NJ Carry reform.


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Demitrios
October 1, 2010, 04:40 PM
NOTICE: I've noticed some confusion on this thread and a lot of people are talking about the $500 carry permit that was proposed by Senator Van Drew (D) of Cape May. That bill is S2264 and is unrelated to this bill, A1384 which does not charge a fee at all.

I got this e-mail today and it looks like I'll be writing a letter soon. I implore anyone else to right a letter to the following as well, even if you don't live in NJ. Remember it may not be a state you're
interested in even visiting but it's still regarding your rights as well.:

Recently, I sent the following letter to the Chairman of the New Jersey Assembly Law and Public Safety Committee:


Hon. Gordon Johnson
545 Cedar Lane
Teaneck, New Jersey
07666

Re: A-1384

Dear Chairman Johnson:

Shortly after my election to the Legislature in 1995, I introduced the predecessor of the above-cited Bill. Same was referred to this Committee, as has been every subsequent incarnation thereof, where it languished.

In light of the recent decision by the United States Supreme Court in McDonald, there exists essentially no doubt that many of New Jersey’s draconian restrictions on the fundamental right to keep and bear arms will not survive a legal challenge. As a result, New Jersey has essentially two choices: legislatively respect the constitutional rights of its citizens, or face the inevitability of being compelled to do so by the judiciary.

The consequences of legislative inaction – leaving aside the denial of fundamental constitutional rights – could be hugely expensive for the taxpayers. Litigation is, as you know, very costly and, since the plaintiffs are almost certain to prevail in a challenge, they would likely be entitled to an award of counsel fees in addition to invalidating NJ’s unconstitutional laws.

I respectfully request, then, that the Chairman schedule the above proposal for Committee consideration with all deliberate speed.

Respectfully,
Michael Patrick Carroll



As you have written me in favoring Second Amendment rights, let me ask you a simple favor:

Write to the committee chairman, as well as each member of the Committee, respectfully requesting that this measure be posted. In order to maximize the impact, I ask you to do it via snail mail (we old folks tend to respect paper more than electrons). Use your own language so that it cannot be dismissed as a form letter. Ask each of them to respond to you, in writing, respecting their position.

Already, some Members of the Majority see the handwriting on the wall. Senator Van Drew recently introduced a concealed carry law. Although it needs work – the fees are unconscionably high and the training requirements disconcertingly vague – it represents a welcome step in the right direction. Now is the time to press for true reform.

The addresses of the other committee members are here:

Assemblyman Nelson T. Albano
21 North Main St.
Cape May Court House, NJ 08210

Assemblyman Jon M. Bramnick
251 North Ave. West 2nd Floor
Westfield, NJ 07090

Assemblywoman Elease Evans
100 Hamilton Plaza Suite 1400
Paterson, NJ 07505

Assemblywoman Amy H. Handlin
890 Main St.
Belford, NJ 07718

Assemblyman Paul D. Moriarty
129 Johnson Road Suite 1
Turnersville, NJ 08012

Assemblyman David P. Rible
1955 Highway 34 Bldg. 2A
Wall Township, NJ 07719

Assemblywoman L. Grace Spencer
223 Hawthorne Ave.
Newark, NJ 07112

Assemblyman Gilbert L. "Whip" Wilson
Audubon Commons Shopping Center
130 Blackhorse Pike 1st Floor Suite D-3
Audubon, NJ 08106

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xXxplosive
October 1, 2010, 05:52 PM
Lived here my whole life.....seems you can get anything done here if the price is right.....$500.00 per year for the permit......I'm hearing.
Don't get me wrong..........we deserve to have our 2A rights garanteed here in NJ even though a NJ Supreme Court Judge recently stated they weren't.
But if any state could pass this for a DOLLAR AMOUNT.......rest assured NJ could along with the rest of the corruption gone wild in this state.

Horny Toad
October 1, 2010, 06:09 PM
"$500.00 per year for the permit......I'm hearing."


Ouch.

I've lived here my whole life as well. I'm amazed it's being considered at all. I mean, I'm glad, but jeez, if it's that expensive.....that's just insane. Wouldn't surprise me though. I can only imagine what the restrictions would be.

HGUNHNTR
October 1, 2010, 06:22 PM
I sure hope it gets passed, even at $500/yr.

