Shocked By CCH Holders Yesterday


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MikeNice
October 5, 2010, 11:00 AM
I was listening to talk radio yesterday and became rather shocked. The show was about Virginia eliminating the ban on carrying in “bars.” It was actually an elimination of carrying in places that sell alcohol for consumption on premises. Yet everybody bit the bait. They allowed the discussion to become almost solely about guns in bars.

What really surprised me where the number of professed CCH permitees calling to say “guns and alcohol don’t mix.” There were several CCH permit holders saying, “I don’t see the point in having a gun in a bar, guns and alcohol don’t mix.” I don’t think one person said anything about the likely hood of getting attacked by some one and needing defense. They bought right in to the host’s assertion that a gun in a bar is automatically a bad idea.

I most admit that it started off with a hand full of calls supporting allowing carry. However, they were talking about the situation as “legislating morality.” Nobody brought up the fact that it was illegal to carry concealed if you have even one drink until nearly the end. There was also only one guy that brought up the fact that the law restricts restaurants as well. Even then he didn’t make a great argument.

I was just shocked that no one really stood up and made a strong argument for repealing the law. Nobody made a point that leaving a loaded gun in the car makes it easier for bad guys to get your gun. Nobody really made a point that a lot of incidents happen in the parking lot.

Are CCH holders really so brain washed that they believe that they can not be trusted? Is your average CCH holder really that bad at debating the validity of their rights? Do we need an education campaign for CCH holders?

I was shocked and disappointed by the CCH holders listening yesterday. I kept trying to call in and present my thoughts. However, the lines stayed busy almost the whole time. When I did finally get through I was informed there wasn't enough time. I was told to call back another time.

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M-Cameron
October 5, 2010, 11:04 AM
What really surprised me where the number of professed CCH permitees calling to say “guns and alcohol don’t mix.”

My guess would be some clever Antis took advantage of radio anonymity.

longhair75
October 5, 2010, 11:34 AM
I certainly know when I have had enough to drink that my judgment is impaired, and have no problem locking my pistol up until I get home. In Nebraska, it is still unlawful to carry your concealed weapon into an establishment that derives more than 50% of its income from alcohol sales. The legal limit for driving with alcohol in your system is .08, but the legal limit for carrying a concealed firearm is 0.0. This may be taking this zero tolerance too far, but it is the law. Lobby to change the law if you are not in agreement, but we must abide by it while it stands. What separates us from the bad guys is that we remain law abiding citizens.

doc2rn
October 5, 2010, 11:43 AM
I agree alcohol and guns should never come together. If your the designated driver and not drinking I see nothing wrong with being armed.

lwknight
October 5, 2010, 11:50 AM
With the statement regarding guns and alcohol not mixing , the ops post leads me to believe that they re not talking about going to the local bar just for a hamburger and coca cola.
We all know that drinking and driving do not mix so why would drinking and weapons be any different.
If a bar is rough enough that you feel you must be armed there , maybe you should not even be there in the first place.

General Geoff
October 5, 2010, 11:52 AM
I agree alcohol and guns should never come together.

I personally never drink (can't stand alcohol), and if I did I probably wouldn't carry when doing so at a bar. However, I don't think it's the government's responsibility to tell people whether they can or can't have a drink while carrying.

Jorg Nysgerrig
October 5, 2010, 11:55 AM
My guess would be some clever Antis took advantage of radio anonymity.

Apparently you've missed the dozens of posts on this very forum by the teetotaling masses decry those who would even consider imbibing the devil's drink, gun or no gun. Despite the fact they insist that owning a gun doesn't magically turn you into some kind of bloodthirsty vigilante, a mere glass of wine with dinner leads to a dark path of drunkenness that will surely destroy the very fabric of this nation. Sure, there are studies that indicate being drowsy results in a similar level of impairment, but no one seems to suggest locking up the guns when one is tired.

