S&W M&P45 vs Glock 21


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Ben86
September 28, 2010, 02:49 PM
I'd like to collect some opinions on these two guns. I am trying to decide on which is going to be my first .45. I have a couple months to decide which one I want, so I'm trying to really make an informed decision on this one.

I'm a big Glock fan, but I've also shot the M&P9C and M&P40C in the past and have a high opinion them. As far as I see it the M&P has better ergos going for it and the Glock has familiarity. I'm stuck and can't seem to decide. I shoot both well, with maybe a slight advantage going to the M&P. Any thoughts or opinions of comparison would be appreciated.

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LeLynn
September 28, 2010, 05:30 PM
In my opinion, both are very reliable pistols. You stated that the M&P wins is the ergonomics department (I feel the same way). As or familiarity, both are quite simple, and while you may be more familiar with the Glock, the M&P will take little time to become familiar with. My vote is for the M&P, simply because I prefer the ergos over the Glocks, plus the fact that I reload in order to keep training/practice costs down and you are not supposed to reload for Glocks (I know people will argue this point). I have shot both but chose to buy the M&P. Good luck with whatever you decide on, both are great guns in there own way.

bds
September 28, 2010, 07:03 PM
If you go with M&P45, I highly recommend the Apex sear or trigger job.

M&P45 has much better ergonomic controls and less felt recoil.

If you reload, especially lead, M&P has tight chamber and barrel that do not lead with Missouri Bullets with the proper load (i.e. 5.0 gr W231/HP38). M&P45 feeds/chambers 200 gr SWC very well.

Although Glock mags are cheaper, you get two free mags M&P purchase.

postalnut25
September 29, 2010, 06:50 AM
A G21 is one of the only guns I've ever sold. Not that it didn't perform, but it was just too big. I bought an M&P 45 for a girlfiend, and the grip size being ssmaller made it easier to shoot well. Both have had zero reliablity or accuracy issues. It was based completely on the feel of the gun.

Full Metal Jacket
September 29, 2010, 06:56 AM
i had the mp45c. never jammed, even with corbon +p 165gr jhp sierras.

also owned a g21sf that never jammed either.

the glock trigger is superior. the mp45's come with a heavier pull than the 9/40 mp's for some reason. the pull really sucks. not sure how much better the apex sear makes it.

bds
September 29, 2010, 09:13 AM
not sure how much better the apex sear makes it.
A lot. Factory M&P45 trigger pull is 7 lbs.

Factory sear has an oval shaped front area that trigger bar glides under to push back on the striker and release to fire. This is the source of the heavy pull you experience when you pull the trigger. Apex hard sear removes about 1/3 of this contact area to lighten the pull to 4 lbs and smooth out the trigger pull. Also, the back of sear that rides against the striker release is more rounded for more crisp release.

I did about 50% of trigger job (http://www.burwellguns.com/M&Ptriggerjob1.htm) matching the angle of the Apex sear and polishing all trigger contact surfaces, including a slight rounding of the back of the sear. Now, the trigger pull is more like 4.5-5.0 lbs of my G22 and it is much more smooth and has cleaner release.

I ran through about 2000+ dry/range fire trigger pull cycles and shot groups were around 3" at 10 yards. After the 50% trigger/polish job, my shot groups shrank less than 1"-2" at 10 yards. I had several people shoot the M&P45 after the trigger job and they confirm that it is better than their Glock triggers.

bartman06
September 29, 2010, 09:18 AM
I traded my G21 for my M&P 45. I really liked the Glock but love my M&P. The only big difference i thought besides the ergos is the mag capacity. I did the apex sear and its really smoothed out the trigger. Both are great guns but my pick is the M&P.

legion3
September 29, 2010, 09:25 AM
Other than some rust issues with M&P's (and not all were old versions soem were as recent as 2009) the M&P trigger is different from a Glock in the trigger reset department. If, like me, you are used to shooting the Glock via the trigger reset then the M&P's trigger might bother you somewhat.

The M&P to me feels like it has no reset whatsoever, a full trigger stroke is required (similar to the Beretta PX4) to fire the gun again.

If you don't use the trigger reset then the M&P should not bother you.

Also I don't get the ergo's argument? I understand it for the grip angle, which does not bother me or apparently lots of shooters world wide, but I have not ever had an M&P that felt great in my hand. To much palm swell for me.

I assume I could monkey with it to get the palm swell down but for me why? I like other guns that do the same job.

bds
September 29, 2010, 09:44 AM
The Apex sear or the trigger job reduces the trigger reset comparable to Glock trigger reset. It really makes a huge difference.

Prion
September 29, 2010, 10:58 AM
M&P +1

Taroman
September 29, 2010, 11:56 AM
Flame suit on.
Not a 21, but I have owned/carried a Glock 30 since they first came out. In the LGS, I handled the M&P 45. Wow, perfect ergos. Love at first touch.
It shot very well after I spent the $$ for an Apex kit.
But-no matter what load, commercial, or reload, I tried, in my hands the Glock always shot a bit better.
End of story, the M&P was traded off even before the "free" magazines arrived from S&W.