Horny Toad
October 1, 2010, 06:26 PM
I'd like to see concealed carry in NJ too, but I think there's a better chance of monkeys flying outta my butt.

HGUNHNTR
October 1, 2010, 06:32 PM
If NJ could tax the monkeys, charge them for flying lessons, and require you to have them registered and inspected (for a fee of course) I'm sure they could arrange it.

Tom609
October 1, 2010, 07:02 PM
...but I think there's a better chance of monkeys flying outta my butt. :D

I'm trying not to get too excited, but this seems to have more legs than previous attempts. Maybe because NJ pols will do anything for money, and they need it badly. I'll write the letters and do my part. If it flies, the $500 can later be challenged as excessive. For the record, I'll pay it to get this train moving.

xXxplosive
October 1, 2010, 10:28 PM
Sad thing is.........I'll pay it too.

This state really just exudes a stench in the nostrels of decent people....

razorback2003
October 2, 2010, 06:01 AM
I guess a 500 dollar license is cheaper than the fine and lawyer costs of getting caught for illegally carrying without a license right now. I've heard NJ is a little tough on illegally carrying without the hard to get NJ license. Yeah 500 bucks I'd gladly pay too if I lived in NJ or did work in NJ. I pay around 100 bucks a year for my car license every year to Tennessee.

NJ would be smart to pass it and take the cash. There wont be a lot of people getting the license. Only a few who actually want to carry.

alsaqr
October 2, 2010, 08:56 AM
I'd like to see concealed carry in NJ too, but I think there's a better chance of monkeys flying outta my butt.

Agree.

Worked in NJ for a couple of years in the 90s. A pro-gun candidate has very little chance of being elected in NJ because most NJ voters are anti-gunners.

Demitrios
October 2, 2010, 01:01 PM
alsagr says: most NJ voters are anti-gunners.

Not to say that you're wrong but I've lived in NJ my whole life and it's been my experience that most people I come across aren't anti-gun so much as ignorant about firearms and/or just don't care about them.

alsaqr
October 2, 2010, 02:07 PM
Not to say that you're wrong but I've lived in NJ my whole and it's been my experience that most people I come across aren't anti-gun so much as ignorant about firearms and/or just don't care about them.

Methinks you are right.

mstrat
October 2, 2010, 06:10 PM
it's been my experience that most people I come across aren't anti-gun so much as ignorant about firearms and/or just don't care about them.

This is similar to what I've noticed living in Cook county IL. The representatives and senators in the northern part of our state have been able to keep draconian laws in place because they people have been led to believe, through the Daley administration's support of certain extreme groups (IL Council Against Handgun Violence) that *guns* cause crimes.
No mention of the poverty and drug use - that leads to gangs, which leads to fighting over scraps of the drug trade.

That's not an easy problem to fix, so the politicians find an inanimate scapegoat (guns) so they can trumpet to the voters that they were successful in helping to end violence.

Nevermind the fact that decades after gun bans went into place, violent crime has continued to soar and this is one of the worst places to live in the country.

Yet the people don't seem to make this connection, or as you mentioned, just don't care. It's going to take some serious activism to show people that guns aren't the problem (as evidenced nearly every state in our union which have CCW on the books, and lower crime than anti-gun places like DC and Chicago).

Tom609
October 3, 2010, 10:14 AM
Quote:
Not to say that you're wrong but I've lived in NJ my whole and it's been my experience that most people I come across aren't anti-gun so much as ignorant about firearms and/or just don't care about them.

Methinks you are right.

I agree totally. Firearms are so alien to the majority of people in a "gun free" society that it just isn't on their radar.

Downr@nge
October 3, 2010, 12:30 PM
I will absolutely write the letters and send them to these people. I too would pay the $500 and plan to challenge it later. And to be honest, most people I come across that I bring up the topic of guns to are pro gun.

AirForceShooter
October 3, 2010, 12:53 PM
There's only one guy in NJ that counts now.
I don't have a clue what his position on guns is.

So just write the nutty Governor.

AFS

xXxplosive
October 4, 2010, 12:17 PM
The authorities in NJ do not want the public armed.....they have stated it at the Chiefs Conference.
Recently a NJ Supreme Court Justice wrote that NJ does not garantee your 2A rights.
And I also agree, many Gardenstaters don't have much of an opinion on firearms as they are uneducated about them, don't hunt or target shoot let alone CCL issues.
What do I need a gun for ? Is what I'm use to hearing from my neighbors. That's what we pay the police for.