Bubbles
October 5, 2010, 12:17 PM
When debating this you have to understand both VA's concealed carry laws, and the laws regulating establishments that serve alcohol for on-premises consumption. I'd bet that none of these facts were discussed during the radio program:

First, Virginia doesn't have "bars" like you'd find in the rest of the country. Any establishment with a liquor license (LL) must derive over 50% of its gross receipts from the sale of food.

Second, prior to "shall-issue" being passed in the mid-90's, there were no prohibitions at all on carrying a firearm, whether open or concealed, into an establishment with a LL. Concealed carry was prohibited as a bone thrown to the anti's/moderates in exchange for shall-issue CHL's.

Third, there few if any "CUI" incidents even prior to 1995 by permit-holders.

Fourth, the prohibition that was passed only applied to concealed carry; open carry in an establishment with a LL remained legal, and was practiced.

Fifth, CUI (carry under the influence) is illegal.

GimpyLeg
October 5, 2010, 12:21 PM
We've been through all of this in TN recently. Everyone wants to make the statement that "guns and alcohol don't mix". I doubt there are few who do think that they do mix. However, in TN, this law included Applebees, Outback, Chili's, and the rest of the eateries that also serve mixed drinks for consumption on premisis. TN's law change was meant to allow a CP holder to sit down and enjoy a meal at an establishment that also serves drink without having to disarm.

When the original law passed, the antis went nuts. They sued, they placed ads, they put up billboards, said TN would be a 'wild west' with shootouts nightly and blood flowing in the streets. The law was struck down for vagueness as TN does not have "bars" and law abiding citizens couldn't tell if a business made most of it's money from eatin' or drinkin'.

Round two of the law clarified little, but was compromised by allowing ghostbuster signs to be placed in establishments that didn't want CP holder business (the original law allowed for posting, but was specific on what the sign looked like).

My point is that the REAL issue to me is that I am responsible for me. The TN law says I cannot be under the influence of anything if I am packing. You, mister resturant owner, are not responsible to police me of this. Nor am I going to turn over to you the responsibility for my safety and protection. Again, I am responsible for me. Place your ghostbuster signs all you want. I will either find someone else to spend my time and money, or you wont know the difference.

Deanimator
October 5, 2010, 12:23 PM
I like to drink.
I like to carry a gun.

I NEVER do both at the same time.

Hopefully, if Kasich isn't elected governor and vetoes it, next year Ohio will allow me to eat in a decent restaurant with a liquor license, and NOT drink.

Yo Mama
October 5, 2010, 12:25 PM
We have discussed this before in THR, and you have 2 sets of folks: those that have no problem with it, and those who do.

My sentiment is to leave me alone as I'm not worried that when I drink I'm a danger to anything other than my bed and pillow.

It worries me that people for RTKBA believe that once you decide to drink, that you should be disarmed and a target. It would be more usefull to know your own limits, and not affect others rights.

MikeNice
October 5, 2010, 12:28 PM
If a bar is rough enough that you feel you must be armed there , maybe you should not even be there in the first place.


This is the thing that drives me insane about gun owners and CCH permitees. I mean you could say the same thing about the neighborhood you live in. You could say the same thing about the street you drive down to get some where. You could use that logic to eventually just say you never need a gun. Just avoid any place you feel you need one.

How many times have we heard, "this is such a nice place I can't believe it happened here?" How many times have we heard, "he was such a nice guy, everybody loved him?"

Just a month or two ago a nearby town had two people get shot in the parking lot of a Red Lobster. The neighborhood is not a bad neighborhood. The place is pretty much surrounded by middle and upper middle class homes. It isn't exactly the type of place a person would usually worry about a shooting. Yet it happened.

Since Red Lobster serves alcohol, in most states, a person could not carry legally.

I agree with the saying that guns and alcohol don't mix. However, I don't believe that means a CCH permitee should be denied the right to go somewhere because alcohol is present. Being in a room with alcohol doesn't mean you are going to get a contact buzz. It doesn't mean that you suddenly become less responsible than you were for the many years before you got a CCH permit.

