Don't you think Open Carry is safer than CC?


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TexasGunbie
September 29, 2010, 10:32 PM
I was driving home and thought... some people bring a bigger size gun to their CCW exam, but when they carry, they will carry a smaller gun.

So generally we get better accuracy from a larger handgun, wouldn't that make open carry safer than conceal carry?

I thought I start a discussion on weighting the pros and cons of both carry methods. :)

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FIVETWOSEVEN
September 29, 2010, 10:37 PM
Also faster draw, serves as a deterrent, and helps put a message out there that we aren't bad people.

This is a very old subject btw, been discussed many many times.

huntinggamo
September 29, 2010, 10:41 PM
it has it pro's and cons...

on one hand while you may be more accurate you give away the element of surprise and make yourself a target, if you are in your local gas station checking out and someone walks in to rob it do you want to be CC or OC? OC makes you a target, he will most likely come in and address you as a threat first, possibly costing you your life before you even know what happened, if you cc he would most likely focus his attention on the clerk and the cash, giving you the discretion of being able to make a tactically based decision and not having your hand forced by some one that already knows you have a gun...

hirundo82
September 29, 2010, 10:43 PM
If you really want to do so, you can conceal a big gun. You need a good holster and a good gunbelt, and you dress around the gun.

I carried a Glock 17 OWB when I first got my CHL (it was the only gun I had). I've moved to a slightly smaller carry gun, a Glock 19, but I'm not a big fan of the really small carry guns that are so popular now.

Sky
September 29, 2010, 10:44 PM
I think open carry is like riding a white horse when everyone else is on a black one. Yes there are advantages to open carry as far as speed and ease of getting your weapon. But as stated an open carry guy is the first one I am gonna drop if I am the bad guy.

TexasRifleman
September 29, 2010, 10:44 PM
OC makes you a target, he will most likely come in and address you as a threat first, possibly costing you your life before you even know what happened

an open carry guy is the first one I am gonna drop if I am the bad guy.

Anyone have any evidence that this actually happens? It very well might but I have never seen anything showing that it does. It's often used as a reason not to open carry but I'm not convinced it has any basis in reality.

Living in Texas I don't have a choice but I would OC if I could.

HGUNHNTR
September 29, 2010, 10:46 PM
I always prefer CC.

huntinggamo
September 29, 2010, 10:56 PM
i dont have any evidence to back up my statements (someone else may), but my extensive training as a good guy is to address the immediate threat, i just know that if i was going to rob a place and got in the store and THEN seen someone was armed i would not continue about my robbery till that person was dis-armed or dead....

the un-trained thug will most likley develop tunnel vision on his intended target giving you the opportunity to access your weapon if needed...

What people seem to forget is that not all situations warrant you drawing down on the bad guy. for example the above mentioned gas station robbery. just because some guy walked into the gas station with a gun and is robing it does not mean you HAVE TO shoot him or even take any action at all. that gas station is insured, let him rob it, unless you have reason other then him being armed to believe that someone is going to get seriously injured or dead. lots of variables, bla bla bla, but my point is open carry puts you in a position where you no longer have a choice, it forces hands on both sides of the table and leads to bad things happening. now IMHO such is not always the case such as hiking, camping and outdoors activities i always open carry.....

Old krow
September 29, 2010, 10:58 PM
Anyone have any evidence that this actually happens? It very well might but I have never seen anything like it.

There aren't very many open carries here so it really wouldn't play into the crime statistics here.

But, let's flip the script. If 2 guys break into your house, one is brandishing a gun and one is not, which one is going to get shot first?

I wouldn't pretend to know the answer, there's just not enough data here to make a assessment one way or the other. But personally I would think that it would deter a criminal that had less firepower, like a knife or you and 3 friends that OC'd were out together, but could be less advantageous in some instances because criminals get to pick their battles, good guys do not. It gives them an opportunity to asses the threat before they make their move.

wrs840
September 29, 2010, 10:58 PM
If you really want to do so, you can conceal a big gun. You need a good holster and a good gunbelt, and you dress around the gun.

^^^
This.

Practice with and have the options. A LCP can do if you're practiced with it. A 442 is better if you're practiced with it, and I don't feel under-armed with it. Either is un-noticeable in the right pants pocket, even light dress-slacks. A single-stack 9mm can easily go IWB under a tucked-in dress or polo shirt. Untucked shirt, you can CC dang near anything.

Les

TexasRifleman
September 29, 2010, 11:01 PM
i just know that if i was going to rob a place and got in the store and THEN seen someone was armed i would not continue about my robbery till that person was dis-armed or dead....

Or more likely, you simply would not continue your robbery at all and go find another place with no visibly armed customers.

The argument that bad guys look for guns to shoot first assumes that bad guys WANT to be in a gun battle and I don't believe that is true for the majority of criminals out there.

Most criminals want easy targets and victims, not a firefight.

I believe this is why open carry is safer, bad guys simply don't want to be in the middle of that kind of situation and someone obviously armed means they are going to be in a gun battle almost certainly.

omegaflame
September 29, 2010, 11:03 PM
Open carry is safer for people around you. It scares off criminals and it a situation like the criminal starting the crime before noticing, you're the target. As someone who's too nervous to open-carry, you have to be very brave to do it (that's a compliment).

Concealed carry is the safest for you. You have the complete drop on criminals, and if someone tries something to someone else, you can interfere at your discretion.

In virtually all cases carrying either way is safer than not carrying.

Carter
September 29, 2010, 11:05 PM
Anyone have any evidence that this actually happens? It very well might but I have never seen anything showing that it does. It's often used as a reason not to open carry but I'm not convinced it has any basis in reality.

I remember reading a news story on here about a guy who was known for open carrying being robbed. Every referred to him as "that guy with the gun" or something similar. I don't remember specifics but people speculated that he might of been targeted because he was carrying.

I always conceal carry. In NC we can do either, but I have a feeling I'd run in to some problem if I did open carry. Its not something that I see around town. In fact, I've only seen it once on a person who was in a gun shop (customer that is, the salesmen always open carry, but thats to be expected). Our Sheriff is also pretty anti. No NFA items (unless you get a trust) and he uses every little misdemeanor to disqualify someone for a handgun permit for around 3 years, CC permit is Shall Issue though.

All in all I feel better having it concealed. IMHO its better to be underestimated in a fight situation than to be picked out as a threat. That philosophy has benefitted me in wrestling and various encounters. Now that I carry, I like the fact that I won't be picked out as a threat. It means I'm probably less likely to ever have to use said weapon and no negative attention from LEO's.

On the other hand though, open carry is probably a lot more comfortable.

Onmilo
September 29, 2010, 11:46 PM
I have always felt along the same lines as the early western towns in that open carry in a public and congested area is akin to brandishing.

In rural areas open carry is to be expected.

shockwave
September 29, 2010, 11:47 PM
Handguns are generally expensive things. Maybe you got yours cheap, but it's hard to find good ones under $400 or so. First one I bought was quite a bit more than that.

So if you're walking around out there, swaggering and preening, sporting a sidearm on your hip, you're basically a joke. I'd laugh out loud at you. Any criminal who wants that firearm you're carrying can take it from you like snatching candy from a baby. All you're doing by OC is saying, "come and take it."

Do I think it "is safer than CC?" No, I don't. I think it's insanely dangerous. At least, if you live in the city. Out in the country, some rural area, different story.

X-Rap
September 29, 2010, 11:49 PM
I think it should be legal both ways and is in some states, the main point is to be armed. Let the bad guys try to guess who all has the guns for once.



Wow shockwave you must be from the real big city with an opinion like that.

TexasRifleman
September 29, 2010, 11:50 PM
Any criminal who wants that firearm you're carrying can take it from you like snatching candy from a baby. All you're doing by OC is saying, "come and take it."

Again, go look at the crime stats for states that allow open carry and find some examples of this actually happening. Hint: You won't.

I keep seeing all these reasons it's a bad idea but no one ever has a cite where these incidents actually occur. The closest thing I get is

people speculated that he might of been targeted because he was carrying.

It all certainly might be true but you'd think somewhere it would have been documented.

FourteenMiles
September 30, 2010, 12:03 AM
Shockwave your post makes little sense to me. You would not OC because a criminal will see you have a item worth over $400 and just take it from you? That sounds like an argument agaist defending yourself with a firearm in general because if you ever do, the criminal will just take your gun away and use it against you.

Do you ever drive a car, ride a bike, use a cellphone in public, or enter your house overtly? Lest a criminal see that and just take your possesion from you?

All you're doing by OC is saying, "come and take it."

Yes, exactly. What do you think "Molon Labe!" means?

Mainsail
September 30, 2010, 12:06 AM
There was a guy on one of the forums who was(is) a prison guard. He said he asked his hard-core inmates if they would try to rob an open carrier for their gun. It was a unanimous NO. They reasoned it was far safer to just buy one for $50 on the corner than go against someone armed. That makes a lot more sense than to believe the bad guys are looking for a gunfight.

DenaliPark
September 30, 2010, 12:14 AM
Handguns are generally expensive things. Maybe you got yours cheap, but it's hard to find good ones under $400 or so. First one I bought was quite a bit more than that.

So if you're walking around out there, swaggering and preening, sporting a sidearm on your hip, you're basically a joke. I'd laugh out loud at you. Any criminal who wants that firearm you're carrying can take it from you like snatching candy from a baby. All you're doing by OC is saying, "come and take it."

Do I think it "is safer than CC?" No, I don't. I think it's insanely dangerous. At least, if you live in the city. Out in the country, some rural area, different story.
There is not a scintillia of evidence to uphold such logic, this is largely hyperbole and Brady campaign talking points.

TexasGunbie
September 30, 2010, 12:15 AM
Concealed carry is the safest for you. You have the complete drop on criminals, and if someone tries something to someone else, you can interfere at your discretion.

Why do you think you have the drop on criminals? If the BG didn't know you have a gun, and he come out and points a gun at you, that would be BG having the drop on your right?

If you open carry, likely the BG will pick another target, maybe a small build female??

If you are with a group of people and you open carry, wouldn't that give an impression that the other people in the group may be conceal carrying? and thus a more effective warning for the BG?

I think unless you have a contract on your life or something, most BG wouldn't pick on someone that visibly have a gun. Unless maybe you are carrying a engraved super rare 1911 worth thousands of dollars.

Sky
September 30, 2010, 12:20 AM
I do understand the op's point and I have no hard evidence published by some Obama czar only life experiences of myself and others I grew up with.

Remember the Texas saying that when you go to the barnyard it is the chicken that raises his head that goes into the pot?

I strongly believe that anything you do to draw attention or single yourself out in a war zone you are the one that takes the first round. White Horse?

Have seen formations of aircraft that when one bird moves out a little to far he is the one that gets the quad fifty or 37mm up the tail pipe. To blend into your environment is one of the cardinal rules of survival in a hostile situation. Don't draw attention to yourself.

It is usually not the big load mouth you gotta worry about for you always know where he is...the little quiet guy in the corner you did not see is the one who gets you.

See no facts or figures just innuendo and speculation. To many sheep for open carry; just my humble opinion.

TexasGunbie
September 30, 2010, 12:26 AM
Handguns are generally expensive things. Maybe you got yours cheap, but it's hard to find good ones under $400 or so. First one I bought was quite a bit more than that.

So if you're walking around out there, swaggering and preening, sporting a sidearm on your hip, you're basically a joke. I'd laugh out loud at you. Any criminal who wants that firearm you're carrying can take it from you like snatching candy from a baby. All you're doing by OC is saying, "come and take it."



So having a purse is not eye catching as well? What about a student walking home from campus, wouldn't they carry a notebook computer? What about an old lady wearing her favorite jewelery? Man I can name so many many many many more!
Oh, my iphone is worth more than a gun btw... and my other electronic devices that I carry daily too...

But NOOOOO, the criminal would love to snatch your 400+ dollars gun, and fight you for it. Really, it's like taking candy from a baby? If that's the case, it must be easy to fight a cop, just snatch that gun from his holster like taking candy from a BABY...

<deleted -- Sam>

Do I think it "is safer than CC?" No, I don't. I think it's insanely dangerous. At least, if you live in the city. Out in the country, some rural area, different story.

Oh yeah, living in the country or rural area... maybe in the desert in a house by myself and that's a safe place to conceal carry. Maybe up in the K2 would be the safest place to conceal carry too.

btw, you do know that conceal carry is to defend against bad guy right? so surely the best place is out in the country or rural areas where you live by yourself...

Cactus Jack Arizona
September 30, 2010, 12:34 AM
I've got to agree with TexasRifleman. I've watched a lot of those "caught on camera" type shows and they show a lot of convenience store type robberies. I'm also 15 credit hours away from a Crim degree at my University. Most guys holding up a store want easy money. They don't want a challenge, especially if it's a shoot out. If they get shot, that's a hospital trip, providing they are not killed instantly. Once there, inquiry minds want to know how and why they had been shot. This usually ends up with a trip to the police station, and yadda, yadda, yadda. The outcome is not good for them at that point.

I believe OC is actually safer for all because the criminal sees the pistol, if he's paying attention, and will be more likely to walk away. However, given society's long-time standing fear of guns, no doubt in part due to the anti-gun nuts whose panties get all bunched up if they even see a toy gun, OC is a far-reaching dream for most people in most states.

There's a story about 5 law-abiding Americans and how they were treated in Wisconsin when they OC'd at a restaurant. The 5 belonged to a firearm rights group. This is a recent event. Google it.

Jumping Frog
September 30, 2010, 12:39 AM
i just know that if i was going to rob a place and got in the store and THEN seen someone was armed i would not continue about my robbery till that person was dis-armed or dead....
Or more likely, you simply would not continue your robbery at all and go find another place with no visibly armed customers.

The argument that bad guys look for guns to shoot first assumes that bad guys WANT to be in a gun battle and I don't believe that is true for the majority of criminals out there.

Most criminals want easy targets and victims, not a firefight.
That is what happened in this story: Open carry deters armed robbery in Kennesaw (http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-atlanta/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw).

Robbers cased a Waffle House. Saw open carriers. Decided not to rob it until the Open Carriers had left.

This was discussed in these forums last Feb: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506232

Sky
September 30, 2010, 12:53 AM
Jumping Frog good post. There is a difference between a combat zone and a trip down to Walley World that's for sure.....sorry

Owen Sparks
September 30, 2010, 01:20 AM
We may disagree on which mode of carry is best, but can we all agree that this should be decided by the INDIVIDUAL rather than the state?

Dimis
September 30, 2010, 01:30 AM
Anyone have any evidence that this actually happens? It very well might but I have never seen anything showing that it does. It's often used as a reason not to open carry but I'm not convinced it has any basis in reality.


I think the logic isnt that it has happened but moreso that it can happen
robbers are not all the bumbling idiots we hope they are
they can be just like you or me or that highly trained monster some of us have dreamed up but the logic behind it is still the same

if you can think it it can happen and i can think of some messed up stuff

and the easiest explination of this is what would you do if you robbed a gas station and saw an armed person inside?
in reality alot of places DONT get robbed because criminals are like electricity and take the path of least resistance but...
it could still happen because humans are unpredictable especialy when they are not thinking rationaly like someone robbing a store would most likely be

NavyLCDR
September 30, 2010, 01:39 AM
We may disagree on which mode of carry is best, but can we all agree that this should be decided by the INDIVIDUAL rather than the state?

ABSOLUTELY +1!

The OC v. CC has been beat to death, resurrected as a zombie, which was dismembered with a samurai sword, came back to life as a vampire and killed yet again with the wooden stake.

The facts are that felons say that dealing with a citizen who is KNOWN to be armed is simply too much trouble for them. Why deal with the guy with the gun when they can wait 5 minutes for them to leave, or go down the street one block and find a plethora of targets not visibly armed? Why try to take a gun off the belt of an armed citizen when they can buy one illegally on the street or steal any firearm they find unattended, often times from police vehicles?

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-screen.pdf

Pages 30 and 31.