Dean1818
October 5, 2010, 06:29 AM
Just curious for the NJ THR members.

You new governor seems to have his fiscal "head on straight" (we salute you from TX)

How does he sit on carry?

Downr@nge
October 5, 2010, 10:33 AM
Dean1818, don't be fooled. Chris Christie is an arrogant crook. He is anti gun also.

xXxplosive
October 5, 2010, 02:26 PM
Remember in NJ...........No Good Man Wants The Job.

IMO...most likely an Anti..........but not sure. The last Pro gun Govenor was Christie Todd Whitman........had a reason to visit at their home once and was suprised to hear they have their own Trap N' Skeet field.....high and low house on the back 40.

Tom609
October 6, 2010, 03:09 PM
As someone pointed out already elsewhere, the Governor is no friend to gun owners, but he looks to be interested in becoming a Republican on the national level. If so, he'll have to show respect and support for the 2nd A. It could be good timing. I'm such an optimist...

Doc Simonson
October 6, 2010, 04:34 PM
We Don't Need No Steenking 2nd Amendment
http://www.soifer.com/jon/2nd.htm

This was a really good article. Thanks for sharing it. I am going to save a hard copy so I can always share the info with friends who don't quite get it.

Demitrios
October 7, 2010, 11:46 AM
Doc, that was an incredible article, thank you for sharing.

Horny Toad
October 7, 2010, 11:54 AM
"Doc, that was an incredible article, thank you for sharing."

Actually, that's from my sig line, but I'm glad he posted it too. :)

I've always felt the article is a bit too long, but it's a great read.

Doc Simonson
October 7, 2010, 01:27 PM
I probably should have copy/pasted Horny Toad's user name to the quote, or used quotations marks. My bad! :evil:

So you live in the great State of New Jersey also, HT? I hear the chances of us ever having our right to bear arms recognized are near zero. I almost wish I'd have moved to Pennsylvania instead.

raz-0
October 7, 2010, 04:41 PM
There's only one guy in NJ that counts now.
I don't have a clue what his position on guns is.

So just write the nutty Governor.

AFS

As told to me by members of his campaign staff (pretty high up the chain), it boiled down to he'll avoid making it worse, but don't expect any help form him.

Downr@nge
October 7, 2010, 09:39 PM
Thanks for that article Doc Simonson! I've already passed it around to some of my friends!

megatronrules
October 9, 2010, 09:38 PM
I feel that $500/year is a bit steep,however its only $40 something a month really. I whole heatedly believe in a "right to carry" vermont style or shall issue permit system for all states.

However if this is the only way for New Jerseys citizens to lawfully carry to protect themselves,then it may be the best way to go for now.

bushmaster1313
October 9, 2010, 09:57 PM
This is a prohibitive amount that would make it unconstitutional

However, first get right to carry then challenge the annual fee!

Horny Toad
October 9, 2010, 11:38 PM
".....if this is the only way for New Jerseys citizens to lawfully carry to protect themselves...."

It'll never happen. I think it's interesting that it's being discussed, however.

THE DARK KNIGHT
October 10, 2010, 01:43 AM
I feel that $500/year is a bit steep,however its only $40 something a month really.

It's a lot more $500 a year. You need to qualify twice a year, I used to have to do that for security job here in NJ and the lowest price for qualification was $100.

So now we're up to $700.

Next you need a psych evaluation every two years, no clue how much a shrink costs per hour but probably tack on another $300 for that?

Now we're up to $850 a year.

Next, it includes "other fees". NJ police do not do the fingerprints for gun permits anymore, they send you to a company called Sagem Morpho. It's $63 to get fingerprinted.

$913 a year.

It also places no limit on local towns. Here in my town there's a $25 municipal fee to turn in a gun permit application. Some towns are closer to $50. We'll use my town at $25.

So it comes out to around $938 a year. This is not including money for time taken off work to make it to fingerprint appointments, gas costs to drive around doing all this crap, etc. etc.

The guy pushing the bill says it's "based off of neighboring states" but I guess not for the fees part. PA CCW is $26 and valid for five years. I could pay 180 years worth of PA CCW fees vs. 1 year of NJ CCW fees.

GRIZ22
October 10, 2010, 02:52 AM
It also places no limit on local towns. Here in my town there's a $25 municipal fee to turn in a gun permit application. Some towns are closer to $50. We'll use my town at $25.


