a teenage kid running around with one. Sounds to me like you're all pumped up, all psyched to be carrying, etc. Recipe for pure trouble.

cassandrasdaddy
September 28, 2010, 07:00 AM
and seem mature enough to me. that said its hard for a parent to stop thinking of you as more than an infant. keep being who you are and try to forgive them and understand what motivates em. they are probably making a mistake but they can't see it now. someday maybe you can do a lil better. but if when its your kid if you act the same way and you might. don't be too hard on yourself. you see i can say all that about you being mature enough but i suspect if you were mine? i might not be able to say the same thing.

in my case i was in my mid 30's before my dad saw me as an adult and i left home at 15

JohnBiltz
September 28, 2010, 08:02 AM
California, Nevada, Arizona, Oregon, Idaho, Colorado, Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota, Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois, Mississippi, Alabama, North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, Kentucky, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Montana, Wyoming, Louisiana, Missouri, New Hampshire, Maine, Vermont, AND Alaska.

No, not in Arizona you have to be 21 to conceal carry. Its questionable he could open carry a hand gun since its illegal for him to buy ammo. He could open carry a rifle with no problem. But we are talking concealed carry and that would not be legal.

Double Naught Spy
September 28, 2010, 09:06 AM
Right. Most of those states do NOT allow concealed carry of a handgun by persons under 21 years of age.

Getting back to the OP's queries, I would suggest not bothering to argue with your stepfather over the issue of concealed carry validity. It is obviously a topic about which he has already made up his mind. Given that he sees you as endangering yourself and others simply by carrying, I doubt he is going to change his mind short of you saving him from a violent attacker with your gun.

jbrown50
September 28, 2010, 09:11 AM
Don't worry Sxechainsaw.

You've met and will continue to meet lots of folks who are unwilling to admit that you're more mature at the age of 18 than they were.

You'll also meet folks who have a deep seeded fear of firearms mainly because they don't trust 'themselves' with them. They'll do their best to try and heap that same inadequacy upon you. It helps them to get through life by rationalizing that their lack of self control is normal therefore, since they can't picture themselves as a responsible gun owner, no one else can be either.

Age certainly plays a part in maturity but I've met quite a few 18 year olds who were more rational and level headed than a lot of 50 year olds that I know.

rattletrap1970
September 28, 2010, 09:12 AM
Actually I got my permit to carry at 18, which by law allowed me to carry. I couldn't buy a handgun myself though. This was in CT. back in 1987.

Deanimator
September 28, 2010, 10:11 AM
Friend: It's just COMMON SENSE, he just wants money, he would leave once he got the money.
Tell the "friend" that there's a doctor in Connecticut who knows a little something about that.

rodensouth
September 28, 2010, 10:13 AM
The OP brought up conversation about his pistol with his MOTHER. I don't know about most of you, but immediate family tends to talk about everything at the table. If he's supposed to be tight-lipped in public (which I agree with), then who is it OK to talk to if not his mother. This showed NO lack of maturity.

I'm 39, and I can remember being 18 and seeing many idiots my age that were not responsible enough to carry. I see the same thing with my current age group!!!!

If it is legal for him to carry, then your postulations on his maturity are likely your projections on him, and not based on anything he's brought up in this thread.

gbw
September 28, 2010, 10:16 AM
With rare exceptions, 18 year olds do not have the maturity, judgement, experience or temperment to be carrying a gun unsupervised. Or drink alcohol. Many of them have no business even driving.

From Shockwave:

There's the answer right there. Your pistol is not dinner conversation, and certainly not with people whom you know are not crazy about a teenage kid running around with one. Sounds to me like you're all pumped up, all psyched to be carrying, etc. Recipe for pure trouble.

He is exactly right.

From NavyLT

I guess you would be against 18 year old persons being allowed to enter the military who choose to serve their country?

Interesting to note that more than 60% of the persons responsible for transporting nuclear missiles are 18 to 22 years old:
http://www.11alive.com/rss/rss_story...storyid=153559

This argument is used often. It is bogus, the reasons are control and supervision.

Military service is honorable, but it does not make one an adult. The military allows no one unsupervised access to weapons. Especially 18 year olds. They dictate what weapons, when they are allowed and issued, how they are used, and they always supervise. They know full well that in general young people have no business with guns (or booze) until they are trained and supervised. Try to use your concealed carry permit on a military base. Even in combat they try hard to ensure no one goes armed but unsupervised.

(We often used to joke that the reason the military wanted us 18 year olds is because we were the only ones immature and dumb enough to do some of what the military orders. True? I wonder. )

To the OP: Carry may be legal for you as an 18 year old, but it's not wise. Spend the next few years working on your maturity and judgement, your schooling, and your grammer. You'll have plenty of time for guns later, and you'll enjoy them more.

M-Cameron
September 28, 2010, 10:19 AM
quick responses for people who are intentionally stubborn.....

1.) " yeah, because there have never been random acts of violence........oh wait a minute....wasnt there something that happened at VT and Columbine....a while back.....according to your logic everyone there was packing"


2.) " its my money/ possessions....why should i just hand it over to some crackhead because he demanded it...."


this one usually works....even if they wont admit it....

3.) " ok...so if someone came in here and started shooting up the place.....would you want me/ or someone else to have a gun?"


when they bring up the fact that guns make people more prone to violence...

4.) "so if i put a gun in your hands right now.....are you going to go shoot someone with it........didnt think so........so why do you feel that everyone else would?"

The Bushmaster
September 28, 2010, 10:21 AM
NavyLT. You must be 23 to carry concealed in Missouri and though it is legal to open carry it is not recommended in cities and townships.

DocCas
September 28, 2010, 10:46 AM
I debated with myself for quite a while before deciding to answer.

First the OP talking to his mother and step-father about his carry piece was not an act of immaturity. Family are the ones you are supposed to talk to. They should know you carry and that it is not something to discuss except in private, such as at home around the dinner table.

Second, I don't know the OP so I cannot offer an informed opinion regarding the level of his maturity. However, I can opine that blanket statements such as "18 year olds are too immature to carry" are not based on rational evaluation of the OPs levels of emotional maturity but rather on a knee jerk emotional reaction without foundational merit.

As to military personnel carrying. I was given my first M-14 at 17. M-16 at 18. At 18 1/2 I was not supervised, I WAS the supervisor (squad leader). Conditions such as we found ourselves in back in the early/mid 60s forced you to grow up fast. I'm now 64 and don't consider myself any more capable today than I was in 1964.

Now, to the OP. I have been accused (rightly, in the opinion of many) of being a manipulative SOB, so take this with a grain of salt. Had I been challenged regarding my choice to carry as you were, I would have asked if my step-father did not believe my life was worth protecting. And, on the other hand, had I been his biological child, would his opinion have been different?

But that is just me. :)

NavyLCDR
September 28, 2010, 10:55 AM
The military allows no one unsupervised access to weapons. Especially 18 year olds. They dictate what weapons, when they are allowed and issued, how they are used, and they always supervise. They know full well that in general young people have no business with guns (or booze) until they are trained and supervised. Try to use your concealed carry permit on a military base. Even in combat they try hard to ensure no one goes armed but unsupervised.

I must respectfully disagree, having 26 years of military experience. When a young sailor or soldier heads off to Afghanistan or Iraq the military issues them an M-4 or M-9 and ammo. They carry that gun with them 24/7, in all situations, supervised and not. Then, hopefully 1 year later, when they come back, they turn that M-9 or M-4 back into the armory. The military has no problems handing an 18 year a gun and saying, this is yours - you care for it - you are responsible for it - everywhere you go - your barracks, the chow hall, on patrol, at training. Obviously speaking of the deployed environment here. I know. I've been there.

TexasRifleman
September 28, 2010, 10:59 AM
The military allows no one unsupervised access to weapons. Especially 18 year olds. They dictate what weapons, when they are allowed and issued, how they are used, and they always supervise.

I suggest you speak with some of our young men deployed in Afghanistan about that, I think you will find you're completely wrong.

