New Caliber - 300 AAC Blackout


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OnPointFirearms
October 1, 2010, 06:04 PM
http://www.onpointsupply.com/images/aac_300blk.jpg

Just saw this on AAC's Facebook page. Seems like the caliber we've all been waiting for. Hard hitting, quiet, and seats 30 in a standard GI magazine. Comes in 123gr, 155gr, and 220gr flavors. This thing is going to be the HEAT like Bobby Deniro! Seriously, here are some links:

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2010/09/29/300-aac-blackout-new-caliber-new-mission/

http://300aacblackout.com/

What do you think? I'm downing a pitcher of this AAC/Remington Kool-aid right now! First thing Monday morning, I'm calling Mers at AAC to see about getting an upper and some ammo.

-- Evan

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OnPointFirearms
October 1, 2010, 06:25 PM
http://www.onpointsupply.com/images/300_aac_blackout_300blk_1.jpg
http://www.onpointsupply.com/images/300_aac_blackout_300blk_2.jpg
http://www.onpointsupply.com/images/300_aac_blackout_300blk_3.jpg
http://www.onpointsupply.com/images/300_aac_blackout_300blk_4.jpg
http://www.onpointsupply.com/images/300_aac_blackout_300blk_5.jpg

OnPointFirearms
October 1, 2010, 06:26 PM
http://www.onpointsupply.com/images/300_aac_blackout_300blk_6.jpg
http://www.onpointsupply.com/images/300_aac_blackout_300blk_8.jpg
http://www.onpointsupply.com/images/300_aac_blackout_300blk_9.jpg
http://www.onpointsupply.com/images/300_aac_blackout_300blk_11.jpg
http://www.onpointsupply.com/images/300_aac_blackout_300blk_12.jpg

Z-Michigan
October 1, 2010, 06:29 PM
If you live in a state that allows SBR and/or suppressors, and you have the funds to buy them (tax stamps and all), it looks very promising.

Otherwise, it's a novelty.

OnPointFirearms
October 1, 2010, 06:59 PM
I don't think a 16in upper in .300blk would be any more of a novelty than a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8spc. In fact, with the backing of Remington/AAC, this may become more of a common round than either of them.

essayons21
October 1, 2010, 08:21 PM
So basically this is just a 7.62x39mm tweaked for an AR? Am I missing something groundbreaking here?

ETA: The ability to switch between subsonic loads and supersonic loads and maintain good performance in both seems promising, but what about the platforms? Will an autoloader cycle the subsonic and supersonic loads without adjustment?

Z-Michigan
October 1, 2010, 08:23 PM
Yeah, I may have been hasty. But without the benefit of an SBR or a suppressor, the cost per found better not be too high, maybe 75 cents/round as a cutoff for general purpose ammo (FMJ or PSP). Any sense of the cost? Even 6.8 SPC costs a bit much for me to adopt it.

jmorris
October 1, 2010, 08:28 PM
Looks a lot like a 300 whisper. What does it do that the whisper doesn’t?

TeamPrecisionIT
October 1, 2010, 08:33 PM
That's what I was about to ask, it looks very similar to the .300 whisper loading.

Damian

NCsmitty
October 1, 2010, 08:34 PM
I'm wondering why the round wasn't given a couple tenth's more neck and case capacity. It certainly could stand to have a bit more performance available to extend it's range beyond 200yds.
We already have the 300 Whisper with similar design and ballistics.



NCsmitty

atomchaser
October 1, 2010, 08:39 PM
It is essentially a 300 Whisper. It is exciting to see a major manufacturer backing it. If they can produce the ammo at a reasonable cost, it may really bring the caliber into the mainstream.

PTK
October 1, 2010, 08:40 PM
What does it do that the whisper doesn’t?

Easy; it brings AAC money instead of SSK. ;)

RainDownmyBlues
October 1, 2010, 08:51 PM
It's ballisticly equivalent to what? 7.62 39?

If it's meant to be a replacement cartidge for the military it better be able to be shoot a decent distance. I saw that it touted it's short range capabilities, but nothing about reaching out. We are an Army based on marksmanship.

One of the gripes I had in Afghanistan is that our unit all had M4's. My last tour I had a SDMR modified M16A4, slightly different ammunition but I was able to reach out much further than the M4. Unlike in Iraq, we were fighting mostly in mountains, hills, and fields. Quite a few times we had to adopt Marine tactics of two rifle suppression while the rest of the squad rushed- just to get within a reasonable range. Wouldn't have been an issue if we could have reached out a bit further and picked them off.

RainDownmyBlues
October 1, 2010, 10:26 PM
Man, hardly have any posts and I think I'm a thread killer. Every time!

CoastieShep
October 1, 2010, 10:43 PM
THE MAGIC BULLET HAS BEEN FOUND!!
Yeah, just looks like an underpowered 7.62x39 to me.

HorseSoldier
October 1, 2010, 10:48 PM
Meh -- I don't think it gives sliced bread a run for its money, and militarily it's certainly not going to go any further than the ballistically superior 6.8 Rem SPC got.

7.62 Nato
October 1, 2010, 11:01 PM
Looks like AAC/Rem. is taking a peice of the Pi.

NCsmitty
October 1, 2010, 11:05 PM
Man, hardly have any posts and I think I'm a thread killer. Every time!

Not hardly! You echo what's been happening for nearly 50 years. There's only so much you can do to improve the 5.56 ammo and platform.
Sometimes you just need a bigger gun.



NCsmitty

millertyme
October 1, 2010, 11:10 PM
What can be said that hasn't already been said?

SharpsDressedMan
October 1, 2010, 11:30 PM
If I was SSK, I'd still tap them on the shoulder about my part of the proceeds. They are totally robbing any claim to design and development.....it is so close to the .300 Whisper, it might even chamber in weapons made for same. I see a lawsuit! Ballistics MIGHT be a little hotter, but then again, they might even be overrated.

Zak Smith
October 1, 2010, 11:31 PM
The ballistics they post are more or less identical to what I get from my 10" .300 Fireball/Whisper.

RainDownmyBlues
October 2, 2010, 12:08 AM
Not hardly! You echo what's been happening for nearly 50 years. There's only so much you can do to improve the 5.56 ammo and platform.
Sometimes you just need a bigger gun.



NCsmitty

That is probably the solution. However, I will say. You hear a lot of people Beltch about the 5.56 at, lets say, knock out power. i didn't have a problem. If you hit someone in the off hand with a 30-06 they still have fire capability.

I spent most of my time in Afghanistan, with only a two month lay over in Iraq. I was SsGT in the 82nd and we didn't see jack in Iraq. Some patrols and no assault missions, so I don't have much experience in that field.

However, when my company first landed in Afghanistan with M4's, it was already pretty obvious it wasn't a good idea. The Marines kept the M16A4 for good reason, it's a rifleman's weapon, the M4 is meant for small time work. I hated the M4 on my first tour. And was glad I had the SDMR M16A4 on the subsequent two. It wasn't the M14, but I reached out a good 800 meters, while most of my squad was bricked at 300.

By the time I was Ssgt I had to give up the SDMR to a Corporal, and I carried the M4 again. We need a rifle in Afghanistan, not a g-d sub-machine gun. The 5.56 suffered some range difficulties, but not compared to the 7.62 they were using. The issue was our rifles. And M4 is a house clearing weapon, not a battle weapon. I bet it was fantastic, if not a bit late, in Iraq, but had no place in the theatre I served. As my experience the 5.56 had great elimination, just pop them twice. But that should be followed no matter what round.

As Ssgt I had to take charge of the battalion as lead officer, and then another three months getting the actual CO used to operations. I professed to my soldiers to become proficient in semi-auto because full auto was completely wasteful. Especially as desolate as we were. We couldn't even get batteries for our NV. And as far as I know he continued such. We have accuracy and training on our side, where as they do not. Our deficiency was range without an intermediate rifleman. We took care of that with the SDMR, but even then we faced a times where we had to push with undue possible loss.

rsilvers
October 2, 2010, 12:16 AM
I am R&D Director at AAC, and the project lead on this.

Everything 300 AAC BLACKOUT does, 300 Fireball, 300-221, and 300 Whisper were capable of doing. But there was no SAAMI standard - and there were too many loading manuals with data inappropriate for the AR. We created a standard, released it for anyone to use royalty free, and introduced it to SAAMI. We have a metric ton of affordable ammo coming - lower than 6.8 SPC prices.

RainDownmyBlues
October 2, 2010, 12:30 AM
I am R&D Director at AAC, and the project lead on this.

Everything 300 AAC BLACKOUT does, 300 Fireball, 300-221, and 300 Whisper were capable of doing. But there was no SAAMI standard - and there were too many loading manuals with data inappropriate for the AR. We created a standard, released it for anyone to use royalty free, and introduced it to SAAMI. We have a metric **** ton of affordable ammo coming - lower than 6.8 SPC prices.

So truth be told, it honestly has not military application... I've seen the add saying it could be "the next big thing," but being a recently discharged soldier I see nothing that holds merit. 50 yrd clearing is not going to mean anything. What I want to see is what the ammunition can do at 300yrds at least.

68wj
October 2, 2010, 12:35 AM
Just saw this on AAC's Facebook page. Seems like the caliber we've all been waiting for. Hard hitting, quiet, and seats 30 in a standard GI magazine. Comes in 123gr, 155gr, and 220gr flavors. This thing is going to be the HEAT like Bobby Deniro! Seriously, here are some links:

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2010/09/29/300-aac-blackout-new-caliber-new-mission/

http://300aacblackout.com/

What do you think? I'm downing a pitcher of this AAC/Remington Kool-aid right now! First thing Monday morning, I'm calling Mers at AAC to see about getting an upper and some ammo.

-- Evan
Do you really have to post the same thing in every forum? "...be the HEAT like Bobby Deniro" ??? I don't know what to say. :o

rsilvers
October 2, 2010, 12:41 AM
So truth be told, it honestly has not military application.

This exists because of the military application. Not just for short barrels, but we will have 20 inch rifles also.

68wj
October 2, 2010, 12:53 AM
This exists because of the military application. Not just for short barrels, but we will have 20 inch rifles also.
It seems a very efficient cartridge out of the short barrels (great SBR numbers). Is there any advantage to a 20"?

C-grunt
October 2, 2010, 12:58 AM
What are the ballistics for 16 and 20 inch rifles?

Like RainDownmyBlues, Im interested in performance at 300 plus yards. I was in Iraq in the more rural areas. We didnt have house to house fighting, it was farm to farm. 300 plus yard shots were not uncommon and were probably more the norm. But being a mech unit we had mostly M16A4s and only NCOs and above had M4s.

I actually left the service with a much higher regard for the 5.56 than I had going in.

RainDownmyBlues..... I was also a SDMR in 05 with the modified M16A4. That was such a sweet rifle.

rsilvers
October 2, 2010, 12:59 AM
Well sure - 20 inch is much higher velocity and much longer range than the short barrels. That is true even for - say - 357 Magnum when used in a lever action compared to a big revolver.

rsilvers
October 2, 2010, 01:04 AM
Here are 9 and 16 inch ballistics:

http://www.300aacblackout.com/resources/PDS%2021501-%20A300AACM4%20300%20AAC%20BLK%20123-gr%20MC-1.pdf

68wj
October 2, 2010, 01:10 AM
Well sure - 20 inch is much higher velocity and much longer range than the short barrels. That is true even for - say - 357 Magnum when used in a lever action compared to a big revolver.
Well, I guess I was asking if the advantage is enough to matter. When I was researching 6.8, I originally wanted a 20" since I have always been a fan of rifles over carbines and wanted all the accuracy/velocity I can get. The difference from 16" to 18" to 20" is nominal (~50fps). Looking at the data on AAC, the 6.8 starts to surpass the .300 Blk as the barrel length grows. I was just curious about if the 20" barrel would still give such a ballistic advantage as the Blk enjoys in SBR configuration.

benzy2
October 2, 2010, 01:13 AM
Meh, no interest. This seems like one of those things where if you hadn't already bought a setup in .300 Whisper you probably don't have interest in the round anyways. If you have already bought a .300 Whisper, well, why change to the same things with a different label? I don't personally see a law enforcement/military contract coming for these when 7.62x39 chambered rifles can be had on the AR platform. Sure they aren't the same mag/bolt, but is that really such an issue? For me, it's meaningless but if it's fun for you, go for it.

jester_s1
October 2, 2010, 01:18 AM
It makes sense as a short range thumper but then again the 6.8 SPC does that job and has more range. Without a big advancement in propellants, there isn't going to be a .30 caliber round for the AR15 that has enough velocity to be a general combat or hunting cartridge.

rsilvers
October 2, 2010, 01:19 AM
7.62x39 does not work in ARs, period.

300 Whisper was a wildcat - hand loading only - unless you wanted $45 a box Cor-Bon ammo. 300 AAC BLACKOUT will have affordable full power ammo - so you can hunt with 30 cal bullets in an AR - and also have 30 round mag capacity for other uses.

SharpsDressedMan
October 2, 2010, 01:20 AM
I have used the 300 Whisper and can say that for any military operations at night, or out to 150-200 yards by day, this cartridge in a short AR plaform, subsonic and suppressed, is hard to beat. Add a set of goggles, NVG compatible optic AND an IR laser, and the enemy will not know what hit them. I zeroed my optic at 100, and my IR at 50. These are practical zeros for CQB out to those ranges, and even 150 in the day at point blank aiming. Retained energy from the 220gr at 400 yards still exceeds MUZZLE energy for the .45ACP. It is a 350 yard capable round if you can manage the holdover for the subsonic heavy round, but might need a trajectory specific (subsonic) reticle, something no scope maker yet gives us. AAC, if you want to REALLY lead the pack, get Leupold or Burris to give us an affordable, durable, subsonic plotted scope with 1-3x magnification. I have had one scope altered with what I call "foot-dots" (dots placed 12" apart on the vertical stadia), and they make it possible to plot shots out to 500 yards and beyond with the Whispers.

rsilvers
October 2, 2010, 01:23 AM
Yes, we are doing the scope. It is in the PDF.

http://www.300aacblackout.com/resources/300-BLK.pdf

RainDownmyBlues
October 2, 2010, 06:53 AM
What are the ballistics for 16 and 20 inch rifles?

Like RainDownmyBlues, Im interested in performance at 300 plus yards. I was in Iraq in the more rural areas. We didnt have house to house fighting, it was farm to farm. 300 plus yard shots were not uncommon and were probably more the norm. But being a mech unit we had mostly M16A4s and only NCOs and above had M4s.

I actually left the service with a much higher regard for the 5.56 than I had going in.

RainDownmyBlues..... I was also a SDMR in 05 with the modified M16A4. That was such a sweet rifle.

I honestly hate to be a downer, but I have a very, very strong distaste for contractors. Probably seeing the $crap$, and we paved the way. Companies like mine always paved the way for the contractors. As I said, I still have a very saltry, distasteful rememberance in my mouth about contractors sweeping up after us, and claming everything we did as theirs.

RainDownmyBlues
October 2, 2010, 07:17 AM
Regardless I'll be a nice guy and ignore my agression on that fact.