I have never heard of a town in NJ charging a "municipal fee" for a gun permit (Pistol Purchase or FID). What town do you live in? What other towns charge these fees? I believe these fees are illegal.

THE DARK KNIGHT
October 10, 2010, 02:58 AM
Sorry but I am not willing to share what town I live in. I will PM it to you. I live in Union County and several towns here all charge a municipal fee. Scotch Plains also hands out an illegal form in addition to the paperwork asking what the intended use of the gun is, why the person wants one, etc. In July they denied a man a permit because as his reason he put "home defense" to which the chief denied him because "there isn't a lot of crime here" and an appellate judge upheld the denial

In Essex and Passaic counties some towns also do this as well. Clifton also has some notorious and downright scary letters that they send to references and employers. "Do you think _____ is qualified to own a gun?" is among their questions.

Down in Atlantic? or is it Ocean? counties Belmar also hands out illegal forms. There has been efforts to contact NJSP and stop the towns from doing these illegal forms but it is still ongoing last I checked.

Check out www.njgunforums.com you will see every week or two is a new post of someone's town and their crazy illegal forms. To those not familiar with NJ law there is a state law that makes it illegal to hand out extra forms but it is enforced horribly and loosely and from what I have gathered many towns get away with it.

stevek
October 10, 2010, 09:30 AM
Morris County checking in...last time I applied for pistol purchase permits, about a year and a half ago, they were $2 each, good for 90 days, and the town would not renew or extend the time limit.

Downr@nge
October 11, 2010, 07:28 PM
Didn't realize the stipulations and fees on this one. Wow!

Downr@nge
October 11, 2010, 07:30 PM
@ The Dark Knight, I didn't realize the stipulations and fees on this one. Wow!

Doc Simonson
October 14, 2010, 10:51 PM
As one of my friends would say, "All gun control laws violate the 2nd Amendment!" :D Seriously, Those extra forms are pure harassment and should be stopped. When I got my FID and first permit to purchase a handgun, everyone told me it would take six months here in New Jersey. Since I live in the country I apply through the local State Patrol HQ. I think it took less than 4 weeks for my ID and permit to show up. I was amazed. And very thankful.

NJGarand
October 15, 2010, 11:56 AM
I can't really see this happening. Not here. Too many concrete jungle sheep that believe every word the Dems spout out about NJ's strict laws making it safer here. They can't see that many of the top 20 (if not top 10) most violent cities in the country are in NJ. Trenton, Camden, Newark, and Jersey City are all up there. Lakewood, Hillside, Irvington and Asbury Park are creeping up more and more.

xXxplosive
October 15, 2010, 02:12 PM
FYI....Atlantic City was on the nations Top Ten List........ahead of Camden.

NJGarand
October 15, 2010, 02:39 PM
Yeah, thanks. I forgot AC.

Demitrios
October 15, 2010, 03:33 PM
I think we're all missing the point here, the idea to isn't just for NJ residents to squabble about what will and won't happen but to take an active step and say something en masse. I urge people even OUT of state to be outspoken about this situation.

xXxplosive
October 15, 2010, 03:45 PM
Here, Here........agreed, although we all know this will be a rough hill to climb, it must be done.

Horny Toad
October 15, 2010, 04:37 PM
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'll write a letter to support this, but there isn't a chance in hell that this will go anywhere.

Demitrios
October 18, 2010, 02:11 AM
There's a very good chance this won't go anywhere. To say this is an uphill battle is an understatement, but if we get our names out there, if we communicate, if we slowly creep our way up the ladder eventually our voices will be heard. When our voices are heard we will have a representative who will back our mutual interests, if that representative becomes popular enough others will follow suit and back up the issue we're fighting for. When that happens the issue will gain enough momentum that maybe, just maybe we can obtain what is rightfully ours.

The last thing we need is to say, "Oh this will never happen." what we need to say is, "This could happen and my God we have a long uphill battle but it is possible to win, let's just keep pressing forward.". That's the kind of attitude we need.