I was tempted to go through here and tear into those saying that someone 18 years of age isn't mature enough to carry a handgun but I see that's being done already.

That someone is old enough to go fight a war on foreign soil but not buy a beer or have a pistol will never make sense to me.

I suggest some folks just stay out of threads like this if your only comment is to fret about the age issue.

gbw
September 28, 2010, 11:08 AM
As to military personnel carrying. I was given my first M-14 at 17. M-16 at 18. At 18 1/2 I was not supervised, I WAS the supervisor (squad leader).

Exactly. I know you didn't mean to, but you've made my point.

You were not allowed weapons, unsupervised. It took a year and a half, but finally you'd proven your maturity and earned your position as a supervisor of other 18 year olds with guns.

Like most with much contact with them, I maintain that the huge majority of 18 year olds (and 19, 20 minimum) have no business with weapons unless they are supervised and controlled.


From NavyLT:

Obviously speaking of the deployed environment here.

Sure. If the only choices in a war zone are unarmed or armed and unsupervised, then of course arm them. But remember that these are kids who have been trained and made the cut at least through boot and their other initial training, and shown some measure of maturity. And even then it's allowed only in a war zone.


From TexasRifleman:
I suggest some folks just stay out of threads like this if your only comment is to fret about the age issue.

It's more about maturity than age, although they tend to be related. I think you know what you can do with your suggestion.

MTMilitiaman
September 28, 2010, 11:19 AM
First of all, you should dispel the notion that you are a "stupid teenager." There are literally hundreds of thousands of such "stupid teenagers" entrusted to defend our freedom and security every day with firearms in this great nation's armed forces. At the very least, it is a training issue, not an age or maturity issue.

In your first scenario, if someone draws a knife on you, it's going to be difficult to draw your weapon before he's close enough to stab you. If you manage this feat, then he shouldn't have time to get angry or draw a gun. And if you have your gun drawn on somebody and they can get their own sidearm out before you can pull the trigger, you deserve to die.

And statistically, legal CCW holders are over five times less likely to hurt or kill an innocent bystander than a police officer, last time I checked.

patrick126
September 28, 2010, 11:29 AM
At last he made you think! 18 is very young, regardless of your maturity level. As an ex police officer and full carry permit holder, I'd suggest a few things. Make sure you carry a safe gun, DAO are most preferred by law enforecment these days. Take as much combat, tactical training as you can. Just took a full day at the S&W facility in Ma on point shooting. Our sights were taped over and all we did was work on safety and shooting, a very active day. Many people shoot off a box of rounds at a range and think they can now carry a gun. One thing I learned as a cop, was the rules of escalation, if you will. If someone comes at me with a fist, there's only one place for my gun, secured in a holster so I can fight back and subdue the perp. As a civilian, your only move is to defend and retreat, since there's no need to make an arrest. Would you do that or pull your gun? Most untrained people would pull their gun. Bad move.

If someone comes at you with a bottle, knife, bat, things change quite a bit obviously. As a street wise guy, just pulling the gun may diffuse the situation, or if you have some separation from the guy (s), you can always put one in the ground, if they kept coming then you protect your life. But this would stand up a lot better in court if you showed this measured restraint, assuming the situation warrants this. If some guy pulls a bat in a road incident and you start shooting, better have a good lawyer. But we always said, "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6", but you really need to understand when a civilian has the right to defend themselves with deadly force. In most potentially deadly situations (those w/o a bad guy's gun present), they can be diffused w/o a shot, if you have it in mind that your primary goal is to get away safely, not fire your weapon. To your step father's point, most 18 yr olds don't have this level of maturity and life experiences to make critical decisions in a split second.

MikeNice
September 28, 2010, 11:42 AM
Navy you must be 21 in North Carolina according to General Statute 14-415.12.

Packman
September 28, 2010, 11:48 AM
No personal offense intended with this comment, but his best argument would be that you are "a dumb teenager".

When you become 18 it does not magically turn you into a mature adult who will act responsibly with a firearm. It takes maturity and experience, not a date on the calender.

Being 18y/o you are honestly not as smart or rational as you think you are, sorry you are young and lack experience.


To some of our elder members of this board: Respectfully, I would like to inform you that I find your blanket statements appalling. How dare you pass such a judgment without knowing the man? This sort of age-based argument is exactly the kind of discrimination that infuriates so many people on this board. I fall into this age bracket myself. Telling me that I can't be "responsible" or "smart and rational" because of my age is one of the most insulting things you could say to me.

To your step father's point, most 18 yr olds don't have this level of maturity and life experiences to make critical decisions in a split second.

This is the one comment from this post that makes me angriest. When I was 13 years old, I started taking flight training. I soloed an aircraft on my 16th birthday. I didn't even have a driver's license. When I turned 17, I received an unrestricted pilot's license, permitting me to fly 2000+ pound aircraft anywhere I wanted. I can kill a rather large number of people with an aircraft should I choose to act with malice aforethought.

Before I turned 19, I held both an instrument rating and a commercial pilot's license. Do you honestly mean to tell me that now, a month short of my 21st birthday, that I "lack the maturity and life experience to make a critical decision in a split second?" Sirs and Mesdames, I do so on a daily basis. Do not deign to judge me, nor bigalexe, nor sxechainsaw, nor any of our other so-called "underage" members on this board, to be "too immature" because of our age.

Advanced age does not a wise man make, nor a judicious one.

Vector
September 28, 2010, 11:53 AM
Sorry but I can't leave that one go without comment - I have seen way to many older adults who seem to never grow up to not remind you that those dumb teenagers have been on the forefront of our military since we have maintained a standing army.

I can attest to the fact that when it comes to handling firearms and using them against another human being to protect yourself, that there are many 18 and 19 year old teenagers who have a hell of a lot of experience. If our society treats 18 year olds as kids , then what justification do we have to sending our kids to fight and die for us ?
I hear what you are saying, and also know there are exceptions to the rule.

However I look back to when I was 18, and had I been packing back then, I'd have been much more irresponsible than when I was say, at 23 or so. I knew how to shoot and safely handle a gun at 18 and even owned a couple. However I did not carry because it was illegal, and in my testosterone filled brain figured I could handle most situations without a gun because of my size and training.
Now looking back I see how I might not have exercised the best judgment compared to when I was just a few years older. I suspect that is the reason many states require kids to be older before they can legally carry.

SigFan6255
September 28, 2010, 11:58 AM
The fact that the OP went through the process of legally carrying shows a higher level of maturity. I can guarantee that there is plenty of people from 16-60 that drives around with a loaded handgun under the seat etc.

gbw
September 28, 2010, 12:07 PM
Young Packman, don't be angry, clearly you're an exception which anyone would recognize. Even so, you had to first prove your ability and maturity, which you did.

But laws are passed for and apply to everyone. The law cannot cherry-pick the good 18 y/os, separate them from the masses, and give them special legal treatment.

For things like ccw, alcohol, etc., you are stuck with the lowest common demoninator. Most teens and early 20s just aren't there yet. BTW, how does that argument work with your auto insurance company?

Young men pay by far the highest auto insurance rates. Hertz normally won't rent cars to men under 25. Experience over many years shows that as a rule they have easily the highest accident rates. Why? Same reasons they should not have guns. Lack of age, maturity, judgement, experience, and too much testerone, machismo, immaturity, alcohol.

Packman
September 28, 2010, 12:28 PM
But laws are passed for and apply to everyone. The law cannot cherry-pick the good 18 y/os, separate them from the masses, and give them special legal treatment.

No it can't, and I wouldn't want it to. I freely admit that many of my peers (and I use the term loosely) should absolutely not be entrusted with firearms, airplanes, cars or children. Yet the fact remains that in many cases, we are, for better or worse. My point remains: It's blatantly unfair to judge we few who elevate ourselves to a higher standard of behavior, simply because we are young. Further, I'm insulted when compared to those in my age bracket who chose not to conduct themselves along a higher standard.