Personally, I'll believe the felons when they say they will just move on to a target that is not KNOWN to have a gun, which is very easy for them to do. I'll show them my gun right up front on my belt and hope to deter the crime from happening to me to begin with rather than hoping to use my gun to defend against a crime already in progress.

I fully admit that open carrying will not deter every crime. The gun is not a magic wand. But I will take the odds that are in favor of determent.

I will give TexasGunbie credit, he started the exact same debate for the 100th time with a new spin on the same question.

Jumping Frog good post. There is a difference between a combat zone and a trip down to Walley World that's for sure.....sorry

Absolutely correct, Sky. At Camp Liberty and Camp Victory in Baghdad, Iraq, the Army made me keep my M9 unloaded. At Walley World I carry my gun with 1 in the chamber and 10 in the magazine loaded in the gun!

NavyLCDR
September 30, 2010, 01:49 AM
And here is yet more proof AGAINST the theory that open carry causes one to be targeted first:

http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/19/gun-owner-saves-lives-in-the-richmond-va-golden-market-shooting/

Open carry was an advantage in this case because in the video I saw just how fast the GO managed to draw his gun and begin to return fire. You always hear about how open carry is so bad tactically – you’ll be the first one shot, etc. Oh, yeah? The GO had a HUGE gun in plain sight and he was NOT shot. Who got shot first? An unarmed store owner.

jerkface11
September 30, 2010, 02:01 AM
I don't think we should be restricted to just carrying handguns. Oh and I want open carry because I bought that nickle plated 1911.

lwknight
September 30, 2010, 02:05 AM
It seems that some of us are thinking that OC mens walking around with the big 6 gun swinging in a low cut holster. It would be a perfect situation if OC were legal and CC legal and optional with specific laws protecting partial concealment.
That way we could have a nice, tight, comfortable, and retrievable weapon that we could keep in a non blatant manner and not worry about printing or some bogus brandishing calls.

OCers don't have to make a spectacle of themselves at all. I do believe that if OCing , you are going to be viewed with respect if you dress the respectable part.
Dressing like a thug and displaying a weapon only makes the intimidation factor worse and will fuel the antis fire.

I see a lot of lawmen that wear nice jeans and a pressed shirt with a good leather belt and holster that no one even looks to see if there is also a badge displayed with it.

Dress right and don't display your big 6 gun like a Tombstone wanna be.
Keep your head up and eyes open.
You can obscure your gun discretely like when guys gotta scratch the itch.
I think it would be more acceptable that way.
And I think forced CC is not right and creates an extra burden.

nathan
September 30, 2010, 02:05 AM
I always go for CC. Open carry are for law enforcement officers etc. Besides i dont want to brag to others i have a gun. Low profile is better. But if shtf, then i d be as open and fast as lightning.

General Geoff
September 30, 2010, 02:09 AM
Just as an aside: The gentleman who foiled that robbery with a .45 Colt single action revolver, had amazing grace under fire. Not only did he manage three hits from four shots fired, but the trigger on his gun broke halfway through the ordeal, and he still managed to get off more shots with his gun by dropping the hammer manually. That, right there, is legendary discipline under stress.

NavyLCDR
September 30, 2010, 02:13 AM
You mean like this, lwknight?

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5033/28929137059395632015758.jpg

lwknight
September 30, 2010, 02:26 AM
NavyLT, that reminds me. I meant to add
Smile a little, it helps build trust. Not too much though. People don't trust someone that smiles too much . LOL!
Seriously though , your demeanor has a lot of affect

killchain
September 30, 2010, 02:32 AM
No. Because what the bad guy can't see, he won't try to either eliminate first or take from you.

lwknight
September 30, 2010, 02:41 AM
killchain , you don't have to have flashing noen lights on your gun.

GETxSOME
September 30, 2010, 02:48 AM
I'd still be classified as a "soon to be CC'er", but I think I would prefer to CC in most cases.

The only exception that I can think of right now is when I'm working at the family business (of which I'm a Partner). We own a small DVD rental/Tanning salon in a town of around 2500 people. We only have one person working at the store at a time, its easy enough to run on your own. I think I'd like the idea of carrying openly at the store for three reasons:
1.) It's a small town, and it wouldn't take long for everyone to know that I'm packing and the store shouldn't be targeted.
2.) fast access to my firearm in the event of an attempted robbery.
3.) It would be a conversation starter, giving me the opportunity to "educate" people about the importance of responsible gun ownership/rights.

Erik M
September 30, 2010, 02:50 AM
Id prefer to cc in public. In my life, OC is reserved for family functions like BBQ or fishing. I'd prefer not to show the public what kind of gun I own, but thats personal preference. If my state tried to outlaw the right I would fight for it.

JohnBiltz
September 30, 2010, 06:46 AM
I have the choice and I conceal. I don't really care what others think. I've made that choice. I think if I walk into something its immediately escalating because I have a gun out in the open. Concealing gives me more control and more choices. Nor do I think having a gun makes me invulnerable. That gun on your hip doesn't cover your back. I've seen a guy dare another guy to shoot him after he pulled on him. The whole time he just kept walking up on him with his hands empty. The person who ran was the one with a gun. Some times being crazy trumps being armed and not wanting to go to jail. I don't count on people just running from a gun.

ChCx2744
September 30, 2010, 07:15 AM
It really depends. I'll address the pros and cons of OC in my opinion:

Pros:
-Bigger/heavier guns = more accuracy and more firepower/mag capacity
-Faster draw
-May serve as a deterrent, but it may not (See cons)
-You can show it off :p

Cons:
-You will stick out like a sore thumb, especially to those anti's that live amongst us.
-If not a deterrent, you will be a target.

As you can see, I favor the pros over the cons of OC. I personally prefer CC only because I don't want any unwanted attention from others, but OC can have it's benefits.

TexasRifleman
September 30, 2010, 09:11 AM
You will stick out like a sore thumb, especially to those anti's that live amongst us.

I guess that one depends on where you are. Living in Texas I can't OC but occasionally when I'm in Arizona I will just because I can and so far I haven't even had anyone give me a second look when I've carried. I mean literally completely ignored.

And of course the more people do it the less of a problem that will be too.

lonegunman
September 30, 2010, 09:31 AM
Open carry is a quick way to get hit in the head with a brick or shot from behind. There is always the potentional for people to mistake an OC'r for a cop and request he intercede in their drama.

The great majority of Americans already believe that the 2nd amendment gives Americans the right to bear arms, OC-ing adds about as much to the debate as those gay rights guys screaming at passers-by with bullhorns add to the debate on gay marriage.

Do you really think two guys with 1911's could handle two CARLOADS of guys with rifles if they decided to go for it?

TexasRifleman
September 30, 2010, 09:36 AM
Do you really think two guys with 1911's could handle two CARLOADS of guys with rifles if they decided to go for it?

Which happens how often?

You have a MUCH greater chance of getting killed in your car on the way to work, do you stay home on the off chance that a semi will hit you?

No one has shown anything at all that even hints that you have a greater chance of being a victim of violence by open carrying. Nothing. So why does everyone keep on being absolutely convinced this will happen?

Seems strange to me, almost paranoid. It seems that there is some "gut feeling" that horrible things will happen that come from no reality at all. I think that it comes from hearing the anti's arguments for so many years that even some pro gun people have begun to believe some of them.

NavyLCDR
September 30, 2010, 09:37 AM
The great majority of Americans already believe that the 2nd amendment gives Americans the right to bear arms

Then why do only 3 states have Constitutional carry?

Which happens how often?

Never.

SaxonPig
September 30, 2010, 09:47 AM
No.

mcdonl
September 30, 2010, 10:02 AM
I prefer to keep my carry status unknown. I have no issues when people OC, I do under certain circumstances but for the most part I like it to be my little secret.

easyg
September 30, 2010, 10:27 AM
In my humble opinion....

Open carry is like pinning a "shoot me first" sign on your back.

NavyLCDR
September 30, 2010, 10:43 AM
Open carry is like pinning a "shoot me first" sign on your back.

Criminals don't pay attention to signs. Isn't that what we tell anyone who wants to prohibit guns somewhere?

Corporal K
September 30, 2010, 10:46 AM
Discretion is the better part of valor.

NavyLCDR
September 30, 2010, 10:49 AM
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

rodensouth
September 30, 2010, 11:17 AM
Nice one NavyLT!

tinygnat219
September 30, 2010, 11:17 AM
I generally can't stand Open Carry. However, it's perfectly legal in my state (VA) to do so. I support others' rights to do so because I don't know if my opinion will shift or not and I want it there should I choose to exercise that right.

I vastly prefer Concealed Carry. I exercise that right and I don't broadcast it.

Deanimator
September 30, 2010, 11:21 AM
"Safer"? No.

More applicable to some people's situations? Absolutely.

Carry in whatever way suits you that's lawful.

doc2rn
September 30, 2010, 11:22 AM
I OC often even though I have my CCW, I just prefer a Galco High Rise holster. To each his own, but follow the first rule of a gunfight!

NavyLCDR
September 30, 2010, 11:25 AM
I vastly prefer Concealed Carry. I exercise that right and I don't broadcast it.

Is it really a "right" if you have to pay a government to obtain their permission to do something?

Kleanbore
September 30, 2010, 11:29 AM
Posted by easyg: In my humble opinion....

Open carry is like pinning a "shoot me first" sign on your back.

I think that depends entirely upon the situation.

If the perps have not yet committed themselves to an attack, one would think that seeing an alert open carrier at the scene might well deter their action. Walking into a place in which there are several people carrying openly would very likely if not certainly do so.

The problem arises when the open carrier unwittingly stumbles upon a crime that is already in progress. If the criminal action cannot be aborted or delayed and someone comes in with a gun on his hip, an armed lookout or backup man will have little choice but to shoot a person before he can draw.

Examples? Few but they do exist, and I'm not yet at the point where I have to see historical data to recognize a risk that common sense would identify. As someone has said, would would you do in that situation?

Mas Ayoob wrote of a situation in which a clerk in a stop-and-rob that was being held up blurted out something that identified an arriving person as a policeman, and the guy was cut down immediately. We don't have ope carry here, but a man planning to murder the mayor and council members in a nearby community first shot a policeman outside and supplemented his armament with the officer's gun, and upon entering he council chamber, shot the policeman in the room first. Not a civilian situation? Well, the uniform better identified the targets, but that's about the only meaningful difference. Back to common sense.

Again, common sense does tell one that a perp given a choice will generally avoid messing with anyone known to be armed, but there may be an exception: three perps acting in very close quarters and needing an additional weapon may be willing to take the risk of grabbing one if they see it and think that the chances of success are high. May work, may not.

I would not open carry in town here if I could, but my main reason is the very prevalent and strong anti-gun sentiment around here. Many, many people still hold concealed carry in very high disdain.

I do not oppose the legalization of open carry. In places in which I've seen it I have thought it perfectly acceptable.

If I could carry openly when camping, I would do so. Probably a nice pro shop L frame (I don't have one now).

That brings up another point. (full disclosure: I am old). I believe that a civilian carrying a "barbecue gun" or a Model 1911 or brightly finished Python or N frame with nice grips in a leather holster would probably cause a little less concern than someone with a black H&K in a tactical holster. However, I think that the person's demeanor, expression, and dress would probably make more of a difference.

rscalzo
September 30, 2010, 12:26 PM
There was a guy on one of the forums who was(is) a prison guard. He said he asked his hard-core inmates if they would try to rob an open carrier for their gun. It was a unanimous NO. They reasoned it was far safer to just buy one for $50 on the corner than go against someone armed. That makes a lot more sense than to believe the bad guys are looking for a gunfight.

A bit of BS. Street pricing for anything decent is as much or more than normal legal street pricing. I carried "open" for years working on the street. Every incident requires a constant attention to the firearm. As I had a security holster, removal by the uninformed was more difficult that most cc type holsters, many with no retention device at all. In a physical or verbal confrontation, security of the handgun is required for protection.

The training for CC and OC have different requirements in some cases. A case can be made for both in some cases. But I don't see it as a one type fits all.

To say the sight of a handgun causes fear in the criminal element...well, that just isn't the case for some. I've had some dirt bags simply laugh when confronted with the muzzle of a handgun. True, most will pick the easy target, but not all. As in all cases, the fact you have a handgun does not make one invincible.

springmom
September 30, 2010, 12:33 PM
I would be a very happy camper if I could carry openly. Very happy indeed. It is a flipping pain in the neck for me to conceal a handgun. 1) I'm female, 2) I'm curvy but slender, and therefore 3) I'm NOT into wearing 3X tee shirts. Additionally, when I wear a skirt or a dress I'm usually reduced to purse carry because I am not the least interested in a thigh holster. :rolleyes:

I could consistently carry a larger caliber handgun. That is a Good Thing.

Besides, the likelihood that someone is going to sneak close enough to take my gun away seems pretty farfetched. It seems to be more an urban legend on gun sites than anything anybody can substantiate. If I'm wrong, then please post links to substantiation. But if there's only been one or two ever, I still maintain that constitutes "farfetched".

Jan

CajunBass
September 30, 2010, 01:05 PM
I don't think it's any more dangerous. I don't think it's any safer either. I know it's a lot more convient.

Mainsail
September 30, 2010, 01:16 PM
True, most will pick the easy target, but not all. As in all cases, the fact you have a handgun does not make one invincible.

This thread is now three pages long. Can you point to even one post in this or any other thread where anyone has made such a claim?

Also, open carry is just another method of carry. Don’t make the intellectually faulty argument that because it isn’t applicable in every situation it should be discarded. Every one of us should build a personal safety strategy of which firearms carry is one small part. No part in and of itself can support the whole, but all the parts are interdependent.

So how do you build your plan, by emphasizing rare or unlikely threats? I hope not! If you do (or claim to) then you wouldn’t leave your barricaded position inside your home. If you had to venture out, you’d be wearing full body armor and travel as part of a team. Of course, that sounds silly, right? We build our personal protection strategy to emphasize threats we face, prioritizing the most likely threats above the less likely or rare threats.

For example, in a well organized Hollywood style bank robbery (not the typical 99.8% of the time style bank robberies) open carry might not be the best choice. So do I discard the option of open carry? No, of course not! I am only rarely inside a bank, and coupled with the rarity of that style of robbery it would be foolishness to emphasize that threat above the more likely ones.

In Tacoma, the most likely threat for someone just out and about is, based on listening to a scanner of police calls, not on what the news reports, is the armed mugger. They see someone with an ipod or similar item, stop, pile out of their car, and rob the person using a gun, knife, or just a physical assault; and then take the item. This sort of crime occurs in parks and parking lots as well. Open carry deters this sort of crime, and I can testify to that as a firsthand witness.

Comparing a regular citizen’s open carry to a police officer or armed guard is nonsensical. I do not go towards crime, I move in the other direction. I also don’t grapple with criminal because I have no intention of making an arrest. These are not threats that are high on the priority list.

It’s silly to argue against open carry based on something that might happen, because anything might (and probably will sooner or later) happen. The proper question is, “What is the likelihood that something will happen?” Someone might spit in your eye and give you aids or hepatitis, but do you wear a face shield wherever you go? Someone might drop an anvil on your head from the second floor, then run down and take your wallet (and CC gun). Do you wear a helmet everywhere you go? If you’re going to argue that OC is a poor choice because someone might club you and take it, then you’re arguing for no other reason than that you like to argue.

Legionnaire
September 30, 2010, 01:29 PM
Safer? I have no idea. But I wish that open and concealed carry were both legal and common everywhere. If it was common to see people carrying openly, and common knowledge that many more were carrying concealed, I suspect it would give criminals more pause. I think Heinlein was right: "An armed society is a polite society."

wheelgunslinger
September 30, 2010, 01:30 PM
Is it really a "right" if you have to pay a government to obtain their permission to do something?
Word up.

Carter
September 30, 2010, 01:59 PM
Is it really a "right" if you have to pay a government to obtain their permission to do something?

Even my local gun shop guys (by the way one of them uses UN invasion as a selling point, but that is a different topic) refers to CC as a privilege, not a right.