MTMilitiaman
September 29, 2010, 12:10 PM
I'd go with the Glock. Keeping in mind I own a Glock 20 instead of a Glock 21, and have no experience with the S&W...

Glock magazines and parts are cheaper and more readily available. Glock 21 mags can be had for about $22 and found nearly anywhere, S&W M&P45 mags run about 50% more and while not scarce by any means, have no where near the availability. So sure the S&W may come with one more, but if you're trying to get a proper set of five, the Glock will be cheaper and easier to do it with. The Glock also has a host of OEM and aftermarket parts available. The Glock is simple enough that the vast majority can be installed by the user at home in minutes with little in the way of tools. I don't know if the same can be said about the S&W. And in the future, a trip through cyber-space to LoneWolf Dist will open a whole new universe to you with a Glock 21--it's modularity is unparalleled in the pistol world. An extended threaded .45 ACP barrel for a future suppressor? Check. A longslide 10mm Auto upper? 200 gr XTPs at 1400 fps? Check. Or you could go with a Guncrafter .50 GI conversion. So many options with the Glock that the S&W can't touch. Probably more for holster options too cause the Glock has been around a while.

Ben86
September 29, 2010, 12:43 PM
The trigger on the m&ps don't really bother me, I'm perfectly happy with the trigger of my kahr pm9. That is a rather long, heavy, mushy trigger with a loooong reset. But, its really smooth and I shoot it well, and that's all that really matters. Although I must say I do prefer the glock trigger because of its predictable, clean break. I'm going to look into the apex thing.

Before I can buy this .45 I have to buy my wife the m&p9C that she has her heart set on. This will give me a good medium to verify what I personally thing of the m&p platform versus the glock platform.

It is kind of a bummer that the m&p has less aftermarket support. But, as its popularity continues to rise I'm sure that will change.

The capacity of the m&p45 is somewhat lacking. But, I suppose that's the necessary trade of for a thinner grip. Which I suppose is worth it if you shoot the gun better.

fastbolt
September 29, 2010, 12:50 PM
If you shoot both well, do you shoot either of them well more easily?

I have a M&P 45 full-size which has seen a bit more than 3K rounds through it. The trigger on the M&P 45 is typically 7 lbs with a +/- 2 lbs tolerance (versus the 6 1/2 lb +/- 2 lbs of the other calibers). When I checked mine NIB I got some averaged readings on my digital gauge of 8 1/2 - 9+ lbs, which is obviously on the heavy end.

That did not, however, prevent me from experiencing excellent accuracy. I just had to work at it a bit harder. I was shooting a G21SF about the same time, belonging to another instructor, and while the G21 had a trigger which felt a bit lighter, it also felt stiffer and didn't have the same predictable 'break' as the M&P. I could shoot the G21SF well, but I had to work harder at it than the M&P with the heavier trigger. One of those weird situations that sometimes happen. ;)

Now, after I'd run about 2,500 rounds through my M&P45 I noticed that I received a revised striker assembly in a parts order one day. My trigger had already become much smoother and seemingly lighter, although I hadn't checked it on the gauge again, but I was curious how the new striker assembly might feel (if any different), so I replaced the original one with the new one. It felt pretty nice, and seemed even a bit smoother and lighter, even though the new assembly had a new striker spring (versus the one which had seen some usage in the original assembly).

I finally got out the digital gauge and ran a couple of averaged trigger weight using the new striker assembly. I got readings of 5 1/2 - 6 lbs. Nice. Bear in mind that this is in stock conditions, too.

I tried a 2010 production M&P 45c recently and found the trigger felt lighter and smoother than mine had felt NIB. I didn't have my digital gauge at the range so I couldn't check the actual weight of the trigger, though. It was better than mine had been, however.

I'm planning to order a M&P 45c of my own in the coming months.

Also, a couple of the guys are planning to order the Apex sear and try it in their M&P 45's, so I'll see what difference it makes compared to the stock sear.

One thing I suppose I could mention is that the instructor who owns the G21SF I mentioned was curious about the M&P 45, so I let him use it one day. He's a Glock owner/shooter and had been working trying to improve his accuracy with the G21 for several weeks. The first time he tried the M&P 45 he did much better, more easily, than he was able top do with his G21SF. he ordered a M&P 45 of his own shortly afterward. He's keeping the G21SF last I heard, at least for the time being, as he likes .45's and doesn't mind owning each of them ... but he's pretty enthusiastic about the M&P 45.

I think the M&P 45 is going to be a strong seller for S&W.

I also think that each person ought to decide for themselves which they prefer.