Tom609
October 18, 2010, 03:13 PM
Demitrios and XXX are right. It always ****** the **** out of me when I hear someone from Missouri (or wherever) comment on how "those people from NJ have no one to blame but their apathetic selves...blah, blah, blah." Doing nothing only makes them right.

smartshot
October 18, 2010, 06:07 PM
yeah nj is a higher cost of living and has been forever. NY state residents can deer and bear hunt for almost 3 months for about 20 bucks, while nj residents pay almost 300.00 for all the deer licenses and permits. Nothing surprising here folks. For some changes to be made in nj, politicians always ask, "how much money will this bring in for the state?"

Jim K
October 18, 2010, 11:17 PM
It is my understanding that you don't need a permit to carry a concealed weapon in NJ. If stopped by the police, you just show your Mafia ID and the letter from your Capo and the police bow and apologize for the inconvenience.

Jim

Murphy4570
October 19, 2010, 05:53 PM
West Deptford, Gloucester County checking in.

I'm extremely pessimistic about any changes in regards to the laws in this state. The urban metropolises of New York City and Philadelphia are both so close in proximity that their evil anti-gun thinking has leeched itself into New Jersey, and there's no way to reverse it.

My short-term plan is to own firearms in this state.

My long-term plan is to move to a friendlier state (Florida and Pennsylvania are both high on that list right now), rather than continue to put up with the BS around here.

wraenking
October 19, 2010, 06:40 PM
www.nj2as.com



Gents,

Michael Patrick Carrol will be at our next meeting on November 17th , 8pm, at the American Legion, on Church Road, in Toms River. We will also have another interesting function lined up for that night that might appeal to a lot of people. We need YOUR help. Now is the time to act on NJ gun laws, and that is why we are organizing. Please visit our website, join the forums, support us in any way you can. Once i have the OK, i will announce the other plans for that night. We have a lot of good things happening, but we cannot do it alone. We need everyones support! Please spread the word about our organization!!

Thanks

Tom

www.nj2as.com

Murphy4570
October 21, 2010, 11:47 AM
wraenking, are there any plans to have events in Gloucester County? Toms River is a mighty far drive.

wraenking
October 21, 2010, 02:53 PM
For now, we are focusing on keeping the meetings in the Toms River area. We understand that distance is a factor, and in the future we would like to hold events on the weekends, BBQ's < Shoots, etc. Even if someone cant make the meetings, please join our site and contribute what ever you can. We need all the support we can get!!

Thanks

Tom

www.nj2as.com

MAUSER88
October 21, 2010, 04:08 PM
Dream on Fellow NJ gun owners. NJ never has and never will pass any pro 2A laws.

Check the history going back the the 60's.

Never going to happen here I'm afraid.

wraenking
October 21, 2010, 05:34 PM
Unfortunately, there are a lot of others in NJ with that attitude. Nothing WILL be change unless we continue to battle. Now is the best opportunity we will have to fight for our rights!

xXxplosive
October 21, 2010, 05:38 PM
We must use the recent USSC decision in our favor and press on.......it must be done......there's no lookin' back.

wraenking
October 21, 2010, 06:45 PM
Exactly. Thats why we need as many supporters as we can get . Please join the NJ2AS!!

www.nj2as.com

therewolf
November 15, 2010, 02:41 AM
We, THE PEOPLE, have the power to vote with our wallets, also.

938$ is a DROP IN THE BUCKET to what a gun owner who shoots a lot spends. Maybe when business owners see the drop in revenue caused by greedy pols over exploitive permit costs they'll make they're reps in the state capitol reconsider their stance.

Don't want to let me shoot in NJ?

SOLID! I'm not particularly a fan of the cancer state, anyway.(I grew up here, so I've earned the right to say this.)

I'LL buy my guns,ammo, targets, range-time, permits, accessories,gas and repairs for my car, food, restaurant stops,tourist expenses, etc,

in a shall-issue state like the one I just moved to. I don't want to live in a state whose crime rates are sky-high because of misbegotten gun control laws, anyway.

Hey guys, Pennsylvania would WELCOME your shooting dollars, and is only across a medium river spanned by some LARGE bridges...:scrutiny:

smokeyandthebandit05
December 7, 2010, 11:59 PM
Saw this in the paper today.

http://www.njherald.com/story/news/07KIDNAP12-10

Demitrios
December 8, 2010, 12:26 AM
This was filed halfway through or late in November. I remember reading this in the paper, it's great that the ball has finally being rolled. Now we need to hope that we win.

You can read the case complaint here http://anjrpc.site-ym.com/resource/resmgr/docs/nj_rtc_complaint.pdf

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