I'm not sure how openc carry falls in NC, whether being a right or a privilege, but it doesn't require a permit, so I'd say more towards right. However, NC also has this dandy little law that bans carrying firearms off your property during natural disasters or emergencies. Under that logic it would be more of a privilege.


For the range I think open carry is more practical. At some ranges I'm sure if they saw you had a concealed handgun someone there would jump all over you for being unsafe. I got yelled at while at a public range for handling a sight. So its possible.
Camping is another time I'd think open carry is a good idea. Easy access if needed, but I don't think thats legal in most camp grounds in NC.

As far as being safe in general it entirely depends on the circumstances. Armed robbery in a buidling I'd want to be concealed. If it was a mugging on the street or something similar I think open carry would be a good deterrent, probably.

Vector
September 30, 2010, 02:03 PM
Anyone have any evidence that this actually happens? It very well might but I have never seen anything showing that it does. It's often used as a reason not to open carry but I'm not convinced it has any basis in reality.

Living in Texas I don't have a choice but I would OC if I could.
I am not sure what evidence could possibly be around as I doubt any study has been conducted. Regardless it makes sense, especially in the scenario the poster gave about a gas station holdup. The first thing a bank robber wants to do is get a jump on the guard and disarm him because he is known to have a gun. If you are standing in line and the bad guys sees a firearm on your side, he is not going to ignore it/you and go about his business, he is going to shoot or disarm you then proceed.

NavyLCDR
September 30, 2010, 02:05 PM
Word up.

I am showing my age here... I had to look that up:
2. word up
I comprehend what you are saying and verify that your statement is true, my good brother.

Thanks!

TexasGunbie
September 30, 2010, 02:13 PM
I am showing my age here... I had to look that up:

Haha shows that learning is always a continuous daily routine!

NavyLCDR
September 30, 2010, 02:19 PM
The first thing a bank robber wants to do is get a jump on the guard and disarm him because he is known to have a gun. If you are standing in line and the bad guys sees a firearm on your side, he is not going to ignore it/you and go about his business, he is going to shoot or disarm you then proceed

1. The armed guard: is a known target at a known location chosen ahead of time. Not applicable to a random citizen, at any random location, with a random chance of carrying a gun.

2. Look at my photo on post #35. If a bad guy is looking at each individual person in the bank close enough to pick out my handgun and shoot me because of it, that robber is taking way too much examining each individual customer than paying attention to the tellers and other security at the bank. The object is to grab and go, not stop and frisk customers.

3. The robber is much more likely to notice movement instead of a static object on a belt. It is much more likely that the robber would detect the movement of a person attempting to bring something out of concealment. In this instance - as in the instance referred to in post #30, speed is of the utmost importance. It is vital that the gun be presented and fired before the criminal has time to equate the movement to the action of procuring a gun. Retrieving a gun from under concealment increases movement and draw time and is more likely to draw the attention of the criminal earlier in the process.

NavyLCDR
September 30, 2010, 02:20 PM
TexasGunbie,

Welcome back. You haven't expressed an opinion as to all that has been written...

Dimis
September 30, 2010, 02:26 PM
i honestly dont have an opinion on the matter as some can open carry and others cannot
not just lawful reasoning here there are other factors that make it difficult for one or the other

myself i live in De (an open carry state) I also have my CCDW i have done both
the problem is even tho we are an open carry state a good portion of our population doesnt do it.. so when a non law enforcment officer (or someone who doesnt at least look the part) carries people get nervous (yes i have seen this first hand)
my wife for halloween last year went to her school as a cowboy (shes a 2nd grade teacher) she had a PLASTIC revolver on her side as a prop in full costume and Wa-Wa (convenience store) told her she couldnt wear that in there place of business so she went outside and threw the PLASTIC gun in the car they again told her she could wear that in there store (the holster) she was infuriated and left
that particular wa-was manager didnt aprove of open carry and felt that even an empty toy holster was too far (needless to say he was fired shortly after)

I myself was delivering pizzas in a bad neck of the woods and i had permission from my employer to carry in either open or CC manner
after haveing alot of dirty looks from people wondering why i have a gun on my hip and alot of lost tips im sure i decided to CC from then on
my logic was that the idiots who rob pizza boys would see a firearm and think about someone else but it lost me ALOT of tip money and a few customers

also i have open carried in my regular day life outside of work but people get nervous around a heavily tattooed toothless long facial haired guy with a gun
nvm the fact that if they knew me they would see that i am very rational and attempt to be as safe as humanly possible about firearms.. but thats the key point THEY DONT KNOW ME
so whats to stop them from calling a law enforcment officer and begin my huge hastle of explaining to the rookie how what i am doing is 100% legal here (i used to carry pamphlets about De open carry laws just for those that doubted)

i would love to live in an area that this practice was more common like arizona but here in delaware i almost have to stick with CC because we have a pretty even mix of anti and pro gun people and it is a true gamble who you will encounter

bottom line dad always said " ya never know what you'll see when you leave the house without a gun" so i just dont leave without it unless i have to and its usualy CC

ForumSurfer
September 30, 2010, 02:27 PM
I don't see where it is more or less dangerous.

When I open carry, I use a retention holster. I get the occasional stare or weird look. I've heard stories of ignorant managers questioning OC'ers or asking them to leave...without actually knowing state law or the actual business owner's policies. If it isn't posted, I can legally carry in NC; assuming it isn't gov't property or any other property listed in the statutes.

I prefer to ccw. Don’t ask, don’t tell.

That being said, if I were blindsided and physically attacked; I my open carry holster has a retention device and would likely stay on my hip. Most IWB ccw holsters don’t have a thumb break or retention device (outside of your belt’s tension, which is inadequate in a fist fight).

I’d say OC and CCW are equally safe.

General Geoff
September 30, 2010, 02:37 PM
That brings up another point. (full disclosure: I am old). I believe that a civilian carrying a "barbecue gun" or a Model 1911 or brightly finished Python or N frame with nice grips in a leather holster would probably cause a little less concern than someone with a black H&K in a tactical holster. However, I think that the person's demeanor, expression, and dress would probably make more of a difference.

It has been my experience that a big shiny stainless steel N-frame draws far more attention than a black polymer autoloader, simply because the vast majority of people don't notice a black gun in a black holster against black pants, at all. But put a shiny revolver in its place, and suddenly a lot of people notice.

TexasGunbie
September 30, 2010, 02:39 PM
Welcome back. You haven't expressed an opinion as to all that has been written...

Actually I appreciate you posting a picture. I think you dressed properly and presented a good image of gun ownership.

On the flip side, what if someone with less sense decides to go open carry in their gold chains and thug bandanna, and their low hanging pants? and just slip the gun down their 12 o'clock position? that would be a horrific image for our country.

There's no open carry here in Texas, but for those of you that live in a state where this is allowed, are most people doing it with proper manner?

Vector
September 30, 2010, 02:51 PM
1. The armed guard: is a known target at a known location chosen ahead of time. Not applicable to a random citizen, at any random location, with a random chance of carrying a gun.

2. Look at my photo on post #35. If a bad guy is looking at each individual person in the bank close enough to pick out my handgun and shoot me because of it, that robber is taking way too much examining each individual customer than paying attention to the tellers and other security at the bank. The object is to grab and go, not stop and frisk customers.

3. The robber is much more likely to notice movement instead of a static object on a belt. It is much more likely that the robber would detect the movement of a person attempting to bring something out of concealment. In this instance - as in the instance referred to in post #30, speed is of the utmost importance. It is vital that the gun be presented and fired before the criminal has time to equate the movement to the action of procuring a gun. Retrieving a gun from under concealment increases movement and draw time and is more likely to draw the attention of the criminal earlier in the process.
My point was more related to the gas station example given by another poster. I just used the bank example to help people envision what a bank robber plans to do. Regardless your picture is a good example of how it is not always easy to spot OC depending on the gun, holster, type of clothing, etc.
Furthermore unless you are carrying on both sides, there is a 50-50 chance the random holdup at a gas station type store the robber will be on the opposite side of the gun unless he was casing the place first.

We do not have the option of OC in Florida so it would not be comfortable to me in public settings. I OC'd helping out at a garage sale once, and everyone either made comments or gave me looks. It is much easier for me to CC and if a scenario were to arise I'd be able to draw my weapon with ease unless the guy was staring right at me. Hopefully I will never have to find out.

ForumSurfer
September 30, 2010, 03:00 PM
Regardless your picture is a good example of how it is not always easy to spot OC depending on the gun, holster, type of clothing, etc.

I have a good friend who is a detective. He isn't undercover. He is required to wear a tucked in polo and khaki type pants (usually 5.11 tactical stuff). Even with a g19, a discreet cuff holster and a big, shiny badge on his belt...a large percentage of people just don't notice. People pay attention way less than we give them credit for...especially people committing crimes of opportunity.

On the other hand...I have been at the gas pumps in a polo and khakis OCing after an after-work range visit and a lady lead off with "Excuse me, officer..." when asking for directions. :/

NavyLCDR
September 30, 2010, 03:20 PM
Actually I appreciate you posting a picture. I think you dressed properly and presented a good image of gun ownership.

On the flip side, what if someone with less sense decides to go open carry in their gold chains and thug bandanna, and their low hanging pants? and just slip the gun down their 12 o'clock position? that would be a horrific image for our country.

There's no open carry here in Texas, but for those of you that live in a state where this is allowed, are most people doing it with proper manner?

Most people in everyday life who open carry everyday find that about 95% of the population notices, or if they do notice, don't care. There a few who are more flashy than I would care to be.

There are bad representatives of every group of people, though. There are concealed carriers who want to wear badges. There are bad representatives of the Brady Bunch and anti-s. I don't think any side can point to the bad representatives and judge the entire community based on their actions.

Kleanbore
September 30, 2010, 03:29 PM
Posted by Vector: If you are standing in line and the bad guys sees a firearm on your side, he is not going to ignore it/you and go about his business, he is going to shoot or disarm you then proceed.Or...turn around and leave, and either go somewhere else or come back later.

I suggest that most armed robbers or armed muggers don't really want to shoot anyone. Their weapon serves as a means of making a credible threat.

I believe that there are only a few kinds of circumstances in which a person carrying openly is less safe than someone else: (1) when the robbery or other armed criminal action has already been initiated and the presence of the armed citizen puts the safety of the perps at risk; (2) when the perps are too desperate to be deterred (e. g., if the need for immediate money or other booty is dire, or the perps are under drug influence); or (3) if the perps really want the gun and sense a good possibility of getting it.

Otherwise, if they see the gun, I should think they would be dissuaded from attmpting anything at that time and place.

On the other hand, if they don't notice the gun until after they announce their intentions, the poor guy with the gun on his hip just might end up wishing that he had been carrying concealed.

In the large city near where I live, (3) above would probably pose the highest risk of the three mentioned. I think, but cannot prove, that it might even outweigh the deterrent value. I'm told that autos parked on the street will be broken into just to get a few visible coins or a charger with no device attached. No risk, but no real gain, either. Raise the ante to a high capacity handgun--something that not only could be fenced, but also useful as a tool for further wrong-doing--and the threshold for an acceptable risk level goes up quite a bit.

Move the scene out of an inner city with one of the worst violent crime rates in the country and the balance should shift markedly.

Now, none of my neighbors would agree with me on this, but go somewhere where open carry is very common, and I suggest that everyone would be a lot safer--a polite society, if you will. I don't know about others, but if I were considering a violent crime or even a minor theft, I would choose somewhere else entirely. But even though we have had shall issue CCW permits here for some years, a lot of people around here still say that concealed carry will make things like "the wild west", and they believe it.

Jefpainthorse
September 30, 2010, 03:32 PM
If open carry is a "shoot me" sign why do so many pawn brokers and gun dealers carry openly at work (were it's legal to do so)?

Over 30 states have provisions for some sort of open carry. I suspect 2 things... in places were it's not prudent (metro areas) most folks just don't do it.. and in rural places were it's practical ...no one bats an eye.

We tried to get open carry for ccw holders in OK last year... it was vetoed and narrowly missed an override vote when the bill kicked back to the state house.

I eat at my small town diner everyday... at least 6 folks are in there with a pistol under their shirt. If a armed robber walked in and saw six hog legs in the open he'd find another place to rob-- or just sit for a cup of coffee and mind his business.

In my case... I still spend a lot of time on horseback and have pasture on both sides of my county road. I risk my CCW when I carry an SAA openly on horseback as soon as we step into the road. In our county the deputies are pretty cool about that... in Oklahoma or Tulsa county I'd get a beat-down over the same thing.

FourteenMiles
September 30, 2010, 03:33 PM
Quote:
There was a guy on one of the forums who was(is) a prison guard. He said he asked his hard-core inmates if they would try to rob an open carrier for their gun. It was a unanimous NO. They reasoned it was far safer to just buy one for $50 on the corner than go against someone armed. That makes a lot more sense than to believe the bad guys are looking for a gunfight.

A bit of BS. Street pricing for anything decent is as much or more than normal legal street pricing. I carried "open" for years working on the street. Every incident requires a constant attention to the firearm. As I had a security holster, removal by the uninformed was more difficult that most cc type holsters, many with no retention device at all. In a physical or verbal confrontation, security of the handgun is required for protection.

You call BS but don't give any reasoning or evidence? How does the fact that you carried openly gives you insight into how much illegal items on the street cost?

I once ran into a "hood" who was trying to get rid of a handgun for something like $20. I did not seek to get more information but I surmized it was stolen or evidence in a crime and he was trying to get rid of it.

Kleanbore
September 30, 2010, 03:42 PM
Posted by Jefpainthorse: I eat at my small town diner everyday... at least 6 folks are in there with a pistol under their shirt. If a armed robber walked in and saw six hog legs in the open he'd find another place to rob-- or just sit for a cup of coffee and mind his business.Sounds a lot like something Elmer Keith said about his home town in Idaho when commenting on a mass shooting at a MacDonalds.

Now, if concealed carry were widely known to be very prevalent in a particular town, that would serve as a deterrent, too.

Jefpainthorse
September 30, 2010, 03:48 PM
"Sounds a lot like something Elmer Keith said about his home town in Idaho when commenting on a mass shooting at a MacDonalds.

Now, if concealed carry were widely known to be very prevalent in a particular town, that would serve as a deterrent, too. "

If you get everyone to stand still for a count... about 3 million folks live in the State Of Oklahoma. We are just shy of having 100,000 CCW holders.
After you throw out the kids and lost socialists who migrate here from the East and California to raise organic goats and make pottery....we have a good ratio of legally armed folks.

Someone still screws up and gets shot pulling a "home invasion" or armed robbery . I guess you can't fix stupid.

Prion
September 30, 2010, 04:05 PM
I just googled the question of illegal gun costs. It would appear from a cursory read that they are worth more on the street not less. A lot more, in some 2 to 3 times more.

I would open carry in a relatively safe area to protect myself from a random act of violence but not in the 'hood'.

In my neighborhood people would laugh and jokingly ask if it was Halloween or if I was playing Sheriff. No one around here would take you seriously. You'd be taken more seriously carrying a large fire extinguisher on your back.

Gun violence? Guns are a sporting implement in my part of the world. Sorry it isn't so everywhere.

Guns and more
September 30, 2010, 04:55 PM
So generally we get better accuracy from a larger handgun, wouldn't that make open carry safer than conceal carry?
From a technical standpoint, yes.
But I prefer if no one knows I am armed.

Dimis
October 1, 2010, 02:59 AM
I just googled the question of illegal gun costs. It would appear from a cursory read that they are worth more on the street not less. A lot more, in some 2 to 3 times more.

I would open carry in a relatively safe area to protect myself from a random act of violence but not in the 'hood'.

In my neighborhood people would laugh and jokingly ask if it was Halloween or if I was playing Sheriff. No one around here would take you seriously. You'd be taken more seriously carrying a large fire extinguisher on your back.