The argument applies to the insurance companies as well. They don't know me, but are willing to work with me. I have a good student discount, because I applied myself in high school and continue to do so in college. I have a safe driver discount, because I've never received a speeding ticket nor been involved in an accident. I receive a discount because I choose to drive a pickup truck, which is statistically involved in less incidents with young drivers.

Lack of age, maturity, judgement, experience, and too much testerone, machismo, immaturity, alcohol.

Your point is well made, though mine stands as well. I haven't been involved in a fist fight since I was 12 years old. I choose not to drink alcohol or partake in the use of drugs. I continually place myself in situations requiring the exercise of sound judgement and maturity (notably in the aviation arena).

Aviation, much like carrying a weapon, is terribly unforgiving of poor judgment, immaturity or lack of experience. Testosterone, machismo and anti-authority tendencies are simply not acceptable behaviors in either area. Such ideas are to be left at home, or back on the ground, when one steps foot in the cockpit or puts a belt through the holster loops.

When, in a month's time, I strap on a pistol and go about my day, what will have changed? Not one single thing, except the knowledge that I have bettered my odds in the incredibly high stakes game we call life.

jimmyraythomason
September 28, 2010, 12:35 PM
Sorry my post was just an echo of what had already been said.

DocCas
September 28, 2010, 12:49 PM
Exactly. I know you didn't mean to, but you've made my point. No, I didn't. I proved your point was wrong!You were not allowed weapons, unsupervised. It took a year and a half, but finally you'd proven your maturity and earned your position as a supervisor of other 18 year olds with guns. I was 18, the same age as the OP. The point, which you obviously missed, was that you can't make a blanket judgment that any 18 year old is to immature to carry a firearm.
Like most with much contact with them, I maintain that the huge majority of 18 year olds (and 19, 20 minimum) have no business with weapons unless they are supervised and controlled.I suggest the fault is not with the young people you have contact with but that the problem is your own arrogant bigotry. You can't make blanket statements and not expect to be challenged. Each person must be evaluated on his/her own merits. The OP took the classes, jumped through the bureaucratic hoops, and was found sufficiently mature to be given a carry license. Period.

gbw
September 28, 2010, 12:59 PM
No, not period. Now I'm an arrogant age bigot? That's a new one. Gracious!

You're being silly. We all make blanket judgements every day, especially the well known (but not perfect) relationship between age and adult judgement. There's no avoiding it. Insurance companies do it, the law does it, companies, states and cities do it. It's necessary. Are there exceptions? Of course. That doesn't change the need or the validity.

shockwave
September 28, 2010, 12:59 PM
I was tempted to go through here and tear into those saying that someone 18 years of age isn't mature enough to carry a handgun but I see that's being done already.

Don't hold back on my account. Part of the confusion here is that I don't think anyone is specifically saying that "no 18-yr-old is mature enough," but rather that the totality of experience suggests that few of them are. The business about the military is a canard, because it isn't an apples-to-apples comparison. Young people can enlist precisely because they are immature and can be molded, they have less self-preservation instinct, and they are easy to recruit.

Actuarial statistics don't lie - automotive insurers have the data (http://www.car-accidents.com/teen-car-accidents.html):

The risk of being involved in a car accident is highest for drivers aged 16 to 19 than it is for any other age group. For each mile driven, teen drivers ages 16 to 19 are about four times more likely than other drivers to crash.

So. Does that mean that you, personally, were a poor driver in your teens? No, it doesn't. It means that teen drivers are 400-percent more likely to be poor drivers. Since we know from developmental science that an 18-year-old has adequate reflexes to operate a car, their high rates of accidents stem from their lack of experience and poor judgement.

We also know that teens are far, far more likely to crash as a result of having teen passengers in the car. The addition of each additional passenger increases the risk. This is so well documented that some states restrict provisional drivers to not having non-adult passengers at all.

And this gets us around to part of the issue: The young CCW owner may have problems when peers are asking to see the gun, daring the owner to draw it, urging him to use it, etc. The teen environment tends to involve social situations like parties, drug use, dating, contests of skill, etc. Thus on the whole, restrictions about ownership and CCW age are a kind of compromise, as they are with alcohol and tobacco, such that we've chosen a cut-off line that recognizes these realities.

Indeed, to the advocate who stoutly maintains that there should be no firearm restrictions for high schoolers, one would ask where that line should be drawn, if at all? To the real purist on this issue, the answer is "zero limits of any kind for anybody, anywhere, at any time." If the parents are fine with it, then 5 or 6 should be A-OK, right? Or maybe 10? If you have a line you won't cross, where are you drawing it, and why?

1swellguy
September 28, 2010, 01:05 PM
Moving about the planet disarmed is asking to be killed by your attacker. Being armed does not guarantee you will survive an attack, nor that bystanders will be unhurt. But it is nonsense to claim an attacker with a weapon "only wants money and will not hurt you" when stepdad has zero evidence to back this up, and there is ample evidence (crime stats) which refute his absurd claim.

Obviously it is more acceptable to stepdad if stepson gets killed by a thug than if the thug gets wounded or killed.

If a bystander gets hurt, IMO it is the hand of the criminal that caused the circumstance, so he is at fault. Not every juror might see it that way, but if I were a juror, I would have to carefully consider this (based on the circumstances of the case). And it only takes one juror to stand up and say "I will NOT vote guilty" in a clear cut case of self defense.

Charleo0192
September 28, 2010, 01:06 PM
If it's true that there's no reason to carry, then his two scenarios can't happen. If there's a chance you might be attacked by a knife wielding madmen, then you should be carrying.

Ask him if he's willing to bet his life on his mixed martial arts skills against a knife wielding attacker.
This. But sometimes people are just uncomfortable around guns when they aren't in control of them...kind of like when on a motorcycle, some people don't feel at ease when they aren't the ones driving.

gbw
September 28, 2010, 01:07 PM
Shockwave:

Don't hold back on my account. Part of the confusion here is that I don't think anyone is specifically saying that "no 18-yr-old is mature enough," but rather that the totality of experience suggests that few of them are. The business about the military is a canard, because it isn't an apples-to-apples comparison. Young people can enlist precisely because they are immature and can be molded, they have less self-preservation instinct, and they are easy to recruit.

Well put.

CoRoMo
September 28, 2010, 01:19 PM
I miss all the good threads. Well, anyway...
...I start talking about my concealed pistol.
This pretty much earned you the argument that you deserved. However misguided your guardians may or may not be, you could have avoided the whole dern thing. As you mature, you'll hopefully learn to be slow to speak and to think before you do so. In other words...
...keep quiet, nod your head, and worry yourself with things that actually matter.

1swellguy
September 28, 2010, 01:24 PM
Some 40 year old adults decide to be criminals. This is not mature.

Some 16 year olds hunt, drive carefully, get good grades, do not drink or do drugs, and act very responsibly.

IMHO - It is incredibly wrong (and yes, even bigoted) to paint all persons under 21 with the same broad brush of "immaturity" when such is not the case. Statistics may be fine tools for measuring trends, but not for judging the character of any one individual.

I suppose it is ok with those in the "18 is too young" camp if a 17 year old girl's ex-boyfriend/stalker catches her unarmed on the way home from work or school and murders her? Evidently, she is just "too young and immature" to be allowed to exercise her God given right to possess the MOST effective means of self defense from an attacker.

"An armed society is a polite society." This is true, not only because of the obvious meaning - but also because of the gravity of carrying an instrument capable of inflicting death or great bodily injury. Carrying a firearm will make a mature person THINK before he says or does things. For those of you who carry, do you still give someone who cuts you off on the highway the 1-finger salute? If so, I think YOU are not mature enough to carry, regardless of your age. If not (but you used to), then carrying a firearm has made you a more polite person. Probably because now that you carry, you have thought a great deal about it, and you would rather let the nutty driver drive off than have to shoot him just because you insisted on expressing your disdain with his marginal driving ability.

Just my opinion.

NavyLCDR
September 28, 2010, 01:25 PM
http://www.opencarry.org/age.html

Obviously, my source above needs some work.