As an armorer for both Glock and the M&P there are features I like on each. However, I tend to like the Glock best when chambered in 9mm, and the M&P best when chambered in .45 ACP. That's just me, though.

Luck with you and your decision. ;)

Thaddeus Jones
September 29, 2010, 01:06 PM
Another vote for the Glock 21.

I agree with the comments on the M&P's trigger, and the indistinct reset also.

Yes, I know you can order an "Apex kit". Why should I have to do that for what S&W charges for their M&P??

Other than to law enforcement, its not like they are giving them away. :)

Prion
September 29, 2010, 01:25 PM
Yes, I know you can order an "Apex kit". Why should I have to do that for what S&W charges for their M&P??

Because it's cheaper than the surgery you'll need to match your wrist angle to the Glock's grip angle:p

Seriously though, M&P's aren't overpriced in my experience.

Plus, doing mods to ones guns is a time honored tradition and it's fun!

Get the M&P!

legion3
September 29, 2010, 02:25 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=544423&highlight=M%26P+rust

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=538633


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=517297&highlight=M%26P+rust

jmr40
September 29, 2010, 03:45 PM
If you're used to the Glock stay with the Glock platform. Nothing wrong with the S&W. I had one for a while. Good gun, but it does nothing the Glock won't do. It holds 3 fewer rounds and mags are more expensive.

The feel of the grip is arguably better on the Smith, but this is a very overrated reason to buy a gun. The human hand is amazingly adaptive and will conform to almost any grip shape. Having to get used to 2 different grips and 2 very different trigger pulls are more of a problem in my opinion.

BlayGlock
September 29, 2010, 04:17 PM
I owned and shot both. Im much more of a Glock fan, however, I feel that the M&P shot a little better and had less felt recoil. Ive used an Apex sear in my M&P 9 and it does make a difference. Im sure it would in the 45 as well. Now if we were talking about 9mm, Glock 19 all day long.

I did find that my M&P's finish was more rust prone than my Glocks.

Also the Apex sear is very easy to install, you can look up how to do it on Apex's youtube page. It took me less than 10 mins.

Mags
September 29, 2010, 05:49 PM
I have shot both and own neither.

The M&P has a low capacity of only 10 rounds compared to other poly pistols of it's size. The M&P 45 shoots nice to me even without an Apex job, but I did get the APex job on my M&P9c. The M&P also has nice ergos, but if the Glock ergos suit you I would go with the Glock. The Glock has a better trigger and is more affordable to tune. It also has 13 rounds standard capacity I think and is a great shooter.

The Lone Haranguer
September 29, 2010, 07:44 PM
I like the M&P much better than the Glock 21, due to superior hand fit and less bulk making it more practical for concealed carry, despite three fewer rounds. (I have not tried the newer SF version, but the excessive thickness remains.)

Skylerbone
September 30, 2010, 12:07 AM
My feeling on capacity is this: if you need more than 10 rounds of .45ACP you either picked the wrong gun fight or you shouldn't be allowed to touch a firearm.

On ergos: so long as you can learn to manipulate all necessary functions and control the pistol they aren't nearly as important as reliability. Both the M&P and Glock are proven, reliable performers though I've not seen a single M&P kaboom post to date. Could someone link that?

On trigger: lawyers and liberals (along with their elected judges) have made decent stock triggers a far away memory and anyone serious about their firearm should plan on trigger work. With the Apex sear and striker block installed, the Glock can't touch the M&P on feel, weight or reset. (note there are several Apex kits that lighten trigger pull to just a bit under stock to competition only sub-3 lb.)

Aftermarket support: what ain't broke don't need "support" (just kidding) Check out: http://www.speedshooterspecialties.com/catalog/display.php?category=Smith+%26+Wesson+M%26P+45. Everything from threaded barrels to base pads, springs to sears and sights. If you want more, buy a Swiss Army Knife.

I have DeSantis, Galco and Uncle Mike's holsters for my M&Ps but BlackHawk, Safariland, Bianchi, Fobus, Blade Tech, Comp-tac, Crossbreed, Don Hume, G&G, Hunter, Ross Leather and a few others make compatible holsters as well. In fact the Glock Sport holster for the G21 also fits the M&P, oh yeah, there's options.

I won't even get into the plastic sights that can snap off at a critical time as that would make me look like a Glock hater but don't let rediculous arguements decide for you which brand to buy. You'll find that decision is much more personal than an internet chat in which strangers pointed out their favorite. If you're looking to personalize either one and don't mind spending a bit to do it right have a look here: http://www.bowietacticalconcepts.com/index.html.

Best of luck, don't loose too much sleep as you've got two great choices and either one should serve you fine.

David E
September 30, 2010, 12:15 AM
If the Glock, consider the 21-SF

Also consider the XD and (my choice) XDM, both in .45

Either one has the same 13+1 capacity of the Glock with a much more ergonomic shape and feel. The XDM< also has 3 interchangeable backstraps to fine tune a custom fit to your hand.