Gun violence? Guns are a sporting implement in my part of the world. Sorry it isn't so everywhere.

google isnt a renouned source of accurate information i have seen first hand "trunk" gun sales and was offered a smith and wesson 357 686 for $30 and NO I DID NOT ACCEPT THIS OFFER

street guns are different from private sales and ill bet dollars to donuts the information recieved was for private sales disguised as "street sales" for anti gun purposes

there was a gentleman (and i use that term as loosly as i can) in the upper part of my state that would... how should i say this... aquire any firearm you wanted for the low low prices of $25-$200 and he was adiment about the term ANY
needless to say he was caught for gun trafficing and stolen goods but these street dealers do exist
really why charge more for a gun they stole when they just want to get rid of it for there next crack fix anyway?

as i posted above i was in "the hood" delivering pizzas and i openly carried the only thing that stopped me was customers who didnt appreciate me showing up with a firearm but i dont care about strange looks

look as hard as you can at me all you wish but attempt to do me harm and see how funny your jokes and looks will become

im very happy that you live in a sporting arm only part of the world and that officers in your area have a reaction time of nano-seconds some of us are not fortunate enough to call 911 so we call 1911 instead

fortyluv
October 1, 2010, 12:37 PM
Open carry is for show offs. Foolish show offs.

Mainsail
October 1, 2010, 12:43 PM
Open carry is for show offs. Foolish show offs.

Concealed carry is for people who hope to shoot people, murderers really. They hope to surprise someone so they can kill them. They like to shoot kids. Bank robbers always carry concealed to surprise the tellers, so concealed carry folks are all bank robbers.

It’s just as stupid the other way around.

TexasGunbie
October 1, 2010, 12:44 PM
Open carry is for show offs. Foolish show offs.

Why don't you elaborate more?

A car can be a show off or the most practical item ever...
Jewelery can be show off but also hold symbolic meanings...
So why is open carry a pure foolish show off??

NavyLCDR
October 1, 2010, 12:45 PM
I think you just made the score 40-15 there, mainsail.

Open carry is for show offs. Foolish show offs.

The Brady Bunch says the same thing about your gun, fortyluv.

One-Time
October 1, 2010, 12:47 PM
If nothing its a deterrent(criminals want non resistance and will bail if theres potential resistance) and its faster to produce a weapon if its needed

I support CC and OC, and would prefer we lose permit requirements as its supposed to be a right

JellyJar
October 1, 2010, 01:50 PM
See my comments on the post about the Pizza driver:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=6772825#post6772825

TexasRifleman
October 1, 2010, 04:31 PM
Open carry is for show offs. Foolish show offs.

Owning guns is for show offs. Foolish show offs. :scrutiny:


See how quick one can make that jump?

If you don't like open carry then post your well thought out and applicable reasons.

This kind of thing is not appropriate here.

oldbanjo
October 1, 2010, 04:45 PM
If I was a thief I would love open carry, you can pick what gun you want to steal and the gun is worth more money than the gas station will have. You will become a target, if the thief needs a gun you have one. Just like that kung-fuey- crap when some one shows the proper stance you shot him, a fool would fight him. You show your hand and the BG WILL win.

General Geoff
October 1, 2010, 04:51 PM
If I was a thief I would love open carry, you can pick what gun you want to steal and the gun is worth more money than the gas station will have. You will become a target, if the thief needs a gun you have one.

Yeah, because thieves target police officers left & right to steal their sidearms...

NavyLCDR
October 1, 2010, 04:57 PM
Yeah, because thieves target police officers left & right to steal their sidearms...

They don't need to because there are plenty of unattended firearms for them to steal out of their cars! I've read of more firearms being stolen out of police cars than off of officers' belts. And the same is true of open carry. It's soooo much easier and more convenient for a BG to obtain an unattended firearm or buy one, there is no need for them to fight the carrier for one - as evidence by the fact that it's never been reported to happen.

JohnBiltz
October 1, 2010, 05:02 PM
Show off? Interesting question, I'm not sure its showing off but I don't like drawing attention to myself when I'm out walking around. If I'm honest with myself if open carry was really common I'd be more likely to do it. I'm not going to say that any given person carries to show off, I think its foolish to say that no one does it for that reason though. A desire to remain low key certainly figures highly in why I don't and choose to CCW.

rscalzo
October 1, 2010, 05:07 PM
some people bring a bigger size gun to their CCW exam, but when they carry, they will carry a smaller gun.

Somewhat like the new riders I witnessed at the bike shop. come in and buy a 700 pound bike, then take the MC endorsement on a scooter. I follow the train with what I carry thoery.

ForumSurfer
October 1, 2010, 05:21 PM
You show your hand and the BG WILL win.

That is not true. There are documented self defense cases where an open carrier defended themselves. Here's one:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=464346&highlight=trigger+broke+defense

If I was a thief I would love open carry...You will become a target, if the thief needs a gun you have one.

I once thought along the same lines. But no more. I don't see that as being true. Most violent crimes are crimes of opportunity. The bad guy may not notice you have a weapon, or he may notice and move on to an easier target. Why rob a guy with a gun when you can rob a little old lady with a purse? Also, i was surprised at the number of people who don't notice you are carrying if you carry something sized like a glock 19 or a 1911 in a holster that hugs against you. As I stated in an earlier post, I have an leo buddy who wears a g19 and a badge on his belt with a polo shirt tucked into khakis...and for the most part, he says people don't even notice him as an leo even though he isn't attempting to be undercover at all.

Thieves just don't think like us. If they did, they wouldn't be a thief. They are more apt to go about their business and not even notice your sidearm, or simply see it...suspect you may be a cop and move on to the next target.

If you do OC, you should definitely up your situational awareness. I'm not saying that you become a target per say, but it's better to be prepared...which is the whole point of carrying to begin with. I just don't see any compelling evidence that OC'ing makes you a target.

oldbanjo
October 1, 2010, 05:31 PM
One thing that I notice while I'm enjoying myself reading this stuff is that people are not thinking the way that they think about HD. In HD everyone says be prepared for anything that may happen and train for it. Not on this thread the people that are for OC want to ignore all possibilities other than their narrow minded ideas. You are a target and that is not what you want to be. I do agree that if OC is legal you will be safer with CC being legal. That may protect you OC folks.

rscalzo
October 1, 2010, 06:11 PM
How does the fact that you carried openly gives you insight into how much illegal items on the street cost?

Probably the fact that I had the ability to interview enough of the mopes that bought them in that manner and having some of my officers on a countrywide task force in one of the countries highest crime rate area. The "$50 street buy" doesn't exist for the most part. Supply and demand works even in the criminal world.

TexasRifleman
October 1, 2010, 06:12 PM
You are a target and that is not what you want to be.

No one has given the slightest bit of evidence to show that OC makes you a target, 4 pages after I asked for anything at all that would support that statement.

And? Nothing, not a single shred of evidence.

You are asking us to believe that the mere presence of a gun makes a cowardly criminal who usually chooses victims based on weakness to all of a sudden WANT to get into a firefight merely at the sight of a gun.

You do realize that's exactly what anti's say about the presence of guns don't you? That the mere sight of one makes people start shooting?

That has not turned out to be true of course, and the endless repeating of "open carry makes you a victim always" with NO evidence to support it is getting tiresome.

If an anti came here and posted that the mere presence of a gun would cause people to lose their minds and start shootingyou'd be all over him yet you are happy to say the exact same thing about open carry.

It simply makes no sense at all.

NavyLCDR
October 1, 2010, 06:30 PM
The "$50 street buy" doesn't exist for the most part.

Mayor Bloomberg says they are abundant! It's only the guns from free states like VA, though, that are $50. If you want a gun from NJ, NY, CA or MA it will cost you more.... :neener:

oldbanjo
October 1, 2010, 07:24 PM
Common sense should tell you that you are a target and that makes it more dangerous for everybody. That gun will not protect you against a determined thief. The Police are trained and they carry more than a gun and they have to fight for their lives to keep their guns. But a bunch of wannabees won't loose there's. I didn't just get off a turnip truck. Get real.

Mainsail
October 1, 2010, 07:25 PM
You are asking us to believe that the mere presence of a gun makes a cowardly criminal who usually chooses victims based on weakness to all of a sudden WANT to get into a firefight merely at the sight of a gun.
Part of the problem is that honest people view dishonest people as though their lives have less value. They then extrapolate from that and make the leap that the dishonest people also value their lives less than the honest people do. I have long contended that the dishonest people, robbers, thieves, rapists, etc., have as strong a sense of self preservation as anyone else. That’s the error in thinking that leads one to make the assumption that there are robbers out there looking to throw themselves on a grenade so to speak. You can point out how silly it is, but they prefer ignorance.

TexasRifleman
October 1, 2010, 07:29 PM
Common sense should tell you that you are a target and that makes it more dangerous for everybody.

Common sense would tell you that bad guys don't want to get shot so they would walk away from someone wearing a gun and go find someone who looks like a victim.

Again and again I ask; since open carry is legal in many places, why don't you have news or police reports showing the kind of thing you say will happen? If it's "common sense" and "obvious" where are the police reports and news articles?

Mainsail
October 1, 2010, 07:36 PM
Common sense should tell you that you are a target and that makes it more dangerous for everybody. That gun will not protect you against a determined thief.
You should examine your definition of common sense. How often do you open carry? I did so daily for over four years in the most dangerous city in the Pacific Northwest. I saw, with my own eyes, my openly carried handgun deter a criminal away from me. He was certainly determined, had the intent, began his attack, and suddenly stopped. He threw his hands up as though I had drawn the gun (I hadn’t) and said, “Whoa!” then moved away quickly. Had I been carrying concealed I would have been a victim, and my CCd gun wouldn’t have been able to do a damn thing. Washington is a stand-your-ground state, but you cannot shoot someone for stealing your sunglasses off your face, especially if they’re walking away by the time you realize it’s happened and can draw.

Read The Open Carry Argument (http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-carry-discussion/7230-open-carry-argument.html), it was written as a common sense approach to how I made the decision to carry openly. I put aside wild speculation and fantasy, and put forth my argument.

oldbanjo
October 1, 2010, 07:45 PM
I will read it . Someone finally said something that made some sense. I honesty do not ever plan to OC, I do think that CC is safer for everybody.

Kleanbore
October 1, 2010, 08:20 PM
Common sense should tell you that you are a target and that makes it more dangerous for everybody.Common sense tells me that one or more perps planning on starting something will most likely be deterred if they know or suspect that I am armed...but that if they either cannot be dissuaded, or if they only learn after the onset of the action that I am armed, their knowlege that I am armed will put me in the gravest danger.

That gun will not protect you against a determined thief.It sure can if I can get to it. However, if I am on a crowded sidewalk and am set upon by two or three strong-arm or armed robbers without warning, the gun becomes theirs. For that reason, I think that there are places where it is not safe to carry a gun openly.

The off duty officer cited by Mas Ayoob died because he walked in on a robbery in progress, and someone called out for him to do something. Had they known that there was likey an armed policeman or citizen present before starting anything, the perps most likely would have waited or gone elsewhere.

In the city council shooting I mentioned above in this string, the shooter (Cookie Thornton) was going to kill everyone he could no matter what--he was not about to be deterred. Therefore, he shot the only two armed persons present first. That they were patrolmen is irrelevant--except to the extent that he more readily saw that they represented a threat to them because of the visibility of their uniforms.

That shooting, like so many others, occurred in a gun free zone. I suggest that it would never have happened in Elmer Keith's home town.

The city attorney reportedly survived by throwing chairs at the murderer while he ran for his life. Had he been carrying and not detected by the shooter as being armed before he could draw and fire, he would have been a whole lot more effective.

Whether you are safer or less safe carrying openly depends on where you are and on what transpires. Actually, you could be quite safe even if unarmed--if you are surrounded by other citizens carrying openly. Those guys and gals won't be "targets" for anyone--according to my common sense.

If you are one person carrying openly? Well, you'll be fine, unless (1) you happen to walk in on an armed criminal action in progress with a number of perps involved; (2) you happen to be where someone is going to start shooting no matter what; or (3) you are in a crowd and several perps working together to get your gun are able to grab or knife you before you know what's happening.

NavyLCDR
October 1, 2010, 08:23 PM
Common sense should tell you that you are a target and that makes it more dangerous for everybody.

Oldbanjo,

The felons themselves say that common sense dictates that an armed target is just too much effort and they will move on.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-screen.pdf

Page 31:

Fact: 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.

Fact: Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because they fear being shot.

Fact: 59% of the burglaries in Britain, which has tough gun control laws, are “hot burglaries” which are burglaries committed while the home is occupied by the owner/renter. By contrast, the U.S., with more lenient gun control laws, has a “hot burglary” rate of only 13%.

Fact: A survey of felons revealed the following:
• 74% of felons agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
• 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."

The felons themselves say that they don't like getting shot at, and therefore avoid armed targets.

oldbanjo
October 1, 2010, 09:15 PM
I read the info on that site and a lot of it makes sense. It was very well thought out. I still prefer both OC & CC be allowed then all bases are covered. This page has better info than the rest of this thread. Thanks for showing me that forum, I'll be looking at it every day for more info.

X-Rap
October 1, 2010, 09:16 PM
Banjo, when I OC I pack my engraved nickle plated 1911 with the black and white Punisher Skull grips in an Ostrich hide holster.
Pitty the fool who messes with me:rolleyes::D


Seriously
do can you not agree with the concept that we should be able to do both and as individuals decide on what is right at the moment?

I see you do agree.

oldbanjo
October 1, 2010, 09:18 PM
Navylt Some of what you have written I have seen on TV. Stroter or something like that.

oldbanjo
October 1, 2010, 09:28 PM
I 100% agree with that. There are definitely times when you would be unsafe with OC and In my case I know of one place where I might would consider OC, When on my motorcycle. I always carry a SP101 in my belt/waist when on the motorcycle I also carry a Bond Arms Derringer w/410buck & 45 Long Colt in a right side shoulder holster.

oldbanjo
October 1, 2010, 09:55 PM
I don't like showing my guns, to anyone. I live next to a pond in a wooded area. This road is 4 miles long dirt and may have 6 people living on it. I shoot at home I have a 180yd target here. I carry my guns out the house in bags, no one has seen more than one or two. I don't walk good because of bad hip and knees so I run my three dogs with a motorcycle or a motor scooter every day. I keep in practice shooting turtles all summer long w/Gamo Pellet Rifle w/3x9 scope. Anyone wanting OC should push for both not only OC, there are many advantages to having both. There are too many disadvantages to having one only. Some of what has been written on this thread should never have been written. People with CC are not wanting to kill people no more than OC. supporters are. If everybody sticks together everybody wins, fighting no body wins.

NavyLCDR
October 1, 2010, 10:18 PM
Some of what has been written on this thread should never have been written. People with CC are not wanting to kill people no more than OC. supporters are.

That was actually written as a retort.


Mainsail wrote this:
Concealed carry is for people who hope to shoot people, murderers really. They hope to surprise someone so they can kill them. They like to shoot kids. Bank robbers always carry concealed to surprise the tellers, so concealed carry folks are all bank robbers.

To demonstrate how ignorant this is:
Open carry is for show offs. Foolish show offs.

As evidenced by Mainsail's following statement:
It’s just as stupid the other way around.

There are times when open carry is more advantageous, and there are times when concealed carry is more advantageous. The smart person will choose the method that is most advantageous at any given time/circumstance/place and not limit themselves to one particular method 100% of the time - UNLESS they are required to do so by law. Nobody with intelligence can say that one method or the other is better 100% of the time, but many people without intelligent reasoning ability can certainly try.

oldbanjo
October 1, 2010, 10:48 PM
That was very good, This State has a nice law for hunters and fisherman (There iare no SCDNR restrictions on transporting firearms by licensed hunters and fisherman in a vehicle or on foot to and from a place of hunting and fishing.) That has been my CWP for 30 yrs. I always carry hunting and fishing license and collapsible fishing rod and reel w/my MD36 in a shoulder holster. I keep tackle in a plastic bag. I use this law today when carrying my Moss 500 loaded in reach.

stickhauler
October 2, 2010, 03:25 AM
Let's just use as a "for instance" a recent concealed carry holder using his concealed carry firearm to shoot 2 of his attackers and possibly wound the third in defense. It happened in Charlotte, NC and he's a delivery driver for Pizza Hut. He took a pistol whipping and beating at the hands of his attackers, and only used his concealed carry firearm when one of his attackers tried to pull up his shirt, which he knew would allow the bad guy to see the firearm. He felt at that point the bad guys were going to kill him and his store manager, he pulled his firearm and shot.

