Disappointing CHL instructor


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fourdeuce82d
December 15, 2003, 01:34 AM
Just got back from renewing my Texas CHL. Instructor was ex marine, ex sheriff's department...nice guy, pretty knowledgable...


Son of a b!@Ch swept the whole class multiple times with some flavor of sig. The slide was locked back, he made a point of having multiple people confirm it was empty... But he kept sweeping us with the muzzle.


Am I a wussy for not liking it? Sweet Jumping Buddha on a Pogo Stick- rule one- there is no such thing as an unloaded gun- all the things he was demonstrating could have been done WITHOUT POINTING THE DAMN MUZZLE IN MY/OUR DIRECTION.

I could accept it if it is a water pistol, and we're doing disarms, etc.- but it seemed really unprofessional to wave the damn thing around like that.

I didn't think I was going to be shot...it was sort of like seeing a college professor chew corned beef hash with his mouth open- ugly, inappropriate, and completely unexpected.

The whole point of the first rule is to instill an ingrained, gut reaction against doing things with an unloaded weapon that we wouldn't do with a loaded one. Couldn't believe this guy was hosing us like that.

thoughts?

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Black Majik
December 15, 2003, 04:47 AM
no its not unusual to feel a bit "awkward" to be swept by a gun even though you know its unloaded. It just follows the principle of treat each gun as if it was loaded. Simple as that.

I recently went to a gunshop, name I wont mention... but starts with an S and ends with a tockade. The salesperson pointed the barrel of a 12 ga. shotgun at my to show me the thicker barrel of a Mossberg 590. I moved out of the way, didn't really say anything. He brings out a Remington 870 Marine magnum, points that barrel at me also (action open) and continues to tell me how the barrel is not weighted like the Mossberg is etc...

Damn, I'm still waiting for a day I get a good experience with that shop. I just go there to look and I look down the barrel of two 12 ga. shotguns.

... great... :uhoh: :cuss:

Double Naught Spy
December 15, 2003, 05:50 AM
If the events are as described, the instructor did wrong. If you failed to say anything to him, or any of the other students, then y'all did wrong as well. He should not have done it and y'all should not have sat there and let him do it to you time and time again. The first time is a possible mistake. Multiple times and something is definitely wrong.

If you feel the instructor was not acting in a professional manner and with the proper gun handling actions, describe the incident in detail and report him to the CHL section of DPS. Failure to do so will compound the mistakes made so far.

Highland Ranger
December 15, 2003, 07:08 AM
If the events are as described, the instructor did wrong. If you failed to say anything to him, or any of the other students, then y'all did wrong as well. He should not have done it and y'all should not have sat there and let him do it to you time and time again. The first time is a possible mistake. Multiple times and something is definitely wrong.

If you feel the instructor was not acting in a professional manner and with the proper gun handling actions, describe the incident in detail and report him to the CHL section of DPS. Failure to do so will compound the mistakes made so far.

I wonder how that would effect your renewal (essentially complaining about the teacher and potentially putting the guy out of work)?

Which is probably why no one brought it up!

TarpleyG
December 15, 2003, 07:54 AM
Every gun store that I have been into has had the guns in the cabinet pointed at my crotch. If the slide was back and everyone in the room concurred, then the gun is unloaded. If he didn't need to point in your direction maybe he shouldn't have. Sometimes I think folks take this a little too seriously. I mean, when you are cleaning your gun, do you ever point the gun in an unsafe direction or cover the muzzle with your hand? Of course you do.

GT

El Tejon
December 15, 2003, 08:06 AM
"Muzzle!"

Don't be afraid to speak up when you see gun rag-like weapons handling. Better hurt feelings, than new holes in you or others. Sloppy instruction like that won't help the CCW cause down there either.

Speak up.:)

lee n. field
December 15, 2003, 08:40 AM
Son of a b!@Ch swept the whole class multiple times with some flavor of sig. The slide was locked back, he made a point of having multiple people confirm it was empty... But he kept sweeping us with the muzzle.

That's what the molded bright blue or red plastic guns are for.

I'd have felt the same way.

hillbilly
December 15, 2003, 09:05 AM
That's why when I do anything in the classroom which involves me pointing a "gun" anywhere near a student, I use a wooden rubber band gun.............But then again, the one I've got is the dreaded, rapid-fire, Auto-Mag assault rubber band gun.........


hillbilly

Will Fennell
December 15, 2003, 09:29 AM
4duece,
If you are uncomfortable, SPEAK UP. If nothing else, you should tell this guy now, after the class, so that he will understand that he is making his PAYING customers uncomfortable. He should KNOW this.

roo_ster
December 15, 2003, 09:45 AM
fourdeuce82d:

You were right in your belief that your instructor was demonstrating poor gunhamdling skills, whatever his background. I get noticably jumpy when I get swept with a muzzle, with the exclusion of weapons in cases...I do not fear that a firearm will go off all by itself. I have proved to myself that a loaded gun, if left sitting on a table or in a case, will not fire of its own accord. Here, let me try again & put my Kel-tec on the table top...<pause>...Nope, the sucker did not light off, jump for my throat, or otherwise try to kill me. Its true! Guns don't kill, but the guy behind it can be another thing altogether.

The place where I received my required Texas CHL instruction was the Bullet Trap in Plano. Totally professional instructor. Model gunhandling behavior. He made a point of not sweeping the class, pointed out what he was NOT doing and why. I got no complaints. BTW, he wasn't ex-military, ex-LEO, or ex-anything that I am aware of. He was just an average Joe who paid attention to detail.