Phil W
September 30, 2010, 12:52 PM
Love my M&P. Had 2 Glocks and traded both. Just didn't feel right. Can't complain about their reliabilty though.

Full Metal Jacket
September 30, 2010, 03:57 PM
Other than some rust issues with M&P's (and not all were old versions some were as recent as 2009)


yeah the entire upper assembly, slide, sites, barrel and all, are rusted on the mp45c i sold to a relative. sent it in to s&w for him last week. never seen a gun rust like that before....

Ben86
September 30, 2010, 04:55 PM
I do hear about a lot of instances of rusting m&p slides. That's quite a concern for me because of the high humidity were I live (this is why I wipe down my guns every time I carry them). I think I'll ask their CS about the issue and see what they say as far as it being a widespread problem. I'm sure I will receive a somewhat disingenuous answer (I'd expect that from all companies), but it may be interesting non the less.

legion3
September 30, 2010, 07:17 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=297135

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071204131113AA9JlsB

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=279721

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1056997

http://www.lesjones.com/posts/004494.shtml

http://www.longislandfirearms.com/forum/m-1249523071/

http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=19552

TonyT
September 30, 2010, 07:56 PM
While both the S&W M&P45 and Glock 21 are relaible pistols I would oft for the ergonomics of the S&W M&P45. I recently purchased an M&P45 and was very impressed with it's accuracy and reliability - it fed very bullet shape including 185 gr. LSWC's with total reliability.

Skylerbone
October 1, 2010, 12:36 AM
Congrats Legion, you've managed 6 posts on rusty M&Ps. I just googled Glock kb and got 196,000 results in 0.23 seconds. They're all mass produced. They can't all be winners. Those not worthy get sent back and are made right. I've called CS at S&W on numerous ocasions just to ask questions. They speak English and they know their products.

jackpinesavages
October 1, 2010, 01:53 AM
I'm a M&P fan. That said I'm also buying 2 G21s; 1-21c and 1-21SFrtf. If S&W had made the 45 Pro or 10mm Pro, I'd be there. But they did'nt. Take a look at all the drop-in coversions you can do with the 21s somewhere down the road, and never look back. Have fun, no matter what you buy you can always buy another!! :what:

legion3
October 1, 2010, 09:04 AM
Congrats Legion, you've managed 6 posts on rusty M&Ps.

;)


Just passing on the info and I did limit myself...6 posts? Is that all? :D

RebelRabbi
October 1, 2010, 10:57 AM
Win-Win, a list of plus and minus points on these two guns would be equal. Buy the one that fits you better.

Skylerbone
October 1, 2010, 11:45 AM
Just given ya flack, legion; ),

While I've yet to sip the Kool Aid I do readily admit that Glock makes an outstanding pistol. Anyone who says differently must have something stronger than Kool-Aid on the brain.

Ben86
October 1, 2010, 01:41 PM
While I've yet to sip the Kool Aid I do readily admit that Glock makes an outstanding pistol. Anyone who says differently must have something stronger than Kool-Aid on the brain.

Such as the dogmatic views of a few 1911 snobs of past and present. I pity the people that can't make an unbiased decision on the next gun to purchase. That sounds really disfunctional to me.

ET
October 1, 2010, 01:42 PM
If the Glock, consider the 21-SF...

I own a 21sf and love it. It is one of the most reliable guns in my collection along with the Glock 27. It stays loaded by my bed at night. The SF is perfect for me because I like to add a Pachmayr slip on grip to my guns. With the sf I was able to do that, so now it feels perfect to me. I shoot it better at 25 yards than any other gun I own except my Taurus Judge Ultra-Lite loaded with Hornady XTP ammo (go figure).

When you read the internet you see where the big Glocks feel like bricks. The sf with a grip added feels like heaven in a gun...if that is possible. Of course you might want to take all of this with a grain of salt because I say that I can shoot my Judge @ 25 yards in 3" groups. The internet says that is impossible with that "gimmick" gun. So either I am an anomaly or just lying. :uhoh: As we say in Georgia "And that ain't no lie". ;)

Ben86
October 1, 2010, 01:46 PM
I have pretty good sized hands, mainly just long fingers. I find that the Glock 21 grip fits my hand just fine. It fills my hand better than my glock 17. Such a hard decision, I'm starting to lean more toward the glock 21. Though eventually I'll probably own both. :)

Rico567
October 1, 2010, 05:20 PM
I know nothing about the S&W MP 45, but I made my own comparison a while back, between the G21 (which I already owned) and a Springfield XD 45. All these polymer frame guns that are coming out are in some way derivative of the Glock, with just enough different features to hopefully isolate a market segment for a particular manufacturer.

I shot the G21 and the XD 45 for a whole summer, and found that 1) they are both well made, 2) they are both reliable, and 3) they are both accurate, and 4) I can shoot either equally well.