TX1911fan
September 28, 2010, 01:45 PM
1swellguy, I agree with you 100%. There are good points on both sides of this age argument, but to respond to the OP with "well, you are too immature because you are 18" is just not helpful. Obviously, the law in his state doesn't think so.

doc2rn
September 28, 2010, 01:52 PM
I got my first handgun that dad went in halves with me on at the Ace Small engine repair shop Feb 26, 1982 when I was 11. I had responsibilities and I worked to make a living every day I wasnt in school ie shoveling snow in the winter and painting houses or mowing grass in the summer. We where so po we couldnt afford the whole word! Yes my eager earnings often paid bills and bought groceries. Even the food I foraged for by fishing and hunting was prepaired for family meals.
If I could do all that and be trusted with a Ruger Standard at age 11 just think of what I could do by the time I was 18!

hardluk1
September 28, 2010, 01:58 PM
Tell your step pop to go to a big city and find the bad part of town and see how his version works out with no weapon.

Yoda
September 28, 2010, 02:03 PM
Tell you carry so you can be sure that he will have grandkids.

- - - Yoda

NavyLCDR
September 28, 2010, 02:03 PM
And his last argument is that he sees no reason at all for me carrying a concealed weapon.

In this country, there is a murder ever 1/2 hour. There is a violent crime of some type every 23.9 seconds. How can one predict when "their time is up". I would rather carry a gun for a million days and never need it, than not carry a gun one day and do need it. It's not about the odds, it's about the stakes. I am sorry that your step-father does not feel that your life is worth protecting.

Source: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/about/crime_clock.html

MikeNice
September 28, 2010, 02:08 PM
http://www.opencarry.org/age.html

Obviously, my source above needs some work.

I was refering to CC. Sorry for the confusion.

However,
Additionally, under NC Code Chapter 14 � 160A.189, a city may by ordinance ... regulate the display of firearms on the streets, sidewalks, alleys, or other public property.

Basicly OC is legal depending on what city you are in. It is often recomended that you don't even attempt to OC. In many places all it takes is one complaint to get you hauled down town. In many other citys it is not allowed at all. An act as simple as driving 1/2 a mile down the road can completely change the rules. That goes for OC on your body and in your car.

Plus many if not all counties limit pistol purchase permits to those 21 and older.

NC is a confusing state sometimes. Anybody in NC needs to read the laws for not only the state but the municipalities they regularly visit.

Sorry to hijack the thread. I will back out now.

sxechainsaw
September 28, 2010, 02:16 PM
Thanks for all the great responses. As to how I got my pistol it was gifted to me by my father who got me into shooting. In South Dakota one is not allowed to purchase a handgun until 21 but may own/posses one along with a CCW.

And I can agree with the "dumb teenager" argument to an extent but I've been shooting since 4 years old (or should I say dad held the .22 and I pulled the trigger :p) and I've been competing in pistol, rifle, and shotgun competitions since I was 12 so I believe I am at least experienced enough to be able to safely carry.

I hope to one day be able to bring my step dad to the range and have him get a first person account of why I'm so dedicated to the world of firearms. But it's gonna take A LOT of time and convincing.

Manco
September 28, 2010, 02:18 PM
There's quite a few videos online where robbers walk in on unarmed people who comply and are then executed.

Sure, many robbers don't care about human life, and they don't want any living witnesses. Not knowing or realizing this is a potentially deadly form of ignorance.

But sometimes people are just uncomfortable around guns when they aren't in control of them...kind of like when on a motorcycle, some people don't feel at ease when they aren't the ones driving.

That's true for some people, while for others--some of whom are among the most anti-gun of all--are uncomfortable when they ARE in control of guns, probably because they don't trust themselves in one way or another, and they project their own lack of competence and/or self-control and/or mental stability :D onto others (except for trained professionals, of course, who as everybody knows are infallible and will always come to your aid in seconds :uhoh:--no offense intended).

NavyLCDR
September 28, 2010, 02:32 PM
In South Dakota one is not allowed to purchase a handgun until 21 but may own/posses one along with a CCW.

There is no South Dakota statute limiting purchases of handguns to those 21 or over. There is no Federal statute limiting purchases of handguns to those 21 or over. The only restriction in South Dakota or Federal statute is that a holder of a Federal Firearms License cannot transfer a handgun to a person under 21. In South Dakota, handgun sales between private party residents of South Dakota are not required to be conducted through an FFL, therefore, sales/purchases of handguns between residents of South Dakota are legal at the age of 18 and up.

We have enough problems with real gun control laws. We don't need to be making up further restrictions that don't exist.

Source: http://legis.state.sd.us/statutes/DisplayStatute.aspx?Type=Statute&Statute=23-7-46

23-7-46. Prohibited transfer of firearms and ammunition to juveniles--Felony. No person may sell, transfer, give, loan, furnish, or deliver a firearm or firearm ammunition to any person under the age of eighteen years if such person knows or reasonably believes that the minor recipient of the transfer intended, at the time of transfer, to use the firearm or ammunition in the commission or attempted commission of a crime of violence as defined in subdivision 22-1-2(9). The affirmative defenses contained in chapter 23-7 do not apply to a prosecution under this section. A violation of this section is a Class 5 felony.

BBQLS1
September 28, 2010, 02:38 PM
My thoughts:

Age is only a number. Many years ago, 18 was a full grown adult and one may be responsible for a great deal at that age.

To the OP, 18 is young, remember to act and think with humility. Carrying a firearm is a serious responsibility for you and anyone else. To keep ourselves out of trouble, we should do our best to avoid it. We have to back down from fights, from people giving us the finger, from people cutting us off, etc. Every action you take can escalate a situation to actions that will be with you forever.

You or anyone else really doesn't know what anybody else is thinking. When confronted with deadly force (a knife), you have to act as if it will be used on you. The information you have is that you are presented with deadly force and you don't know the intent. It's irrational to rob someone when you can work for it, so it's not a leap for them to stab you. This doesn't mean that you pull and blaze away, running or driving may be the better option....

BBQLS1
September 28, 2010, 02:39 PM
Oh, you have to be 21 to get a CHL in Louisiana.

1swellguy
September 28, 2010, 02:48 PM
I hope your step dad does go with you to the gun range one day.

But until then, perhaps just play this video for him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5n7inTI1dc

If a retired street cop/detective thinks people should get their carry permit, stepdad should have no problem with it. The 911 calls on this YouTube are compelling proof.

Lou McGopher
September 28, 2010, 06:57 PM
What you should do is test his theory about an attacker coming at you with a knife.

For this, you will need the following:
2 sets of safety goggles
1 large magic marker
1 paintball pistol with ammunition
some sort of holster to hold the pistol on your hip

Directions:
You and your stepfather both put on the safety goggles. Wear old clothes that you don't mind getting stained.

Give your stepfather the magic marker. Have him uncap it. He may hold it however he wants.

You load the pistol and place it in the holster you are wearing.

Stand about 20 ft away from each other. Have your back to your stepdad.

Have your mom ring a bell or say "Go!" or whatever to signal the start of the exercise. When that happens, your step dad is to rush you and try to "stab" or "slash" at you with the magic marker. You are to unholster and turn around, and fire the paintball gun at your stepdad.

See who gets who first. See who delivers a "killing" shot/blow first. See if your shots are accurate, or whether go flying in such a manner that they could strike an innocent bystander. :)

JohnBiltz
September 28, 2010, 08:00 PM
Hmmm. I'm a bit torn. First of all the PC idea that all 18 year olds are as mature as older people is nonsense. You get older and you mature. There is pretty good physical evidence that an 18 year old male's brain is not even fully developed and the part that is undeveloped deals with things linked to maturity. When I was 18 I was jumping out of airplanes with an M60 machinegun strapped to my side. I'm not sure that made me mature but I thought it was pretty cool at the time. I spent 20 years supervising or supervising people directly supervising those 18-20 year olds in the military and while there are a lot of good words I can say about them mature is not at the top of that list. And after saying all that the 2d Amendment said nothing about being over 21 and I think a veteran should just be allowed to carry regardless of age because he or she earned it.