The SDMR M16A4 I was issued was pretty much the longest reaching 5.56 rifle you could get over there. Did you deal with the same thing? I was 82nd division, but we were treated well on such things, but not well enough to get the m14. :P

We had the top NV goggles, but command thought we didn't ever need batteries.... The ACOG as decent on my SDMR, but I think with a "good" aimpoint, I may have been able to touch further. But after two monnths in the skelth, we were blind. No N/v, and that's when our units operated.

In that place though, as I said, we adopted Marine tactics two riflemen suppress, and rush. I would stack behind one of them and usually created enough disturbance to disperse them.

Where were you issued brother? Branch/company?

OnPointFirearms
October 2, 2010, 08:37 AM
I am R&D Director at AAC, and the project lead on this.

Everything 300 AAC BLACKOUT does, 300 Fireball, 300-221, and 300 Whisper were capable of doing. But there was no SAAMI standard - and there were too many loading manuals with data inappropriate for the AR. We created a standard, released it for anyone to use royalty free, and introduced it to SAAMI. We have a metric **** ton of affordable ammo coming - lower than 6.8 SPC prices.
We have a metric **** ton of affordable ammo coming - lower than 6.8 SPC prices.

This is what I'm talking about. Affordable and plentiful ammo from a major force in the industry. When was the last time you saw someone shooting Whisper at the range? Never. 6.5 or 6.8? Once in a blue moon. With the right backing, this could become as common as .40sw.

68wj
October 2, 2010, 09:08 AM
I honestly hate to be a downer, but I have a very, very strong distaste for contractors. Probably seeing the $crap$, and we paved the way. Companies like mine always paved the way for the contractors. As I said, I still have a very saltry, distasteful rememberance in my mouth about contractors sweeping up after us, and claming everything we did as theirs.
How did contractors come into this? He said mech unit, did you read "merc"?

OnPointFirearms - With the right backing, anything with performance and public demand can be popular. I know MANY shooters that want 6.8 or 6.5 and are only held back by ammo availability. Catch 22: Shooters are weary of acceptance due to supplier support, suppliers are weary due to reserved shooter acceptance. I don't know how the .300 is any different but only the market will decide.

highlander 5
October 2, 2010, 09:11 AM
I've wanted an AR upper in a larger caliber for a while but the 6.8 SPC ammo would be tough to find in my area and as much as the 300 Whisper/300 Fireball gets my interest the parent case 221 Fireball is a little scarce. I could make the brass from 223 but have to admit I'm getting lazy in my old age. If the uppers are reasonably priced and can be fitted with a muzzle break (no flash hiders in Ma) with factoery ammo I'd buy one.

Tirod
October 2, 2010, 10:00 AM
The case is obviously a necked out 5.56, especially the lack of taper. Shortening it allows a longer bullet with enough body to seat low on the ogive. That allows more powder room. it's always a tradeoff, you have to have enough length to get into the neck, without taking up any more space than necessary.

A .30 cal in a 5.56 is old. It was done by competitors at the first Soldier of Fortune shoot in Columbia, MO. At the time, it was shoved out the gate, as the hosts didn't want the AR in any caliber in the event. No, it's not the heat, it's just another round.

The major difficulty in making another AR round is the overall length of the loaded cartridge. Take a look at the two extremes, the 6.8 and 6.5G. It also can be necked up to much larger bullets, and that's been done, too.

Price, availability, etc is up in the air. Despite the naive assumptions of some, alternative calibers for the AR aren't $15 dollar a box fodder you'll find at the Mart or country gas station out hunting. That takes over 50 years of entrenched sales and the acceptance of the mainstream as a "good huntin' bullet." The AR has barely broken the ice for the general public as a mainstream hunting rifle, and the Jim Zumbo's in the crowd won't be jumping on that bandwagon ever.

Crow about the potential all you want, the travails of the 6.8 and 6.5G are what will be in wait for yet another caliber to choose from. If this offering has any kind of following, it won't be in large public sales, as the range and effectiveness don't seem to offer hunters the minimums needed.

It's another niche caliber in the niche market of tactical guns, not the One Caliber To Rule Them All.

jmorris
October 2, 2010, 10:27 AM
Well sure - 20 inch is much higher velocity and much longer range than the short barrels. That is true even for - say - 357 Magnum when used in a lever action compared to a big revolver. Here are 9 and 16 inch ballistics:

http://www.300aacblackout.com/resour...-gr%20MC-1.pdf



I wouldn't call less than 200 FPS "much higher velocity". The 357 magnum comparison doesn’t ring true either, the spread between revolver and a lever gun is 500 FPS+-.

It’s case volume, powder burn rate and pressure the dinky case volume gets full before you can add enough slow burning powder to make the bullet go much faster in the longer barrel.

greyling22
October 2, 2010, 11:19 AM
not to derail a thread but....

" We are an Army based on marksmanship. "

I may very well be wrong, but last stat I heard it took something like 1000 rounds to kill somebody in iraq etc. and I got the idea that was not including practice rounds. It doesn't sounds like we've come a long way form man's weight in lead to kill him in the civil war. and it sure doesn't sound like marksmanship.

(I'm not trying to come across snooty at all. I have the highest respect for our guys in the army and I've got a buddy over there right now. If I was there and somebody started shooting at me from cover I'd jump in a deep hole, fire blindly out the top and scream for air support and tanks. in a situation like that marksmanship wouldn't be very high on my list of priorities.)

But I'd be up for an AR chambered in something subsonic that would reliably cycle in a suppressed gun. especially with a gas checked lead bullet. And if it was a mainstream caliber I could find dies and range brass for. I don't know if this is it, but it's a step in the right direction I guess.

M&PVolk
October 2, 2010, 12:43 PM
Wouldn't the 6.5 Grendel address the concerns of the Afghan theater in terms of range from a standard AR platform? To me, it is the most intriguing of all the AR niche cartridges specifically because of its range.

I really, really wish this cartridge would get popular and affordable because I would buy one in a heartbeat. It's hard to justify though, when it is so much easier to go with an AR 10 in .308.

Ratdog68
October 2, 2010, 12:54 PM
About the only advantage I see is that it has the capability of some subsonic loads. That's fine if you're a silencer user. In my state, it's legal to own one, but you go to jail for using one. So, for me, this round has no use.

I have my .223 for cheap shooting, and/or varmint use.
I have my 6.8 SPC for medium game hunting (along with many other calibers).
I have my big bolt actions for elk and above.

Between my .223 in my AR platform, and my SKSs in 7.62 X 39, I have SHTF needs covered.

I just don't see the need for a .30 cal bullet limited by a .223 case alongside my existing calibers... let alone seeing it replace anything I already have. Sure, it's a little boutique caliber that fills a niche, but, I don't see it doing much more than that.

Ratdog68
October 2, 2010, 01:11 PM
7.62x39 does not work in ARs, period.

Just because you/yours (and/or those you hang with) can't make it work, that doesn't make your observations the final word.

MTMilitiaman
October 2, 2010, 01:45 PM
Just because you/yours (and/or those you hang with) can't make it work, that doesn't make your observations the final word.

Actually, it's been a well documented and pretty much universally accepted problem getting the taper of the 7.62x39 cartridge and the necessary curved magazines it requires to work in the AR. You better believe 7.62x39 uppers would be a lot more popular if they were accepted as being generally reliable, esp before the 6.8 craze.

Yes, we are doing the scope. It is in the PDF.

Any projections on when this will be available, who is making them, and what they (1-8 and 1.5-5.5) will cost? Also, what load(s) will they be calibrated for?

I for one do see some use for this cartridge. Sure you can rattle off a list of cartridges that do a lot of things better, but this thing seems to be pretty well rounded as an intermediate powered rifle cartridge. I can't imagine it's trajectory is excellent, but this is mitigated with a good BDC on a quality optic and some time at the range. And all things considered, I'll take my odds with a .30 cal 155 gr OTM round vs. a .223 cal 77 gr OTM round at any range. You can read charts and recite ft/lbs or fps or whatever all you want, sometimes there is just no substitute for sending twice the mass and nearly twice the frontal area.

I don't have a poodle shooter (pipsqueak little varmint cartridge in my mind and probably always will be) or a 6.8 SPC (too expensive...at that price I'll send x51 through my M1A). I have several 7.62x39s, but sometimes have want of something more than an SKS (mine's a Yugo) or AK (WASR). While I would prefer a .300 BLK caliber conversion for a Microtech AUG or RA XCR over an AR, if the cartridge really does become cheap and available, and really does do 90% or better of what any of these cartridges can do at any range, well, yes, I am interested.

Esp since I am dreaming on an AAC 762SD on my M1A already...if I could use the same suppressor on both of them [trails off, daydreaming]...

constructor
October 2, 2010, 03:35 PM
In the past there were issues with the 7.62x39 in a AR platform just like there have been feeding issues with every caliber in the AR15 platform, that's why we have HK and Magpul mags and followers for the 5.56 now.
Same with stronger buffer springs, extractor springs and better bolts.
CP has been working and improving their mags so many 7.62x39s feed better than the 5.56 AR did 5 years ago before the release of the better mags using magpul followers.
There are many videos of guys firing the 7.62x39 in ARs full auto with no problems. Everything changes some just don't keep up with the advancements in other calibers. The 300AAC might be a fine suppressed cartridge I just have no use for it, there are much better hunting, target, long range and combat options.
Here is a video of a 7.62x39 that seems to run fine faster than most would ever shoot one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MksLdjCBKWI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51rG8971DtY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeCuKTs6XO8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FHTJUJzC7U&feature=related

taliv
October 2, 2010, 03:55 PM
released it for anyone to use royalty free

that will be the key to adoption. glad to hear you guys are doing this. As I've said many, many times, I don't own any "whisper" stuff because it's proprietary.

time will tell if it's a good caliber or not, but it seems promising. seems like a lot of undeserved negativity in this thread

rsilvers, I assume in the wide range of bullets listed, you go from super- to sub-sonic. I'm curious what twist barrels you'll recommend that allows that range of bullets to shoot well.

constructor
October 2, 2010, 04:05 PM
Silvers,
Who is making firearms for this round and who is making ammo and when will the ammo hit the shelves?
I can move about as fast as anyone when it comes to producing wildcat ARs.
I could have rifles in 4-5 weeks.

HorseSoldier
October 2, 2010, 06:40 PM
As Ssgt I had to take charge of the battalion as lead officer, and then another three months getting the actual CO used to operations. I professed to my soldiers to become proficient in semi-auto because full auto was completely wasteful. Especially as desolate as we were. We couldn't even get batteries for our NV.

:rolleyes: Is that bonus level for Call of Duty 2?

LeonCarr
October 2, 2010, 06:47 PM
Yet another somebody re-inventing the wheel. J.D. Jones/SSK did this what, 15 years ago?

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

GA Limited GM
October 2, 2010, 06:59 PM
"... In my state, it's legal to own one, but you go to jail for using one. So, for me, this round has no use."

Huh? What does that mean? Elaborate please. :confused:

taliv
October 2, 2010, 07:09 PM
GA, in washington state, it is legal to own suppressors but not to shoot them. stupid. search for posts by member Ranb and click the links in his signature if you live in WA and are willing to call representatives.

(though from your name, I'm guessing you're in georgia)

Mags
October 2, 2010, 07:19 PM
This round looks better than the 6.8 from shorter barrels. If ammo is available for 15 bucks or less per 20 this round looks promising. I have been contemplating a 5.56 SBR for suppressed use and a 6.8 in an 18 inch upper for sometime but a 9 inch 300 blackout sounds like it will do both pretty well.

Ratdog68
October 2, 2010, 09:11 PM
"... In my state, it's legal to own one, but you go to jail for using one. So, for me, this round has no use."

Huh? What does that mean? Elaborate please. :confused:
Just as I wrote it. I can legally buy a Tax Stamp to purchase/own a silencer, but if I USE it within the borders of WA State, it IS a jailable offense (no exclusion for law enforcement either). The only option is to transport it to neighboring Oregon or Idaho to use it.

rsilvers
October 2, 2010, 09:54 PM
Constructor,

If you want to make uppers, call Pacific Tool and Gauge and buy a reamer and gauge set.

We expect another 100,000 rounds of ammo in November but most if not all is reserved for the military and companies that want to develop rifles. Hopefully soon after that we will have mass quantities of ammo for commercial sales. This is still early adopter time and a good time for rifle makers to get stuff developed for the Shot Show.

The amount of ammo coming is adequate (almost certainly more than 6.8 ammo sales by all companies combined).

JDMorris
October 2, 2010, 10:31 PM
this is stupid, i wish someone somewhere would explain all these people are doing is creating more dead calibers. maybe someone should try something groundbreaking. like .408 cheytac, or .338 lapua. :)
oh wait, someone already made those, ok stop making more new ones and make more 308 for me.

constructor
October 2, 2010, 11:50 PM
Silvers,
I think Dave at PTG called me not 15 minutes after it was released.
I'll kick it around but, want to see the ammo available first.
Be interesting to see what the big SWAT forces do with this.

highlander 5
October 3, 2010, 08:51 AM
J.D. Jones might have made the cartridge and chambering first,but have you priced his uppers? Yikes! Years ago I called about have a Ruger M77 MK II rebarreled to 300 Whiisper and was quoted a price of $1200 !!! I don't begrudge someone makeing a profit but that's a bit much for a simple rebarrel job. I would like to find out what the pric of an upper would be with a flat top and 20" barrel.

db_tanker
October 3, 2010, 09:25 AM
one question I haven't seen asked yet...


will this round chamber and fire safely in one already cut for a 300-221 Fireball or Whisper?

What about those who have a Contender single shot and just use your ammo to fireform into their chamber? Are the dimensions close enough to make it safe or did you size the brass to be non-compatible?

Tirod
October 3, 2010, 09:34 AM
The amount of ammo coming is adequate (almost certainly more than 6.8 ammo sales by all companies combined).

No doubt it's noticed I live in Missouri, so, I'll wait to see that. If it can be done, great. Economies of scale being what they are, I know there will be an uphill battle to produce it.

I'm not naive enough to expect $15 a box, and it's not reality in an age of creeping inflation and commodity demand on brass, etc.


Les Baer announced they were going to produce a large quantity of .264 LBC brass. I don't track that caliber, how's that coming along? As there is only so much production capacity to make ammo in the US, much less worldwide, it will be interesting to see what the source is.

rsilvers
October 3, 2010, 11:54 AM
We did not purposely make it incompatible with 300 Fireball, but we can't guarantee compatibility due to that being a wildcat.

I have a RUAG 300 Whisper (R) ammo drawing and their ammo is a fit for our chamber.

There is also the issue of gas port pressure and OAL. I posted loading data for ammo that is known reliable in feed and cycle. I highly recommend not using pre existing 300 Fireball load data for subsonic use as they mostly use OAL too long and powder too fast for military levels of reliability.

Bartholomew Roberts
October 3, 2010, 01:42 PM
My last tour I had a SDMR modified M16A4, slightly different ammunition but I was able to reach out much further than the M4.

Much further? Care to quantify that with some actual numbers and data?

constructor
October 3, 2010, 03:23 PM
The amount of ammo coming is adequate (almost certainly more than 6.8 ammo sales by all companies combined).

No doubt it's noticed I live in Missouri, so, I'll wait to see that. If it can be done, great. Economies of scale being what they are, I know there will be an uphill battle to produce it.