I concluded that the G21 was simpler, specifically has fewer parts and is easier to clean and maintain than the XD. I sold the XD.

Having never fired the MP 45 or even seen one in the plastic & iron, I can nevertheless theorize that I would probably arrive at exactly the same findings as above, and still end up with the Glock.

Manco
October 2, 2010, 12:21 AM
Congrats Legion, you've managed 6 posts on rusty M&Ps. I just googled Glock kb and got 196,000 results in 0.23 seconds. They're all mass produced. They can't all be winners.

My M&P does not readily rust like the defective ones do, and S&W will gladly fix the latter.

By the way, even Glocks can rust:

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/rusty-tales/46728-think-you-got-rust.html
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/rusty-tales/46728-think-you-got-rust-4.html#post743574
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/rusty-tales/46728-think-you-got-rust-6.html#post852438

http://gunlovers.19.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?p=15805&sid=bc3ad34e5edf9126e9575163f442baa4#15805

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192730

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=717514&postcount=15

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=317655

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1263830

http://pistolsmith.com/glock-pistols/1956-glocks-do-rust.html

http://www.545ar.com/g19rust2.jpg

Those not worthy get sent back and are made right.

Or as the first linked thread above shows, Glock might generously offer to sell you a replacement. ;)

Just having a little fun. :evil: Both are great guns, but they're not perfect and will still have issues sometimes.

SIGLBER
October 2, 2010, 12:29 AM
Answer is the same as others. Both are fine weapons. The G21 has been around for a long time and works well. But the M&P and XD .45's are usually a better fit for folks with small to medium hands. Fit is a big consideration. Proper fit allows for better shooting. Look at the 21 SF also. Not a hugh difference but just enough of a difference to make it a good choice for some people. No bad choice here. Just what fits you the best.

weisse52
October 2, 2010, 09:58 AM
I own 2 21's and a 30.

But, if I buy another .45 it will either be a 21 SF or a M&P.

I do not think you can go wrong either way. Shoot both, and then decide.

It is a strong draw to want to keep the same platform, but give both a try and then decide.

Gunner4h1r3
October 2, 2010, 01:06 PM
I have shot many Glocks including the G21. I currently own the G19 and G26 due to my hand size and that they fit my hand well. I used to own a G30 and found it was too bulky for my hands.

A couple weeks ago I had the opportunity to check out a semi-used M&P45 (all black no thumb safety variant). I tried out the gun with all the backstraps and found the small backstrap makes it feel like I am holding a 1911 (which is what I had started shooting with years ago, still have both of them) so I made the logical choice and bought it. I have run various rounds through it that would not cycle in a G30 without any failures.

The choice is yours. I buy pistols with ergonomics in mind. What may fit my hand may not fit yours. If the Glock works out and you like it, then by all means go for it. If you find that the M&P is the victor in this decision then purchase it.

Ben86
October 3, 2010, 01:41 AM
A couple days ago I purchased a S&W M&P9C for my wife. Within the first 50 rounds one of the white dots for the rear sight dropped out. Lame. I put some white out in its place and it looks good as knew, but to pay $534 for a gun and have one of the white dots drop out is ridiculous. Is this a common problem with the M&Ps? Everything else about the gun is great (and makes me want an M&P45), I've just never had this happen before though. I did notice that the gun in the instruction manual curiously has no white dots (the recesses are empty). I'm not sure if that's an indicator. ;)

LawofThirds
October 3, 2010, 03:54 AM
The white dots are just paint, occasionally a part won't be fully degreased/painted when it's too cold etc. I've seen paint on just about every brand of sight crack/yellow, never seen an entire paint dot drop out of the recess.

IV Troop
October 3, 2010, 07:31 AM
I own and have been issued G21, G21SF as well as the M&P. By a considerable amount, I prefer the Glock.

Manco
October 4, 2010, 04:04 PM
A couple days ago I purchased a S&W M&P9C for my wife. Within the first 50 rounds one of the white dots for the rear sight dropped out. Lame. I put some white out in its place and it looks good as knew, but to pay $534 for a gun and have one of the white dots drop out is ridiculous. Is this a common problem with the M&Ps?

Honestly, this is the first instance I've ever heard about, although a quick web search reveals a disturbing number of posts in various forums regarding the subject (albeit some of them may be duplicates by the same person). :confused: I've put thousands of rounds through my M&P40, some of which are on the hot side, and the white dots in its sights seem fine. There's some crud on them now, though, which I've never bothered to clean, and I figure I'll have to clean and eventually touch them up someday if the paint gets brittle and cracks from shooting and the passage of time (if I get some cleaner on them by accident and other such things).