What would the bad guys reaction have been had they entered the store and saw him carrying openly? Since I'd say we would all agree, a robber likely is going to come in with guns drawn, ready to go, he's likely have been dropped immediately upon the robbers entering the store.

I live in a fairly urban area of Ohio now, Dayton, Ohio. I can assure you, if I open carried in my town, I'd make a lot of people very nervous, and I'd sure as all get out be hassled by the cops because these nervous folks would be calling 911 reporting a "man with a gun." I'd wager even going down home to SE Ohio, open carrying in my hometown of perhaps 1,500 people would cause a stir, and make some folks nervous. I might not be down prone on asphalt getting cuffed, but it sure wouldn't be "down home week" either.

Do I think open carry is safer than CC? Nope, I think it puts a 3 foot wide bulls eye on your back, as no human eye is on a 360 degree swivel, and trusting that your ability to see a possible threat before it reacts to seeing you is not possible.

Sure, some people may not even notice you've got a gun. But folks who are looking for any obstacle to getting their way is going to be scanning everyone there to see what threats are in their field of view. I'd sure feel like a total tool if I carried openly, and got shot in the back by a criminal simply because he saw my gun, and took me out before I could defend myself.

Those of you who actually think you're changing people's biases about guns by carrying openly are playing a fools game. They're already biased about guns, they simply see you as a cowboy trying to show you're a big man carrying a gun. Those who are indifferent to citizens carrying guns you are also helping them form an opinion as well. Most see you as a cowboy as well, and you're helping to push them towards a life membership with the Brady Campaign.

razorback2003
October 2, 2010, 05:52 AM
I can openly or conceal a handgun with a permit in Tennessee. We are generally not able to carry a loaded handgun, openly or concealed, without a permit, unless we are hunting, fishing, camping, target shooting, or on our own property/business.

I choose to conceal because of the work I do for a living. I have to deal with professional people and most of my customers would flip out if they saw me with my full sized 1911 on my belt when I take them out to eat or meet with them at their offices. It just would not work. I would be asked to leave their property. I could not go to the local/state government buildings with my full sized pistol openly on my belt without being asked to leave, even though it is legal in many cases. I could not go to eat at a decent restaurant that serves liquor (now finally legal) without being asked to leave more than likely in the course of my work. I dress in business slacks most of the time. A snub in an ankle holster or pocket holster fits my appearance a lot better and protects me just fine. There's very little weight too with a S&W 642. The hammerless design draws very very fast from say a coat or jacket pocket in the fall and winter.

I think those that want to carry it is their right in Tennessee but some are hassled and questioned by business owners and police. I've never been questioned or hassled because my gun is hidden. About the only time I openly carry a full sized handgun is when hiking at a state park or wildlife management area or hunting. Out in the woods, I don't care who sees my handgun.

Balrog
October 2, 2010, 09:45 AM
No one has given the slightest bit of evidence to show that OC makes you a target, 4 pages after I asked for anything at all that would support that statement.


Here is the story of a man who was supposedly targeted because he was open carrying:

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html


The pro gun people in Wisconsin seem to be using this story as a reason why concealed carry should be allowed.

Personally, if I was a criminal intent on mayhem, I would shoot people open carrying first.

oldbanjo
October 2, 2010, 09:58 AM
While I was eating supper in Israel a guy came in with cut off blue jeans, t shirt and a machine gun, that was very unnerving to me and I love guns. So I do see both sides. In the majority of cases I fill that CC is better but there are also times when OC has it's advantage. I prefer either or.

Dean1818
October 2, 2010, 10:02 AM
CCW by a long shot.

I live in the Dallas area.

I would rather be descreet, especially when there is a HUGE uneasyness
from the public, particularly in the City.

The vast majority of the population in the cities have NEVER handled or shot a gun. They have seen them only in LE, and on TV.

The TV generally make the guy with the visiable gun that is not an LE, as a bad guy.

To the average city dweller, regardless of your intention, fear occurs when an open weapon is displayed. You will not make this fear go away, just because you act curteous and responsible.

To the average city dweller the math works like this for a non-cop.

Gun = Bad guy = danger

I realize that someone shouldnt look at it this way, however, perception becomes reality.

If you live in the country, you probably were brought up around guns. You look at them as a tool. They are only as dangerous as the person holding them. I was born in the country and was brought up hunting so I have a proper respect of weapons.

Because our cities are gaining population and our rural areas are losing population, I believe a non- "in your face" approach is probably best.

Let me give you an example.

3 weeks ago, I am in a Frisco Texas (VERY conservative area) coffee shop and two homosexual men were openly making out. I dont understand that lifestyle. I dont want to see anyone making out in public, gay or straight. I find it disturbing.

I understand that this is their right, but it doesnt mean thay have to "go public" with everything.

I am not sure if everyone lives in a city or not, but let me tell you, the anti's are THICK in the cities, and in your face stuff doesnt help anyone.

As the votes continue to grow from the population centers, and the media and the schools give any gun holder the "gun nut" title, I am very happy to have the right to bear arms, a right that I will continue to fight for.

But....... In my humble opinion, CC works best for me in the city, and what keeps me comfortable and the folks around me. (Because they dont know)

I ask everyone to vote, and to support groups like NRA.

The "anti's" are very well organized and the population is being fed anti-gun propaganda by our media.

(IMHO) I personally believe that when you are in and around city folks, you will create more fear when you OC. Fear doesnt help gun owner in the long run.

I hope I havent offended, just an opinion.

Dean1818
October 2, 2010, 10:19 AM
One last point to consider.

Per a recent study by National Center for Law Enforcement Technology, one in 5 cops that were killed, were killed by thier own gun

Message?

1) An open carry weapon IS a target to be grabbed

2) If a trained LE, who is hired to be alert and watchful can have
his gun grabbed and used on him, it CAN happen to you.

3) In a city, there are too many people in very close proximity for a person to
keep thier eye on everyone, and to see if someone comes up behind to
grab your gun


So.... sorry for the "wordiness" but IMHO

Live in a Population center - CC ALL THE WAY
Live in the country - Whatever works for you

alexp
October 2, 2010, 10:30 AM
Well stated and most reasonable of the many comments here.

Travis McGee
October 2, 2010, 10:33 AM
I can conceal my 4" Xd 9mm in any weather here in Florida. IWB strong side, with an untucked shirt over it.

I would not want to open carry, and give away my greatest weapon, the element of surprise. To me, open carry is for open country. CCW is for everything else.

Travis McGee
October 2, 2010, 10:35 AM
...That said, I'm glad there is an "open carry movement" and some folks choose to OC. It makes the entire equation more problematic for criminals. But I would prefer that some other folks OC, and I will CCW.

Ole Coot
October 2, 2010, 11:03 AM
I personally like concealed carry, let the bad guys guess. I don't like to advertise I am armed and can still settle "problems". Open carry draws attention except in rural areas.

Sky
October 2, 2010, 12:03 PM
There are some really good points on both sides of the argument in this thread. Seems to me that if you have a permit to carry it should be the permit holders discretion whether to open carry or conceal. There are situations due to location where it might be advisable to OC due to surroundings and the opposite also applies.

If you have a concealed carry permit and accidentally expose your side arm and get hassled or worse by a LEO because your concealed became unconcealed then that sucks.

Have a permit to carry; the user/permit holder decides the perceived situation and deems appropriate actions for open or concealed. Does away with accidentally showing or brandishing a weapon charge..Seems reasonable to me. Now all we need are the politicals to agree.......

fortyluv
October 2, 2010, 12:14 PM
TexasRifleman

Sorry about the flippancy of my post (to the effect - oc is for showoffs.
Foolish ones)

Been lurking for a long time but not experienced in posting. I was thinking that comments were simply personal opinion and if your intent was seriously to persuade or dissuade an accompanying supportive link would be called for. My bad.
The penance ,lol, I have charged myself with, is to take the time to describe why I am not in favor of o.c.

It is just opinion. But the concern I was alluding to with my 'show off' comment is the "mine is bigger than yours" attitude prevalent among many. Particularly the immature.
There was a time when a small cal. one or two shot Deringer(sic)was considered to be an adequate SD CW. Now it is not uncommon for us to believe that .38's and 9mm's are lacking in sufficient stopping power for SD. CC or OC.
If OC were to take off I can see the same type that tried to out muscle each other with horsepower in their cars during the 70's trying to do the same with their exposed firearms. No. Not all. Only a small minority at first. But as they compete with each other for the biggest and baddest arms you can be sure that some of US will begin to wonder if our .357's are 'enough' when those around us are wandering the streets with AK47's,......etc.----That is what the first part of my comment (show off)
was in reference to.

The second part. Foolish. We generally assume that a licensed to carry permit is in the hands of a G. G. Not a B.G. Again. We think of ourselves. If you are like me and I assume most are, you have never had so much as an accidental, or more appropriately, an unintended discharge. And I go back 56 years to the USMC.
But all the B.G.'s started out as G.G.'s. That means there is nothing to prevent a GG from acquiring a CC/OC permit and then turning B.G.
But most important of all under the heading of foolish, again, in my opinion is that O.C. by a majority of those licensed will result in a competition of 'mine is bigger' which will lead the ambivalent (about gun control) populace to jump on the wrong side of the issue.
Do not interpret the above comment about the escalation of arms size to yourself unless you are immature an overly sensitive.

Having made this response I have to say the ensuing flames I have endured have been worthwhile. I found mainsail's link supporting OC to be interestingly edifying. And I offer this short link (http://www.msgunowners.com/gun-laws-f9/open-carry-thoughts-from-tiger-mckee-t8312.htm) to present the view of another concerning the pitfalls of O.C.
For me the bottom line is that OC has a much greater chance of inhibiting my grandson's right to bear arms. Not this year or next. But someday.
Down here in Fl. the seniors don't seem to mind people carrying concealed. But the sight of openly armed Tea party members at a rally was not good for us. And almost all the seniors I am referring to are strongly conservative Republicans and Libertarians. I DON'T want to lose their vote (even one) to the Bradys.

Regards

wheelgunslinger
October 2, 2010, 12:33 PM
I reckon I'm on the extreme opposite side of the argument from you, fortyluv.

I think that free men and women can carry weapons for protection and defense in a free society.
We have laws in place through every jurisdiction of the USA to penalize attempt, conspiracy, and the actual act of violence against another person or persons up to and including murder.
In my view, allowing or disallowing me to carry open or concealed is not the government's business.
It's also not my business to tell people who can and can't enjoy their natural rights.

OC is a way for free people to declare and enjoy their freedom.

Ultimately, I'm for people being able to choose for themselves whether they want to carry concealed or open and I don't think it's up to the State(tm) to infringe on anyone's right to do so.

I support your right to decide what's right for you.

fortyluv
October 2, 2010, 12:55 PM
Howdy there wheelgunslinger

Like your user name. My favorite is my 1955 S&W 25-2

Yeah, we're sort of on different sides. But only because of the fact that perception becomes reality.
I openly carry where I feel it won't adversely influence people to jump on the anti bandwagon. Unfortunately that is not on public property here in Fl. Down here the senior citizens think of people openly carrying as "cowboy gunfighters" looking for any excuse to clear leather. (by the way. I'm 73)
That is NOT the reality. But that perception becomes the perceived reality and I fear that it will lead to a restriction of my gun rights.

NavyLCDR
October 2, 2010, 01:01 PM
Let's just use as a "for instance" a recent concealed carry holder using his concealed carry firearm to shoot 2 of his attackers and possibly wound the third in defense. It happened in Charlotte, NC and he's a delivery driver for Pizza Hut. He took a pistol whipping and beating at the hands of his attackers, and only used his concealed carry firearm when one of his attackers tried to pull up his shirt, which he knew would allow the bad guy to see the firearm. He felt at that point the bad guys were going to kill him and his store manager, he pulled his firearm and shot.

What would the bad guys reaction have been had they entered the store and saw him carrying openly? Since I'd say we would all agree, a robber likely is going to come in with guns drawn, ready to go, he's likely have been dropped immediately upon the robbers entering the store.

Instead of playing the what if game, how about we play the what really happened in real life game, shall we?

http://vagunforum.net/general-discussion/open-carrier-saved-lives-richmond-shooting-saturday-t1225.html

and

http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/19/gun-owner-saves-lives-in-the-richmond-va-golden-market-shooting/

From the second article, since you obviously missed it stickhauler:

Here are my thoughts from watching that tape:

* Talk about a cold-blooded, fast attack where an innocent was shot without warning! Unbelievable. Situational awareness is really important. Luck doesn’t hurt, either.
* Open carry was an advantage in this case because in the video I saw just how fast the GO managed to draw his gun and begin to return fire. You always hear about how open carry is so bad tactically – you’ll be the first one shot, etc. Oh, yeah? The GO had a HUGE gun in plain sight and he was NOT shot. Who got shot first? An unarmed store owner.

Once again, the facts and historical data just don't support the theory.

And what else happens in real life in the real world?

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-atlanta/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw

According to stickhauler's theory the team casing the joint should have went out, got their friends and came back in guns blazing at the open carriers... but that's not what happened in real life.

NavyLCDR
October 2, 2010, 01:17 PM
It is just opinion. But the concern I was alluding to with my 'show off' comment is the "mine is bigger than yours" attitude prevalent among many. Particularly the immature.
There was a time when a small cal. one or two shot Deringer(sic)was considered to be an adequate SD CW. Now it is not uncommon for us to believe that .38's and 9mm's are lacking in sufficient stopping power for SD. CC or OC.
If OC were to take off I can see the same type that tried to out muscle each other with horsepower in their cars during the 70's trying to do the same with their exposed firearms. No. Not all. Only a small minority at first. But as they compete with each other for the biggest and baddest arms you can be sure that some of US will begin to wonder if our .357's are 'enough' when those around us are wandering the streets with AK47's,......etc.----That is what the first part of my comment (show off)
was in reference to.

fortyluv,

If you would hang around WITH the open carry community, at our functions, our picnics, etc... you would discover that the open carry community SUPPORTS each other, we don't compete against each other. We will leave that strictly for the gun range, just like car racing should be left for the racetrack.

Unfortunately that is not on public property here in Fl. Down here the senior citizens think of people openly carrying as "cowboy gunfighters" looking for any excuse to clear leather. (by the way. I'm 73)
That is NOT the reality. But that perception becomes the perceived reality and I fear that it will lead to a restriction of my gun rights.

Part of the problem, fortyluv, is that in Florida all you have is perception of open carry. You don't see the reality of open carry in Florida because it is illegal. You don't see the father at lunch with his wife, daughter and mother-in-law on a sunny mother's day morning, who just happens to wear a gun on his belt to be able to protect his family. You don't see the mother watching over her kids in the park with a gun on her belt to protect them with. You don't see normal Americans doing normal activities that everyone else around them is doing, the only difference being they have a gun on their belt.

IF open carry was legal in Florida AND there were sufficient normal Americans doing normal activities with guns on their belts, don't you think that perception could be changed by reality?

But that change in perception is never going to happen when we have our own members of the gun community making such remarks as all open carriers are foolish showoffs. That does absolutely nothing but set our cause back. And if you come here and make such comments, don't you think the anti-gun people pick up on the sentiment out there in real life too - and that reinforces their feelings?

There are some really good points on both sides of the argument in this thread. Seems to me that if you have a permit to carry it should be the permit holders discretion whether to open carry or conceal. There are situations due to location where it might be advisable to OC due to surroundings and the opposite also applies.

I would go one step further and say that no permit should be required for either method of carry. It works well with no problems in Alaska, Vermont and Arizona.

Sky
October 2, 2010, 01:28 PM
When I was in the service we always picked on some of the Navy fly boys but NavyLT you are alright!