Webbj0219
September 28, 2010, 08:49 PM
the reason I try to carry all the time? This goes back to my highschool photography class. My teacher used to harp on use about taking the camera everywhere with you. Because its murphy's law that when the prize winning photo opp comes up you left it at home. I just apply that same logic to my pistol. Who's to say that the time I leave it at home is the time my life depends on it?
And the more I leave it at home the greater the chance I be caught unprepared.

lilquiz
September 28, 2010, 09:31 PM
Give your father this situation, which just happened in Mout Airy, Nc.. Store

clerk and hubby were having a chat and coffee in the wee hours of the

morning, robber walks in levels weapon at wife, and pulls the trigger. The

gun just went "click" as the robber tried to cycle the weapon, hubby drew

his concealled pistol and shot him. Tell step father it would be a perfect

world if we knew we would never have the need to carry or use them.

Mount Airy is Mayberry if you didn't know.... If it can happen there it can

happen anywhere.

Webbj0219
September 28, 2010, 09:42 PM
Ok I had to look this up from my fiances logic book from college. What your step dad tried to pull is an informal fallacy, an appeal to force. It uses the example from that christmas movie, where the kid wants a red ryder bb gun, and santa says he cant cause "Youll shoot your eye out, Kid". Thats an appeal to force. it appeals to fear rather than logic. Trying to creat fear in someone is not the same as evidence for an argument.

M-Cameron
September 28, 2010, 10:53 PM
unfortunately, fear rather than logic can also help people understand your point of view.....

example..


i just got my LTC the other day, told my dad about it and he asked if i planned on carrying a gun with me regularly.....to which i responded "yes"......well he goes off on how that makes him nervous and how he didnt want me to carry and what not........

well unfortunately, they just reported on the news about a horrible more or less execution of an entire family not to far from where i live.....

today i got a call from my dad asking if i still planned to carry.....to which i replied "yes"......and to which he responded "good, thats what i was hoping to hear"......

Salty1
September 28, 2010, 11:03 PM
Consider this a lesson learned, Having a CHL carries a lot of responsibility, you not only represent yourself you also represent the rest of us as well everytime you carry a firearm. Your license should be only devulged on a need to know basis or you will find yourself in this same scenerio time and time again. Keep it to yourself or you may very well find yourself on the uninvited list because of other peoples paranoia and lack of knowledge. If word gets out that a young 18 year old man is carrying what will stop somebody who could have an axe to grind from calling the local LEO with a man with gun report.... the risk of others knowing is not worth it, need to know plain and simple....

Packman
September 28, 2010, 11:57 PM
Have your mom ring a bell or say "Go!" or whatever to signal the start of the exercise. When that happens, your step dad is to rush you and try to "stab" or "slash" at you with the magic marker. You are to unholster and turn around, and fire the paintball gun at your stepdad.

See who gets who first. See who delivers a "killing" shot/blow first. See if your shots are accurate, or whether go flying in such a manner that they could strike an innocent bystander.

I'm a little bit unsure what you're getting at here, but I gather that you mean that sxechainsaw with the paint pistol will prevail. That's not neccesarily the case at all.

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm

http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/the-tueller-drill-revisited

Lou McGopher
September 29, 2010, 12:58 AM
That's not neccesarily the case at all.

True. I suppose before involving the paintball gun, they should try it without it, to see how well he can keep from getting marked using nothing but his bare hands.

Bottom line, chances are probably going to be better with the gun.

JTHunter
September 29, 2010, 01:22 AM
sxechainsaw - using your stepfather's scenario, I have to ask (tongue in cheek) - Why were you even IN a "dark alley" and why would there be an "innocent bystander" anywhere in the area ?? :what:

MinnMooney
September 29, 2010, 01:46 AM
to the O.P. :

Your step-dad must think that you can't hit the broadside of a barn and that the streets are totally filled with by-standers in that 2nd scenerio. I think that most people who have taken the time and thoughtful decision to get a carry permit have also given thought to hundreds if not thousands of various scenerios for if &/or when they might draw and fire their weapon.
Carrying a firearm is a huge responsibility and most take it that way. Your step-dad is woefully mistaken to believe those two outcomes from the two scenerios that he described.

JoeSlomo
September 29, 2010, 02:46 AM
There are THOUSANDS of teenagers running around with machine guns, grenade launchers, and other assorted various weaponry, doing the right thing EVERY day. Age is not the issue, as it is solely reliant on the individual. I WAS one of those teens back in the day, and I later lead those starting in 02' in Afghanistan, and Iraq.

I carry a firearm solely for defense. Period. There are evil people out there who do not value human life, and they are willing to destroy life using any means necessary to meet their goals.

While the possession of a firearm is NO guarantee that you can prevail against unwarranted violence, they can at least give you the chance you would NOT have without them.

lonegunman
September 29, 2010, 03:52 AM
I guess you would be against 18 year old persons being allowed to enter the military who choose to serve their country?

Interesting to note that more than 60% of the persons responsible for transporting nuclear missiles are 18 to 22 years old:
http://www.11alive.com/rss/rss_story...storyid=153559



ST. MARYS, Ga. (AP) - Congressman Jack Kingston says there is support among military leaders for proposed legislation to allow service members under 21 to drink beer and wine at base restaurants and clubs.

Kingston says military brass are reluctant to publicly express their opinion, but that they unofficially agree with the proposal.

Kingston says he plans to hold public meetings on the issue. The legislation would prohibit the consumption of alcohol anywhere other than designated establishments on bases.

Kingston says about 60 percent of sailors serving on nuclear submarines are between the ages of 18 and 22 and active-duty soldiers have a 90 percent chance of being sent to Iraq or Afghanistan.

I was the unit armorer for my national guard unit at the age of 18 in charge of 200 M-16's, 20 M-60 .30 Cal Machine Guns, and 8 or so .50 Cal M-2's, and around 20 M1911s. Not to mention M-203 grenade launchers, and if we ever went on active duty in combat, all kinds of grenades and Claymore anti-personnel mines.


Having spent the better part of three decades in the military I have no problem whatsoever with armed 18 year olds. It might of course be different in other branches of the service but we supervised them in the Air Force, Air National Gurard and even in the Army units that I spent considerable time with they were supervised in some fashion.

I was qualified with rifle, pistol and/or machinegun in all five branches of the service at one time or another. The range time is extensive and I spent considerable time on ranges as an RO, competitive shooter, coach or assisting in weapons training. Our unit shooting team offered range days for airmen who failed at basic weapons quals and who wanted more training before they deployed to war zones. We have the ROE and use of force training in every branch of service as well. An armed 18y/o serviceman or woman is well ahead of most teenagers.

This particular young man is not in the military, never has been and probably never will be if the national averages hold true. Whatever time he spent on the Xbox or PS3 does not qualify him for anything related to the military or to carry a gun. Just because something is legal does not mean it is intelligent or that you are qualified to do it.

My point is the same as always. If you want to be 18 and carry a gun you need to be a better person. Better trained, more aware and you need to use good judgement all the time. Just like behavior in the military reflects on the overall perception of the military. The behavior of this 18y/o gun owner reflects on all gun owners, especially young ones.

I imagine nothing could be worse than proving that step father right. That would make Thanksgiving miserable for years to come.

jbh13
September 29, 2010, 10:47 AM
I think the orignal topic on this thread was why do you carry and explaination to a stepfather who was against it.

My thoughts are, being a parent myself, I would like to be there for my kids. Be there for the birthdays, all the firsts, etc and I would need to give myself the tools to survive. I've seen pictures and heard stories from LE about knife attackers and I know some hand to hand combat techniques but criminals don't care about what happens to them, they are only thinking about what they need to get out of the robbery, stabbing, killing or whatnot.
To all those against concealed carry, including my own mom, guns are tools, knives are tools, and there's nothing like the right tool for the job.