It's hardly the most serious problem that any gun could have, although something should be done to address it. For all we know, it could be a new issue that nobody at S&W expected when they decided to change vendors for the white paint, for example (hypothetical). In your place, I'd let Smith & Wesson's customer service department know about it in order to help other owners in the future, and then I'd check the other dots for stability and preemptively fix them myself if I feel that it's prudent. It could be worse--at least the sights are made of steel rather than plastic. While most folks have no complaints about the plastic sights on Glocks (some are 20+ years old and still going strong), plenty are unhappy with them (look it up), and a few such sights have even broken off (rare but it happens, especially when the gun is dropped).

Everything else about the gun is great (and makes me want an M&P45), I've just never had this happen before though. I did notice that the gun in the instruction manual curiously has no white dots (the recesses are empty). I'm not sure if that's an indicator. ;)

Yeah, they actually fired more than a mag or two through that gun, so that's probably what happened. ;) While this is a bit disappointing, luckily it's easy to fix. And the black parts make a pretty decent backup, too. :)

daorhgih
October 4, 2010, 04:15 PM
"Man-hands" vs "little-hands". But I do really see the quantum move the S&W has made in its new offering. (I wish that GLOCK had made that move towards "perfection"!! I have large hands, and I can balance-fire a G-21 33 rd magazine as fast as a full auto....in about 2 seconds, on-target. Even had a range officer ask to inspect my G-21 for F/A select fire. As for ergonomics being a problem with target acquisition, try my fool-proof method: FRONT SIGHT -- REAR SIGHT -- SQUEEZE -- REPEAT IF NEEDED.

gglass
October 5, 2010, 07:43 AM
I used to own 2 Glocks... I now own 5 M&P's... End of story.

fastbolt
October 5, 2010, 01:29 PM
The comparison of the M&P 45 and the G21/21SF is a popular one at the moment, it seems, and for good reason.

In another forum's thread on this topic I posted the following info regarding likes & dislikes of the M&P 45:

Off the top of my head, as an armorer ...

Likes:

Replaceable grip & palm swell inserts
Beveled slide for easier holstering
Steel sub-chassis (to reinforce frame)
Coil pins (to secure L/B & Sear Housing to sub-chassis, distribute force)
Replaceable frame rails (w/o having to replace frame)
Steel Sear Housing Block
Heavy duty extractor (dimensions, height of hook & front shoulder)
Heavy duty slide rails
Self-centering frame rails (rocker rails) as wear occurs
Heavy duty slide dustcover (versus guide ring on Glock if dropped onto hard surface)
Easily grasped slide serrations
Steel sights
Trigger (revolver-like)
Stainless steel recoil spring assembly
Through-hardened stainless steel for slide & barrel
Teflon treated mag springs
Steel mag bodies
Option of mag safety which is simpler than 3rd gen design
Option of thumb safety
Reversible mag catch


Dislikes:
Solid extractor pins (would prefer roll pin like on the .45's)
Use of slave pin to align trigger bar & slide stop lever assembly (minor annoyance)
Small spring plate under rear sight (unlike larger one used in 3rd gen .45's)
Light effort regarding thumb safety engagement
Lack of plain stainless finish option on slide & barrel

Since I train for defensive shooting and not sporting venues, I shoot to trigger recovery and not trigger reset. The initial .3" rest-to-fire trigger pull and the subsequent approx .14" reset is not an issue for me (S&W specs).

Both of my M&P triggers lightened up and smoothed out considerably after shooting. My M&P 45 started out giving me averages between 8 1/2 - 9+ lbs NIB, on the heavy end of the expected 7 lbs +/- 2 lbs range for the .45's, but when I checked it after more than 2,500 rounds I was seeing averaged readings in the 5 1/2 - 6 lbs range (stock).

Now, regarding the G21SF, I'd post the following ...

Likes:

Better grip than the G21

Dislikes:

Trigger (typical forward sloping angle found on Glock, no curve)
No grip tang
Slide serrations (hard to grasp when wet or cold)
Narrow and thin guide ring on slide
Large dimension at bottom of grip
Plastic sights


Now, the trigger "feel" is pretty subjective. Being a long time revolver shooter, and having carried traditional double action service pistols since my agency transitioned away from revolvers, I've always liked a revolver-like curve to a trigger (and this is from a long time 1911 owner & shooter, too ;) ). The steeply forward sloping angle of the Glock has never felt quite like a "good" trigger to me, although I've acclimated myself to them over the years. You deal with what you're given.

Grip angle and preference is fairly subjective, too. Maybe Glock will do something about the bottom heavy 'fat' grip on the Gen4 G21's. As it is, the M&P 45 offers a pretty good range of backstrap reach and palm swell dimensions on the M&P 45. The smallest of the inserts actually feels akin to a 1911 with a flat mainspring housing, from my perspective. Pretty handy.

Both pistols seem to be suitable for their purpose, and either ought to serve a prospective owner/user well enough as a duty-type/defensive full size .45 pistol.