I'm not naive enough to expect $15 a box, and it's not reality in an age of creeping inflation and commodity demand on brass, etc.


Les Baer announced they were going to produce a large quantity of .264 LBC brass. I don't track that caliber, how's that coming along? As there is only so much production capacity to make ammo in the US, much less worldwide, it will be interesting to see what the source is.
I kind of doubt the inital offering of ammo will surpass that of available 6.8 choices.
Available factory ammo



6.8 SPC
BVAC--------115gr SMK
Corbon------110 TTSX
--------------115 SMK
--------------115 subsonic
DoubleTap-----95gr Barnes TTSX
---------------110 Vmax
---------------115 FMJ
---------------110TTSX
---------------110 OTM
Hornady-----110 Vmax
---------------110 OTM
-------------120 SST
Rem.---------115 FMJ
---------------115 HPBT
--------------115 corelokt
--------------115SMK
Sellier&Bellot-110 TTSX
-----------------110 Vmax
SSA------------85 TSX------------SSAs loads available in Commercial and Tactical velocities
----------------90 TNT
----------------95 frangable
----------------97 AP
----------------100 Nosler Accubond
----------------110 Nosler Accubond
----------------110 Sierra Pro hunter
----------------110 TTSX
----------------115 SMK

68wj
October 3, 2010, 03:35 PM
Rem.---------115 FMJ
---------------115 HPBT
--------------115 corelokt
--------------115SMK

Since it came up, and there is a knowledgable AAC/Rem rep present, with the large focus on production of AAC/Rem's new caliber, I would love to see Remington also look at their 6.8 Rem SPC offerings and press out some more too. They (you) can have a great influence on the success of both cartridges.

rsilvers
October 3, 2010, 03:40 PM
I meant in terms of quantity of rounds manufactured, not variety of rounds.

HorseSoldier
October 3, 2010, 03:43 PM
Much further? Care to quantify that with some actual numbers and data?

I'm interested to hear some more on this too from a BTDT sort of guy like Raindownmyblues . . .

rsilvers
October 3, 2010, 03:47 PM
The only way I could make that happen is to have AAC place an order for a new type of 6.8 ammo and then Rem would make it to our specs and we could distribute it. And that may happen but it would be more of a next year thing if we do it at all. But if we did do it, it would be full speed.

68wj
October 3, 2010, 04:34 PM
The only way I could make that happen is to have AAC place an order for a new type of 6.8 ammo and then Rem would make it to our specs and we could distribute it. And that may happen but it would be more of a next year thing if we do it at all. But if we did do it, it would be full speed.
Thank you for answering my question and I apologize for the thread drift.

S. Hill
October 3, 2010, 04:34 PM
The main advantage (as I see it) is with the heaviest bullets, suppressed, at sub-sonic velocities, at distances over 100 yds. You have a very specialized round for a very specialized application. The heavy VLD bullets maintain their energy WAAAAAY beyond what you might think.

If you are looking for a deer cartridge with super-sonic velocities, the 6.5 or 6.8 will probably have better performance than the light bullets in the .300.

Mr. Silver, I am also wondering about using the new Rem. ammo in the .300-221 chamber. (not so worried about the other way around) Is there a case capacity difference between the two?

Kernel
October 3, 2010, 05:11 PM
The .30 Rem AR looks to have about 20% more case capacity. The .300 ACC will always be a weak sister.

rsilvers
October 3, 2010, 07:07 PM
The 30 AR is low magazine capacity.

Zak Smith
October 3, 2010, 08:50 PM
I recently ran this data for another thread (on hunting with subsonic cartridges).

Here is the drop data for a 240gr SMK launched at 1100 fps (50 yard zero)
_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 50 100 150 200 250 300 350 400 | YARDS
240SMK 0.71* 1100 > -0.00 0.00 4.55 10.98 18.01 25.38 33.00 40.83 48.84 | drop (moa)

240SMK 0.71* 1100 > -2.70 -0.00 -4.76 -17.25 -37.73 -66.45 -103.67 -149.64 -204.60 | drop (inches)

240SMK 0.71* 1100 > 0.13 -0.02 -0.17 -0.33 -0.49 -0.66 -0.83 -1.01 -1.19 | drop per yard (inches)

240SMK 0.71* 1100 > 1100 1080 1061 1043 1027 1012 997 984 971 | velocity (fps)

Note that at 300 yards, it has as much drop, and drop rate, that a normal .308 does at 1000 yards. While it does "retain" velocity fairly well, ranging is critical. If you are off by 10 yards at 350 yards, you will miss by 10 inches.

constructor
October 3, 2010, 08:56 PM
Silvers,
So the big question, what twist rate are you recommending for the sub loads
optimum and min?:D forgive me if I missed it.

SharpsDressedMan
October 3, 2010, 09:50 PM
FWIW, my twist rate was 1-8" in a Douglas premium barrel, stabilized the 220's (they are more practical than the 240's due to price), and I got some sub-minute groups with Nosler 125BT's at high end, high velocity loadings, too. Seemed to work well with anything.

Tirod
October 3, 2010, 09:53 PM
Given the table posted, it would appear the correct application is that of a PDW round. Considering the SBR and suppressor connection, it becomes clearer.

Since it doesn't have the ballistics to justify it being a hunting cartridge, then appreciate it for what it does. I don't see the backers claiming it's a hunting round, it would be unfair to say it doesn't make the grade.

As a PDW caliber, whole different story. Let's ignore the OP's original direction and focus on what this is.

All said and done, the ballistics of a cartridge are what they are. It's what shooters think it can be used for that stirs up different opinions. That's when the interpretation of those figures becomes an issue. Like 6.5G being as good as .308 at 800m. :scrutiny:

This round is much more about what it can do at 80 meters, and that's where the application is becoming obvious.

MTMilitiaman
October 3, 2010, 10:59 PM
Any piston guns in the near future?

Zak Smith
October 3, 2010, 11:03 PM
Tirod,

That was only the subsonic rounds.

When loaded to full power, these .30-556 cartridges have ballistics more similar to 7.62x39, or .30-30.

rsilvers
October 3, 2010, 11:31 PM
AAC barrels are 1:8 twist for 9 and 16 inch barrels, and we are testing 1:12 for supersonic only 20 inch.

I have heard of people using 6.5 or 7 twist, but have not tried it.

I know that 1:9 twist will sometimes cause yaw with Sierra 220s at 100 yards, when shot at subsonic speeds - so I would not go slower than 1:8 if subsonic capability is important.

benzy2
October 4, 2010, 12:43 AM
So what exactly is the application here? I guess I don't see the point that much. If you load it hot in a 20", its similar to the 6.8 stuff out there. If you load heavy bullets with moderate loads (moderate enough to stay subsonic) you limit yourself in distance. For the slow stuff, why not a pistol caliber conversion in .45ACP? Ammo is much more available and carries similar punch. In the full power middle/light weight stuff why not go with either the 6.8 or 6.5 (depending on application)? I know I am looking at this from a negative point of view, but I'm having troubles seeing what the accomplishment of this round is other than a royalty free .300 Whisper (not that I'm against that). My question would be, why this round rather than a subsonic pistol caliber for the subsonic short barrel side and the 6.8 or 6.5 in the longer barreled version?

MTMilitiaman
October 4, 2010, 01:13 AM
For the slow stuff, why not a pistol caliber conversion in .45ACP? Ammo is much more available and carries similar punch.

The .45 ACP can't even come close to the ballistics of the subsonic load. Remember that even if the velocity and mass are similar at the muzzle, the .30 caliber 220 gr Matchking has a much higher BC than any .451 caliber pistol bullet and is going to maintain better performance for much longer ranges as a result.

The .45 ACP doesn't do much better for velocities from a carbine with any of the chrono results I've seen. About 1000 fps from a standard pressure 230 gr load in a 16 inch barrel appears to be about the norm. Available factory data for 230 gr +P starting out at around 950 fps from a service pistol barrel puts it at between 850 and 900 fps @ 100 yards. For comparison, even from the shorter 9 inch barrel, with a muzzle velocity of 1010 fps, my exterior ballistics software says the 220 gr SMK will still have 976 fps at 100 yards. In fact, this load still has more velocity at 500 yards than some standard pressure .45 ACP loads have at the muzzle when fired from a pistol. And remember, that is just using the stated 9 inch barrel velocity. With a BDC reticule or elevation knob, similar loads have been demonstrated both accurate and lethal out to 300+ yards. I wouldn't expect it to be the Hammer of Thor, and this cartridge still obviously isn't designed to specialize in long range application, but I don't doubt that it is capable of performance well beyond anything the .45 is capable of out to some surprising distances.

Zak Smith
October 4, 2010, 01:18 AM
Here's what the difference is between a 240gr SMK and a 300gr Sierra HP/FN .45-70 bullet

_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 50 100 150 200 250 300 350 400 | YARDS
240SMK 0.71* 1100 > -0.00 0.00 4.55 10.98 18.01 25.38 33.00 40.83 48.84 | drop (moa)
300 SHPFN 0.230 1100 > -0.00 0.00 5.04 12.28 20.41 29.17 38.46 48.25 58.52 | drop (moa)

240SMK 0.71* 1100 > -2.70 -0.00 -4.76 -17.25 -37.73 -66.45 -103.67 -149.64 -204.60 | drop (inches)
300 SHPFN 0.230 1100 > -2.70 -0.00 -5.28 -19.29 -42.75 -76.37 -120.84 -176.85 -245.12 | drop (inches)

240SMK 0.71* 1100 > 0.13 -0.02 -0.17 -0.33 -0.49 -0.66 -0.83 -1.01 -1.19 | drop per yard (inches)
300 SHPFN 0.230 1100 > 0.13 -0.02 -0.19 -0.37 -0.57 -0.78 -1.00 -1.24 -1.49 | drop per yard (inches)

240SMK 0.71* 1100 > 1100 1080 1061 1043 1027 1012 997 984 971 | velocity (fps)
300 SHPFN 0.230 1100 > 1100 1044 998 959 926 896 868 843 819 | velocity (fps)

240SMK 0.71* 1100 > 0.00 0.14 0.28 0.42 0.57 0.71 0.86 1.01 1.17 | time (sec)
300 SHPFN 0.230 1100 > 0.00 0.14 0.29 0.44 0.60 0.76 0.93 1.11 1.29 | time (sec)

MinnMooney
October 4, 2010, 01:54 AM
I'm certainly not "blown away" with what I've seen so far. I see hype and average ballistics.... nothing more. The 6.8 SPC has more umph and better downrange ballistics.
I think that anymore research is wasted and "the last word" in cartridges for the AR-15 platform has already been written.

68wj
October 4, 2010, 09:50 AM
I'm certainly not "blown away" with what I've seen so far. I see hype and average ballistics.... nothing more. The 6.8 SPC has more umph and better downrange ballistics.
I think that anymore research is wasted and "the last word" in cartridges for the AR-15 platform has already been written.



Pretty bold statement. While I also subscribe to the 6.8, I don't think we need to call it quits on the R&D side either. There will always be room for improvement. If a general purpose cartridge doesn't meet your needs and is too much of a compromise, why not utilize something that will (ie 300 blk and suppressed SBR).

Besides, the 6.8's initial performance was fairly unimpressive too (due to a number of miscalculations) and has only recently found its legs due to some incredible work by a relative few enthusiasts. People are just now starting to take notice and see the potential there.

highorder
October 4, 2010, 06:42 PM
Troll?

3 year member, with 1500+ posts?...

Thanks for contributing to the conversation. :rolleyes:

S. Hill
October 4, 2010, 06:53 PM
Hey Zak, since you have that fancy new computer and software.....

... can you calculate the point blank range for a 5" +- with the 240 gr. SMK bullet? Can you also calculate the relative energies @ 300 yds?

Looking at your chart, I guess you would be talking about pushing the .45 cal., 300 gr. bullet @ 1100 fps. out of something like the .450 Bushmaster? Obviously you wouldn't be able to do that out of a .45 ACP.

I'm surprised that the .45 cal. "pumpkin" holds it's velocity at the longer ranges. It doesn't fall off as fast as I would have thought.

Zak Smith
October 4, 2010, 07:18 PM
This is close

_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 50 100 150 200 250 300 350 400 | YARDS
240SMK 0.71* 1100 > -2.70 4.01 3.26 -5.22 -21.69 -46.41 -79.62 -121.58 -172.53 | drop (inches)
elevation maxima 4.62" at 70.12
300 SHPFN 0.230 1100 > -2.70 4.46 3.64 -5.91 -24.92 -54.07 -94.08 -145.63 -209.45 | drop (inches)
elevation maxima 5.13" at 70.26

240SMK 0.71* 1100 > 1100 1080 1061 1043 1027 1012 997 984 971 | velocity (fps)
300 SHPFN 0.230 1100 > 1100 1044 998 959 925 896 868 843 819 | velocity (fps)

Zero is set to 125 yards on both.


FYI, I chose that bullet to give the .45 load the benefit of the doubt per the BC value.

MTMilitiaman
October 4, 2010, 08:01 PM
I'm certainly not "blown away" with what I've seen so far. I see hype and average ballistics.... nothing more.

Funny, I said the same thing about the 6.8 when it came out.

The 6.8 SPC has more umph and better downrange ballistics. I think that anymore research is wasted and "the last word" in cartridges for the AR-15 platform has already been written.

Yep, but if we are considering "umph" and "downrange ballistics," it's not the 6.8, but rather the 6.5 Grendel.

I know what people expect. It's still an intermediate powered assault rifle round. As such, I don't think anyone has any right to expect much of it past 300 yards. Is it (.300 BLK) the end-all be-all assault rifle cartridge? Probably not. But it does have some interesting potential.

I would like to see it in a piston gun, and I would like more info on the optics...

S. Hill
October 4, 2010, 09:41 PM
Thanks Zak.

So, at less than 100 yds. you hold on the bottom of the melon, and at 150 yds. you should be holding at the very top. Dang, that's lots of drop!

If you believed J.D. Jones' sales information, you just hold dead on out to 250 yds. with his .300 Whisper. Hmmmm....

Ratdog68
October 4, 2010, 11:22 PM
Yep, but if we are considering "umph" and "downrange ballistics," it's not the 6.8, but rather the 6.5 Grendel.

More and more... comparisons are made with the 6.8 being the standard... and it's the grendel that ends up with the "me too" mentioning. Folks who are honest with themselves admit that the two are closer to one another than the grendel lovers will admit. The popularity of the 6.8 just definately shines (being the second most popular caliber in the AR platform). :cool: The 6.8 is a venerable hunting caliber. Deer, hogs, black bear... even a brown bear taken in Canada by a fella using a Ruger mini in 6.8 (and, that'd be with a SAAMI spec'd chamber, Ruger's 1:10 twist and Remington factory loads... talk about being handicapped). Of course... Constructor popped a bull elk with a 6.8 at (if my rememberer is working correctly tonight) about 370yds. I know of a feller on the 6.8forums BBS that settled in with a 6.8 and was consistently ringing steel at 800ish yds. (This last spring as I recall).

