Long Range Silenced


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Mencius
September 29, 2010, 12:53 PM
I have been thinking about getting a suppressor for a .22 pistol and I got to thinking about what I would get for a long range silenced rifle. I have seen the .308 suppressed rifles and was wondering what ya'll's opinion on what the quietest 300 yard rifle for taking deer-sized game with off the shelf ammo would be.

I would think the 308 subsonic ammo would lose alot of effectiveness at 200 to 300 yards. I know trajectory would be a nightmare, but I thought a big 45 caliber would be best. Maybe a single-shot 45/70 or something similar.

Any thoughts?

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pikid89
September 29, 2010, 12:57 PM
check your local laws...in florida it is illegal to hunt deer with a silencer of anysort

Rail Driver
September 29, 2010, 12:59 PM
trajectory on a .45-70 at 100+yd ranges is more like the trajectory of a golf ball compared to .308 I would think... It's a much lower powered cartridge. You could look into a .300 whisper through a .30 can.

taliv
September 29, 2010, 01:06 PM
The "whisper" series is probably something to look at for ideas. I avoid proprietary cartridges personally, so I don't own any of their stuff. But the idea is to launch very large projectiles to mitigate the very low velocity cap.

I think the big bore pistol caliber carbines are pretty cool if you care more about noise than terminal effectiveness. for instance, the 480Ruger with a 400g speer gold dot will still be reasonably effective on game past 100 yrds, but it's no rifle cartridge. They shoot bullets with sucky B.C.s but at least they were designed to mushroom at handgun velocities, unlike the 240g match bullets you'd shoot out of a whisper which would basically poke a hole.


I'm more concerned about trajectory than noise, so these days, I shoot full-power ammo through my suppressed rifles. It's still pretty quiet; you just get the crack of the bullet really. and when you're outdoors in the wind and with the leaves and stuff... it's just not a big deal

Dnaltrop
September 29, 2010, 01:12 PM
45-70 is a Rainbow trajectory. Once you get to the point that the bullet starts to slow, it has a much steeper drop at the far end of the shot.

inside 200 yards or so, not as noticeable, but I'd still prefer the .308's flight path.

Ranb
September 29, 2010, 03:45 PM
If you insist on going subsonic, then I would use the 338 whisper at a minimum if you intend to go out to 300 yards. Shot placement will be critical, so knowing your range accurately is a must. I read a post on another forum about a hunter using the 338 whisper, if I can find it I will post a link.

I think subsonic ammo is going to spook the game anyway, so it would be better to go with a standard 308. They can be suppressed enough to protect the ears.

Ranb

Zak Smith
September 29, 2010, 04:06 PM
Just about any subsonic cartridge will have extreme drop at 200 yards.

As example, here are two loads from a .300 Fireball, one, a 240gr SMK @ 1100fps (subsonic), and the second is a full-power 125gr load from a 10.5"

_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 50 100 150 200 250 300 350 400 | YARDS
240SMK 0.71* 1100 > -0.00 0.00 4.55 10.98 18.01 25.38 33.00 40.83 48.84 | drop (moa)
125 TNT 0.350 2050 > -0.00 -0.00 -0.38 1.12 3.23 5.72 8.51 11.58 14.95 | drop (moa)

240SMK 0.71* 1100 > 0.13 -0.02 -0.17 -0.33 -0.49 -0.66 -0.83 -1.01 -1.19 | drop per yard (inches)
125 TNT 0.350 2050 > 0.08 0.03 -0.02 -0.07 -0.13 -0.20 -0.27 -0.36 -0.45 | drop per yard (inches)

As you can see, at 300 yards (from a 50 yard zero), there is as much drop with the subsonic load as you'd normally get at around 1000 yards using full power ammunition. The drop rate at 300 yards is 0.8 inches per yard, so if you're off by 10 yards, you miss by 8 inches.

Unless you really want it to be subsonic quiet, you can always shoot full power ammo through a suppressor and it won't affect the ballistics, yet still yield usually 130-135 dB.


http://www.demigodllc.com/photo/TBAC-30P-1/icon/30p-1.jpg
article | A Brief Introduction to High-Power Rifle Suppressors http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://demigodllc.com/articles/brief-introduction-to-high-power-rifle-suppressors)

rcmodel
September 29, 2010, 04:23 PM
What is the need or purpose of using a suppressed rifle to kill a deer 300 yards away??

All the deer I have shot never heard the gun go off before they were already shot.

rc

DoubleTapDrew
September 29, 2010, 06:23 PM
What is the need or purpose of using a suppressed rifle to kill a deer 300 yards away??
I'd consider it (and according to the quick interwebz research I did it's not illegal in my state) since I don't wear ear protection while hunting, and don't want my shot to spook game that my hunting buddies may be stalking.

jmorris
September 29, 2010, 07:10 PM
was wondering what ya'll's opinion on what the quietest 300 yard rifle for taking deer-sized game with off the shelf ammo would be.