Should not be considered a proposal for anything but respect. hahaha

NavyLCDR
October 2, 2010, 01:41 PM
When I was in the service we always picked on some of the Navy fly boys but NavyLT you are alright!

There is nothing wrong with picking on Navy fly boys. I am an Aviation Maintenance Officer. The fly boys generally deserve all the hassle we can give them!

Dean1818
October 2, 2010, 01:41 PM
In a CCW state, (Like my beloved Texas)

The LEO are not supposed to hassle you if you have an inadvertant
display of your weapon. (I.E. the wind blowing your shirt up, etc)

In a CCW state, (like Texas) there is no law to charge you.

This point is VERY important.

If you make notice of your CCW,(On purpose) and there is no threat you CAN be charged for a misdemeanor.

We may never agree on the OC or CC topic folks, but I would remind everyone of one more vastly important point.

The recent supreme court ruling was exactly 5-4 turning down the Chicago ban. 5 to 4 is like an end-zone catch at the end of the game.

We (the gun owning communicty) BARELY escaped a tremendous decison

If we have ONE, JUST ONE conservative Judge either pass or step down, we will have a HUGE problem.

Our less than conservative President, will most certainly put a new, more liberal typ judge in place. That is all that it will take.

The 5-4 vote will quickly turn to 4-5.

This is why EVERYONE needs to become an NRA member and VOTE.

Many of my most conservative friends are buying the anti gun approach.

We need to speak up, but not in an in your face approach that will shine poorly on all the gun owners

Mainsail
October 2, 2010, 01:41 PM
Per a recent study by National Center for Law Enforcement Technology, one in 5 cops that were killed, were killed by thier own gun
Message?
1) An open carry weapon IS a target to be grabbed
That’s quite a leap, and completely erroneous. It appears that you’re saying that one in five police officers are just walking along and are attacked by someone desiring to steal their sidearm. Did you apply any critical thinking to that, or can you only think in sound-bites? The truth is that ZERO in five officers were targeted for their gun; it never happens. Police officers cannot avoid trouble; they have to wade into it. They have to make arrests, wrestle, search, and handcuff people who have already displayed their preference for violence. In every case the officer’s gun was taken during the struggle to get a suspect into custody. I do not do that. I carry openly every day; I do not wrestle or arrest criminals. The comparison is inapt.

Excellent
Well stated and most reasonable of the many comments here. Worse, the person who posted after you heard your sound-bite, couldn’t be bothered to think about it, and agrees with you! This is the biggest threat to all of our freedoms; Americans have become too lazy to think critically, they sway with the wind and agree with the last seemingly reasonable sound-bite they heard. They cannot be bothered to actually think about what they heard to determine if it even makes sense. It was exactly this sort of intellectual lethargy that enabled the anti-gun groups to pass every gun ban scheme since the 60s. Guns kill! Saturday night specials are made for putting a man six feet in the hole! Assault weapons have no sporting purpose!

NavyLCDR
October 2, 2010, 01:45 PM
We need to speak up, but not in an in your face approach that will shine poorly on all the gun owners

Which is exactly why I carry my gun on my belt and not up in everyone's face. Besides, if I duct taped my gun to my forehead, it would hurt a whole lot to get it off there.

CHEVELLE427
October 2, 2010, 01:45 PM
I WOULD LIKE OPEN CARRY BUT DON'T WANT TO CARRY OPEN, RASION IS

FIRST IF MY GUN WAS TO SHOW IF I HAD TO REACH TO THE TOP SHELF TO GET SOMETHING AND SOMEONE SEES IT THEY FREAK OUT CALL THE LAW MAKE A SCENE,:what::eek::uhoh::rolleyes:

if open carry is legal it wont matter if my gun gets seen except the bad guy might see it then he has the upper hand if he decides he wants to try an take something from me.;)

NavyLCDR
October 2, 2010, 01:50 PM
the bad guy might see it then he has the upper hand if he decides he wants to try an take something from me.

Try to think really hard about this. I know it is going to require concentration....

How much easier would it be for the bad guy to wait two minutes for you to leave, or go to the next aisle or go down the street to the next convenience store and take what he wanted from the next person to come along whom was not visibly armed? If you want a steak, and a tiger and an alley cat are eating steaks - which one are you going to try to take it from, the alley cat or the tiger?

I don't understand this fascination with the theory that a gun makes one a target. 90% of the population does not appear to be armed!!!! Why in hell would the bad guys pick out the 10% hardest targets most likely to end their careers by putting them in a coffin?!? Criminals want to succeed at their chosen profession just as much as anyone else does, and getting shot does not boost their chances of a successful career!

If there are two banks, one block away from each other. One bank has a guard with a gun at the door. The other bank has mall cop at the door with no gun. Which bank are the criminals going to pick to rob?!?

It is such common sense that it is frightening.

X-Rap
October 2, 2010, 01:54 PM
Post 137 is right on the mark, couldn't be said better.

Mainsail
October 2, 2010, 01:54 PM
The fly boys generally deserve all the hassle we can give them!

Watch it bub, I worked hard for those 5650 flying hours. Of course, I was smart enough to do it in Air Force Starlifters. ;)

fortyluv
October 2, 2010, 02:01 PM
It seems to me there are two important differences here beyond whether we are individually physically and/or mentally more comfortable with O.C. or C.C.
Someone suggested I should spend some time with the perfect family of O.C.ers. at picnics and other outings and see how responsible they are. I am not concerned about how they present themselves. I am concerned about two young (or old) legally open carrying hotheads having a public shootout from the hip. Try to visualize the reaction. Think Brady.
I am interested in maintaining my carry rights. Not seeing them lost in a modern day western shootout. WE may not indulge in that kind of behavior. But someone else will and the fallout will indirectly and possibly directly affect all of us.

Regards

NavyLCDR
October 2, 2010, 02:09 PM
Someone suggested I should spend some time with the perfect family of O.C.ers. at picnics and other outings and see how responsible they are. I am not concerned about how they present themselves. I am concerned about two young (or old) legally open carrying hotheads having a public shootout from the hip.

So... why are you limiting that to open carry?!? :scrutiny: Wouldn't that be just as likely to happen with persons concealed carrying? Is the answer, using your "concerns", to be against ALL carrying of guns? You've been listening to the Brady Bunch too much... that's what the problem is.

There is one difference between the person who open carries and the person who concealed carries. That one difference is where their shirt gets tucked in.

You don't have carry rights in Florida. You have to obtain permission from the state to exercise a privilege that they allow you to.

CHEVELLE427
October 2, 2010, 02:09 PM
if he decides he wants to try an take something from me.




THINK HARD ABOUT THIS ONE.

your in the sticks and not another store around now you can be part of the robbers new pickings as there are limited funds at the stop and rob , he knows you have a gun you don't know he is robbing the place so he pops you first then goes on with business , gets the $25 in the register got your wallet and now has a new gun.

stop and rob's clerks have been killed for way less.

i do see your point it is just a job to the bad guy and like most all humane they want to do it the easiest way they can IN AND OUT.

but not all act like your describing, some just don't care, there the ones that when they were kids would Tye 2 cats tail together and toss them over a close line. or stick a turtle on a post. some just live to have power and don't care if the target is an easy one or not.

a court house had a nut job come in a while back he shot the 2 gaurds that had guns first then went looking for the judge , lawyer and his ex wife.
a gun in sight makes you a top choice on the hit list

Mainsail
October 2, 2010, 02:15 PM
I am concerned about two young (or old) legally open carrying hotheads having a public shootout from the hip. Try to visualize the reaction. Think Brady.
Florida led the nation in the Shall Issue concealed carry movement. The groups opposed to concealed carry claimed, using sound-bites that seemed believable, that there would be shootouts and mass killing. They said people would turn petty arguments over a parking space into an old-west style show down.

It didn’t happen.

Then, one by one, in every state that proposed concealed carry legislation, they made the same silly claims.

It was proved wrong every time. Why do you think it would be true for open carry? I don’t want to “think Brady” and I’m not sure why you are using their failed argument.

NavyLCDR
October 2, 2010, 02:20 PM
CHEVELLE427

You're right. I am going out now and pulling the seat belts out of my car. I am replacing them with a 5 point harness, roll cage, and fire suppression system. Not all auto crashes end up in a fiery roll over - but some do. So I should worry about the fiery roll over crash and take precautions, just in case.

60% of the criminals themselves admit they won't mess with a guy with a gun. The other 40% either lied about it or they will mess with me if I am carrying a gun or not. So, since they are criminals, all 100% of them would mess with me without knowing about the gun. 60% said knowledge of the gun would stop them. Why should I not deter those 60% from messing with me? Why not play odds that are in my favor?

oldbanjo
October 2, 2010, 02:22 PM
In SC there are a lot of guns being carried CC but most people, THAT VOTE, are not seeing them or complaining about them. Now with OC that changes all these people, THAT VOTE, see them and complain they could VOTE against your right to carry that gun. Then everybody gets screwed.

fortyluv
October 2, 2010, 02:27 PM
So... why are you limiting that to open carry?!? Wouldn't that be just as likely to happen with persons concealed carrying? Is the answer, using your "concerns", to be against ALL carrying of guns? You've been listening to the Brady Bunch too much... that's what the problem is.


Look. If there is a "throw down" between a couple of CC's it will not have the effect on the general public as two guys with hog legs strapped to their hips. You either have to understand this or are trolling or otherwise being obtuse.

Say the CC's have a shoot out. Tomorrow I step out of the house in CC mode. There is no reaction from folk.
Now suppose a couple of OC's clear leather.
The next day you step outside with something visible on your hip and I guarantee there will be a big reaction.

And forget Fl. It is where I live now. But I have done tours in N.C., Tex., CA., and other places.

And as far as being against the carrying of all firearms, that is a strawman and you know it.

fortyluv
October 2, 2010, 02:29 PM
In SC there are a lot of guns being carried CC but most people, THAT VOTE, are not seeing them or complaining about them. Now with OC that changes all these people, THAT VOTE, see them and complain they could VOTE against your right to carry that gun. Then everybody gets screwed.

That's the point I am trying to make. But unsuccessfully I'm sorry to say.

CHEVELLE427
October 2, 2010, 02:32 PM
some that have had little or no experience with guns and are scared to death of them, thanks to the news media
(the gun went off accidentally)
if your finger was not on the baing switch it ain't going off, it wont come alive in the night and shoot you as you sleep and mine are in the same spot i left them when i come back to check on them, not one has moved around the house.

My GF is sorta like this and she is out of the navy, should know that the gun is not alive it is as dead as the rock in the yard. nothing magic about it.

i think they should have a gun teaching class in school. city kids are more likely to shoot them self then country kids , as country kids we grew up using guns at a young age, from shooting rats in the barn to snakes on the pond, never had a thought to point it at someone much less shoot someone, always checked to see if it was loaded and cleaned it more then our rooms

CHEVELLE427
October 2, 2010, 02:38 PM
i don't think i would put a cage in your car
(dont know what your driving im sure it wont need one)
but the 5 point harness wont hurt, let me know if you find a deal as i need one for the chevelle,

never got around to a cage in it but it was only a 7sec 1/8 mile 100mph car in the late
70's

didn't even have an air bag either.

you still have that 40% out there

Sam1911
October 2, 2010, 02:38 PM
Now with OC that changes all these people, THAT VOTE, see them and complain they could VOTE against your right to carry that gun. Then everybody gets screwed.

Could be. Or could be that people start noticing law abiding, peaceable folks going about their business while armed and get used to the idea.

Gun owners can't hide beneath the public's radar for ever and we'll never change the world without pushing some folks a little bit outside of their comfort zone.

There are risks in keeping to the shadows. Staying on the fringe of society makes you easy to ignore and push aside.

Of course the public doesn't directly get to vote against our rights. The legislative and judicial processes that occasionally seem to stymie our progress also provide a buffer against fickle and fleeting swings of public opinion against us.

That in mind, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

22-rimfire
October 2, 2010, 02:42 PM
As a person generally pretty familiar with guns, I would certainly prefer to open carry as it is much more comfortable to me. BUT, we live in a world where if someone sees a gun, they may get excited if they believe you aren't a LEO. Therefore, I think it best to carry concealed regardless of state law. Even if open carry is legal, you can still be charged on other charges given a problem develops because of the visible presence of the firearm.

Both approaches are safe as long as you keep your finger off the trigger and don't drop the gun assuming you are not toting a six shooter without the safety feature where the round under the hammer could go off if there was an impact to the firearm.

As far as pushing the envelope and educating the public by example on open carry, I hesitate to do this. 20 years ago I would have thought nothing of pushing it, but now, I am not interested.

X-Rap
October 2, 2010, 02:49 PM
As I look at this thread I see some differences in geography that are worth noting. In the east it is rare to see OC in my experience but the further west you get it becomes more common excluding the places that you would expect like Ca. and such. AZ had open carriers flourishing long before any CC was available as did my state of Co. up and down the Rocky Mtns. OC has been a way of life and I can't think of one old west shootout even here in the old west. Whats up with that?

CHEVELLE427
October 2, 2010, 02:50 PM
Both approaches are safe as long as you keep your finger off the trigger and don't drop the gun assuming you are not toting a six shooter without the safety feature where the round under the hammer could go off if there was an impact to the firearm.


about all i was saying , i like the oc law but don't want to oc, it would just be easer if your gun was to ever be seen by a gun scared uninformed public, and wanted to call the law because they saw someone with a gun.

Mainsail
October 2, 2010, 02:55 PM
In SC there are a lot of guns being carried CC but most people, THAT VOTE, are not seeing them or complaining about them. Now with OC that changes all these people, THAT VOTE, see them and complain they could VOTE against your right to carry that gun. Then everybody gets screwed.

That's the point I am trying to make. But unsuccessfully I'm sorry to say.

Well, if that were true it would have happened in California, but it didn’t. No other state has the right combination of bleeding hearts, favorable press (sound bites), and inability to think critically like CA. They couldn’t ban it.

Here in Washington it would take a rewriting of our State Constitution, which would not be easy.

So we’re right back to where we started. One side believes that the right is superfluous, campaigns against those that exercise the right, and don’t care if it’s banned. The rest of us view all our rights as sacred, even the ones we don’t happen to be using at the moment.

Sam1911
October 2, 2010, 02:58 PM
I am concerned about two young (or old) legally open carrying hotheads having a public shootout from the hip.
As a group those that carry firearms legally have proven themselves to be the most careful, cautious, reasonable, and law-abiding portion of our society. In fact, the rates for serious crime among those who are licensed to carry arms (and by extension, those who are open carry proponents as well) are an order of magnitude LOWER than the rates for serious crime among law enforcement officers.

So the "what if they get into a shootout with each other" hypothetical situation is far-fetched enough to disregard it out of hand.

I am interested in maintaining my carry rights. Not seeing them lost in a modern day western shootout. EVEN IF some unfortunate situation occurs (as HAS happened occasionally between folks carrying concealed weapons) it takes more than one or two IMMENSELY rare altercations for laws to get changed against us.

The only way we can counter negative public opinion is NOT by HIDING -- but by making guns so common in the public eye that they lose their novelty. When the average suburbanite has seen a few dozen guns on the hips of their friends and neighbors they'll have a harder time thinking of them as something negative that only criminals would carry.

THAT will do more to protect your carry and gun ownership rights than hiding your piece under your jacket.

WE may not indulge in that kind of behavior. But someone else will
That's a fallacious argument. You have nothing to back up this assertion.

...the fallout will indirectly and possibly directly affect all of us.All crime which involves a gun indirectly affects us all. The "blood in the streets" hyperbole hasn't proved true when spouted by the Bradys -- and is isn't proved true just because you're uncomfortable about open carry, either.

oldbanjo
October 2, 2010, 03:00 PM
Fourtyluv: I finally figured out what I thought you were trying to say, and your right, that's a good point.

Sam1911
October 2, 2010, 03:02 PM
and wanted to call the law because they saw someone with a gun.

See, that's fine, though. A lot of dispatchers already know to advise responding officers that no crime has been reported and a lot of officers have been educated (some by their Chiefs, some by lawsuits) that they can't hassle/detain (or certainly ARREST) a citizen who isn't breaking the law.