Grizzly with the 6.8 http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7621043/m/4721044231
Black Bear with 6.8 http://www.68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12574&highlight=Black+Bear
Constructor's elk with 6.8 http://www.68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2737&highlight=Bull
6.8 to 800yds http://www.68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13619&highlight=Badlands

Jaws
October 5, 2010, 05:28 PM
From the official website:


DESIGN OBJECTIVES
• Create a reliable compact 30-cal solution for the AR platform
• Utilize existing inventory magazines while retaining their full capacity
• Create the optimal platform for sound and flash suppressed fire
• Create compatible supersonic ammo that matches 7.62x39 ballistics
• Provide the ability to penetrate barriers with high-mass projectiles
• Provide all capabilities in a lightweight, durable, low recoiling package

REASONS 7.62x39 wAS NOT CONSIDERED
Extreme cartridge taper This is actually an advantage for a fighting gun.
• Reduces reliability of feeding in AR Magazines Actually the AR mags are the problem (straight at the top and curved half way down)
• Reduces Magazine capacity true
• Cartridge taper induces considerably higher bolt thrust-
exacerbating the AR Bolt's weaknesses Is the weak bolt that's the problem
• Requires a larger Bolt Face which reduces Bolt Locking Lug strength-
exacerbating the AR Bolt's weaknesses the weak bolt again
Limited projectile selection
• 0.311" diameter not a common option in most modern bullets


So this is an just an expensive 7.62x39mm cartridge built around the shortcomings of the AR15. :o

As someone posted earlier: sometimes you just need a bigger gun.:D

SharpsDressedMan
October 5, 2010, 06:05 PM
There is ALWAYS a bigger cartridge. If you look at this cartridge as the "silent, heavy, high-ballistic-coefficient, .30 battle cartridge that performs well at distances under 150 yards", then you'll see it for what it is. It isn't made to REPLACE anything. It is designed for possibly the widest variety of CQB applications, works in existing combat weapons, and does MOST of the things that a soldier asks of his rifle at those ranges. It can and WILL perform at longer ranges (with proper optics), and can also use supersonic loadings that rival comparable assualt rifles. There is NEVER going to be one cartridge, one gun, that does everything. 5.56, 5.45, 7.62x39, .300AAC/Whisper, 7.62x51........choose your platform and cartridge for what suits you.

dirtyjim
October 5, 2010, 11:44 PM
ptg already has the reamers & gauges if you decide to build your own

Armed012002
October 6, 2010, 05:42 AM
A .30 caliber cartridge for an AR-15 carbine has been a want of mine for a long time.

My reason is one of logistics.

I currently buy .224 bullets for my AR-15 and .308 bullets for my long range rifle. Buying only .308 bullets (say 168 grain bullets) simplifies reloading components and increases my flexibility.

With my carbine and long range rifle sharing reloading components, I can load cartridges for what I need now, rather than planning in advance. In other words, if I buy 2,000 .224 bullets for my AR-15, I can't use some of those bullets for my long range rifle. I might not need that many bullets for my carbine and run out of bullets for my long range rifle. This is something that's difficult to plan for.

A .308 Winchester AR-10 is an option, but trying to squeeze that cartridge into a carbine the size of the M4 is not practical. I want to keep the ergonomics and weight of the AR-15 unchanged.

I'm interested.

Armed012002
October 6, 2010, 05:48 AM
I'm not very interested in replacing my Magpul Pmags and USGI magazines with new magazines for a new cartridge.

Being able to use existing AR-15 30 round magazines for this new cartridge is impressive.

I hope the 300 AAC Blackout takes off.

Tirod
October 6, 2010, 11:24 AM
The AR bolt isn't weak, it works just fine with the caliber it was designed for. What's weak is attempting to stuff in a larger diameter case. 7.62x39 and other cartridges aren't meant for the AR, and the straight mag well is the proof. They have to use jacked up magazines with extra engineering to even feed reliably. The original gun designed around them had a a cut away mag well to accept a properly designed curved mag that matched the cartridges taper. Even the AR wasn't meant for 30 round mags, we just get away with it.

It's no wonder the proponents of the Russian - cased calibers offer superbolts for the AR to beef it up - the case diameter is excessive for the bolt face when machined in the standard material. A stronger alloy is required.

What the .300 creators did was live with the bolt face and straight mag well rather than force the wrong cartridge into it. A .30 caliber 5.56 case matches what's already there, rather than makes things worse. If it feeds from the issue magazine, even better.

What should be getting scrutiny is whether you want 7.62x39 or .30-30 ballistics. .30 caliber intermediate cartridges have more bullet drop than smaller faster ones. The real focus of this caliber is it's power and range compared to other alternatives.

None of the calibers mentioned are inherently bad or lack moral fiber. They were specifically designed with a unique bias in their performance. How they fit in the AR action can be assessed with an eye to how much compromise is accepted: the 5.56 still needs a curved mag well, the .300 AAC adds the demand for a new barrel, the 6.8 requires a barrel, bolt, and different mags, the 6.5G needs a barrel, superbolt, and has to use jacked up mags, the 7.62x39 at least has cheap ammo to offer with all the other problems.

The problem here is that too many focus on the ammo and not on the overall result. Russian cased ammo in the AR is not an optimum combination, more like a range shooters pet experiment that came out tolerable for their purposes. It's like the offspring of a dachshund and German Shepherd. Only it's mother will love it.

In that regard, the .300 AAC is far ahead in offering the performance without making things worse. What might be asked is whether something else already available is even better.

In the coming age of multi caliber AR's, it might be moot.

Zak Smith
October 6, 2010, 11:59 AM
Tirod, good post.

I was one of the first civilian shooters of 6.8 SPC, back in 2004. In 2008, I built up a 10" .300 Fireball (Whisper) SBR based on a Noveske barrel. I view both as special purpose AR-15 cartridges. In other words, if I have a specific purpose where the .300 Fireball is very well suited - the exact right tool for the job, I'll use it. For the vast majority of training, competition, and fighting applications, the overall package of good 5.56 ammo is the best choice.

I grew up hunting white-tail deer in Wisconsin; on our land, the average shot distance was about 45 yards due to terrain and growth. In fact the last two deer I shot (with a 7x57 and a 6.8 SPC), were shot at distances of about 6 and about 40 yards, respectively.

The .300 Fireball/Whisper/AAC-B is compelling because of two main reasons:

1. full-power ammunition shooting 125 or 150gr bullets can achieve pretty good velocities from even very short (e.g. 10") barrels, IE, around 2000 fps plus or minus. With a point-blank range of about 175 yards - more or less similar to a .30-30. This is an ideal match to the hunting scenario I wrote about before.

2. really heavy subsonic loads pack a big punch, although they do have a short effective point-blank range (about 120 yards)

My .300 Fireball upper sits in the safe most of the time, but when it's the right tool, it is the right tool. I would be quite pleased if .300 AAC-B ammunition will fire safely from my existing .300 FB barrel.

EdLaver
October 6, 2010, 02:02 PM
I just read this entire thread, cartridge could serve some use in a CQB role. For me though, like someone else stated, sometimes you just need a bigger all around caliber. AR10 and the .308 for everything out to 600+ yards for me. I wonder just how many different caliber uppers there are now for the AR? Like 15? 20? 5.56 and .308 are all that is needed IMO.

rsilvers
October 7, 2010, 06:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbYLyfFf9u8

Tirod
October 8, 2010, 09:37 AM
5.56 and .308 are all that's needed? I won't take that too far, but those two require two different actions. 5.56 is an ok round, but it lacks enough punch to reliably knock down larger game. .308 does that well, but at the cost of twice the recoil and 2 1/2 pounds more weight in the package.

But, use a 6.8SPC in the lighter AR15, which is done so much it's the #1 alternate caliber, and you have a 7 1/2# deer rifle that's easy to carry, uses a 16" barrel and gets the job done at ranges most hunters actually shoot. Those are all the reasons for the lever .30-30, too, and why it's the No.1 deer rifle in America for the last 100 years.

The AAC is applying the .30 to the 5.56 and enjoying many of the same benefits in the AR. Since I've already found the .308 and .30-06 to be more trouble to carry around than they are worth, I'm moving to the AR in intermediate calibers. It makes the combination more effective in a long days hunt.

Zanad
October 8, 2010, 02:55 PM
you said cheap ammo, I have to ask,


how cheap?

will it be about what boxer-brass 7.62x39 is for price or will it be more?

If ammo is cheaper than .308, this may be a about what I'm looking for.

rsilvers
October 8, 2010, 03:00 PM
We cannot announce pricing for about 3-4 weeks.

rsilvers
October 29, 2010, 07:53 PM
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/4867/forster300aacsmall.jpg

Forster Products 300 AAC BLACKOUT reloading dies.

Full Length Sizing Die only, 300 BLK, Part # 005545
Standard Seating Die only, 300 BLK, Part #006205
Ultra Micrometer Seating Die only, 300 BLK, Part #U00099

Set of Full Length Sizing Die and Standard Seating Die, 300 BLK, Part #004453
Set of Full Length Sizing Die and Ultra Micrometer Seating Die, 300 BLK, Part #U04453


I resized Remington 300 AAC BLACKOUT cases with each of the following dies, and then put a metric pin gauge in each, to see the largest pin that would fit. The goal being to see which dies resized the cases to the optimal inside diameter for ideal bullet pull without over-working the brass.

Forster had the benefit of having both the factory drawings and factory fired and unfired 300 AAC BLACKOUT brass - and so they knew the neck-wall thickness.

Results:

Forster 300 AAC BLACKOUT die: 7.76mm (0.3055 inches inside diameter)

Reading 30-221 die: 7.74mm (0.3047 inches inside diameter)

Hornady 300 Whisper(R) die: 7.58mm (0.2984 inches inside diameter)

GunTech
October 29, 2010, 08:37 PM
Been done before.

An what does Remington backing mean anyway. Remington was backing 6.8 and seems to have back away. 6.8 does have a following, and so does 6.5 grendel, so this one might last if there factory ammo and guns for it.

One of the arguments in the article cited is less case taper than 7.62x39 - as though this were a good thing. Case taper has been one of the arguments for the reliability of M43.

As noted, there only so much you can do within the AR platform. You can trade bullet weight for velocity and that's about it. Long range performance is likely to be worse than 6.8, which short range performance will likely be a tad better.

Just another trade off.

rsilvers
October 29, 2010, 09:10 PM
I agree that short range/short barrel performance is at best a 'tad' better than 6.8, BUT....

300 AAC BLACKOUT works with normal magazines.

It has a full 30 round capacity in a normal magazine.

It works with a normal bolt.

Only the barrel changes.

300 AAC BLACKOUT will have lower cost ammo than 6.8.

Case taper for 7.62x39 is only bad thing on ARs - due to it not working in the mag well, and due to increased bolt thrust breaking AR bolts. The AK has a much beefier bolt and a curved mag.

Remington backing means millions of rounds of affordable ammo is on the way.

InkedIan
October 30, 2010, 09:11 PM
I think most people are missing the major point of this round. The 300 whisper or blkout is meant to shoot a really heavy high BC round really f'ing quietly. The Whisper/Blkout is cool because it uses less powder than the 308win and 7.62x39 to shoot the 240-220 bullet around 1100 fps which means it's going to be quieter when used with a suppressor. Thats it pretty much it. If you don't care about being a little extra quiet then it's probably not cartridge for you.

Zak Smith
October 30, 2010, 09:27 PM
. The Whisper/Blkout is cool because it uses less powder than the 308win and 7.62x39 to shoot the 240-220 bullet around 1100 fps which means it's going to be quieter when used with a suppressor
Actually it's more because it will cycle an AR-15/M4.

rsilvers
October 30, 2010, 09:44 PM
I think most people are missing the major point of this round. The 300 whisper or blkout is meant to shoot a really heavy high BC round really f'ing quietly. The Whisper/Blkout is cool because it uses less powder than the 308win and 7.62x39 to shoot the 240-220 bullet around 1100 fps which means it's going to be quieter when used with a suppressor. Thats it pretty much it. If you don't care about being a little extra quiet then it's probably not cartridge for you.

300 AAC BLACKOUT has 7.62x39 ballistics. I don't see people saying the only purpose of a 7.62x39 is to shoot quietly with a suppressor! There is more muzzle energy than 5.56mm and some people just don't like 22 cal. Also, it is legal to hunt with in more states than a .223.

So 300 AAC BLACKOUT is a 30 cal solution for the AR15 which retains the full 30 round magazine capacity and uses a standard bolt.

SharpsDressedMan
October 30, 2010, 10:01 PM
It's not going to replace the .308...it wasn't intended to. It's not going to replace the 7.62x39, as way too many people love their AK's. It isn't going to replace the .223, but it does give AR owners options. As stated, it does kick butt, and can do it more quietly than all the others. I like it.

rsilvers
October 30, 2010, 10:16 PM
I think it will replace the MP5 for some users.

I think it will replace the MP7 for some users.

I think it will replace the 5.56mm AR for some users.

And it will be good for home defense and hunting with an AR.

If it can make major, then it will be good for 3-gun competitors. I am working on this.

HorseSoldier
October 31, 2010, 12:40 AM
I think it will replace the MP7 for some users.

So if, say, 50% of MP7 users in the country switch to 30 AAC Blackout, that means about five, maybe six units sold? ;)

Zanad
October 31, 2010, 01:06 AM
should one have any problems going from shooting relatively light bullets to shooting the heaviest of the stuff? take barrel twist for example, do we have to have different barrels for what weight we want to shoot? what about buffer springs?

rsilvers
October 31, 2010, 01:28 AM
The twist and buffer were selected to work with the full range of Remington ammo from 110 to 220 grain.

InkedIan
October 31, 2010, 04:26 AM
Actually it's more because it will cycle an AR-15/M4.
Actually it's more because it will cycle an AR-15/M4.


What's more???

300 AAC BLACKOUT has 7.62x39 ballistics. I don't see people saying the only purpose of a 7.62x39 is to shoot quietly with a suppressor! There is more muzzle energy than 5.56mm and some people just don't like 22 cal. Also, it is legal to hunt with in more states than a .223.

So 300 AAC BLACKOUT is a 30 cal solution for the AR15 which retains the full 30 round magazine capacity and uses a standard bolt.

But I am saying the 300 whisper/whatever you call it was designed for subsonic use. Yes, I know it can go supersonic with lighter rounds but I wouldn't want to have to qualify at the 500 yard line or make a 500 yard combat shot with a 155gr bullet that is going that slow, dropping that much, and that will move that much in the wind. I'm speaking from experience when I say that. I own a 300 whisper and did the whole fallujah, iraq thing. I love my 300 whisper and it has a purpose but a main combat round isn't it.

Zak Smith
October 31, 2010, 10:20 AM
It's more compelling than .308 and 7.62 not because it's quieter with either full power or subsonic loads, but because it works in an AR-15 specifically subsonic.

rsilvers
October 31, 2010, 10:21 AM
The standard round for 300 AAC BLACKOUT is 123 grain and duplicates the 7.62x39 ballistics - which is by far the most successful assault rifle cartride of all time. And outside of combat, for LE and self defense, it has more energy than 5.56mm at the most common shooting ranges.