Vyacheslav
September 29, 2010, 11:53 AM
How did this thread turn into a discussion about the OP being competent enough to carry handgun? he is probably much more mature than most of you saying he's a dumb teenager and is going to get arrested or is going to go around telling people about his ccw

Gouranga
September 29, 2010, 01:09 PM
First of all, it is VERY likely the OP or any of us would miss our intended target and hit something beyond the target. I would also like you to point out to your step father that police I am sure he thinks them the super deluxe experts) hit < 30% of their intended targets because of the effects of stress of a real life situation.

Second there are AMPLE cases on the web of clerks, taxi driver, car jacking victims, home invasions, etc where unarmed innocent victim who fully comply with the criminal are killed. Also, what about murderers, serial killer, etc who entire point in dealing with you was to kill you. I seem to remember a sniper in the DC area, VT, University of Texas, Boston, and a killer in Gafney, SC recently. Tons more where that list came from. How about the church shooting that was stopped by a member with a CCW.

No an age does not make you mature. I know 40 yr olds I wold not trust with a pellet gun. I know 16 year olds who compete that could out shoot me any day of the week.

For the OP, I would ask, how much training have you had? How many rounds do you run through your weapon? You may very well have more than the average LEO. My personal opinion was when I got my CCW and began carrying out in the world it was my responsibility to practice and stay proficient with my carry weapon. I have 2 members of my family who have been LEOs for 20 years each. In 3 months I put more rounds downrange than they do all year combined.

Lastly, you are arguing against what I call "biased ignorance". From what you posted sounds like he has made up his mind to believe what he wants with obviously flawed logic and he is not wavering from it. You might take him aside, man to man with nobody around and less pride to worry about and calmly discuss his opinion. May do something may just get you both ticked.

I would say though that is those are his opinions, he IS anti-gun as is the girlfriend. You do not use a lethal weapon to wound. It is a dangerous and stupid notion. I carry OC spray so I have a less lethal option that can be used with a reasonable expectation that I am not going to kill most folks by using it (though some folks have in fact been killed by OC spray). When/If my gun comes out of the holster, it is an extreme lethal weapon and that is what it is being used for, applying lethal force.

To expect that you can use a firearm to wound, i.e. use less than lethal force, is ignorant, and dangerous. It does not recognize the responsibility you take on when you carry CCW, and more importantly when that weapon leaves the holster. If you GF or step father seem to think otherwise, then they definitely should not carry, ever.

Vitrophyre
September 29, 2010, 01:51 PM
You could make up infinite scenarios of how you could accidentally kill someone. It's obviously a serious risk and something a stressed shooter has to be conscious of. The only important fact here is that you carry to protect yourself as well as other innocent people. If you one day saved their lives they wouldn't hold the same opinion. Make sure you know how to shoot that thing, and stay confident.

DPris
September 29, 2010, 02:58 PM
Why bother to argue about it?
Why is it important to either convert him or to justify yourself?
Do what you do quietly & responsibly, don't discuss it, and get on with life.

I have several relatives & acquaintances who don't believe in gun ownership at all. It matters not in the slightest, I do what I do & simply don't bring the subject up. Most of them don't even realize I have a firearm on me when they see me, and quite a few of the in-laws don't realize they've never seen me without one off my own property.

Some battles are worth fighting, some are not.
Denis

lonegunman
September 30, 2010, 05:05 AM
How did this thread turn into a discussion about the OP being competent enough to carry handgun? he is probably much more mature than most of you saying he's a dumb teenager and is going to get arrested or is going to go around telling people about his ccw


I some how doubt I'm less mature than an 18y/o but you go ahead and think that. As far as why I carry and gun and avoid telling people about it or walking into trouble. I do that because it is both prudent and smart. I managed to defend myself several times over the years, a gun is very useful when you have the resolve to use it. My gun went to college so much it should have gotten a degree as well.

I support self defense and carry a gun because I've been on the end of a 50 minute emergency response from a deadweight police department full of deadweight cops.(they managed to cover the ONE mile from their station to my house in the speed or a turtle) After you have been toe to toe with a drug crazed 19y/o loser who just beat someone half to death in the street and is now focused on you because you dialed 911 and nobody showed up, you learn to love your CCW. I'd just as soon wait for a monkey with a gun to fall from the sky as hope for police assistance.

JFtheGR8
September 30, 2010, 11:58 AM
I read a few of the posts before I considered chiming in.

One of my favorite sayings when I speak of concealed carry here in Illinois (which is not legal for a private citizen regardless of age contrary to what someone stated in a previous post) is "The police are only minutes away when seconds count."

The op, of whom I do not know, whether mature or not should seek training PRIOR to carrying concealed or otherwise. This does not seem to be the case as they have just turned 18 and can only now legally own a handgun where they live.

I also do not believe that an 18 year old is tempered enough to walk away and not take part in escalating things to the point of no return. I am sure that most 18 year olds would also tell their buddies that they carry a gun and before long it would no longer be a secret (ie: concealed).

As for 18 year olds serving our great country: They receive extensive training to do so and mature greatly during the process unlike most civilian 18 year olds.

springmom
September 30, 2010, 12:24 PM
As to how I got my pistol it was gifted to me by my father who got me into shooting. In South Dakota one is not allowed to purchase a handgun until 21 but may own/posses one along with a CCW.


Ah. Well, you have probably thought of this, but any lingering family tension between dad and stepdad may also account for some of this.

Let it go. Be a good ambassador for safe gun handling (obviously you've been well trained in this), and remember that "concealed means concealed". But don't argue it at your mom's dinner table. You won't get anywhere, you won't change his mind, and you'll mess up everybody's enjoyment of your mom's cooking. :D

Jan

NavyLCDR
September 30, 2010, 12:45 PM
+10000 ^^^^^^ Listen to mom!

wheelgunslinger
September 30, 2010, 01:36 PM
Yeah, what Springmom said.

I would only add that a lot of people at this point in your life think you should listen to them because they've been sucking air longer than you.
It's not true.
Think for yourself and follow your own moral compass as you already have been. There will always be a guy like that Stepdad somewhere.

Davek1977
October 1, 2010, 06:13 AM
I find the comments equating age and maturity to be out of line and unfounded. You cannot possibly know enough about this young man to make any sort of determination of his ability to safely handle firearms based on his age alone. I too am from SD, and I too had a permit@18. The law saw me fit to carry at that point, so I did, and continue to, 15 years later, with no issues whatsoever. i also had unsupervised access to firearms not only at 18, but 12-13! The family gun cabinet was inches from my bed, and due to the responsibility I showed with firearms, my access to them was never denied or controlled. i was free to take and shoot any gun once I was trained with it in regards to proper operation and safety. If he does something immature or stupid with his gun, he should face approparate consequences. Until then, its really no one's damn business if he's 18 or 81. If he can carry safely and responsibily....and at this point we have nothing indicating that isn't possible or even probable..... he should be allowed to carry under the laws of our state. Its not up to a bunch of internet commandos to determine whether they believe he should have that right or not. he already has it, and has chosen to exercise it. he hsould be commended for the choice, not mocked because of his age.

Jonah71
October 1, 2010, 11:20 AM
I refuse to argue with people on this issue. You are NOT going to change their minds. And most of the people I encounter that want to argue the point have never owned or even shot a gun. They are clueless. Why waste breath on them? Unless you are discussing the point with someone that has a working and personal knowledge of firearms and they simply have a different point of view.... it's futile.

JellyJar
October 1, 2010, 12:26 PM
Sxechainsaw

In the strictest meaning of the word "danger" your father is correct. However, he is also incorrect. All need to understand that there is no such thing as perfect safety. It is an illusion. Seatbelts are dangerous because they can trap you in a car that is on fire or sinking in water. However, overall wearing a seatbelt is much safer than not wearing one.

Every thing that is good has some danger associated with it. We do not do away with seatbelts or other good things just because there is a small risk of danger. In life we have to choose not between things that are totally safe and things that are totally dangerous but between what is more safe or more dangerous. So for you and everybody else what is safer; for you to CCW or not.