Ben86
November 30, 2010, 07:03 PM
I'm going to make an attempt to recycle this old thread in order to get some recommendations for holsters for the M&P45. I plan on getting one in a couple weeks, if I can keep my dogmatic Glock ways under control, but I noticed the holster selection is not that great. If anyone would suggest a good OWB or IWB holster I would much appreciate it.

Skylerbone
December 1, 2010, 11:32 AM
Do you have a current favorite for the Glocks you'd like to emulate? Most any holster that fits the G20 or G21 should fit.

MidWayUSA with a search of M&P 45 holster will turn up a good selection or are you looking for others' opinion on what they use that's comfortable/ works well?

fastbolt
December 1, 2010, 11:44 AM
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_758014_-1_757844_757837_image (Give it time to load)

Personally, I happen to like the Comp-Tac standard paddle and use it for my M&P's, although I also have a leather DeSantis I ordered through S&W.

JTQ
December 1, 2010, 02:20 PM
Raven Concealment Phantom is a very versatile holster. You can wear it IWB or OWB just by changing the attachments. The design also allows you to change the ride height and cant.

http://www.ravenconcealmentsystems.com/product_info.php?cPath=82_85_92&products_id=1567

There are other manufactures that have copied the Raven design and have a quicker delivery time, but I don't have any experience with them.

The M&P is a very popular pistol. I can't think of a manufacturer that doesn't offer a holster for the M&P. They may not be on the shelves at the local gun store or outdoor store, but you can get anything you want on line.

PabloJ
December 1, 2010, 02:30 PM
I'd like to collect some opinions on these two guns. I am trying to decide on which is going to be my first .45. I have a couple months to decide which one I want, so I'm trying to really make an informed decision on this one.

I'm a big Glock fan, but I've also shot the M&P9C and M&P40C in the past and have a high opinion them. As far as I see it the M&P has better ergos going for it and the Glock has familiarity. I'm stuck and can't seem to decide. I shoot both well, with maybe a slight advantage going to the M&P. Any thoughts or opinions of comparison would be appreciated.
Given two products of similar performance one being American I would pick domestic one every time. If the foreign product is superior that is another matter.

TonyT
December 1, 2010, 06:18 PM
Both the Glock21 and S&W M&P45 are excellent guns. I prefer the ergonomics and trigger of the M&P45. As an added bonus you can shoot lead bullets throught the M&P45. My M&P45 has shot consistent 1.5 to 2 inch tight ten shot groups at 50 ft. with 185gr. lead, plated and jacketed bullets as well as 230 gr. plated and jacketed bullets.

Ben86
December 1, 2010, 08:48 PM
Do you have a current favorite for the Glocks you'd like to emulate? Most any holster that fits the G20 or G21 should fit.

MidWayUSA with a search of M&P 45 holster will turn up a good selection or are you looking for others' opinion on what they use that's comfortable/ works well?

I'd like to get a blade tech or blackhawk kydex paddle holster for starters. I didn't know that G21 holsters mostly fit the m&p45, that's good to know. I welcome any opinions, or recommendations.

Half of me says "Get the M&P it's a better version of the Glock" the other half says "It's impractical, not as much is made for the m&p." You guys are proving that wrong and I appreciate that.

JTQ
December 1, 2010, 09:29 PM
Skylerbone wrote,
Do you have a current favorite for the Glocks you'd like to emulate? Most any holster that fits the G20 or G21 should fit.
I think this must be a misunderstanding on our part, since I don't think you intended to say a holster for a G20/21 will fit an M&P 45. I own neither an M&P 45 or a Glock 20/21, but I'm pretty sure the slide profile is different enough that holsters are not interchangeable between an M&P 45 and a Glock 20/21.

Admittedly I'm talking about a quality kydex (Blade-tech, Comp-tac, Raven, Tucker/Garrett, etc) or leather holster. I'm sure you could jam either pistol into a $20 nylon holster built for one or the other.

JTQ
December 1, 2010, 09:51 PM
Comp-tac (notice the holstered M&P on the home page)
http://www.comp-tac.com/

Blade-tech
http://www.blade-tech.com/

Tucker
http://rlcompanyusa.stores.yahoo.net/index.html

Garrett Industries
http://www.gimagclip.com/

Milt Sparks (order quickly they will close the window for the month soon)
http://www.miltsparks.com/

High Noon
http://www.highnoonholsters.com/

The list is practically endless.

Taroman
December 1, 2010, 10:48 PM
As others have stated, the M&P ergonomics are the best.
That said, the M&P trigger sucks. After spending $80+ on Apex parts, it was better, but still inferior to the Glock. In recoil, I felt the M&P had more of a "twisting" feel than the others.
After much testing and many loads, the M&P was never as accurate (in my hands) as the Glock, or my 1911 for that matter.
So, I traded the M&P for a nice S&W 681 and never looked back.. End of story..