SharpsDressedMan
October 31, 2010, 02:42 PM
I can say this: I have owned a .300 Whisper/ .30-.221 for about 10 years now. It has a 1-8" twist, Douglas premium barrel, and given the limitations of loading subsonics (one is at pistol level loads with pistol powders), accuracy has been fantastic. Consistent accuracy is more difficult with subsonic loadings, but both subsonic and hypersonic loads give great accuracy. My 125gr Nolster Ballistic Tip loadings have easily been subminute, so I can verify that the 1-8 twist works pretty well with the range of bullet weights normally encountered. The quality of the loading, and the bullet, are the biggest factors...the gun will do its job.

rsilvers
October 31, 2010, 02:59 PM
Our 16 inch Model-7 300 AAC BLACKOUT bolt guns with ultralight barrels are averaging 0.8 MOA based on 50 round averages (10 five shot groups at 100 yards with no flyers discarded).

R.W.Dale
October 31, 2010, 03:21 PM
The 300aac keeps getting quoted as having the same ballistics as 7.62x39mm.

I've not found aac's numbers in this thread using 125 and 150 g bullets in 20" and 16" barrels.

So what are the aac's numbers?

rsilvers
October 31, 2010, 03:27 PM
www.300aacblackout.com. I think it says 2315 fps for 123 grain from a 16 inch barrel. I should be able to give 20 inch data in 4 weeks.

rsilvers
October 31, 2010, 10:13 PM
300 Whisper(R), 110 V-MAX.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa3V5tZXT7U&NR=1

TexasPatriot.308
October 31, 2010, 11:30 PM
I am sure ammo will be everwhere, when the SHTF, I hope you got lots of this ammo on hand, ammo that so many other rounds will plentiful cause thaey are acommon round, you will have a nice looking rifle with no ammo, get ready to use it as a club or bayonet up...u spread yourself thin and it will come back haunt u and kick u in the a--. enjoy ur new rounnd...

rsilvers
October 31, 2010, 11:36 PM
You just reminded me of an Austin Powers movie ad.

"If you can only see one movie this summer, see Star Wars—but if you can see two, see Austin Powers!"

Yes, everyone needs a 5.56mm AR.

Pony Express
November 1, 2010, 12:34 AM
something groundbreaking. like .408 cheytac

the .408 cheytac is no more groundbreaking than this cartridge. there's nothing a .408 will do that a .50BMG (match loadings of course) can't do.

you will have a nice looking rifle with no ammo, get ready to use it as a club or bayonet up
Except the only difference between an AR chambered for .223/5.56 and this is the barrel...which can be had for less than $200, or most users will probably already own.


for the record, I could get on-board with this, with one condition:
It must be substantially cheaper than 6.8 (preferably below $.50/round for GOOD stuff-not steel cased russian mystery-metal cartridges)

GunTech
November 1, 2010, 01:23 AM
The standard round for 300 AAC BLACKOUT is 123 grain and duplicates the 7.62x39 ballistics - which is by far the most successful assault rifle cartride of all time. And outside of combat, for LE and self defense, it has more energy than 5.56mm at the most common shooting ranges.

What about over-penetration? One of the reason the 5.56 has supplanted the 9mm carbine for LE use is that the latter (9mm) has more penetration in urban environments typical of LE operations. The same would be true of HD use. I don't want a round flying through several wall and killing the neighbor down the block.

And as far as military actions, we know from experience that ball 7.62x39 is actually not so lethal compared with 5.56x45 ball. The former's 'success' was certainly helped by the reliability of the rifle that fired it, as well as the fact the now defunct Soviet Union gave away train car loads of rifles and ammunition.

I can see a role for this cartridge, but I don't think it is the panacea some do. Yes, it may have Remington's backing, but so did rounds like the 260. The 6.8 is now a legitimate cartridge, but compared to the 5.56, it is a niche round.

As long as we are limited to the mag length of the M16, and the same bolt thrust/working pressure, we are only trading weight and velocity.

I've killed deer with 5.56 and 6.8 and frankly, I couldn't see any difference. Put the shot in the vital area, and it goes down.

The principle concern I have is that Remington will support this for a short time, and if it doesn't sell enough, it will go to the back burner. Then you have a limited source of commercial loadings, and you'll have to handload to get any decent bullet selections.

Something like the 6.5 grendel.

BTW, what are the exact differences between this round that the 30 Remington AR? Another new AR round that was supposed to have the backing of Remington.

Zak Smith
November 1, 2010, 01:41 AM
BTW, what are the exact differences between this round that the 30 Remington AR? Another new AR round that was supposed to have the backing of Remington.
A cursory look at both cartridges yields obvious answers.

GunTech
November 1, 2010, 09:01 AM
I get the dimensional and performance differences, but rsilver has suggested on another forum that this cartridge is not a replacement for the 30 Remington AR. So Remington is going to be backing two competing 30 caliber cartridges for the AR-15 platform?

I've no doubt that some will adopt the new round, but does anyone think this will become anything more than a niche round. Is there going to be commercial ammo available at the local gun shop?

Essentially, this seems like a round that duplicates the performance of the 7.62x39 in a proprietary case but is likely to be several times more expensive. It doesn't require a new bolt or special magazines, but these are one time costs, while ammunition is an ongoing expense.

As a suppressed round, it is similar to 300 whisper but is non-proprietary. This is useful for those who shoot suppressed ARs, but that a pretty small percentage of AR shooters. I can see the appeal for a suppressor manufacturer.

The round has certainly go a lot of buzz right now. I'll be curious to see where it is a year from now. Remington certainly has a history with helping to bring out new rounds, then ignoring them.

R.W.Dale
November 1, 2010, 09:08 AM
I get the dimensional and performance differences, but rsilver has suggested on another forum that this cartridge is not a replacement for the 30 Remington AR. So Remington is going to be backing two competing 30 caliber cartridges for the AR-15 platform?

Given the backing Remington has put into the .30rar and assuming slightly less effort put into this third party round this new chambering cant possibly fail......wait...I mean can't possibly NOT fail.

Can you say .41AE?

rsilvers
November 1, 2010, 11:41 AM
AAC and Remington are working together - that is part of what is important. The full power loads won't just be in non expanding bullets like Russian military ammo, but also in hunting and LE ammo. Here are the loads being developed:

123 MC
220 subsonic
LE Expanding
Military Barrier Blind Optimal Penetration
Proof
Dummy

longdayjake
November 1, 2010, 11:41 AM
Hasn't it already been decided that the AR/m16 does fine at close range with .223? Seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

rsilvers
November 1, 2010, 11:45 AM
Can you say .41AE?

.41 AE was good but made no sense once 40 S&W came out.
Likewise, .222 was very good but made no sense once .223 came out.

So I don't think the analogy is correct unless you feel 300 AAC BLACKOUT will make no sense once XXX comes out.

A lot of it will have to do with price, and the price will be lower than 6.8 SPC.

rsilvers
November 1, 2010, 11:47 AM
Hasn't it already been decided that the AR/m16 does fine at close range with .223? Seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

.223 is good. 9mm is good for handguns also, but some people want alternatives. Some don't.

GunTech
November 1, 2010, 01:05 PM
rsilver, while I appreciate the effort you guys are making in bringing a new round for the AR to market, i don;t think having Remington's support or backing means much. As noted, they are also bringing the 30 Remington AR to market.

The 30 Remington is, I gather, meant to appeal to shooters who want to hunt with the AR, without going to an AR-10 sized platform. In that role, the 30 Remington AR is superior to the 300 AAC Blackout.

Another role for the 300 AAC is as a cheaper alternative to the 6.8. Since Remington was a big supporter of the 6.8, and still manufactures ammunition, I don't see why we should expect 300 AAC ammo to be significantly cheaper. Unless Remington plans on completely abandoning 6.8.

As an alternative to 7.62x39, I don;t see how one can compete on the basis of cost - which seems to be one of the major reasons for having a 7.62x39 upper in the first place. Cost of ammo seems to be a big factor in the rising popularity of 5.45x39 ARs.

So really we are left with the 300 AAC as a non-proprietary 300 whisper - a round that has fairly specialized applications.

I may be missing something here, but as someone who was an early adopter of both 6.8 and 6.5 grendel, I find it hard to buy into the hyper of yet another AR round which is at best an incremental improvement over the existing option.

rsilvers
November 1, 2010, 01:18 PM
I am project lead on 300 AAC BLACKOUT. We have Remington's support, and you will know ammo prices this month.

68wj
November 1, 2010, 02:03 PM
I am project lead on 300 AAC BLACKOUT. We have Remington's support, and you will know ammo prices this month.
Sorry, but I can only assume they are introductory prices. Granted, 5.56 brass and 7.62 bullets are readily available and relatively cheap, but putting them together is a whole 'nuther animal. How many other rounds has Remington "backed" only to back off once they didn't take off? 6.8 Rem SPC and .30 RAR come to mind specifically for the AR platform. Neither has been abandoned but both are growing in their capabilities only due to independent efforts.

Not saying that I won't be looking at the 300 BLK in a few years, but forgive my skepticism now when I hear praise that it is being backed by Remington and will be cheaper than 6.8.

rsilvers
November 1, 2010, 02:10 PM
I take responsibility for decisions that get made by AAC for 300 AAC BLACKOUT. I can only tell you what our plans are for this cartridge, not 30 AR or 6.8 SPC.

68wj
November 1, 2010, 02:18 PM
i take responsibility for decisions that get made by aac for 300 aac blackout. I can only tell you what our plans are for this cartridge, not 30 ar or 6.8 spc.
ten-fowar ;)

R.W.Dale
November 1, 2010, 02:21 PM
.41 AE was good but made no sense once 40 S&W came out.
Likewise, .222 was very good but made no sense once .223 came out.

So I don't think the analogy is correct unless you feel 300 AAC BLACKOUT will make no sense once XXX comes out.

A lot of it will have to do with price, and the price will be lower than 6.8 SPC.

As will performance! which is key to remember as today the SPC's bread and butter is hunters not operators.

The problem with this analogy is the 300AAC's 40S&W and .223 is already out and has been for over half a century. What you've come up with is a .30TC for the ar15 platform

There simply isn't THAT many folks upset with 7.62x39's performance in the AR platform and there sure isn't that much of a suppressed subsonic market, frankly I don't know of anyone who has a suppressor who Doesn't reload anyway. I doubt your ammo costs are going to be competitive with steel cased fodder from the exSoviet union either.

Yes this cartridge uses a standard bolt, mags and a common case. But you know what? This makes it really easy to reload for so folks don't have to buy ammo from you.

I really and truly wish you the best of luck with this as more choice is great!! Heck I shoot a SPC 30 caliber wildcat in my AR, all I'm saying is that you might not want to quit your day job at this point.

rsilvers
November 1, 2010, 02:33 PM
Something like 15% of the shooting public reloads.

I went down the 7.62x39 path a few times. I have a Colt rifle. Jammed too much due to the case taper in the mags. And a few years ago, I wanted to build a suppressed system. I said to myself "Self: Why do 300 Whisper(R) when I can just use 7.62x39 and shoot cheap ammo supersonic and handload subsonic ammo?"

I build a 10 inch rifle, full auto, and suppressed.

My bolts lasted just a few hundred rounds each. I tried every magazine someone said they got to work, and did not have much luck.

I then bought a Special Weapons lower which could take real AK mags. I was sure that was the answer to making it feed, even though it was dedicated and not really ideal.... Well, not so much due to the hassle. It required that you mill the bottom of the bolt carrier to clear the magazine feed lips. So I did that modification. It did work with the magazines, but there was still the bolt breaking issue.

I tried, and gave up. 7.62x39 is just not compatible with ARs.

No, the ammo won't be priced like steel cased imported ammo. It will be brass-cased ammo prices.

R.W.Dale
November 1, 2010, 02:38 PM
Something like 15% of the shooting public reloads.

But what YOU gotta figure out is what percent of SBR/supressor shooters reload. I'll guarantee that your market isn't 85% OF THE SHOOTING PUBLIC


I know you guys get on these forums and go to your meets and in the process it APPEARS as though there are a great number of similar minded shooters out there. But in reality you're an infinitesimally small clique among the much larger shooting community.

You must remember that! You will NEVER survive relying on enthusiasts.


If you want to WIN you don't need to worry about creating another 300fireball/wisper/300-221/7.62x40mm/300aac. You need figure out how to bottle 308 performance into the AR15


My 7.62x39 ar ran fine, but unlike your taken to the absolute limit machine mine was a nice normal 20" A2 being fed from 10rd mags.

InkedIan
November 1, 2010, 11:16 PM
rsilvers, is there an ETA on the scope?

InkedIan
November 10, 2010, 07:05 PM
Same question. You still alive Robert?

rsilvers
November 10, 2010, 07:10 PM
Probably have cams by the Shot Show that work on Leupold with 1/2 MOA elevation.

Zanad
November 22, 2010, 07:49 PM
any updates rsilvers?

rsilvers
November 24, 2010, 11:19 PM
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=128&t=64797

rsilvers
December 4, 2010, 02:17 PM
Subsonic ammo available now.

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7901/img2093small.jpg
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/1446/img2094small.jpg

Jeremy Powell
Bulls-Eye Indoor Range & Gun Shop
221 W Crogan Street
Lawrenceville, GA 30046
Phone: (770) 963-6556
Fax: (770) 963-8922
www.bullseyeindoorrange.com

E-Mail: bullseye_doc@hotmail.com

rsilvers
December 23, 2010, 12:11 AM
http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/8858/img2170small.jpg

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/1940/img2175q.jpg

twofourthree73
December 23, 2010, 01:25 AM
I am project lead on 300 AAC BLACKOUT. We have Remington's support, and you will know ammo prices this month.

Any word on prices?

Pete D.
December 23, 2010, 07:11 AM
I know that I'm fighting a losing battle but
Caliber = .308
Cartridge = .300 AAC BLK

Caliber and cartridge are not the same. There are LOTS of .30 caliber cartridges, aren't there? It's not the caliber that is new.

Pete

rsilvers
December 23, 2010, 09:42 AM
Price is $12.99 MSRP per box. Shipping today.

Fredo0621
December 23, 2010, 10:22 AM
How good will this be with my AAC 7.62Sd?????

rsilvers
December 23, 2010, 11:14 AM
308 cans work well.

336A
December 25, 2010, 03:10 PM
Ok I'm obviously a late comer on this. From all that I've read I'm with others here this cartridge is a solution to a non-existing problem. The only military application that this cartridge will ever have will be in suppresed arms which is highly limited. The only soldiers that will have a need for this will be those that fall under SOCOM that is it. I feel fully qualified in stating that as I am a current active duty soldier with multiple deployments under my belt and over 10 years in service. We have never at any time used supressed weapons or were we issued such.