Yes, you stand a somewhat higher chance of chatting with a police officer about your gun if you open carry. That doesn't have to be a negative thing.

Even if open carry is legal, you can still be charged on other charges given a problem develops because of the visible presence of the firearm.
Of course, that means that you have to have committed A CRIME -- which is a good thing to avoid on general principles -- and if you do commit that CRIME, chances are your gun will be a complication whether it was concealed or openly carried.

Does pay to be mindful, regardless.

fortyluv
October 2, 2010, 03:08 PM
Quote:
WE may not indulge in that kind of behavior. But someone else will
That's a fallacious argument. You have nothing to back up this assertion.


Sam -- are you saying it is a false argument that 'we' may not indulge in that kind of behavior or that someone else will?

In either case you are correct about me having nothing to back up my assertion. I would never thought it necessary to have to back it up. If you don't believe a couple of hotheads would draw down on each other it's fine by me. I just don't live in a world where I would not expect that to happen eventually.

Sam1911
October 2, 2010, 03:27 PM
Sam -- are you saying it is a false argument that 'we' may not indulge in that kind of behavior or that someone else will?


I'm saying that it is not logical to say that someone MUST do a thing -- especially if the thing you're suggesting requires the very very worst from some very responsible and law-abiding people.

In either case you are correct about me having nothing to back up my assertion. I would never thought it necessary to have to back it up. If you don't believe a couple of hotheads would draw down on each other it's fine by me. I just don't live in a world where I would not expect that to happen eventually.

I don't see many "hotheads" choosing to open carry. I see a lot of very cautions people who are rather the most mindful of their rights and responsibilities -- even moreso than those folks who carry concealed. The old "wild wild west" stereotypes and legends are untrue. Always were, in fact.

I also said that a vanishingly rare instance of a gunfight happening between two lawful open carriers (if and when, IF and when) doesn't necessarily do our rights some irreparable harm. It would take a rash of such instances over an extended period of time for public sentiment against us to percolate through the legislative and judicial realms to the point of reversing the last few decades of our positive legal momentum.

Now, if instead of standing still and hoping to sit our our victories, we're carrying the fight forward, continuing to move both law and public opinion in our favor, it will be harder for our opponents to stop our momentum, let alone push back our prior progress.

oldbanjo
October 2, 2010, 03:32 PM
When I was in Israel eating and a man came in wearing cut offs a t shirt and carrying a machine gun I instantly stopped enjoying my meal. This would have been greatly improved if his gun had been CC.

Sam1911
October 2, 2010, 03:34 PM
When I was in Israel eating and a man came in wearing cut offs a t shirt and carrying a machine gun I instantly stopped enjoying my meal. This would have been greatly improved if his gun had been CC.

O.k. But that says more about you than his rights or the realities of the situation.

From what I understand in Israel, a certain portion of the population does choose to go armed for the protection of themselves and their fellow citizens from some very significant threats.

If a submachine gun is the proper defensive choice, I'd hate to have him forced by law to have to deploy it from under a concealment garment.

If you were exposed to firearms like that on a more regular basis, you wouldn't be so skittish around them and would probably come to appreciate the violence-deterrent effects of your fellow citizens standing visibly ready to defend.

oldbanjo
October 2, 2010, 03:39 PM
Who would have believed what McBeigh did, The DC shooter was a trained Sniper, The kids in Col. Things happen people are crazy today.

oldbanjo
October 2, 2010, 03:50 PM
I'm not skittish of nothing the problem is they all look alike and I didn't know who's side he was on. In Israel Boys are in Military 3 yrs, girls 2 yrs they must carry gun the entire, time no matter where they are, hitch hiking, at the pool, at the Wailing Wall where ever. That no way to live.

X-Rap
October 2, 2010, 03:50 PM
Sam you are dead on with that last statement. In 94 I was in Israel for about six weeks and by the time I left I thought nothing of seeing people armed with automatic weapons that spanned six decades of the country's history. When out in the desert back country it was comforting knowing that there were armed citizens around and it wasn't uncommon to see them hiking, picnicking or at the beach with full auto assault rifles. Most of their military carried their service weapons as well and it was not uncommon to see a pistol in the belt of man on the street. The facility that I was at had strong boxes in the entrance area for the man on the street to store his weapon while there visiting or working.
Banjos comparison doesn't really work for me because in Israel at that time CC was not allowed by the public and all handguns were visible to my recollection. I see his point on the machine gun being intimidating at lunch but their view was that they wanted all the guns in site.
The worst was having all those weapons and being forbiden to have our own.

Sam1911
October 2, 2010, 03:52 PM
Who would have believed what McBeigh did
McVeigh? The OK City bomber? ... right so we shouldn't open carry because he blew up a building?

The DC shooter was a trained Sniper
No he wasn't. While in the Army, Muhammad was trained as a mechanic, truck driver and specialist metalworker. He did manage to shoot Expert with the M-16.

He was about as far from legal open carry of a sidearm as possible.

The kids in Col.
Columbine? Again... what?

Things happen people are crazy today.
Is this a declaration that you've abandoned your argument? We're certainly far from any sort of relevance to the question at hand.

Ironically I think you may have helped prove my point to fortyluv: John Mohamed and Lee Malvo killed 10 people with an AR-15 rifle in 2002. The public around DC was terrified. Two years later Congress -- meeting RIGHT THERE INSIDE THE BELTWAY they'd so terrorized -- allowed the federal Assault Weapons Ban die without a whimper, removing the primary restriction on EXACTLY the kind of weapon they used in their murders.

Despite horrible things like this making months worth of front page news, our progress to roll back and improve gun laws has INCREASED dramatically during the last two decades.

Stop worrying that people won't LIKE us and help us move forward.

X-Rap
October 2, 2010, 03:52 PM
Who would have believed what McBeigh did, The DC shooter was a trained Sniper, The kids in Col. Things happen people are crazy today
None of those things are relevent and the DC killer was no trained sniper and had the kid do most of the shooting.

Sam1911
October 2, 2010, 03:56 PM
they must carry gun the entire, time no matter where they are, hitch hiking, at the pool, at the Wailing Wall where ever. That no way to live.

You're right to a point. It would suck to be REQUIRED to carry a weapon when you didn't want to.

It is wonderful to have the right to when you so choose.

oldbanjo
October 2, 2010, 03:59 PM
I was there in 91, I was not comparing CC laws, I was stating that things would have better if the gun had been out of sight.

X-Rap
October 2, 2010, 04:07 PM
I was there in 91, I was not comparing CC laws, I was stating that things would have better if the gun had been out of sight.
I understand, my point is that they work on the opposite assumtion and believe things are better in the open. They are living a totally different lifestyle there and the threat is always present, I think we might soon see a similar mindset along the border if things don't soon shape up.

oldbanjo
October 2, 2010, 04:10 PM
You are right, in that area there should be OC, and AR15's.

General Geoff
October 2, 2010, 04:16 PM
I was there in 91, I was not comparing CC laws, I was stating that things would have better if the gun had been out of sight.

Because the sight of openly carried guns makes you uneasy? That indicates a trust problem on your part, not a carry method problem on everyone else's part.

Sam1911
October 2, 2010, 04:21 PM
I was there in 91, I was not comparing CC laws, I was stating that things would have better if the gun had been out of sight.

You were where? Israel or DC? I was moving to the DC area while the shootings were going on.

And better for whom for the gun to be concealed? The guy carrying the gun? The terrorists he carries a gun to resist? Or you?

And HOW would it have been better?

"Excuse me, I'm afraid of your gun. Could you hide it from me?" What kind of fobia are we dealing with?

NavyLCDR
October 2, 2010, 04:24 PM
All this talk of open carry causing panic and 911 calls....

What needs to happen is people need to call 911. The cops need to show up. The cops need to see the open carrier, and, if they approach them at all need to be seen, in public, saying, "Well we got a 911 call about you, but we see there is nothing to be concerned about here, have a nice day!" It would go a long way to promote the positive image of guns if people started seeing that. We are never going to get to that point if we hide our guns like evil objects.

Usually, what does happen in public, though, is this:

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?66458-South-Sound-OC-Report........&p=1369088&viewfull=1#post1369088

Olympia:
Safeway Gas @ Cooper Point 9:30am. Had the lady in the vehicle behind me in line while I was pumping gas get out of her car and personally thanked me for carrying my weapon. She asked to shake my hand and said that she appreciated me carrying my gun in the open.

Lacey:
Harbor Freight @ Lacey Blvd 11:00ish. Went in because it was super sale day and bought some items. Gentleman approached me and said "nice XD, I carry an XD .45". Said thanks and he mentioned that he is a Thurston County Deputy. Said that he wished more people would carry and let it be known. He also mentioned that he wished more of the LEO community would just accept it and be done. He gave me his card and I let him know about this site.

The majority of comments I have gotten while open carrying are positive. And I've also had the ugly police encounter as well...

Sam1911
October 2, 2010, 04:25 PM
Usually, what does happen in public, though, is this:

Are you sure they didn't really say this?

"Excuse me, I'm afraid of your gun. Could you hide it from me?"

General Geoff
October 2, 2010, 04:26 PM
All this talk of open carry causing panic and 911 calls....

What needs to happen is people need to call 911. The cops need to show up.

Disagree. What needs to happen is for 911 operators to ask the caller if the gun is holstered, and if the carrier is doing anything actually illegal, before dispatching police officers. Statistically, a person openly carrying a holstered sidearm is far less likely to be committing or planning to commit a crime than the general populace.

Dean1818
October 2, 2010, 05:17 PM
"That’s quite a leap, and completely erroneous. It appears that you’re saying that one in five police officers are just walking along and are attacked by someone desiring to steal their sidearm. Did you apply any critical thinking to that, or can you only think in sound-bites? The truth is that ZERO in five officers were targeted for their gun; it never happens. Police officers cannot avoid trouble; they have to wade into it. They have to make arrests, wrestle, search, and handcuff people who have already displayed their preference for violence. In every case the officer’s gun was taken during the struggle to get a suspect into custody. I do not do that. I carry openly every day; I do not wrestle or arrest criminals. The comparison is inapt."

Mainsail, I am glad you were there for every one of these cases to observe that "ZERO" times did the perp come up from behind and take the cops weapon.

My point is that with a weapon in view the chances of someone grabbing your gun is infinitely higher than someone who is CC'ing.

My stats about one in five cops being killed by their own guns is a fact.

Whether a perp came up behind and saw the pistol and grabbed it or they wrestled, I dont have that data, I wasnt there and the report that I saw didn't give the details.

If you are on a crowded street with folks bumping into you constantly I would bet that you wouldnt be able to stop a determined person from grabbing your gun and using it. I may be wrong.

As I stated before, have at the OC in the country. Knock yourself out.

Many of the folks in the smaller towns have the correct view of weapons and are extremely comfortable with guns. You shouldnt have problems.

However, for those of us that found work in the metropolian areas, most of the folks in cities are terrified when someone walks in with a gun that isnt an LEO. They have been taught to do so.

Your posts on a gun board wont change that fact.

We should be thankful that we still can carry a weapon either CC or OC, especially with the current administration.

The fact is, more and more folks, especially in the high populatiion areas think poorly on guns. Our schools and media continue to portray the gun owners as gun nuts.

Currently I have a law that allows me to CCW, I like it. It works for me.

After a generation or two when we are both taking dirt naps, I fear that
our grandchildren wont have the opportunity to own guns without the votes to sway our political leaders

Then an arguement of OC or CC wont matter so much.

Vote !
Join the NRA!
Teach your kids to enjoy guns!

Dean1818
October 2, 2010, 05:21 PM
Navy

"Which is exactly why I carry my gun on my belt and not up in everyone's face. Besides, if I duct taped my gun to my forehead, it would hurt a whole lot to get it off there"


I think that they have one of those holsters that you are talking about at Uncle Mike's

Erik M
October 2, 2010, 05:33 PM
Im glad that I live in a rural enough area of Ky that if I choose I can carry a sixgun in a nicely tooled crossdraw holster and no one says a word, other than a rare compliment on the gun leather.

fortyluv
October 2, 2010, 05:41 PM
Dean - You have said it all (for me) in post #179.

stickhauler
October 2, 2010, 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stickhauler
Let's just use as a "for instance" a recent concealed carry holder using his concealed carry firearm to shoot 2 of his attackers and possibly wound the third in defense. It happened in Charlotte, NC and he's a delivery driver for Pizza Hut. He took a pistol whipping and beating at the hands of his attackers, and only used his concealed carry firearm when one of his attackers tried to pull up his shirt, which he knew would allow the bad guy to see the firearm. He felt at that point the bad guys were going to kill him and his store manager, he pulled his firearm and shot.

What would the bad guys reaction have been had they entered the store and saw him carrying openly? Since I'd say we would all agree, a robber likely is going to come in with guns drawn, ready to go, he's likely have been dropped immediately upon the robbers entering the store.
Instead of playing the what if game, how about we play the what really happened in real life game, shall we?

http://vagunforum.net/general-discus...day-t1225.html

and

http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/19/g...rket-shooting/

From the second article, since you obviously missed it stickhauler:

Quote:
Here are my thoughts from watching that tape:

* Talk about a cold-blooded, fast attack where an innocent was shot without warning! Unbelievable. Situational awareness is really important. Luck doesn’t hurt, either.
* Open carry was an advantage in this case because in the video I saw just how fast the GO managed to draw his gun and begin to return fire. You always hear about how open carry is so bad tactically – you’ll be the first one shot, etc. Oh, yeah? The GO had a HUGE gun in plain sight and he was NOT shot. Who got shot first? An unarmed store owner.
Once again, the facts and historical data just don't support the theory.

And what else happens in real life in the real world?

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...bbery-kennesaw

According to stickhauler's theory the team casing the joint should have went out, got their friends and came back in guns blazing at the open carriers... but that's not what happened in real life.

So then, according to you, posting 2 stories, one where the open carry guy got lucky, the second where the "recon" member of a robbery team left the place and they tried to leave proves the wisdom of open carry? I don't think so.

First off, the #1 example, the open carry holder was, according to the story, standing in line waiting to pay for his purchases. Was he carrying on the side the BG could see, or out of the BG's view? We don't know. But using either method of carry, when he observed a robbery in progress, he could have brought his firearm to action, that hardly proves open carry being more effective, or safer.

In #2, seeing 2 open carry holders sitting there, according to the story stopped the planned robbery. But, had the guy who came in to case the joint missed seeing the open carry holders, would they have left or simply proceeded to rob the place? Would the two open carry holders had a chance to stop the robbery attempt. Neither of us know. Since these guys were in the process of leaving the place when police arrived, they must not have payed much attention to the dude who came in to check the place out. Had the robbers decided to go on with their plans to rob the place, would their choice of openly carrying a firearm stopped the robbery? Or would they have been dispatched with 2 quick shots by the robbers when they entered the place?

I know what works in my town, and open carry is legal in Ohio, but I know for damned sure if I opted to open carry in an urban area like Dayton, I'd make more people anti-gun advocates than persuading them to see openly carried firearms as normal. I'd get just as many enemies to our effort by doing so down where I grew up in SE Ohio.

Why? Because those who are not part of the gun culture still view a openly carried firearm just as they saw it in western movies, remember how many westerns you saw where the sheriff required people to surrender their guns while they were in town? How the town folks who saw a guy with a gun in one of two ways, either a law man or a criminal? Perception is reality in our society.

I know, given the time, either of us can find countless examples we believe demonstrates our point of view of how to carry. That fact remains, and just because we

rscalzo
October 2, 2010, 06:17 PM
The truth is that ZERO in five officers were targeted for their gun

There have been documented case of exactly that. But one in five?? No way. Those stats are off.

30mag
October 2, 2010, 07:26 PM
I don't think OC is any safer than CC.

The difference between the two is probably statistically negligible.

Mainsail
October 2, 2010, 09:02 PM
As I stated before, have at the OC in the country. Knock yourself out.