The exact same arguments that your father uses to argue against you CCWing can also be used against allowing a policeman to carry. Police are not perfect and are just as capable of hurting innocent bystanders should they be forced to fire their weapons as anyone. However, with proper training, it is much safer for all the rest of us if the police have firearms.

As long as you have the necessary skills and judgment needed for using your CCW weapon than it is safer for you and everyone else for you to CCW. If you don't have the skills and necessary judgment then no.

Do you have the necessary skills and judgment? If not please get the proper training ASAP.

psyopspec
October 1, 2010, 12:47 PM
I start talking about my concealed pistol.

There's a time and a place for this. The time is never. I'll let you figure out the place.

As to the age issue, I need to extend a big old pat on the back to many of the members here who realize how immature folks under-21 are. You see, I grew up in a state that was shall issue, and I got a permit at the age of 19. This was after returning from serving in Iraq, where I was unsupervised with an M-16 and a grenade launcher for most of the tour. Anywho, the reason I owe this group of members thanks is that I wasn't even legal to go into the VFW where I was a member and have a beer. Without your prejudicial laws, I may have been exposed to alcohol below the arbitrary age of 21; this would have been terrible as nothing could have possibly prepared me for that.

I can't wait until I reach the age of 40 so I can recognize my own maturity to the point of dictating an arbitrary age for others. It'll be great fun, eh chums?

gbw
October 1, 2010, 01:58 PM
There's a time and a place for this. The time is never. I'll let you figure out the place.

Yes. Good for you.

As to the age issue, I need to extend a big old pat on the back to many of the members here who realize how immature folks under-21 are. You see, I grew up in a state that was shall issue, and I got a permit at the age of 19. This was after returning from serving in Iraq, where I was unsupervised with an M-16 and a grenade launcher for most of the tour.

Iraq is a war zone. Did you just at 18 hop a flight to Baghdad, get some guns, and cruise the countryside? No.

Should we assume instead that you were closely observed and extensively trained for several months before you were sent?

Whatever, when you got there the U.S. issued you a rifle and a grenade launcher.

Were you then free to take those weapons and go where you wished?
Whenever you wanted?
No one of higher rank anywhere around?
Because that’s what ‘unsupervised’ means.

If I'm wrong I apologize, but sorry, I don’t believe it.

And did you notice that before you left Iraq you had to return the weapons?
And did you note also that, in general, you are not allowed by the military to carry any weapons anywhere in the U.S. (yes, there are exceptions, they are few).


Without your prejudicial laws, I may have been exposed to alcohol below the arbitrary age of 21; this would have been terrible as nothing could have possibly prepared me for that.

So what exactly are you saying?
All arbitrary age laws are wrong?
Would you let all 19 year olds buy beer or carry a gun? All 16 year olds?
You seem to be saying yes, but I can't believe you really mean that. Wherever you draw the line, it’s arbitrary.

I can't wait until I reach the age of 40 so I can recognize my own maturity to the point of dictating an arbitrary age for others. It'll be great fun, eh chums?

Last try. Those ‘prejudicial arbitrary’ age rules exist for sound reasons. In general they are right and their wisdom is proven by experience. If you’ll notice, they are only bypassed where circumstances allow for carful, extended training and screening. Giving every 18 y/o who asks for one a gun permit doesn’t qualify. For those states which allow it, well we just disagree. I'd make it 21 minimum and require real training and background checks.

Ole Coot
October 2, 2010, 12:01 PM
I grew up with guns in KY, drafted at 18 so I can only give my observation. I have known young folks that I would trust to carry and older ones that should never touch a firearm. The first thing you need to learn is awareness and don't place yourself in a position of needing a firearm. A handgun isn't a quick fix to an attack, the real problem is after you use it. I have trained for many years and knowing when to draw your weapon is very important. I do recommend simple, basic training with or without improvised weapons as sometimes you will be where you can't carry or can't retrieve your handgun. I don't need it but I carry a cane and it is legal everywhere and at my age, never questioned. It is as lethal as I want it to be at close range. I carry an assisted opener behind my belt buckle so I can draw it with either hand. It's easy to pull a trigger and maybe it feels good at the time, but think long and hard about the consequences.

sig220mw
October 2, 2010, 12:16 PM
Step dad is obviously an "anti" and their arguments are almost always silly. They always speak from emotion and that emotion is usually hatred of guns but not always necessarily of the person. The bottom line is being an "anti" he speaks with "authority" about a subject he knows nothing about. Most "antis" couldn't tell the difference between an auto and a revolver but they think they know it all.

I would decline to speak to him at all about it since it is none of his business anyway.

armoredman
October 2, 2010, 12:31 PM
I wish to add my voice to those who say, just let it go. He is anti, and obviously set against firearms, so let it be. Don't ruiin the times you have with your mother with arguments - there will be a time when you look back and wish your parents were still there to talk to.
To those who posted about AZ laws, yes, under 21 may not carry concealed, 18-21 may carry openly without issue, and 16-18 may carry with some restrictions. Those restrictions were passed after I reached the age of majority. I have legally carried a sidearm since the age of 16 in this state, no issues.
Good luck to you in your endeavors, sir.

psyopspec
October 2, 2010, 04:08 PM
Should we assume instead that you were closely observed and extensively trained for several months before you were sent?

You can assume whatever you like. I'm going to go ahead and assume that you haven't spent any time in uniform. This is not meant as a dig; you just don't seem to have a grasp of how the military currently works. When I think of supervising a juvenile with a gun, I picture being on a range ensuring that safety rules are followed at all times and shooting with the goal of improving marksmanship and having a good time. What I just got back from doing in Afghanistan involved "supervising" from up to 100 miles away for small teams. By title I was their supervisor, but I couldn't check their chambers and tell them where to point the guns even if I wanted to.

Just because folks of a higher rank are around doesn't automatically make them supervisors to others, nor will they act as such. This can be a good thing. A full bird colonel wearing a shoulder holster down to his knee isn't someone I want giving tactical directions to my guys.

Whatever, when you got there the U.S. issued you a rifle and a grenade launcher.

Were you then free to take those weapons and go where you wished?

You'd be surprised. Much like now, I can't carry in prohibited places stateside. I couldn't take a care load of buddies with long guns and cruise down to Mexico. However, that doesn't mean that I'm supervised by my local constabulary and by the Border Guards. Basically, I'm saying that having restrictions placed on one's movement and use of property by an authority figure is not tantamount to supervising.

No, we did not just hop in a vehicle and roll randomly through the countryside. However, this had nothing to do with my "supervisors," as I wouldn't find such a move advisable under any circumstances in Iraq at that time. Same with Afghanistan. I never told my guys "Don't go off on your lonesome for a joyride." There's still a handful of folks left with a shred of common sense I guess.


If I'm wrong I apologize, but sorry, I don’t believe it.

It's the internet. Making believers in anything by this medium isn't a goal of mine.

And did you notice that before you left Iraq you had to return the weapons?
And did you note also that, in general, you are not allowed by the military to carry any weapons anywhere in the U.S. (yes, there are exceptions, they are few).

Actually, I didn't notice that. Weapons were issued a couple months prior to deployment and turned in when we got back. Same thing this time around.


Quote:
Without your prejudicial laws, I may have been exposed to alcohol below the arbitrary age of 21; this would have been terrible as nothing could have possibly prepared me for that.
So what exactly are you saying?
All arbitrary age laws are wrong?
Would you let all 19 year olds buy beer or carry a gun? All 16 year olds?
You seem to be saying yes, but I can't believe you really mean that. Wherever you draw the line, it’s arbitrary.