Since Rem is backing this I went to their website and got the BC value for the 123gr Mc bullet (.266). I used the BC rating for the 123gr bullet as loaded in the .30 AR as I'm sure they will load the same in the .300 Black Out. I then ran the numbers through the a ballistics calculator. I used this bullet weight because if this cartridge was going to have any military application outside of suppresed arms this would be the most logical choice. I used the velocity right off of the web site (Black outs') and wanted to see how the trajectory would trace for the standard BSZ of 300 yards. Here are the results

Range (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 2315 2162 2014 1739 1493 1287 1131
Energy (ft.-lb.) 1464 1276 1108 826 609 452 349
Trajectory (300 yd. zero) -1.5 4.5 8.6 10.1 0.0 -25.8 -72.9
Wind Drift (inches) 0.0 0.4 1.6 7.1 17.0 32.4 53.5
Come Up in MOA -1.5 -8.6 -8.2 -4.8 0.0 6.2 13.9
Wind Drift (moa) 0.00 0.75 1.57 3.37 5.43 7.74 10.22

Look at the trajectory of this ballistic dud it is +8.6" @ 100yd and still +10" @ 200 yd for our standard 300 yards BSZ:barf: Take note of the wind drift too. IMHO either the 6.8 SPC or the 6.5 Grendel would make a much better military round overall. Both the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel will have a substantially flatter trajectory and IMHO greater terminal performance on target. They also have the added benefit of being a more practical hunting cartridge for medium sized large game as well.

As far as cost of ammo its to early to know for sure but so far it's not looking to promising, http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=1&tabId=3&categoryId=21162&categoryString=653***690***

Who knows maybe the lighter 123gr will be cheaper but I'm not holding my breath.

rsilvers
December 25, 2010, 05:59 PM
Ok I'm obviously a late comer on this. From all that I've read I'm with others here this cartridge is a solution to a non-existing problem.

The problem is that 5.56mm does not work well in short barrels and 7.62x39 does not work well in ARs.

The only military application that this cartridge will ever have will be in suppresed arms which is highly limited.

A good military application is CQB and PDWs. As for suppressors - before the 1990s, the use of body armor was highly limited. Things are changing.

The only soldiers that will have a need for this will be those that fall under SOCOM that is it.

I think SOCOM is important.

Since Rem is backing this I went to their website and got the BC value for the 123gr Mc bullet (.266).

Same bullet, but the 30 AR is a 24 inch barrel. With 300 AAC BLACKOUT from a 16 inch barrel, the BC is 0.251.

Both the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel will have a substantially flatter trajectory and IMHO greater terminal performance on target. They also have the added benefit of being a more practical hunting cartridge for medium sized large game as well.

Yes, they have a flatter trajectory and are better for long range use. But they also require special magazines, a special bolt, have lower capacity, and cost more for ammo. So it depends on the goal. 300 AAC BLACKOUT is not a long range round. It is good for hunting though. If you would shoot a deer with a 4 inch 357 Magnum at contact distance, then 300 AAC BLACKOUT gives that energy at out to about 400 yards, depending on the rifle barrel length.

As far as cost of ammo its to early to know for sure but so far it's not looking to promising. Who knows maybe the lighter 123gr will be cheaper but I'm not holding my breath.

You are linking to the Sierra MatchKing ammo. 308 with MatchKings retails for about $29 a box so $22 MSRP is a low price.

300 AAC BLACKOUT 123 grain ammo is $12.99 a box MSRP, and there is a dealer already selling it for $11.50 a box.

336A
December 25, 2010, 06:52 PM
The problem is that 5.56mm does not work well in short barrels and 7.62x39 does not work well in ARs.


This is a mute point as the common issues weapon is the M4A1 nor is DOD looking for 7.62x39 performance from the AR platform. If that were the case they wouldn't have spent so much $$ in R&D for the M855A1 round. Or they would have adopted the 6.8 SPC or something similar a long time ago if the need was there.

A good military application is CQB and PDWs. As for suppressors - before the 1990s, the use of body armor was highly limited. Things are changing.


Again the M4 chambered in 5.56 fills both roles very well and as a added benefit shoots flatter. At no time did I or my soldiers notice the 5.56 lacking during CQB use. As for suppressors if the need for them is in such great demand then why isn't the big Army issueing them? Body armor is a far greater need than are suppressors. DOD likes to keep things easy on the logistics side of the house as well. It is easy when all soldiers have to worry about is 5.56, 5.56 link, 7.62 118LR, 7.62 link (M80) 9mm .50 cal, and 40mm. It is simple and there is commonality when in a fire fight and you need to cross load.
I think SOCOM is important.

I never said they weren't, they are a huge asset and there is no denying that.

Same bullet, but the 30 AR is a 24 inch barrel. With 300 AAC BLACKOUT from a 16 inch barrel, the BC is 0.251.

So the down range performance and resulting trajectory is going to be even worse thats good to know.

I wouldn't use this cartridge on game regardless as it does not use bullets with a high enough SD IMHO. Yes it can use a 150gr bullet which has a SD of .226 however it launches said bullet to 2,000fps - 2,100fps which will vary upon BBL length. That is worse performance than what I can get with my 30-30 using the same bullet weight. On top of that I have the ability to use 160gr Hornady LE, 170gr and 190gr ammunition. Anything over 150gr in the .300 AAC is pointless for hunting medium sized large game due to limited case capacity. So I still say that this cartridge is a solution for non existing problem

rsilvers
December 25, 2010, 07:03 PM
dup

rsilvers
December 25, 2010, 07:04 PM
I am unsure why you are framing this round as only useful if it can replace the M4 with 5.56mm. The 6.8 and 6.5 cannot replace an M4 with 5.56mm without compromise in some areas. It depends on the specific use.

As for why the Army is not issuing suppressors, they are starting to. The XM2010 rifle has it as standard equipment.

As for hunting performance - it sounds like you are concerned about penetration. You can tune that with bullet design. Solid copper, bonded, or simply thicker jackets.

Bill Wilson has already fired 15 shots at game and had 15 kills, with no animal moving more than 15 yards and no animal needing a second shot. A 130 TSX has plenty of penetration - over 20 inches in 10% gel and hunters report exit wounds.

Your 30-30 is not an AR. Plenty of people want to hunt with their AR, and some states require 30 caliber or larger.

TexasPatriot.308
December 25, 2010, 07:32 PM
exactly what we need...another caliber that existing calibers can already perform like... when the SHTF, proven long time calibers are the only ones that are gonna do you any practical use.

SharpsDressedMan
December 25, 2010, 07:40 PM
If I were going into battle with an AR platform rifle that had been set up to be reliable for a .300 Whisper type cartridge (I'm giving the recognition to the Whisper, as the AAC B/O is just a close variant of it), then I would feel that I was very well armed. I had the opportunity to own and wring out such a platform about 8 years ago, and the resulting rifle and cartridge were part of a complete package: basic Bushmaster AR carbine converted to .300 Whisper, with AWC Spectrum 90 suppressor, Laser Devices MR-2 IR laser (mounted under the freefloat tube handguard), and a Trijicon Reflex NSN sight on the flattop. It was not select fire, but the performance was there. We loaded supersonic loads that pushed 125 or 150gr. bullets at peak velocities permissible with the Whisper round (consult your local reloading books). The gun functioned perfectly, and accuracy was subminute with 125gr Nolser BT's from the 1-8" twist. We also loaded and used subsonics with 220gr RN and BTHP bullets, and it was very impressive at distances out to 200 yards, and, with proper optics, capable of consistent hits to 400 or so yards. QD lever mounts allowed changing from the Reflex to modified scopes with what I'll call "Whisper Dots", which had greater spreads than mil-dots to accomodate the high arc trajectory/drop of the subsonic rounds. At night, with the use of night vision goggles, the IR laser or Reflex allowed basic point and shoot easily in total darkness outdoors, making it possible to do headshots in the dark, from the waist, if desired. Had it been combat, unless the enemy had night vision, they would never know what hit them (Note: the IR laser WILL give away one's position to anyone with night vision, but the Reflex could be employed in an instance where you believe the enemy has NVG's, etc, and it does NOT light up the user to the enemy). If I were a soldier headed for the Mideast or Afghanistan, and I could bring my own equipment, I would sell everything I own and take something like mentioned above. For what a sytem like that might give up to another weapons system, it more than makes up for in flexibility and it's ability to dominate the night with a silent round that has more retained energy at 400 yards than the .45 auto has at the muzzle.

Shawn Dodson
December 25, 2010, 07:53 PM
I'm probably one of the most skeptical people around when it comes to new cartridges and terminal performance.

When I first learned about .300 BLK I was extremely skeptical and questioned its niche role. As I investigated further I found it extremely appealing to me as I could turn one of my M4 carbines into a fast-handling general-purpose .30 caliber brush gun with just a barrel swap. I plan to purchase a .300 BLK 16" barrel, a set of reloading dies and whatever propellant I need to achieve the performance I want.

Brass won't be a problem because I can form .223 brass to .300 BLK.

This looks like its gonna be very fun cartridge for me to play with.

rsilvers
December 25, 2010, 08:07 PM
exactly what we need...another caliber that existing calibers can already perform like... when the SHTF, proven long time calibers are the only ones that are gonna do you any practical use.

What other platform is as quiet as an MP5-SD but yet penetrates soft armor and cover (including utility poles) while being 2-3 times as accurate as either an MP5 or MP7 and has 20% more energy than 5.56mm without giving up the 30 round mag capacity?

Mags
December 25, 2010, 09:04 PM
Ok so where can we buy uppers/barrels and ammo? Just checked my favorite reatiler MidwayUSA and they have none. Also AAC's website says NOTHING about this caliber.

336A
December 25, 2010, 09:05 PM
One of your big selling points about this platform is using a supprresor. Yes the Army does issue supprresors to snipers and that is a specialized weapon for a specific task. I'm talking about your average everyday Infantryman. We do not get issued supprresors nor will we as it is not needed. If it is then we incorporate our snipers. In that role the .300 AAC has nothing on a M24 or a M110 which is what I'd rather see our snipers using vs your .300 AAC.

Now lets talk about hunting. Why on earth would I want to spend more $$ on ammo using designer bullets for deer hunting, when plain ol' soft points will get it done for cheaper....? Especially in these harder economic times it sure is not this guy.

Anyway I in good faith am trying to give you and your product the benfit of doubt. I looked at the ballistcs for the TSX bullet fired from the 16" bbl. On the web page provided at the begining of this thread. I used the velocity given for the 110gr TSX and the Hornady 130gr bullet for the same weight TSX 2086fps.
I used a 200 yard zero for both and here is what I got.

110gr TSX BC .264
Range (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 2233 2082 1937 1667 1430 1235 1094
Energy (ft.-lb.) 1218 1058 916 678 499 372 293
Trajectory (200 yd. zero) -1.5 2.2 3.9 0.0 -16.5 -50.3 -106.9
Wind Drift (inches) 0.0 0.4 1.8 7.5 18.1 34.3 56.2
Come Up in MOA -1.5 -4.2 -3.7 0.0 5.3 12.0 20.4
Wind Drift (moa) 0.00 0.81 1.67 3.59 5.77 8.19 10.74

130gr TSX BC .340
Range (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 2086 1973 1863 1657 1471 1308 1176
Energy (ft.-lb.) 1256 1123 1002 792 624 494 399
Trajectory (200 yd. zero) -1.5 2.5 4.3 0.0 -17.0 -50.2 -103.8
Wind Drift (inches) 0.0 0.4 1.5 6.2 14.8 27.6 44.9
Come Up in MOA -1.5 -4.8 -4.1 0.0 5.4 12.0 19.8
Wind Drift (moa) 0.00 0.69 1.41 2.98 4.70 6.58 8.58

Sheeesh +3.9" and +4.3" at 100 yards for a 200 yard zero no thanks.

When compared to these options I'm feeling less than impressed.
Expensive designer monolithic bullet option.
http://www.hornady.com/store/30-30-Win-140-gr-monoflex-Leverevolution/

Then of course there is the original which averages 2350fps out of my 20" 336A. http://www.hornady.com/store/30-30-Win-160-gr-FTX-LEVERevolution/

Or I can use my preferred load which is the 150gr Federal Fusion which is cheaper than the above Hornady products. Yet still gives better performance in the hunting field vs the .300 AAC, same with the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 grendel.

BTW I would like to know what states prohibit the the use of calibers such as the .243, various 7mm cartridges, .270 Win, and the 6.5x55, and the like as that is a new one to me.

Mags
December 25, 2010, 09:10 PM
I'm talking about your average everyday Infantryman Sorry pal ain't no avareage squad member getting a non NATO cal anyways. Your argument is moot.

336A
December 25, 2010, 09:12 PM
Sorry pal ain't no avareage squad member getting a non NATO cal anyways.

Exactly right along with the product, moot point.

SharpsDressedMan
December 25, 2010, 09:14 PM
The Army (or any branch of the military) has not yet figured out that ALL small arms ought to have suppressors built into the weapon design. Sure the Army doesn't (yet) issue suppressors.........but they should. If one has not yet discovered the NEED for suppressors, well, I guess one just doesn't shoot very much...........................

336A
December 25, 2010, 09:19 PM
The Army don't do a lot of things that they SHOULD do and issuesing supprresors is one of them. That point I'll absolutely agree with you on.

Shawn Dodson
December 25, 2010, 09:23 PM
Why on earth would I want to spend more $$ on ammo using designer bullets for deer hunting...Then don't. Drive-on with your Marlin 30-30 and don't look back.

SharpsDressedMan
December 25, 2010, 09:43 PM
I think the question is: Is this new cartridge "worthy"? I say, "Yes." Whether or not it ever gets adopted by the military, who cares? We are not going to be the ones who evaluate it or adopt it FOR the military, but if it gains wide civilian acceptance and use, and if it attracts police, security, and para-military (yeah, I fall into the "used-to-be's" & "wannabe's" categories, too). My brief military service, and 20 years of former police service qualify me to be at least "an interested party", as I often buy such weapons, and use them for what I have a desire to. :evil::neener::D If this cartridge and weapons for it serve their owners and users well, who is to say it is wrong for them? Maybe the military procurement people will take notice. Stranger things have happened.

rsilvers
December 25, 2010, 09:50 PM
Ok so where can we buy uppers/barrels and ammo? Just checked my favorite reatiler MidwayUSA and they have none. Also AAC's website says NOTHING about this caliber.

123 grain ammo has only been out since Thursday and what was made is already sold out - at least to dealers, but Midway will have 123 grain ammo next week. AcuSport has a bunch on the way. Over 400,000 more rounds will be made in January, and then by Fed or March about 1.25 million will have been made.

300aacblackout.com

The following companies have announced products:

AAC - uppers, rifles, and ammunition.
Barnes Bullets - bullets
Black Hole Weaponry - barrels.
Bushmaster Firearms - uppers and rifles.
BWE Firearms - rifles, uppers, and suppressors.
Delta Company Arms - rifle
DPMS
Forster - reloading dies.
Noveske - rifles and uppers.
Pacific Tool and Gauge - reamers and gauges
Raven Armament Company - ammo and uppers
Remington - ammunition.
Selph Arms LLC - barrels, uppers, and rifles.
Spike's Tactical - uppers and rifles.
Umlaut Industries - 300 BLK caliber marked Rifles, Upper and Lowers. 16" and 10" Factory Title II.
Wilson Combat - rifles, hunting and self defense ammunition.

rsilvers
December 25, 2010, 10:00 PM
A lot of people want to hunt with their AR rather than a lever action. There are states which require at least 25 caliber.

336A - Those were not max velocities - those were down-range velocities at impact. The 110 VMAX does 3450 fps from a 16 inch barrel from 300 BLK.