If you're gonna sweep folks, get a demonstrator pistola. Heck, I still feel awkward sweeping somebody with a toy gun.

Glamdring
December 15, 2003, 10:59 AM
Pointing a gun at someone you are not WILLING to shoot is dangerous.
If you do it with "empty" guns you will do it with loaded guns.

I myself would have said something, polite words but with lots of command voice, the first time he swept the class.

If he did it a second time I would do something more (leave, disarm him, ask if he ever PASSED a gun safety course).

I have to ask two questions: Did he go over the Cooper or NRA gun safety rules??

Did he have his finger on trigger of gun while he was sweeping class?

4v50 Gary
December 15, 2003, 11:02 AM
Geez. Even though it's empty, it's poor courtesy and an poor example for an instructor.:o

Scooter .45
December 15, 2003, 05:12 PM
Exactly what we all need...to get comfortable with the idea of pointing unloaded guns at people. Sounds like this guy was feeding his need for power. He oughta know better and that's the only reason I can think of that he'd do a thing like that.

Standing Wolf
December 15, 2003, 07:57 PM
I went to an F.B.I. course years ago whose instructor swept all of us with the muzzle of a loaded gun. There was no justification for it then, and no more today.

If you can't handle firearms safely, you should take up stamp collecting or playing the accordion.

fourdeuce82d
December 16, 2003, 12:36 AM
Thanks for the responses. I thought about saying something during the course...but didn't. Guess for one thing I wanted to get my (re)certification.

Also, I realized it actualy WAS unloaded, slide locked back, etc. Still....

I've worked at that range before as a grunt, and I do intend to mention this to the owner.

As others have mentioned, it's rude, it's UNfarkin' safe...and it sets a bad example for the students.

I was just blown away that a guy with his background would do something like that. Let alone the time during the break when he demonstrated the guide rod laser pointer by waving it around, again sweeping us.


I've posted here before about blowing a hole through my groin and down trhough my leg. But that only endangered me.


Boys and girls...first, second, third rules. believe them, obey them...or sooner or later the best you can hope for is a personal "Owwww damn that smarts."

Worst case you're standing over a dead child saying "umm...oops..geeze, I'm really sorry." And that will make you wish you'd taken the round in the head yourself.

rayra
December 16, 2003, 04:46 AM
Speak up.
If the "instructor" continues to sweep you / the class, or worse, gets belligerent about it, then insist that 'if you won't be Safe, I will', and move your seat to his offhand rear quarter.

duckfoot
December 16, 2003, 05:12 AM
Like El Tejon said a low "Muzzle!" to let him know that you are not cool with being flagged and should correct the problem. If not then, that guy isn't all that bright, and needs to have a private word, letting him know even if he shows the entire world that the firearm is empty you are not cool with being flagged with a firearm, and needs to get a dummy gun for demos.

If the only thing that you can do with a firearm is make noise, as long as you show that you are safe making it, then you got no problems with me.

fiVe
December 16, 2003, 09:38 AM
Sorry about your experience, fourduece. My CWL training was done in tandem by 3 deputy sheriffs. Any time they picked up a pistol, they checked it twice & then had 1 of the other instructors check it. They were ALWAYS conscious of where the muzzle was pointed & made sure the students were never swept. The example of their actions made a BIG impression on me.

R/fiVe

tx801
December 16, 2003, 10:33 AM
I have been to a few training courses where dynamic entry and things like this were practiced, and training with you're own weapon was the norm. They all used the practice of letting others confirm that weapons are safe for training, and usually used training mags that wiegh as much as fully loaded mags. It may be this instructor carried over these practices without thinking the general public may not used to having real weapons pointed at them.

mec
December 16, 2003, 10:46 AM
"...Geez. Even though it's empty, it's poor courtesy and an poor example for an instructor..."

Exactly. It's poor form and not a good example for new gun handlers. Nevertheless. a gun locked back and inspected by all does not constitute an emergency situation when mishandled. You are not at fault for refraining from issuing a protest. Best practice might be to advise the instructor privately of your valid concerns.

Part of the course deals with cross communication and the dynamics of conflict escalation. We had an incident here where the chl instructor- about ten pounds of law enforcement certification jammed into a five pound bag, laid an unloaded revolver on the table pointed into the classroom. One of the students galloped his testosterone provoking the same sort of response from the instructor.

sturmruger
December 16, 2003, 10:55 AM
Don't every go to a gun show then! All of those muzzles pointed right at you lying on the table would probably give you a heart attack. I was just at the MN Weapon Collectors gun show in St Paul. There were more muzzles flashed around then you could even imagine. I never did get scared. I knew they were all unloaded, and most of them were zip tied. Bottom line is there are times when all of us are going to be on the business end of a muzzle. I don't have a problem with that as long as the guns isn't loaded and it is happening for a specific reason. Such as cleaning, retail display, classroom, or inspection purposes.


I believe in safety, but some people go a little far. I personally woud never point any of my guns in the general direction of any other human being, but if this guy was teaching a class, and had the slide back, realistically what is there to fear??? The gun isn't loaded, the slide is back, and it sounds like he had verified this for everyone. I point a gun a loaded gun at myself everyday when I carry. So far I have lived to tell about it.

El Tejon
December 16, 2003, 11:18 AM
Sturm, the problem is that this behaviour ignores Rules #1 and #2 and subjects others to harm.

Many police training accidents are caused by exactly this unsafe behaviour.

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