-My $0.03, YMMV.

Skylerbone
December 2, 2010, 01:39 AM
JTQ, I said what I meant and meant what I said. Starting with your Comp-Tac and including Hunter, Bianchi and BlackHawk. These will all fit the G20/21 AND the M&P 45 in the SAME MODEL, SAME HOLSTER.

Many kydex holsters fit multiple models of firearm from multiple manufacturers using just one SKU. Whether the OP buys a G21 or an M&P 45 if he wants a Comp-Tac Infidel IWB holster he will be ordering the same one. If he buys both pistols he can carry one till lunch, pull it out and replace it with the other without switching holsters.

In reality, Glock may have broken the mold but they didn't throw away the pieces fast enough 'cause everyone and their brother scooped up the remnants and rebadged them with nearly identical proportions. It may not have been right but then look at revolver design and tell me there are no copycats.

PS I like the triggers on my 3 M&Ps now that they've been worked on (by me) and I have yet to meet a factory Glock that compares to them in present form. In from-the-factory form the M&P is indeed sad.

JTQ
December 2, 2010, 07:19 AM
Skylerbone wrote,
JTQ, I said what I meant and meant what I said. Starting with your Comp-Tac and including Hunter, Bianchi and BlackHawk. These will all fit the G20/21 AND the M&P 45 in the SAME MODEL, SAME HOLSTER.
I am truly surprised the same Comp-tac holster will fit both the M&P and the Glock. I'm less surprise by the "generic" fit of the other three makers.

This is clearly not the case with the Raven holsters. You can see how accurate the molding is around the slide. There is no way a Glock will fit in a Raven holster made for an S&W.
Raven's Glock holster
http://www.ravenconcealmentsystems.com/product_info.php?cPath=82_85_92&products_id=1561

Raven's S&W holster
http://www.ravenconcealmentsystems.com/product_info.php?cPath=82_85_92&products_id=1567

I would certainly check with the holster maker before buying a particular holster to make sure it will fit both pistols.

jon_in_wv
December 8, 2010, 06:51 PM
I can't speak to the problems some people claim about their M&Ps but I have two M&Ps. The M&P 9C is my EDC and has fired around 6000 rounds without fail. My M&P 9mm FS has only fired a couple hundred rounds without incident. The trigger on both pistols is just fine and always have been. They are both easiest guns to shoot accurately I've every had. I've handled and shot several Glocks and XDs. Some them had better triggers and some had worse. (I handled a XDm 45 last week that had a REALLY heavy trigger.) Any M&P is better to me than the Glocks with the heavier trigger options. I think most people that complain about the trigger reset are used to 1911s or have some strange motive to bash the M&P or have maybe just bought the hype and believe it. Where is the trigger reset on a Browning HP? What about a revolver? Or Keltecs? Somehow people manage to shoot them just fine. I can feel the trigger reset on both of my M&Ps just fine but I don't feel its that big a factor in shooting it well. Last time I shot my HP I short stroked it a couple times before I adjusted my pull from how I normally shoot my M&P. It has NO discernible reset yet I shoot it very well as do a lot of HP owners. I've never considered the Glock trigger to be the bar where "crisp" triggers are set. Compared to a 1911 NONE of them have great triggers. Compared to each other they are MUCH more similar than different.

BTW a Apex trigger kit may be "en vogue" for the M&Ps but they are NOT necessary by any stretch. (Don't forget a while back everyone was doing home trigger jobs on their Glocks too.) The money is much better spent on ammo than a trigger in my opinion. I have never understood ANYONE doing a trigger job on ANY pistol they haven't shot a few hundred rounds through first. Get used to the trigger first then decide if it needs adjustment for your shooting needs. If the M&Ps trigger is "so bad" its effecting your shooting you may have other issues with your technique that need work and a better trigger is just more forgiving? Just a thought.

Ben86
December 15, 2010, 12:03 AM
Well, I went into my local gunshop with the full intention of buying a Glock 21 and after holding one....I just couldn't do it. The Glock 21 felt like a 2x4 in my medium sized hands. I'm a big Glock fan and have/had several 9mm and .40 models but that Glock 21 doesn't feel right to me. The M&P feels like it is made for my hand. So for $519 NIB I went with it.

The trigger is also really nice, I keep reading all this about the M&P45's trigger being heavier than the 9mm and .40, but mine actually feels better than my wife's M&P9C. The take up is not crunchy and the trigger pull feels lighter, and there seems to be less over-travel. Maybe I got one of the improved triggers, I don't know. The minus three in capacity is kind of a bummer, but if I can shoot this gun better it will be a fair trade off.

I went with a Blackhawk serpa holster for an OWB holster, I have a Blackhawk #6 IWB that fits it, but I'm going to find something better for it. This gun has revived my interest in making a full sized gun work for CC.

Thanks for the info everyone.

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