Freedom


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ArtP
October 3, 2010, 01:37 AM
I responded to another post, but I think it begs a new thread. I am going to use my response as an opener for discussion. The question was, "why are people against guns". My answer can be found below, which does go a little off-topic. I also edited it for clarity.

The issue in this thread is "freedom". After reading my response, I'd like constructive argument for what I had to say and what our problem is as a society when it comes to freedom.

The reason for the Constitution, in my opinion, is so that a "majority rules" could not undermine a mans basic freedom. At times our freedoms are threatened by a "majority rules" vote. Would you like to be out-legislated because your belief is the minority?

Comment please...

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Admittedly, I did not read every post here. Many were variations of the same theme.

I'd like to answer question 1 with sort of a different spin, and I will rant a little - forgive me. I'll leave the other questions alone as I don't have much to add that hasn't been said.

True freedom means not just my freedom or your freedom to pursue our desires, but the freedom for everyone to practice what they choose. I'm not pointing the finger at any one person, but I see a lot of gun owners who are very passionate about their 2A rights and make a lot of talk about freedom, but when it comes to behaviors or pursuits that are unpopular or activities they don't partake in, they want them outlawed or forbidden. Many times they point to the Bill of Rights or the constitution saying gun ownership is a "right" and other behaviors not covered in any of the founding documents are not. The point is the Constitution and Bill of Rights were written with freedom in mind and if the founding fathers were to debate modern issues, I know they would side with freedom on these issues.

If asked, I'd say we're all pretty lucky the right to arms is even mentioned, or the whole practice would have been outlawed sometime last century.

Some quick examples; gay marriage, drugs, abortion. I am neither gay nor a drug user and I'm not in the market for an abortion, but since I believe in freedom above anything else, I think they ought to be legal. I don't want to debate drugs, but drugs fall into the same argument guns do - that is, neither is harmful by itself. Just as guns don't kill people, neither do drugs.

The point is, anti-gun people don't practice guns as a hobbie and have no interest, therefore their stance is to criminalize them. They simply don't care about the freedoms of others, they want laws written around what suits them, just as some gun owners are ignorant to rights they don't practice. People just don't care about other peoples freedoms. It's all a load of hypocracy.

I'm not speaking of everyone, but far too many people are selfish when it comes to freedom.
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ljnowell
October 3, 2010, 01:43 AM
Yeah, not sure how long this one will live.

X-Rap
October 3, 2010, 01:51 AM
The thing often lost in the Libertarian debate is the freedom of/from all those things that others may want.
I will agree with drug legalization, gay marriage when my right to not hire a loader or have gays eat in my restaurant is recognized, I am all for not having the government involved in my affairs but I think we are all due our right not to have others do things we may not agree with in our own lives.
The right to life should not be infringed unless it is punishment for a crime or defence of inocent life.

ArtP
October 3, 2010, 01:58 AM
The thing often lost in the Libertarian debate is the freedom of all those things that others may want.
I will agree with drug legalization, gay marriage when my right to not hire a loader or have gays eat in my restaurant is recognized, I am all for not having the government involved in my affairs but I think we are all due our right not to have others do things we may not agree with in our own lives.
The right to life should not be infringed unless it is punishment for a crime or defence of inocent life.

But how can you demand your rights while trying to criminalize the rights of others? What makes you and your beliefs special? If you wanted to hang a sign above your establishment laying down your law, I'd be all for it. Just don't lay your law down on my doorstep or anyone else's.

X-Rap
October 3, 2010, 02:07 AM
How am I trying to criminalise anybody's rights? I am just saying that if the gov backs out of our business as they should I want the right to do with my property and livelihood as I wish.
Its much like the smoking laws today, I think that I should be able to have a bar or restaurant and let people smoke or not, my employees should be able to choose to work for me or not knowing the working conditions just as I should be able to drugscreen independently before I let someone climb on a crane or loader.
Do you see my point?

ArtP
October 3, 2010, 02:15 AM
X-Rap - I completely agree with you. This whole business of affirmative action and laws that dictate how, who, why and how treated should be tossed out. The simple reason, beyond your basic right to freedom, is that if you tighten up your requiements too much, you may pay a penaly in the amount of business. That's for you to decide, not the governement.

I guess when it comes down to it, I am Libertarian. To each his own and your fingers out of your neighbors business.

But given the freedom to run your business your way, shouldn't other people be allowed to run their lives their way? And you and me not get in the way? Re: abortion. It's not your life, why not butt out?

X-Rap
October 3, 2010, 02:18 AM
To keep this on a gun path lets say all gun laws are removed from the federal gov. I still may want my own regulations in certain areas that I am responsible. I am saying its my right to regulate my property and what happens to and on it. This is much like most of the states with CC have allowed owners of private property.
The point I'm trying to make is that freedom cuts both ways and the gov is the one that should not impose upon us as citizens, if one doesn't want seatbelts or motorcycle helmets that is fine but it is also fine that the taxpayer shouldn't be on the hook for your med. bills should you have a wreck.

ArtP
October 3, 2010, 02:25 AM
I really do see your point. I've given this a lot of thought. It does cut both ways and there is no easy answer.