Another nice thing about this cartridge - it can make 320+PF for 3-gun shooting in barrels as short as 9 inches. So people who have been using an AR10 to make the Heavy Metal requirements can do it with this in a standard AR.

rust collector
December 26, 2010, 10:35 AM
I have been fascinated by that small capacity .30 cartridge for many years, and wish AAC success in this new venture. Sounds like they have done their homework and I hope it pays off big.

I may not need such a cartridge, but I'm well past the need stage anyway. If it finds traction in the marketplace, it will sell many new uppers and silencing devices. That helps to keep our producers busy, and that's good for shooters generally. Being cheap probably isn't a good reason for picking up another gun, but there's no denying the fun I've had with my SKS, either.

If it someday provides a useful tool for our warriors, even in a limited role, it has my unqualified support.

jrumsey
December 26, 2010, 11:37 AM
I would like to know if this cartridge has been adopted by SAAMI or just submitted at this time? Who else besides Remington is or will be producing the 300 AAC Blackout Ammo? I still remember how Remington dropped the ball with the 6.8 SPC when it first came out, so forgive me for being a little worried that they might end up doing the same with the 300 BLK.
I have two AR-15's chambered for 30 caliber variants based on the 5.56x45mm case the 7.62x40mm and the 7.62ARk (7.62X36.75mm). So for me to consider the 300 Blackout, it would be entirely based on the availability of factory ammo.

Joe

Matt304
December 26, 2010, 11:42 AM
Why wouldn't you just ackley improve a 7.62x39, and have a harder hitting straight round than this thing?

rsilvers
December 26, 2010, 12:03 PM
Submitted only.

Sounds like the 30 Grendel.

Remington is making ammo.
Wilson Combat is going to make ammo.
Company A will be making ammo.
Company B will be making ammo.
Company C will be making ammo.

SharpsDressedMan
December 26, 2010, 02:37 PM
A big part of what AAC has done is finally push the AR-15 (.223 bolt face) compatible .30 round (now the AAC Blackout, formerly the .300 Whisper) into the public marketplace. J.D. Jones, developer of the Whisper, tried to keep his cartridge and all that went with it "proprietary", meaning he kept exclusive control of any sales related to the cartridge. Few other cartridge widcat developers have ever done that, and it stifled the popularity and use of a .30 AR platform round. AAC has now apparently tweaked it, and moved into the 21st century and brought it to the other manufacturers so tht it has mainstream availability. If consumers appear for the round, then weapons, cost, and availability will be close to that of the 6.8. It made no sense to me why a .300 Whisper rifle should cost 50-100% more than a comparable .223/5.56 rifle of the same design and materials, except for the desire by SSK to monopolize and attempt to charge just a little too much.

Shawn Dodson
December 26, 2010, 05:39 PM
The 110 VMAX does 3450 fps from a 16 inch barrel from 300 BLK.

Typo?

3450 fps or 2450 fps?

Hani Pasha
December 26, 2010, 05:48 PM
Can anyone tell me (in layman's terms) what the supersonic .300 AAC Blackout performs like at longer ranges, such as 300 to 800 yards? How does it measure up against rounds commonly thought of as more suited to ranges like that, such as the trusty .308?

R.W.Dale
December 26, 2010, 05:56 PM
Can anyone tell me (in layman's terms) what the supersonic .300 AAC Blackout performs like at longer ranges, such as 300 to 800 yards? How does it measure up against rounds commonly thought of as more suited to ranges like that, such as the trusty .308?

In laymans terms it will be better than throwing rocks.....but not much. This chambering beyond 300yds is about in the same league as using a 9mm handgun at 100

And this from a fellow who'se used 7.62x39 to hunt whitetail at ranges approaching 300yds

Now this is not to say this cartridge isn't going to be effective inside it's optimum performance/range envelope. It's just that using such a round for 300to800 yd shooting is like trying to use a tack hammer in place of a 7/16" line wrench.

Zak Smith
December 26, 2010, 06:07 PM
It's similar to 7.62x39, plus or minus.

This is to say that it's well suited to applications like the majority of white-tail deer hunting, which takes place mostly within 100 yards. Before we got so hung up on power, many deer were killed with .25 Remington and other cartridges we'd scoff at today.

There are plenty of cartridges that do this job well, and that there are many does not diminish the utility of any of them.

A lightweight carbine in .300 Whisper would be fine, handy woods deer rifle.

rsilvers
December 26, 2010, 06:58 PM
Sorry, I did mean 2450 fps for a 110 V-MAX from a 16 inch barrel. Federal rates their 357 Magnum ammo (C357E) at 539 ft-lbs at the muzzle (handgun). So 300 AAC BLACKOUT matches that at 380 yards.

At 100 yards, the 357 would be at 400 ft-lbs. So if you would shoot a deer with a 357 from a handgun at 100 yards, then you should be willing to do it with the 300 AAC BLACKOUT at 500 yards.

In laymans terms it will be better than throwing rocks.....but not much. This chambering beyond 300yds is about in the same league as using a 9mm handgun at 100

Actually a 9mm at 100 yards is 241 ft-lbs. The 300 AAC BLACKOUT has that much energy at 755 yards.

http://www.hornady.com/store/9mm-Luger-115-gr-XTP/

jrumsey
December 26, 2010, 07:40 PM
rsilvers :
Thanks for the info. I will be watching for SAAMI adoption and more ammo availability in the future. When do you expect 300 BLK head stamped brass be released, and more bullet types made for it's velocity range. Will the Redding 300/221 Remington dies work for reloading the 300 BLK.

Joe

R.W.Dale
December 26, 2010, 07:55 PM
Rsilvers please don't insult us with outlandish claims or padded ballistics comparisons. We are not your average clueless fudds here.

A .357 magnum carbine will easily push 800ft lbs at 100

Surely if you're in the ammo industry you know of the world of difference between shooting a handgun projectile designed for the velocities it's impacting at vs a rifle bullet well under it's optimum impact velocity even if the energy is similar.

Whitetail at 500 yds with a cartridge that only offers a little over 20% more power than 30carbine. REALLY????are you seriously that hard up to make a buck you'd advocate such blatantly irresponsible behavior?

At 500yds in as light as a 5 mph crosswind the 300blk 110g v-max load is pushing close to TWO FEET of wind drift

http://184.72.239.143/mu/adca5742-d7ed-2fda.jpg

Posted on an iPhone via tapatalk

rsilvers
December 26, 2010, 08:07 PM
R.W.Dale - you said exact quote "This chambering beyond 300yds is about in the same league as using a 9mm handgun at 100"

I replied: "Actually a 9mm at 100 yards is 241 ft-lbs. The 300 AAC BLACKOUT has that much energy at 755 yards."

The fact is, you claimed 300 AAC BLACKOUT has a certain level of performance at 300 yards when in fact it has that level of performance at 755 yards.

R.W.Dale
December 26, 2010, 08:20 PM
R.W.Dale - you said exact quote "This chambering beyond 300yds is about in the same league as using a 9mm handgun at 100"

I replied: "Actually a 9mm at 100 yards is 241 ft-lbs. The 300 AAC BLACKOUT has that much energy at 755 yards."

The fact is, you claimed 300 AAC BLACKOUT has a certain level of performance at 300 yards when in fact it has that level of performance at 755 yards.

Is 755yds beyond 300?

what does about mean in the context above?

rsilvers
December 26, 2010, 08:29 PM
Is 755yds beyond 300?

what does about mean in the context above?

It seems like you are saying that 755 yards is about 300 yards. That is a 152% difference and I don't think any reasonable person would consider them about the same.

If you wanted to make a statement without being misleading then perhaps say: "This chambering beyond 750yds is about in the same league as using a 9mm handgun at 100"

R.W.Dale
December 26, 2010, 08:47 PM
It seems like you are saying that 755 yards is about 300 yards. That is a 152% difference and I don't think any reasonable person would consider them about the same.

If you wanted to make a statement without being misleading then perhaps say: "This chambering beyond 750yds is about in the same league as using a 9mm handgun at 100"
No I was being polite and attempting to not unnecessarily bash your invention with harsh rhetoric

I stand by my statement as what I was attempting to say POLITELY is that beyond 300yds the 300BLK is in the same league as a 9mm at 100 in that it's not going to work worth a crap. After all Hani Pasha asked for it in laymans terms.

And before you kick the marketing machine in high range I've used 30cal AR15 variants that outperform yours by a wide margin on targets and afield, take it form me they don't work worth a crap beyond 300yds. There's too much wind drift, too much time in flight and really NO 30caliber bullets that can be relied apoun to expand below 1600fps.

So please cut the hyperbole, just tell folks what your cartridge is good for but be honest enough to tell folks what your cartridge is NOT good for too. They will respect you for it and give what you say more concideration. Cause I assure you folks here have a very highly developed BS sniffer and the below quote is pure BS.

Who deer hunts with a 357 mag revolver at 100yds????

So if you would shoot a deer with a 357 from a handgun at 100 yards, then you should be willing to do it with the 300 AAC BLACKOUT at 500 yards.


Now if you want to compare apples to apples and compare 300blk carbine velocities to .357mag carbine velocities we can and I'll be more than happy to make the comparison in a friendly adult manner?

rsilvers
December 26, 2010, 09:18 PM
R.W.Dale - The 300 AAC BLACKOUT is not a long range caliber, but there is no comeback from your grossly misleading statement. Everyone sees it for what it is. You said that beyond 300 yds the 300BLK is in the same league as a 9mm at 100 when you should have said beyond 750 yds.

I would not hunt with a compact handgun at 100 yards, but you brought up 100 yard handgun with your 9mm comparison. I corrected that data and added in a 357 Magnum example.

take it form me they don't work worth a crap beyond 300yds. There's too much wind drift, too much time in flight and really NO 30caliber bullets that can be relied apoun to expand below 1600fps.

If you had said that the first time, it is reasonable enough that I would not have tried to counter it. From a 16 inch barrel, the 300 AAC BLACKOUT reaches 1600 fps at 330 yards. So the max range where the bullet would expand is about 330 yards.

Likewise, M193 from an AR15 16 inch barrel has a threshold of fragmentation max range of 160 yards.

http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_fragrange.html

R.W.Dale
December 26, 2010, 09:30 PM
If you had said that the first time, it is reasonable enough that I would not have tried to counter it. From a 16 inch barrel, the 300 AAC BLACKOUT reaches 1600 fps at 330 yards. So the max range where the bullet would expand is about 330 yards.

I had no intention of being misleading, I was merely trying to be polite.

The 300 AAC BLACKOUT is not a long range caliber,

You know it's not such a bad thing to claim that performance on game wise it's very similar to 7.62x39 or a 357 carbine That fires from the ar15 platform and is suitable for all the same critters at the same ranges. Then pointing out the icing on the cake that is uses STD .223-5.56 mags and bolts as well as a nice normal dirt cheap piece of brass.

Heck just seeing it written out that way makes me kinda want one. You might think about developing a load that uses a 150 or 170g 30-30 bullet as fast as you can get it to go. That might be an excellent seller for hunters wanting a cheaper loading to use on deer at traditional lever gun ranges. I don't know what the case capacity of the 300blk is but I had 7.62x39 loads that would do 1920fps from a 16" bbl with the 170g hornady FP, if BLK will do similar that it would indeed do everything 30-30 would in terms of putting deer down but in a handy dandy package

rsilvers
December 26, 2010, 09:44 PM
Ok.

I am working on a 110 V-MAX and an Ultra Bonded Cor-Lokt. When at the lower velocities of this cartridge, the lighter bullets tend to penetrate in a way that you would normally expect of heavier bullets.

Wilson Combat is working on a 130 T-TSX.

I know of two other ammo makers who plan five loads each but don't know their bullet styles.

All in all, I know of 14 loadings coming out.

The first expanding ammo made in large quantities should be out in Feb or March.

R.W.Dale
December 26, 2010, 09:52 PM
I am working on a 110 V-MAX and an Ultra Bonded Cor-Lokt. When at the lower velocities of this cartridge, the lighter bullets tend to penetrate in a way that you would normally expect of heavier bullets.

This has been my findings as well, at impact speeds of less than 2000fps varmint bullets don't necessarily act like varmint bullets, This said I hedged my bets and used the 125g Nosler ballistic tip for hunting, with this bullet there's a lot of terminal ballistics data to draw on from the 30-30 handgun crowd whom heavily favor this projectile.

At 278yds and a MV of 2450fps on a mid sized Arkansas doe broadside there still wasn't an exit

I realize the 125 nosler isn't a true varmint bullet but I could find accounts (from the manufacturer and users) of how the B-tip behaved on deer around 1600fps, I could find no such data on 30 caliber TNT's or V-maxes.

I still think a heavy RN 30-30 mimicking load would be a valuable asset

SharpsDressedMan
December 26, 2010, 10:30 PM
For recent whitetail hunting, I have been using the 150 and 170gr. bullets designed for .30-30's as they open up better at lower velocities than standard .30 hunting bullets. The .300/.221 (or cut down .223) can be a reliable deer cartridge at 150-200 yards with the FP bullets in those weights, and I have loaded the Barnes 150gr X-bullet, but have not shot an animal with it yet. The really cool thing about the cartridge is the versatility: 110gr HP's to 240gr Match bullets.....take you pick. Pick your challenge, then operate within the range of your load. I limit myself between 125 Ballistic Tips and 220gr BTHP in bullet weights. From light/medium size game hunting to tactical delivery of a 220gr subsonic to 250 yards, this round and guns available COULD serve most of my rifle needs.

rsilvers
December 26, 2010, 10:35 PM
The best price comparison for supersonic ammo is brass-cased 7.62x39mm:

Imported:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=295405 $11.59
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=373939 $13.79

USA:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=883096 $15.29
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=371433 $15.99
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=831144 $17.29

$16.19 average for USA (25% more expensive than 300 AAC BLACKOUT, or 41% more if you use the $11.50 pricing that one dealer is offering).

336A
December 26, 2010, 10:40 PM
And before you kick the marketing machine in high range I've used 30cal AR15 variants that outperform yours by a wide margin on targets and afield, take it form me they don't work worth a crap beyond 300yds. There's too much wind drift, too much time in flight and really NO 30caliber bullets that can be relied apoun to expand below 1600fps.


Exactly just use a simple JSP bullet for hunting designed to work within the velocity constraints of this cartridge. There is no need for a Core Lokt Ultra Bonded bullet for this cartridge, a simple Core Lokt design will suffice. However I guess that Freedom Group needs to get $$ from the uninformed somhow.

So please cut the hyperbole, just tell folks what your cartridge is good for but be honest enough to tell folks what your cartridge is NOT good for too. They will respect you for it and give what you say more concideration. Cause I assure you folks here have a very highly developed BS sniffer and the below quote is pure BS.

+100^^^^^^^^

Stop churching it up as it is nothing more than a 7.62 x39 (performance wise) in a different guise yet has the ability to use subsonic ammo and function in the AR Platform. It's that simple nothing less and nothing more.

rsilvers
December 26, 2010, 11:06 PM
Stop churching it up as it is nothing more than a 7.62 x39 (performance wise) in a different guise yet has the ability to use subsonic ammo and function in the AR Platform. It's that simple nothing less and nothing more.

I agree that it is of the 7.62x39mm power class but compatible with ARs.