There is a law that covers alcohol and CCH permits in NC. It says if you get caught with any alcohol in your system while carrying you get your permit yanked. You can also serve up to 12 months in jail. Since CCH permit holders, in NC, have proven that they aren't a felon, I think they can be trusted not to commit a felony now and put everybody at risk.

CCH permit holders have been taught the law and proper escelation of force. You either trust them to use this knowledge properly or you don't.

DasFriek
October 5, 2010, 12:33 PM
I feel that CHL holders should be able to carry anyplace alcohol is present as long as they aren't drinking.
But i also feel it increases the likley hood of having to use his weapon, Even if he is 100% dry. Maybe i grew up drinking in some not so not so great places.

I will say one thing ever since i got my CHL over 1 year ago i would say ive had less than 5 drinks over the last year. I dont drink at home since i stay with my ailing parents and help take care of them and my mom is strongly against alcohol in her house, Except what i sneak in for cooking with. Chili MUST have good Pale Ale in it.

I know its off subject but actually getting my permit has had a large impact on my drinking, And not because i felt a law said i cant. But because i just didn't want it.

mbogo
October 5, 2010, 12:39 PM
If drinking and driving are bad, why do so many bars have parking lots?



It's because RESPONSIBLE people know their limitations. No law will ever prevent an irresponsible person from hurting themselves or others.

mbogo

Yo Mama
October 5, 2010, 12:43 PM
I feel that CHL holders should be able to carry anyplace alcohol is present as long as they aren't drinking.


No, I changed it for you: I feel that I should be able to carry anyplace alcohol is present as long as I aren't drinking.

Now that's better see, you're not making a judgement about my life now. :)

BTW, sorry to hear about your folks, and I hope for a bright future ahead for you.

Double Naught Spy
October 5, 2010, 12:46 PM
I am completely fine with guns in bars. I am probably fine with not being allowed to drink if you are carrying. I rarely drink and have been a designated driver on more than one occasion and I can't see any reason why as a non-drinking patron that I should not be allowed to be armed simply because I am in a location where alcohol is served.

If a bar is rough enough that you feel you must be armed there , maybe you should not even be there in the first place.

Geez, now I can't go home, drive in my car, or be any other place for that matter.

It worries me that people for RTKBA believe that once you decide to drink, that you should be disarmed and a target.

It worries me that so many gun owners think they are a target if they are disarmed. Even worse, many think they are defenseless if they are disarmed.

SaxonPig
October 5, 2010, 01:28 PM
You can legally drive a car with a blood alcohol of .007 so why not carry a gun? When I lived in UT the law for packing matched that for driving. If you were legal to drive you were legal to carry. Sounds reasonable to me. Does one or two drinks make me OK to drive a car but too dangerous with a gun?

heeler
October 5, 2010, 01:49 PM
What Saxon brings up is a situation I face in Texas.
The drunk standard here is .008.
The book on CHL reads you cant be drunk and carry.
But the CHL class I was in the instructor said even though that may be technically correct he claims it's up to the officers discretion as there is no legal limit on drinking and carrying.
I drink at home and never go to bars and if I have consumed more than two drinks over a period of a couple of hours and have to leave home the pistol stays home because I dont want to get caught up in some legal BS.

Cosmoline
October 5, 2010, 01:51 PM
People view alcohol differently. I've noticed a fair number of gun folks have a more traditional American relationship with alcohol. That is, they view it as something you use to get drunk. The people who think of alcoholic drinks as a food do tend to be on the left side of the spectrum due to socio-economic factors (they are more likely to live in large coastal cities, more likely to have advanced degrees, more likely to have drunk micro-brews instead of schlock stuff, etc.)

So as a result it wouldn't surprise me if a majority of gun owners and people who carry are a bit fanatical when it comes to mixing guns and alcohol. I've seen that on threads even in this forum. Though I think attitudes are slowly changing as the old post-prohibition drinking culture dies off.

Onward Allusion
October 5, 2010, 01:57 PM
Carrying While Intoxicated don't mix. Hell, you could be having dinner in a bar and what - you can't be carrying???