300 is stretching it a bit but if you cut that in half I can tell you the large boar/heavy bullet combination works well on hogs. “Game animals” are a no go suppressed in my state but I have shot “around” (to the side) deer with suppressed subsonic rifles at cactus and such. They focus on where the bullet impacts rather closely until they don’t see any threat and go back to snacking, at least until they do more looking up than eating, then they leave.

Bubbles
September 29, 2010, 09:21 PM
What is the need or purpose of using a suppressed rifle to kill a deer 300 yards away??
So you can also shoot the one standing next to the one that just fell over for no apparent reason. :D

FWIW hunting with a suppressor is legal in WV, VA, and PA. I do like the .300 Whisper round for deer, but only out to 150 yards. For land that I hunt that allows for longer-range shots (e.g. farms versus thick brush) I use a Rem 700 in .308 with regular hunting ammo and a suppressor.

Mencius
October 1, 2010, 08:12 AM
Ok, it looks like getting out past 150 yards or so is pushing it some. If I was going to shorten the range down to the 150 yard mark do you think a big 45 caliber slug or a little more pointy 300/338 whisper type round would be more effective at taking deer at 150 yards?

If you are leaning toward the bigger bullet do you think one of the major pistol cartridges (480 as suggested earlier) would be better or one of the slower rifle cartridges?

Mencius
October 1, 2010, 08:18 AM
Zak - That is a great article and thanks for the tables. The article is really good and informative.

gary0529
October 1, 2010, 09:32 AM
OK,
I have (and have shot 4 whitetails with) 300 Whisper,aka,300-221, 300 Fireball,

ranging in CRITICAL-yes I am shouting- with a subsonic 240 Sierra HPBT going 1040 fps it drops like a rock. A quiet painful rock but a rock nonetheless.

You need to either get the right bullet or place your shot in the brain or spinal cord to get a fast kill otherwise there is a strong likelihood the bullet will "pencil" through the chest and the deer will run off to die.
I have used Sierra 220 gr. that I have filed off the tip to make a flat point and skived the tip to help it open and yes it did work on a broadside shot but it also went through the upper heart and tore out the aorta and I never found the bullet so I have no idea if it expanded.
This year I an trying a specialty bullet from Lehigh Bullets that is a solid copper bullet that is "ventilated" for lack of a better term and you drop in a 20 cal bullet in the open cavity in the nose to aid expansion.
Very accurate round and it is hell on water jugs but I will have to see what it does on game this season-reports are favorable.

As to your ? about 300 yards-my personal belief is that it is way too long a shot to be made ethically-take another gun-around here, a shot at 300 yards would not spook the rest of the deer in the fields-I have dropped deer out at that range and had the rest of the herd just stand there and continue grazing-yes, we have that many deer - the limit is 6 and you must take at least 3 does to reduce the population.

The reason I go suppressed is to keep the noise down for the neighbors-not any other reason except that the couple of them do not need to be awakened at the break of dawn.

Just my opinion, you mileage will vary.

Gary

atomchaser
October 1, 2010, 08:19 PM
Gary0529 in right on and welcome. Shooting big game with subsonic rounds at extended ranges is probably not ethical for the majority of folks. Another option for bullets is these guys http://www.outlawstatebullets.com/

o Unforgiven o
October 1, 2010, 09:45 PM
Shooting big game with subsonic rounds at extended ranges is probably not ethical for the majority of folks.

Why? A full power .308 traveling 3000+ fps the deer would be dead before his buddy next to him heard the shot. :barf: (Deer eating) :uhoh: (Deer like *** Carl) :what: (Deer like OMG!) :cuss: (Deer like curse you great white hunter)

:D

.

taliv
October 2, 2010, 03:22 PM
welcome to THR gary,

Unforgiven, because full power 308 shoots very, very flat to 300 yrds. it's basically still point blank range for that cartridge. if you're off in your range estimation by 50 or even 100 yrds, you will probably still hit the vital area.

zak's table above shows the 240g at subsonic velocities takes 33 MINUTES of elevation to hit at 300 yrds. if your range estimation is off by 50 yrds with this round, you will miss by over 20 inches.

Double Naught Spy
October 2, 2010, 10:52 PM
Why? A full power .308 traveling 3000+ fps the deer would be dead before his buddy next to him heard the shot.

It doesn't matter if the buddy deer hears the shot before they target deer is hit. What is critical is what the buddy deer hears AFTER the target deer is hit. The buddy will hear the shot and likely bolt before you get a chance to sight in on the buddy.