I'm saying, as many others have, that I met plenty of folks both military and civilian of a broad age category who ought not be allowed to handle weapons, and plenty of younger folks both military and civilian whom I would trust 100% with a weapon. Briefly thinking about it now, I would say that yes, I believe that all arbitrary age laws are wrong. Can you safely pass a written and practical driving test? Get a license. Don't want your child abusing alcohol as a youngster? Try actually being a parent and see if that works. Voting I would take a different angle to: Must own property, have given of civil or military service, or be employed to the point of self-sufficiency (no welfare recipients). I don't believe that those who are in the best position to drive the system into the ground to give themselves a leg up deserve to be piloting the ship. Contractual obligations are the one thing I can't immediately develop an alternative to; perhaps it doesn't need one as we've gone into a different realm. Certainly a 6 year old or a person adjudicated mentally defective should not be entering into contracts.

Bottom line, I fundamentally disagree with arbitrary age laws.

Quote:
I can't wait until I reach the age of 40 so I can recognize my own maturity to the point of dictating an arbitrary age for others. It'll be great fun, eh chums?
Last try. Those ‘prejudicial arbitrary’ age rules exist for sound reasons. In general they are right and their wisdom is proven by experience. If you’ll notice, they are only bypassed where circumstances allow for carful, extended training and screening. Giving every 18 y/o who asks for one a gun permit doesn’t qualify. For those states which allow it, well we just disagree. I'd make it 21 minimum and require real training and background checks.

I never received any of the careful, extended training and screening that you describe when I got my permit at 19. I got it the same way everyone else did in a shall issue state, meet the minimum requirements, pay the fee, and wait by the mailbox.

We've reached a point in the debate where we can cross from the philosophical to the evidential. Since you're making the claim that the laws exist for good reasons, please provide some examples. If you are making your case as a man of logic, and believe that folks 18-21 should not carry, I'm looking for a list of incidents from you that specifically shows 18-21 year olds with carry permits abusing the government-regulated privilege.

Slamdunk case on your part if you can provide this.

Also, for your situational awareness, if you look at many European countries where alcohol age limits are very low, unenforced, or non-existent, you'll find that they have lower rates of youth alcohol abuse than we do in the States. I suspect there are other factors at play here (culture being a big one both in practice and in the implementation of the laws, for example). However, arbitrary age limits will not protect people from themselves any more successfully than drug laws have.

Joe Demko
October 2, 2010, 05:02 PM
I amazed that so many members have been able to conclude that the OP is a mature, trustworthy individual and that his step-dad is an idiot based on a couple posts. Just for starters, we're only getting one side of the story. Mom and step-dad know the OP far better than any of us here. If their judgement is that he isn't mature enough to carry a gun, I'd defer to their superior knowledge of the OP as a person.
Frankly, I'd say this is more about friction between the OP and step-dad than it is about anything else. Since I don't know either of them, I'll hold off on saying who is mature and who is an idiot.

GUNNAR2001
October 2, 2010, 06:28 PM
I am of the opinion that it is best to not tell anyone that you carry a concealed weapon. The only people who should find out are the types in the 2 scenarios you outlined.

The simplified answer to scenario one is that the attacker should not have time to get angry or change tactics before you “remove the threat”. While no particular outcome is guaranteed, training is the logical answer to both scenarios as far as greatly increasing the odds in your favor. That said, what are you doing to train yourself for a potentially life threatening situation? Range practice at 50 or even 25 ft. will not get you where you need to be IMHO. Get some advanced combat focused shooting training. While one on one training would be preferable, the NRA has a good multi-DVD set to get you started; The Personal Firearm Defense Series.

Hot brass
October 2, 2010, 07:13 PM
I some of the first page and stopped reading.

There you go, brag that you carry. Smart.

XxWINxX94
October 2, 2010, 07:19 PM
California, Nevada, Arizona, Oregon, Idaho, Colorado, Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota, Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois, Mississippi, Alabama, North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, Kentucky, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Montana, Wyoming, Louisiana, Missouri, New Hampshire, Maine, Vermont, AND Alaska.


Wisconsin and Illinois do not allow a civilian to carry a firearm in all places normally allowed. Law Says: (4) Carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except when on his land or in his abode or fixed place of business any pistol, revolver, stun gun, taser or other firearm.” 720 ILCS 5/24-1(a)(4)(West 1994).

So only on your land or "fixed place of bussiness"

lonegunman
October 10, 2010, 04:04 PM
I find the comments equating age and maturity to be out of line and unfounded. You cannot possibly know enough about this young man to make any sort of determination of his ability to safely handle firearms based on his age alone.

http://www.kxly.com/news/25342851/detail.html

http://www.kxly.com/news/25339896/detail.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFMs2w9Qexg


While I'm sure most 18y/o kids are as mature and probably far smarter, better paid and have better judgement than everyone else, there seem to be so few of them running the country that I am forced to occasionally wonder when they are going to step up and save us from ourselves. I too was one of the world's smartest 18y/o kids.


Oh yeah, maybe they were all overdosing on roofies when duty called? or maybe they crashed on the way to the White House? I'm betting the guy in link #3 will not be a stellar adult in two years and I can't imagine him with a gun and see anything positive.

archigos
October 10, 2010, 04:26 PM
Bigotry is not high road.

lonegunman
October 10, 2010, 05:01 PM
Where do you get that last comment?

Like many people over 40, I have heard plenty from opinionated teenagers who claim to know more than the rest of us. Someone having a negative opinion of your CCW when you announce it at the dinner table might suprise an 18y/o for instance. A more seasoned adult would have simply kept his CCW to him or herself and avoided the whole thing.

Does that mean all 18 year olds are in some way bad? Not at all and nobody said that. Does this mean 18 year olds should not be allowed CCW's? Nope, that is the general opinion of both sides of the discussion. When you happen to be 18, carrying a gun and trying to have an adult conversation with someone who appears to be both anti-gun and set in their ways you better get used to disappointment. You won't be changing their opinion.

I linked some examples of behavior and trouble that are more likely to occur when you are young. I live in a town with four universities, two community colleges and a military base, young people seem to manage plenty of mischief that the rest of us, "old geezers" gave up on years ago. Not many 50 year olds out there ODing on Viagra or street racing these days, I have not seen a 45 y/o beating his gag gift with a bat, pretty much ever.

archigos
October 10, 2010, 05:23 PM
Your entire line of discussion is unproductive. Everybody knows that there are young people who do irresponsible things. Everybody knows that there are elderly people who are irresponsible drivers. Everybody knows that there are Muslims who are terrorists, and everybody knows that there are women who get jobs for looks instead of ability.
You don't need to prove these facts to anyone. Referencing articles to try and "prove that adolescents are irresponsible" is not necessary. However, the notion that a group itself possesses one of these negative traits is the definition bigotry. Attempting to promote bigotry is at the very least not High Road, and at the very worst a clear act of evil.

I apologize if its not what you had intended to do, but the tone of your post to the casual observer appears to be targeting a group, not individuals. I accept this no more than when the Brady Bunch references a psycho and tries to associate their actions with gun owners as a group.

Walkalong
October 10, 2010, 05:37 PM
"Targeting" an age group is not bigotry. More like stereotyping. That said, certain age groups come with certain opinions many have about them. Some of them are true, and some are not. Not all young people are irresponsible, and not all older folks are mature.

I have met morons with guns who are 18 to 80. I have also met very responsible gun owners from 18 to 80.

That said, age usually brings more wisdom and maturity with it, and young people usually need time to get more experience in things.

What was the discussion?

lonegunman
October 10, 2010, 05:43 PM
Maybe my dictionary is old and opinionated as well. But the word Bigotry used to mean "one who holds blindly or intolerantly to a particular creed or opinion" according to my old Webster's dictionary.

I have expressed my personal opinion. It is based on experience and facts available from places as mundane as the National Safety Council. I don't hold it blindly nor was it created in a vacuum. There are reasons people tend to question eighteen year olds a bit more than thirty year olds, most of them are related to experience and knowledge. Experience is aquired over time.

I'm going to have to disagree with your name calling, that does not seem to "High Road" to me. Your dictionary might need a bit of work as well.

TexasRifleman
October 10, 2010, 06:06 PM
Not a lot of reason for this to continue at this point.

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