MikeNice (http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=127781)
Shocked By CCH Holders Yesterday

Mudinyeri
October 5, 2010, 01:58 PM
Over the years, I've been in plenty of bars. In my younger days, I frequently got into some sort of fracas in those bars. Now that I'm in my late 40's I rarely find myself interested in going to a true bar (a place that serves little, if any, food but serves beer, wine and hard alcohol).

My guess would be that if you looked at the statistical probability of getting into a fight of some sort the location with the highest probability would be bars. I have no empirical data to back this up, but I've never gotten into a fight at a church, library, hospital, grocery store ... you get the idea.

So ... if the probability of getting into some sort of scrape is highest at a bar AND you want to avoid having to shoot someone ... what would the prudent person do?

Gouranga
October 5, 2010, 01:59 PM
f a bar is rough enough that you feel you must be armed there , maybe you should not even be there in the first place.

I also feel that bad things tend to happen in places where "that type of thing never happens". Which is why i carry everywhere.

I don't drink and drive, I don't drink and carry. Personally, I would not want my judgement to be called into question doing either because my BAC was over 0.0. A civil attorney will take you to the cleaners doing either should anything happen. I don't care if you protecting yourself from a blood soaked ax murderer who just killed a bus load of nuns.

That's me though. Would i deny your right, well I would say, your right to carry while drinking would be something I would be on the fence with. I would not think anyone has 1 beer while carrying becomes a danger to society, the guy with 12 does, it is that huge gray area in between that I cannot make up my mind on. Though I will say this, if someone if able to legally drive a car, I cannot think they are too impaired to handle a firearm...

VegasAR15
October 5, 2010, 02:06 PM
Guess I'm just lucky in Nevada. I can be drunker with a gun than I can with a car. Drunk driving is .08, but I can be .1 while conceil carrying. Not that I would do that, but it does mean that I can go to a restaurant that serves alcohol with no problems.

HOOfan_1
October 5, 2010, 02:09 PM
First, Virginia doesn't have "bars" like you'd find in the rest of the country. Any establishment with a liquor license (LL) must derive over 50% of its gross receipts from the sale of food.


Fourth, the prohibition that was passed only applied to concealed carry; open carry in an establishment with a LL remained legal, and was practiced.


Ding ding ding....this meant no CCW even if you were just going to eat dinner with your family at Outback....or any other restaurant which sells alcohol...which is basically anything that isn't fast food...and even some that are.

Guillermo
October 5, 2010, 02:13 PM
I don't think it's the government's responsibility to tell people whether they can or can't have a drink while carrying.

I concur...being intoxicated in public is illegal in most states so I really don't see the problem.

No more laws...we have too many already.

MikeNice
October 5, 2010, 02:15 PM
Hell, you could be having dinner in a bar and what - you can't be carrying???

Well in NC you could be having dinner at Pizza Hut (they serve beer) and not be able to carry. In many places it is any place that sells for consumption on premises.


So ... if the probability of getting into some sort of scrape is highest at a bar AND you want to avoid having to shoot someone ... what would the prudent person do?


Well, first you try to retreat if possible. Then you have to follow the proper escelation of force. Rude words and threatening gestures do not constitute the need for lethal force. So, you do what you would do any where else. Your ability to walk away is not hampered by being at a bar.

What most people are missing though is that this extends past bars. If you want to take the kids to a movie and dinner, you better go to Cracker Barell or McDonalds. Pizza Hut, Applebee's, TGI Friday, Fudrucker's, Red Robin, and most other establishment's serve beer as well as food. That means leaving your gun at home or in the car.

Why should a CCH permit holder be denied the right to be in a room where alcohol is present? Is it because of other people's actions? Why should the CCH holder's life time of good behavior be negated because of somebody else's lack of impulse control?