The ER can't refuse people, so you pony up proof of medical insurance or wear a helmet. The freedom is in the choice. The law requires only accountability.

But I still can't see cutting into other peoples freedoms. If my gay brother wants to marry a man (he's straight, but sometimes I think he's a faggot!) 2000 miles from you, why do you want to legislate it?

Sunray
October 3, 2010, 02:28 AM
"..."why are people against guns"..." Fear. They believe that what they see on TV and in movies is real.
"...gay marriage..." Only an issue to those who want their ideas to be paramount(Bible belt concern). Who cares? Ditto for abortion. Don't think it should be a form of birth control, but important it isn't.
The drug issue is much like 'Prohibition'. Costs a fortune to fight and encourages organized crime. There's no universal health care Stateside anyway.

X-Rap
October 3, 2010, 02:30 AM
Re: abortion. It's not your life, why not butt out?
Trying to phrase this properly is hard but I will try because I think there is certainly a need for an answer.
I will say it is a matter of responsibility, should one not be held to account if they have a child that gets to their loaded gun and shoots themselves doing severe damage to their brain so that they must be cared for as long as they live? Should that life be simply shut off for convenience? Should the parents not take responsibility for the life they have created or negligently ruined or just left to go on with the irresponsible behavior.
It should be something that is considered for a long time and understood to its fullest extent and then lived with as long as they live, for me I don't want that burden. Do I think the gov should be involved in such things? no not in the funding or promotion either.

X-Rap
October 3, 2010, 02:35 AM
double post

X-Rap
October 3, 2010, 02:37 AM
But I still can't see cutting into other peoples freedoms. If my gay brother wants to marry a man (he's straight, but sometimes I think he's a faggot!) 2000 miles from you, why do you want to legislate it?
I don't want to legislate it I just want to be able to be away from it if I choose on my own property or place of business, same as if I'm anti gun, I should be able to make it a condition of the lease that no one can have a gun on my premises. the gay or gun owner can regulate their own as well.
The same should go with the states, some may not be as friendly as others but within the constraints of the Constitution the citizens of a given state should be able to run it as they wish.

ArtP
October 3, 2010, 02:43 AM
Well buddy (I mean that), here's the problem with abortion (or lack of)...

It unfairly sticks women with the burden of the baby. I have so much more to add to that - volumes. Do I need to remind you of all the creepy men that run away?

I suppose I do...

Women are unfairly burdened with carrying children in our society as the men run off and do "whatever". It's not just about abortion, it's about does a womean want to spend a year of her life nurturing a fetus? And then perhaps a lifetime? I case anyone forgot - a life's long friggin time to spend!

There are a multitude of issues we can both raise.

Would you like to spend a year with a "faggot" in your belly knowing you were raped by a HOMO? Would you like your governement to FORCE you to do WHAT THEY SAY?

or would you rather have the choice?

All of these pro-life men are not just demanding no abortion - they're demanding women take a year off their life - parhaps more - and forcing them to change their plans. Perhaps a lifetime!

I'm a flippin man - I'd contest anything that said I couldn't do WHAT I WANT. I'd kick and scream - and I'd blaze my GUNS and so would you. I'd go down in a blaze of... I'd stick by my principles. My pricniples are that I do as I want.

Are you saying you want women to adhere to some other principle you won't? I know what I want.. I want the choice to decide without my government intervening. Do you want the governement to intervene with your pregnency? Pitty on you for forcing women. Shame on you.

Men that demand women live to a different standard than their own are the most pathetic hypocrits and should die a death of humiliation and poverty. And while they're at it devoting their exististance to slaving for ungrateful children who will repeat the cycle.

It's all about your religion for you, huh?

I never wanted this to be about abortion....

This was about freedom.

Freedom trumps all.

Boberama
October 3, 2010, 04:43 AM
I'm a CONSERVATIVE libertarian.

The libertarian only applies to the CONSERVATIVE part.

Nuff said.

ArtP
October 3, 2010, 04:45 AM
Nuff said.

Pardon me. But you said nothing. Your real comment are welcome.

Boberama
October 3, 2010, 05:26 AM
I have my own set of beliefs, and I won't share my thoughts on any specifics.
This is not a political forum.

And I don't like finding insults in my inbox.

Sgt_R
October 3, 2010, 05:39 AM
I don't want to legislate it I just want to be able to be away from it if I choose on my own property or place of business, same as if I'm anti gun, I should be able to make it a condition of the lease that no one can have a gun on my premises. the gay or gun owner can regulate their own as well.

So, to pose the obvious question, do you believe that you should have the right to discriminate based on skin color, gender, language, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, etc.? What about hair and eye color? Height and weight?

Where do you draw the line, and who gets to make that decision?

R

ArtP
October 3, 2010, 05:41 AM
I have my own set of beliefs, and I won't share my thoughts on any specifics.
This is not a political forum.

And I don't like finding insults in my inbox.

As I understand it, this is a free (eh freedom) place to post.

If you comment, and as you did without any sense, you're subject to ridicule.

If you got a position or comment that can be deciphered, the floors yours.

(get someone to hold your purse while you man up, Sally)

JShirley
October 3, 2010, 05:50 AM
...and, thanks for the sexism. It's a nice ending to an OT thread.

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