While not a deer issue here, many folks use silencers to hunt hogs in Texas. The silenced shots won't spook the other hogs (or not as much), hence giving the hunter a better chance of multiple kills.

Also, silenced shots mean that unseen animals in the immediate area won't be chased away by the report that would occur with an unsilenced gun.

Al Thompson
October 3, 2010, 11:48 AM
I worked for USDA-AWS for awhile and we used suppressed .308s. Regular ammo worked just fine. There is (with those suppressors) some noise, but the deer just milled around a bit. The sonic boom is very difficult to link back to a certain spot, so it's really a non-issue.

JDMorris
October 4, 2010, 07:50 AM
remington has a 700 aac sps on their sight listed for a bit over 700 i believe, but get a .308

Mencius
October 8, 2010, 02:11 PM
You are probably right about the non-ethicalness (ethicalness is a word, right?) of shooting past 150 yards or so with one of the sub-sonic rounds. I appreciate the responses.

I am going to the suppressor guy tomorrow to see what he has/says. He is a custom/manufacturer of suppressors and can do custom milling. I am probably going to start with a .22 suppressor and go from there.

When I go to the big-game calibers I really do want to stay sub-sonic so I will probably have to get a new rifle and a suppressor. Going to have to save my pennies for a while first...

redbullitt
October 8, 2010, 03:20 PM
I like it enough just for the recoil reduction factor alone. Self spotting at closer distances?
WIN.

I have had pretty good luck shooting 308 subsonic with the sierra 180 RN and about 11 grains of trailboss for a suppressor as well. YMMV.

However, I will tell you right now that shooting the 22 suppressed out to some distance on steel is just about the most fun you can legally have. you gotta be spot on with your dope, but ammo is cheap and you can learn it well fairly quickly. AND you can run it on your pistol too.

22 suppressor gets my vote.

Silvanus
October 10, 2010, 03:47 PM
I'd consider it (and according to the quick interwebz research I did it's not illegal in my state) since I don't wear ear protection while hunting, and don't want my shot to spook game that my hunting buddies may be stalking

Why don't you just put a suppressor on a .308 and use standard velocity ammo?

It's quiet enough to not hurt your ears much if at all and you keep all the power and range of the cartridge. You won't shoot hundreds of rounds on a hunt anyway...

DoubleTapDrew
October 11, 2010, 11:16 PM
I am already in the market for a .308 can :) However my deer rifle is a 7mm-08, which will still fit down the tube. I am also considering making the LAR-8 my new deer rifle, or at least trying it the next season I hunt deer.

lwknight
October 12, 2010, 01:37 AM
There is a reason that someone developed the 300 Win Mag.
Subsonic is OK for 50 yards but when you gotta reach out and touch something you gotta get the lead out.
The only way that could be reasonable would be sighting in at exactly the same distance that your deer will be standing still posing for you.

Ironman
October 12, 2010, 07:25 AM
Just wanted to add I think its rediculous we cant use a suppressor to hunt in FL, Im not seeing the problem. I guess whomever came up with the rule things that it will make you a super stealth ninja hunter and youll kill all the animals in the forest in one day. Rolls eyes...

Hell, a bow is quieter than a suppressed gun, wonder why they dont make you hang bells on the strings......idiots.

BlacklabelOP
October 12, 2010, 07:29 AM
off the shelf ammo, hearing safe, fun as heck.....

get yourself a 30-30 and throw a can on it :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWhWOiH_OMo

o Unforgiven o
October 12, 2010, 02:27 PM
welcome to THR gary,

Unforgiven, because full power 308 shoots very, very flat to 300 yrds. it's basically still point blank range for that cartridge. if you're off in your range estimation by 50 or even 100 yrds, you will probably still hit the vital area.

zak's table above shows the 240g at subsonic velocities takes 33 MINUTES of elevation to hit at 300 yrds. if your range estimation is off by 50 yrds with this round, you will miss by over 20 inches.
My post was more directed at just the moral issue of using a silencer of which I see none. I could see poor shot placement being a problem that most would consider unethical and could come as a direct result of using subsonic ammo with your silencer and I did not address that in my post.

I still think my visual was funny. :D

Mencius
October 12, 2010, 03:19 PM
Unforgiven - The visual is definitely a +1.

redbullitt - I went to see the guy who makes and sells suppressors this weekend. He shot an integrally suppressed .22 and it made no noise. He pulled out another .22 with a screw-on and it was still really quiet. You might be right about the fun of shooting a .22 with one of these.

Of course, I would still like to have something I could take a deer with and practice shooting with without the ear-splitting boom. My hearing is pretty bad already, I really don't need any more damage...

I guess I just need to get a bunch of cash so I can get all of the cans.

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