General Geoff
October 5, 2010, 02:15 PM
That's me though. Would i deny your right, well I would say, your right to carry while drinking would be something I would be on the fence with. I would not think anyone has 1 beer while carrying becomes a danger to society, the guy with 12 does, it is that huge gray area in between that I cannot make up my mind on. Though I will say this, if someone if able to legally drive a car, I cannot think they are too impaired to handle a firearm...

Here's the problem with comparing drunk driving to drunk carrying.

Driving is an inherently risky and dangerous activity which requires constant attention to prevent massive injury or death. Carrying is *not* inherently risky nor dangerous; shooting is, but anyone who regularly carries, knows that shooting is a last resort to protect life and limb from an adversary intent on serious bodily harm.

Carrying a gun is far closer to carrying car keys than actually driving. And while I've heard of people confiscating car keys before or during a night of expected drunkenness, I myself find that concept ridiculous.

Sam1911
October 5, 2010, 02:16 PM
Apparently you've missed the dozens of posts on this very forum by the teetotaling masses decry those who would even consider imbibing the devil's drink, gun or no gun.

Amen. We've all but come to blows over this on more than a few occasions. Real knock-down-drag-out threads going to many, many pages.

It is disappointing but it shouldn't be shocking.

In PA it has been legal to carry in bars -- and to drink while carrying (we have NO "intoxicated" limit associated with possessing a weapon -- though we do have a "Hunting While Intoxicated" charge...:)) -- for several decades.

No blood in the streets. No shootouts between otherwise law-abiding concealed firearms carriers who got in their cups and became raging killers.

It just doesn't happen.

This is one of those issues that simply must be true because everyone thinks it's true, and the fact that it isn't true really isn't all that important. :rolleyes:

There's a great .sig line around here that says, "A conclusion is a convenient place to stop thinking."

In the case of "Guns and Booze don't mix!" I'd counter, "A popular truism is a convenient reason not to even START thinking."

KBintheSLC
October 5, 2010, 02:29 PM
The legal limit for guns should be the same as it is for cars. Afterall, far more people die as a result of the misuse of cars than from the misuse of guns. Yet ironically, almost every bar has a parking lot outside.

I say carry in the bar and have a beer if you want, but if you decide to really drink, just leave the gun at home. That is the law in UT and we never had much trouble with it in the 3 decades I lived there. It's called personal accountability... letting people be responsible for their own actions rather than having the law predetermine our every move.

fireside44
October 5, 2010, 02:36 PM
The legal limit for guns should be the same as it is for cars.

No, there should be no legal limit.

Why a gun owner would agree to more regulations against gun owners is beyond me, but just like some support parts of the GCA, these people are out there and damage the gun rights movement.

Yo Mama
October 5, 2010, 02:42 PM
It worries me that so many gun owners think they are a target if they are disarmed. Even worse, many think they are defenseless if they are disarmed.


I'm 145 pounds, and 6ft tall. That makes me a pretty skinny dude. I do feel less able to defend myself without a gun.

Why should it worry you that I think I'm a target, and have choosen to carry a gun?

We are all targets, if you are unarmed you are now a defenseless target.

BHP FAN
October 5, 2010, 02:55 PM
I don't drink, but I do go to Pizza Hut...So if I'm disarmed and get jumped in the parking lot what good has the stupid ''alcohol and guns don't mix'' crowd done me?

Guillermo
October 5, 2010, 03:04 PM
"A popular truism is a convenient reason not to even START thinking."

I am going to steal that one

SuperNaut
October 5, 2010, 03:07 PM
Generally I'm against special laws for stuff that is already illegal. Murder is illegal, therefore this "issue" is moot.

I know that there are people who believe that there is a magical number of laws that need to be written in order for people to behave; I don't understand those people, but I know they exist.

kayak-man
October 5, 2010, 03:13 PM
+1 General Geoff

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 5, 2010, 06:13 PM
No, there should be no legal limit.