Many of the folks in the smaller towns have the correct view of weapons and are extremely comfortable with guns. You shouldnt have problems.

However, for those of us that found work in the metropolian areas, most of the folks in cities are terrified when someone walks in with a gun that isnt an LEO. They have been taught to do so.

Your posts on a gun board wont change that fact.

I don’t just post on gun boards. I carry openly EVERY DAY. In the country, in the forests, in the parks, in the city; my rights are the same wherever I happen to be. I do so in Tacoma, Bellevue, Seattle, and on the steps of the Capitol Building in Olympia. Seattle is easily the most liberal city in the whole Pacific Northwest, and Tacoma was ranked the most dangerous. Say what you want, my experience holds a lot more value in my decision than yours (and others) speculation and wild fantasies.

General Geoff
October 2, 2010, 09:31 PM
However, for those of us that found work in the metropolian areas, most of the folks in cities are terrified when someone walks in with a gun that isnt an LEO.

My experiences carrying openly in a city of ~120,000 people for the past four years speaks differently.

the foot
October 2, 2010, 09:48 PM
Carry in a way that is legal in your state. The main point is, though, that you exercise your right to carry. Stay within the law, accomodate law enforcement officers when they question you, and keep it civil.

If arrested, or if law enforcement officers attempt to intimidate you, then after it's all over you can file suit against them.

The main thing is that you must exercise your right to carry firearms.

Double Naught Spy
October 2, 2010, 11:15 PM
I was driving home and thought... some people bring a bigger size gun to their CCW exam, but when they carry, they will carry a smaller gun.

So generally we get better accuracy from a larger handgun, wouldn't that make open carry safer than conceal carry?

You know, I don't think open carry will get very many folks to carry larger guns. So many folks carry small because they don't like the heft of larger guns. Many carry smaller because of clothing issues, like summer carry, but you aren't going to get many guys to open carry big guns with that summer short pants.

General Geoff
October 3, 2010, 12:25 AM
You know, I don't think open carry will get very many folks to carry larger guns. So many folks carry small because they don't like the heft of larger guns.

A lot of people sacrifice size for concealability. The actual weight difference between a .380 pocket pistol and, say, a full size 5" 1911 is only a pound and a half, negligible with a sturdy belt and quality holster.

NavyLCDR
October 3, 2010, 01:42 AM
Carry in a way that is legal in your state. The main point is, though, that you exercise your right to carry. Stay within the law, accomodate law enforcement officers when they question you, and keep it civil.

If arrested, or if law enforcement officers attempt to intimidate you, then after it's all over you can file suit against them.

The main thing is that you must exercise your right to carry firearms.

Why do you consider exercising your 2nd amendment rights to be more important than exercising your 4th and 5th amendment rights? For instance, if a police officer in Washington wants me to produce ID and check me out to make sure I am legal to carry a gun only because I am carrying a gun, do you suggest I give up my 4th amendment rights to accommodate him?

A similar example would be if I was eating lunch with my step-daughter in McDonald's and a police officer wanted to ID me and verify the step-daughter was mine and that I wasn't kidnapping. Would that be OK too? There is no difference. Carrying a gun in McDonald's is every bit as legal as eating lunch with my step-daughter.

Aren't all of our rights protected by the 1st, 4th, 5th and 2nd amendments equally important?

Dean1818
October 3, 2010, 10:14 AM
One thing is clear on this topic.

We will have to agree to disagree.

I spend a great deal of time with clients in the Seattle area and I have never seen anyone OC there. I have to admit, I am not looking for it though.

As I stated, maybe rudely, .......Go for OC, or in your case, keep doing it.

For me I am very happy to have CC, and personally the constant issues I'd have with anti's (mainly clients) its not worth it. (I have to work with "suits and ties" folks)

I see many CC VS. OC arguments, I have my views you have yours.

While we are expending energy on these topics the MUCH BIGGER concerns are gun law trends, current media bias, highly liberal indoctrinated school systems, lack of shooters training their children on guns, (about half of children are now being raised by single parent homes by their mother, who PROBABLY dont make going to a range or hunting a priority, AND may be sharing the media bias and lies with their kids) and our trending liberal / socialist government. (Both Dems and reps.)


I hear from folks all the time that say that "We will ALWAYS have guns in the USA"

Look at history to see what happens to personal firearm ownership as countries turn socialistic.

There are STILL folks in England that are saying "What happened????"


Vote!
Take your kids to shoot / hunt !
Be responsible / Be safe !
Ask your kids what your teachers are saying about guns/hunting!
Join the NRA !


If we dont, the future arguement will be something like this:

Old man1
"Remember when we had guns?.......... I thought OC was better"

Old man2
"You're CRAZY, ............CC was always better"


The ANTI's are well-funded and growing......... we all have to get involved.

oldfool
October 3, 2010, 01:41 PM
nope
CC is a prudent precaution
OC is a statement
guns are not unsafe, people are unsafe
carry yours however it pleases you, and be safe

NavyLCDR
October 3, 2010, 03:23 PM
nope
CC is a prudent precaution
OC is a statement
guns are not unsafe, people are unsafe
carry yours however it pleases you, and be safe

OC is no less of a prudent precaution than CC is. What is really sad, though, is how the idea or thought of a person carrying a gun to protect themselves and their families with upsets so many "pro-gun" and/or "pro-2A" people. It is also sad to see "pro-gun" and/or "pro-2A" people make sweeping, stereotyping, and negative comments regarding an entire segment of the gun carrying community. We should leave such actions to the Brady Campaign and other anti-gun groups and not be participants in their tactics ourselves.

oldfool
October 3, 2010, 06:08 PM
OC is no less of a prudent precaution than CC is. What is really sad, though, is how the idea or thought of a person carrying a gun to protect themselves and their families with upsets so many "pro-gun" and/or "pro-2A" people. It is also sad to see "pro-gun" and/or "pro-2A" people make sweeping, stereotyping, and negative comments regarding an entire segment of the gun carrying community. We should leave such actions to the Brady Campaign and other anti-gun groups and not be participants in their tactics ourselves.
if you saw that as "negative", blame yourself, not me, friend
your interpretation, not my intent
I wear a shirt w/ a Browning or S&W or Colt logo on it, or fly an American flag on my own front porch, or carry my gun in an OC hip holster, it's a "statement".. mine

anybody thinks an American flag on your own front porch or wearing your own gun on your own hip is somehow wrong to do that, is better served being offended by someone who says you should not do that
(I never said that)

hint, the SUBJECT was "safer"
(any time you really want to know what I think, just ask, but be prepared to be a little bit less offended)

be well, shoot well, stay safe
(and carry your gun legally any way you want.. we do)

oldfool
October 3, 2010, 06:33 PM
sorry about that, but...
these OC VERSUS CC threads get way out of hand way too fast
it's not a versus thing, get over it
we really do have enough enemies, and they really are out to get us
they do not need our help

I don't hardly ever wear my own gun OC, but never once been offended by anybody who did
and "been places, done things", that make a white horse in a black herd look pretty tame by comparison, and probably offended some folks, but I lived thru it and got over it, and I guess they did, too

maybe Pogo was right, but it doesn't have to be that way, not unless we make it be so
it doesn't have to be my way vs. your way, it can be our way
(but I am gonna' shut up about that now, promise)

TexasRifleman
October 3, 2010, 06:39 PM
if you saw that as "negative", blame yourself, not me, friend
your interpretation, not my intent

I saw it the same way. Why is OC a "statement"? Why can't it just be "because it's more comfortable" or "just because I feel like it".

Sorry, you can't say it's not a CC vs OC thing then put spin on how someone open carries only to make a statement.

But you are right, enough of the "versus" stuff.

We should all be free to carry however we wish. If someone doesn't want to open carry that's fine but there should be none of this infighting among pro gun owners and no second guessing a persons reasons for choosing one over the other.

Some of the statements made by some folks in this thread are exactly what the anti's would say, and I find that very disappointing.

oldfool
October 3, 2010, 07:00 PM
"how someone open carries only to make a statement."

breaking my promise here, but only once, no matter what gets said next
there was no red ONLY in what I said
but that's what people see, because of the vs. thing
my fault

guns are not unsafe, people are unsafe
that I stand on, OP
Don't you think Open Carry is safer than CC? ("nope")

respectfully

Kleanbore
October 3, 2010, 07:12 PM
The original question was not about "statements" and such. The question was whether open carry is safer than concealed carry. I suggest that it's highly situation dependent.

If you are walking alone to your car in an open parking lot, you may be a potential "target" for a robbery, mugging, car jacking, or worse. Highly unlikely, I think, but the possibility of your being attacked does exist, and you do not want it to happen.

Now, whom would you think to be the more likely target, a person known to be armed (read: a person carrying openly) or a person who may or may not be armed? I happen to think that the person with a gun carried openly would not make the easiest target for a mugging and that the perp would likely choose someone else for a target.

So, in a scenario such as this one, it would seem rather clear, at least to me, that open carry is "safer" than CC.

Take a situation in which more than one perp have among their highest priority objectives the immediate acquisition of a firearm, and the open carrier goes onto the list of potential targets, and other s probably drop off. Assuming that he is paying attention to his surroundings, he is probably pretty safe in that open lot (unless the perps are willing to shoot him for his gun--highly unlikely, I think). However, if he gets into a situation in which he can be jumped without warning and overpowered, he is probably less safe than someone who is not known to be carrying a gun.

Situational awareness? Probably wouldn't help in a crowd, but--stay out of crowds and away from cover such as bushes and other cars, and the risk is highly mitigated.

Go where the dangers include predatory mammals of some size, and the balance generally shifts back. Most of us simply cannot conceal a good sized Ruger or N-frame revolver effectively. Who is safer then?

No one answer.....

swinokur
October 3, 2010, 08:29 PM
Or more likely, you simply would not continue your robbery at all and go find another place with no visibly armed customers.

The argument that bad guys look for guns to shoot first assumes that bad guys WANT to be in a gun battle and I don't believe that is true for the majority of criminals out there.

spot on rifleman. i don't believe there are any stats on this and is not provable

saying OC is less or more dangerous because the BG sees you weapon is from the same pile of Internet dung as "racking your shotgun will scare the bad guy"

really?

cites please


I CC and OC the same weapons, a G30 or a full size 1911.

swinokur
October 3, 2010, 08:35 PM
OC is no less of a prudent precaution than CC is. What is really sad, though, is how the idea or thought of a person carrying a gun to protect themselves and their families with upsets so many "pro-gun" and/or "pro-2A" people. It is also sad to see "pro-gun" and/or "pro-2A" people make sweeping, stereotyping, and negative comments regarding an entire segment of the gun carrying community. We should leave such actions to the Brady Campaign and other anti-gun groups and not be participants in their tactics ourselves.

If we all believe in freedom,who cares? up to the individual

no right or wrong here at all.

FREEDOM

tack
October 3, 2010, 08:51 PM
If CC is such a HUGE tactical advantage, why do the police, military, and band guards give up their advantage and open carry? The way I see it, OC is an advantage before an assault while CC is an advantage after an assault. I think an ounce of deterrence is worth a pound of surprise because I'd rather avoid a gunfight than have to win one.

I live in ********** and can hardly do either. Now you know why I like Nevada and Arizona.

General Geoff
October 3, 2010, 08:57 PM
I think an ounce of deterrence is worth a pound of surprise because I'd rather avoid a gunfight than have to win one.

Agreed wholeheartedly. :)

JohnBiltz
October 3, 2010, 11:23 PM
I really hope this was a joke.
Generally with Police for the same reason they have Police written in big letters on their cars. So they can be identified as a presence.

With military they carry so much other stuff it doesn't matter and its pretty hard to CC rifles and crew served weapons. Plus by the rules of war they have to have a visual means of identification anyway, at least for conventional forces.

benEzra
October 3, 2010, 11:32 PM
I was driving home and thought... some people bring a bigger size gun to their CCW exam, but when they carry, they will carry a smaller gun.

So generally we get better accuracy from a larger handgun, wouldn't that make open carry safer than conceal carry?
Both methods have their pros and cons. I prefer concealed; I can carry a very effective handgun discreetly, and I don't like the idea of laying all my cards on the table for your hypothetical assailant to look at. And in my experience a draw from concealment isn't significantly slower, particularly given the fact that OC in a confined/crowded area almost requires a retention holster.

I am not saying CC is the only rational choice, or that people shouldn't be allowed to OC, it's just not my choice.

Mr.Davis
October 3, 2010, 11:36 PM
So generally we get better accuracy from a larger handgun, wouldn't that make open carry safer than conceal carry?
I reject your general premise.

Better accuracy does not a safer carry method make.

Also, smaller guns aren't necessarily inherently less accurate, but they can be harder to shoot accurately. Even if they are, that doesn't mean they become less useful for self defense. If I can shoot three inch groups at 10 yards with my full size semi-auto, and can shoot six inch groups at 10 yards with a tiny pocket gun, then is that really any different for purposes of carry?

Beyond that, safety while carrying has far more to do with awareness and the element of surprise when attacked than it does with accuracy. Not to mention, combat accuracy rarely approaches "calm Wednesday evening at the range" accuracy.

oldbanjo
October 4, 2010, 11:26 AM
Here is an example of the problems that can happen. Today I was looking at USACARRY and read that a steak house owner had gave some OC supporters permission to have a meeting at his business. They came on one of his business days and one of them brought an AR15. This isn't intelligent, one person could screw up everything for everybody.

Sam1911
October 4, 2010, 12:02 PM
They came on one of his business days and one of them brought an AR15. This isn't intelligent, one person could screw up everything for everybody.

Did something bad happen? What was the problem?

Mainsail
October 4, 2010, 12:46 PM
…one person could screw up everything for everybody.
This seems to be a recurring theme for you. Since I no longer live in SC I cannot really comment on how precarious your rights are there, but suffice to say that not all of us view our rights as being so uncertain. You expressed this back on page six or seven, which I refuted. You offered no argument in response. As I said, it didn’t happen in CA, and if it were going to happen anywhere, it would have happened there.

We all come into this forum and exercise our First Amendment rights and express our views. Using your logic, the forum should be closed. After all, if using a right in a way that isn’t currently ‘politically correct’ endangers all forms of the right for everyone, it would be best to keep free speech rights hidden, lest they be outlawed. Do you doubt that much of what is expressed here in this forum would be considered dangerous by certain groups with differing viewpoints?

You have a very narrow view of firearms rights it seems. You agree to concealed carry, but disagree with other methods or viewpoints. You (and a couple others) make sweeping statements of your opinions but always lack any reasonable argument to back them up. If you think open carry will “screw up everything for everybody”, then make a reasonable argument for your position! I would love to understand from where you get these opinions! Anyone halfwit can make a claim, but that doesn’t make it an intelligent discussion. Someone can post a claim that concealed carriers in SC are all members of NAMBLA, but it’s asinine stupidity unless they can make a reasoned argument to back it up.

Several of us, without even working together, have completely refuted every case that has been made against open carry presented in this thread, using reasoned and thoughtful argument. If all you and others can do is just continually restate the same unsupported claims (that have already been soundly disproved by those of us who actually open carry) then your intent appears to be that you argue for the sake of arguing.

youngda9
October 4, 2010, 01:56 PM
^^ #208, Nailed it Mainsail !!

NavyLCDR
October 4, 2010, 01:57 PM
I would say that pretty much all the opinions and facts have been presented. It's really up to the person choosing to decide which method of carry is best for them and up to them to choose the reasons for their decisions. I just wish people would quit saying that their choice of carry method is "wrong", "foolish", "showing off", "to make a statement", "damaging", etc. I have tried to avoid giving the impression that I am against any method of carry, because I am not. What I am against is sweeping statements made that historical data just does not seem to support and have attempted to provide the factual data. I would suggest: let them carry their gun how they choose to, don't ridicule anyone for it, and let's move on :D.

TexasRifleman
October 4, 2010, 06:27 PM
After 9 long pages, NavyLT gets the last word, and says it all as well as it can be said.

We are all on the same side, never forget that. Our enemies love nothing better than to see us fighting amongst each other, and we're not going to do that.

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