W.E.G.
December 26, 2010, 11:24 PM
Seems to me the real cachet of this round is the subsonic capability, combined with compatibility with the AR design - and not insignificantly, UNMODIFIED AR-15 magazines.

I'm not sure why the haters are going on-and-on about wind-drift at 300 yards and such.

This combo will shine its brightest (and quietest) for 100 yards or less.

Yes, you will need an SBR stamp, and a suppressor stamp, and the basic costs of those toys to really enjoy this round.

rsilvers
December 26, 2010, 11:31 PM
In subsonic mode, it is quiet like an MP5-SD, and yet can shoot through cover (including a utility pole). Accuracy is about 2x an MP7 and about 3x an MP5. Range is far more than either.

R.W.Dale
December 26, 2010, 11:36 PM
Question:

To run in supersonic and sub sonic mode is an adjustable gas block/system required?

rsilvers
December 26, 2010, 11:44 PM
I specified a powder for subsonic which generates enough gas pressure that the same gas port works for both. That is one of the benefits of developing the guns and ammo together. Now other gun companies, like Noveske - set their gas port to match the Remington factory ammo. And other ammo companies are matching the type of powder Remington uses - so it is all coming together.

That was one problem with 300 Whisper(TM) - loading data was put out for Thompson single shot pistols and bolt action rifles - and did not work well in ARs. So the cartridge got a reputation for being tricky to get working. That is all solved now.

armarsh
December 26, 2010, 11:59 PM
What length gas tubes are you planning on using?

rsilvers
December 27, 2010, 12:04 AM
Pistol length for 9 and 12.5 inch barrels and carbine length for 16 to 20 inch barrels.

Hani Pasha
December 27, 2010, 12:39 AM
Thanks for answering my question.

It seems to me that even the supersonic load is of utility to the average AR-15 user. Although its uses at longer ranges are minimal at best, we all know that there is a market for hard-hitting, close-in calibers. After all, AK47s sell very well in the US, and calibers with even more of a niche market, like the .50 Beowulf and others have done well.

I'll certainly keep up with the .300 Blackout, but I have little interest in getting an SBR and suppressor combo with so few applications. If the supersonic rounds come down in price, the market would be greatly broadened.

rsilvers
December 27, 2010, 12:46 AM
USA made 7.62x39mm ammo is 25-41% more expensive than 300 AAC BLACKOUT, so the ammo is not coming down in price more unless brass and lead comes down in price, or if someone like Wolf starts making imported steel cased ammo.

Hani Pasha
December 27, 2010, 03:50 AM
That is a very fair point, sir. However, when I shoot Kalashnikovs, I don't bother using quality ammunition... then again, I'd imagine that users of .300 AAC BLACKOUT would use nothing other than quality ammunition. I rescind my point entirely--it looks like ammo will be reasonably priced.

Whoa, I re-read parts of the thread, and I realize that I must have missed that .300 AAC BLACKOUT uses standard AR magazines... that's pretty impressive. 6.8mm SPC and 6.5mm Grendel ARs require special magazines, right? If you haven't guessed by now, I'm not exactly an AR buff. >>;

InkedIan
December 27, 2010, 08:39 PM
Who is this company selling it for $11.50??? Midway sells the subsonics for $21 and it's on backorder.

rsilvers
December 27, 2010, 08:43 PM
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=128&t=65865

InkedIan
December 27, 2010, 08:57 PM
Thanks

Mags
December 30, 2010, 03:59 PM
Just vaporware until I can buy an upper online.

HD Fboy
January 2, 2011, 03:02 PM
Just to clarify.

I can take my 5.56 AR-15 remove the barrel, replace it with your barrel and shoot a projectile which simulates a 30-30. I don't have to change anything else? Just Barrel and Ammo correct???

Assuming this is true:

Sorry guys, if this really gives a range shooter hunting ability without adding another gun.

Add a Mid priced optic marked for this cartridge makes this a winner for the average shooter assuming he has a friend who can work on his gun for a 6 pack.

I am courious, How many different cartridges can you shoot subsonic or supersonic out of an AR with just a barrel change? I didn't realize you could just change the barrel to shoot a different round. Are there other rounds that allow this?

rsilvers
January 2, 2011, 03:12 PM
Yes, that it correct.

Except it is not exactly as powerful as a 30-30. It makes the same velocity, but with a 123-125 grain bullet rather than a 150 grain bullet. It is 7.62x39 power.

30-30 cannot have pointed bullets, except for the Leverution flexible points. So down-range, they will be effectively the same.

rust collector
January 2, 2011, 06:00 PM
While you could just switch barrels, I plan to get an upper so that switching over and back is a matter of pushing two pins.

If this goes according to plan, I can see I'll have to mark my mags to be sure what each is loaded with. Maybe color coded 1" hot dots on the 30 cal, so I don't get to the range with a bunch of mags loaded with the wrong ammo.

68wj
January 2, 2011, 06:34 PM
While you could just switch barrels, I plan to get an upper so that switching over and back is a matter of pushing two pins.

If this goes according to plan, I can see I'll have to mark my mags to be sure what each is loaded with. Maybe color coded 1" hot dots on the 30 cal, so I don't get to the range with a bunch of mags loaded with the wrong ammo.
That is what I am doing with my 6.8 and 5.56. Of course, since the mags are specific to caliber, I would be in trouble even if I grabbed the wrong empty mag.

Hatterasguy
January 2, 2011, 08:07 PM
It looks like a step back, ie a cut down full size .30 caliber round, like the 7.62x39 or the 7.92 Kurz. I'll buy one when NATO adopts it which isn't going to happen. Cut down rifle rounds were used for ease of manufacture during WW2 by the Germans, when they made the STG43/44 and invented the concept of an intermediate round and rifle, and later taken and run with by the Soviets. Taking the lessons learned into consideration the country's on the winning side after the war were planning on going with a .20 caliber round, possible the British .280 before we rammed the 7.62x51 NATO down their throats.

.20 caliber military rounds are not going anywhere.

rsilvers
January 2, 2011, 08:12 PM
Or the Germans had it right the first time. 125 grain at 2250 fps:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.92x33mm_Kurz

HorseSoldier
January 2, 2011, 08:17 PM
Just vaporware until I can buy an upper online.

Noveske shows a variety of options in stock for the caliber.

Or the Germans had it right the first time. 125 grain at 2250 fps:

What the German original (pre war) R&D indicated was that a 7mm projectile was optimal for what was then classified as the machine carbine project. 7.92x33 was dictated by ease of wartime production, not optimal performance.

x_wrench
January 2, 2011, 08:21 PM
we have all been waiting for this, WHY? i certainly have not been waiting for it, unless it has some kind of rocket science built into it to make it effective out to 1000 yards.

R.W.Dale
January 2, 2011, 08:27 PM
If I may from a sporting point of view I'll share where this round fits.

IMO comparisons to rifle cartridges like .308 are a non starter and are all but pointless.

Where this round excels is in that cozy little corner between 357mag carbines, 7.62x39 and 30-30win. Where this round wins out is that it does it in an AR15 lower with standard magazines and an all but free piece of brass.

You would use the 300blk anywhere afield where you would a 357 or x39 carbine and even 30/30 if you're just talking about whitetail.

Like it or not the AR platform is America levergun in the 21'st century, the 300blk compliments this role well.


Tapatalk post via IPhone.

Hatterasguy
January 2, 2011, 08:35 PM
Or the Germans had it right the first time. 125 grain at 2250 fps:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.92x33mm_Kurz

No, it was designed for ease of manufacture. The war was going on, they didn't want to retool for a different bullet.

jrumsey
January 2, 2011, 08:52 PM
This!

Or the Germans had it right the first time. 125 grain at 2250 fps:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.92x33mm_Kurz

HD Fboy
January 3, 2011, 09:24 AM
If I may from a sporting point of view I'll share where this round fits.

IMO comparisons to rifle cartridges like .308 are a non starter and are all but pointless.

Where this round excels is in that cozy little corner between 357mag carbines, 7.62x39 and 30-30win. Where this round wins out is that it does it in an AR15 lower with standard magazines and an all but free piece of brass.

You would use the 300blk anywhere afield where you would a 357 or x39 carbine and even 30/30 if you're just talking about whitetail.

Like it or not the AR platform is America levergun in the 21'st century, the 300blk compliments this role well.


Tapatalk post via IPhone.
That's my whole point. As a 50 year old I own a 30-06. The under 30 crowd that has one rifle owns a AR.

When and where I deer hunt the 30-06 with a big scope against a 80 pound doe is too much. No shot is further than 150 yards. I have been looking at different calibers In the AR platform To use with a aim point, Eotech or even iron sights.

I understand this is not a do all end all caliber. I am not saying it is. But for less than $500 you can add an upper to an existing platform and add capability.

rsilvers
January 18, 2011, 11:27 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-Q7EsIPGY8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPiqZXu9kP0&feature=channel

rsilvers
January 18, 2011, 11:28 AM
Scope is 1.5-5 FFP.

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/3793/img1493io.jpg
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/3531/img1497bb.jpg
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/1713/img1500my.jpg
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/7166/img1511a.jpg
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/927/scopeillume.jpg
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1435/scope.jpg

451 Detonics
January 18, 2011, 11:42 AM
Heck...I have been shooting the original version of this round (the 300 Whisper) that ACC copied for years. No I don't consider changing the length of the brass by a mm "cartridge development". It is a great round for suppressed work with subsonics in a rifle that also does a great job as a CQC carbine with super sonic rounds.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z271/reloader1959/rifles/whisper.jpg

InkedIan
January 21, 2011, 01:22 PM
How much is the scope and what grain bullets and velocities is the reticle set for?

rsilvers
January 30, 2011, 11:29 PM
The specifics on the scope are not settled yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m45oQiIF9x4&feature=youtube_gdata

rsilvers
January 30, 2011, 11:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjWjP1-LOws

smokinfeathers
February 2, 2011, 08:32 PM
I was at houston armory yesterday and they had subsonic ammo in stock and out of the owners suppressed bolt gun I am hooked!! I have a new cyclone can waiting on a stamp and will be rebarreling a bolt and upper to have ready when i get the can. This is perfect for me for doing hog depredation, especially at night under special permit in town and on golf course and such. The bolt guns they are putting together and the ammo is moving fast in this area. Looks to have a good foot hold so far.

1stmarine
February 2, 2011, 11:08 PM
Show me something new, would you? This is like a .300 Fireball re-invented.

rsilvers
February 2, 2011, 11:12 PM
Why do you want something new? What is wrong with standardizing the 300 Fireball Wildcat into a SAAMI factory round?

1stmarine
February 2, 2011, 11:13 PM
That's my point. I don't need something I already have.

rsilvers
February 2, 2011, 11:17 PM
There was no low cost readily available factory ammo available for 300 Fireball because it was not a SAAMI standard round. Now there will be.

1stmarine
February 2, 2011, 11:47 PM
I see your point. I am happy for the enthusiast so I hope this is the case.
I have seen some AR alternative offerings come out with lots of promises and the cost never came down due to the fact that most demand stayed with the military based cartridges and big five or six. I do not do much shooting with this and found the brass to be affordable but I am happy if someone can make it cheaper for everyone.
Hopefully this will be the case.
Cheers,
E.

VT Deer Hunter
February 3, 2011, 12:40 AM
Cool looking round powerful too, I like the name Black Out! :cool:

scmar
February 3, 2011, 11:54 AM
Where can I find a barrel for a Remington model seven , apparently the ones at Midway are gone?

Hunterdad
February 3, 2011, 12:00 PM
^^^where do these people come from?

smokinfeathers
February 3, 2011, 05:28 PM
AAC is supposed to be selling rem barrels on their website. There is a link on the front page.

Skinsanity
February 3, 2011, 06:50 PM
I have been following this thread, and looking elsewhere on info for this round and my conclusions are..

1) If you dont like it..dont buy it
If you see it for what it is you will appreciate it..Its not meant to REPLACE anything..its meant to give AR users who want a larger, more versatile, round than the current options.
The 9mm and .45 were doing the job just fine when the .40 cal came along and I heard all of these same arguments then.."why reinvent the blah blah.." and " This the answer to a question that was never asked"...but..because of good marketing, and a niche, it is and will always be a standard round...STANDARD being the key word..AAR is working with SAAMI to make this a standard round and it will be available in quantities to support the people that shoot it..unlike many of the other cartridges that I have heard mentioned...

Personally I think this round will be around for a good long time, and with continued development I think it will become far more popular than people are talking about..It does have a use...and its use, as I see it is much more broad than the 5.56..It could be used as a CQB rifle, with mid range capabilities exceeding the aformentioned cartridge. The extremely effective silenced capabilities just add to its usefulness..

I see it as what the AR SHOULD have been chambered for in the first place, IMHO. And I dont even own an AR yet, when I can afford one, I sure as hell hope I can get one in 300BLK. As I have always liked the 7.62x39 round and have a few rifles that fire it..and have always said that was my major gripe with the AR platform..That erases my major gripe and may be the deciding factor in me getting one fairly soon.

Thanks to AAC for doing the R&D on the cartridge, where would we be if no one had tried to develope the .308 because the .30-06 was the wheel and there wasnt a need to Re-invent it?

scmar
February 4, 2011, 01:37 AM
Thanks Smokinfeathers.

taliv
March 26, 2011, 06:59 PM
anyone know where this ammo is in stock?

it is out of stock at midway

highlander 5
March 26, 2011, 07:06 PM
I'm hopeing Allen Arms will be getting a shipment soon. Midway did have 300 Whisper made by Cor-Bon which will work in a 300 AAC but the price per box is a heart stopper

rsilvers
March 26, 2011, 10:43 PM
Midway and Allen Arms should be resupplied very soon. The ammo is on the press now.

3006mv
April 1, 2011, 11:46 PM
Available load data?

451 Detonics
April 2, 2011, 12:57 AM
Show me something new, would you? This is like a .300 Fireball re-invented

It is, they simply took all the R and D the JD Jones did and renamed it. The claim by using .223 brass they created a new round but JD has stated for years you can make the 300 Whisper with .223 brass...but the .221 Fireball requires less trimming and reaming. The .221 was the parent case for the .223 btw.

Just look at 300 Whisper data...it is the same cartridge as the AAC copy of it. Bill Wilson is also selling his version, the 7.62X40 WT.

rsilvers
April 2, 2011, 01:14 AM
300 AAC BLACKOUT is higher velocity than 300 Whisper(R).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRw-ypBgrKo

rsilvers
April 2, 2011, 01:27 AM
The concept is public domain.

People have been wild-catting 30 cals in 5.56mm or 221 Fireball cases since 1969 or 1970.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/9296/icct3.jpg

Photo Circa 1970

http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/1981/eglint1t3b.jpg

rsilvers
April 5, 2011, 10:08 PM
Brass:

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?tabid=19&categoryid=21161&categorystring=652***670***9013***

Huckelberry75
April 6, 2011, 01:30 AM
Tag

451 Detonics
April 6, 2011, 01:41 AM
300 AAC BLACKOUT is higher velocity than 300 Whisper(R).

Hard to believe as they are the same cartridge. In fact on the 300 AAC Blackout page it shows a 123 gr loaded to 2315fps while data for a 125 in the 300 Whisper shows 2400fps.

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