Why a gun owner would agree to more regulations against gun owners is beyond me, but just like some support parts of the GCA, these people are out there and damage the gun rights movement

So you believe that it is all well and fine for Joe Blow to be staggering drunk and armed? Sorry but that is sheer stupidity period. My take on this is if you are going to drink ANYTHING don't carry. Same take for driving as well. Alcohol is a moral inhibitor as well as a physical inhibitor as well. I don't agree with the not able to carry in a bar/restaurant but I do full well believe in limiting alcohol and carry. Use simple logic, if you are going to drink, don't freaking carry a damn gun. I don't want my life nor that of my kids put in jeopardy because you "think" you are not intoxicated. I don't know how many idiots I see all the time staggering around "thinking" they are "fine" and just because you have been "trained" for your CCW does not in ANY way make you suddenly impervious to the affects of alcohol. I have been trained since I could walk on how to handle firearms and more than likely have better training than 99% of the common public and I STILL refuse to carry if I am drinking period. If you feel like you need to be armed to feel "protected" then make the choice to not drink! Sorry but if it comes to your "rights" verses the life of my child because your stupid drunk self couldn't hold proper aim then your rights can be damned.

jeepguy
October 5, 2010, 06:30 PM
its funny how people see things, here in ohio this bill is stalled. but uninformed people go off only hearing what they want to hear or fear. my dad who is a leo & pro carry didn't like it because he thought it ment bars & night clubs. i informed him that it was the right to carry in a resaurant that has a class d liquor license, olive garden, red lobster etc. and is more of a resaurant then bar. so if a couple want to go to dinner at the olive garden they can't carry & therefore give up their right to best defend themselves. i think this is ridicolus and has to be changed. regardless of where one stands on the issue of consumption these bills needs to pass. then we can debate the consumption issues around them, but people shouldn't become targets because they go out to eat.

Sam1911
October 5, 2010, 06:37 PM
So you believe that it is all well and fine for Joe Blow to be staggering drunk and armed? Sorry but that is sheer stupidity period.

Gonna need a few laws passed to keep us on the straight-and-narrow, eh? I like laws, they make me feel all warm and safe! ... :rolleyes:

Seriously, though... we already have laws to make murder, homicide, unlawful discharge of a weapon, reckless endangerment, and any number of other bad acts illegal. Let's make a few more laws to make it illegal to ... er... not do those things but do other things that really aren't violent or harmful in any way but ... you know ... might lead to... badder stuff. Badder stuff that would already be completely unlawful but, hey, now we can lock people up for a few more things! Goody!

As I said before, we've got several decades for this problem to materialize here in PA where you can be drunk and armed and not violating our laws. You are obviously heavily invested in the idea that this is a socially untenable situation. Do you expect that we're going to see a rash of otherwise legally armed drunks killing folks sometime soon?

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 5, 2010, 07:03 PM
No Sam not "socially untenable" just flat out stupid period. You have obviously led a life to where you have not been exposed to the "problems" of alcohol. Ever wonder where the old saying "Ply her with drink" comes from? People will do things they "normally" would not do while not drinking. It is a VASTLY proven fact! I am glad PA has not suffered to date from this (though I highly doubt that it hasn't). I can not seem to understand how anyone with a single grain of common sense can't grasp the fact that carrying while drinking is sheer stupidity. I grew up with an alcoholic father and experienced first hand the effect that alcohol had on a "normally" peaceful well adjusted man. Jekyll and Hyde comes to mind. Granted not everyone is affected this way but you can not sit here and tell me that the vast majority of peoples judgement is not seriously impaired by alcohol.

A simple easy fix is to have a law set up to make it illegal to carry while drinking. No law will make the unlawful suddenly do right no, BUT it will make a law abiding citizen keep from making a stupid mistake while drinking. It will make them think, "ok I am going to be drinking tonight so I won't carry" thereby they won't be in the position of making a possibly life changing mistake because they drank a little more than they thought and it affected them a little more than they thought it would and made a deadly mistake! You may not agree with this line of thinking and I really don't care if you do. But again I will say it, Alcohol and carrying a firearm is ignorant period and there is no reason that a law limiting this stupidity shouldn't be enacted.

Again I will say that I do feel carrying in an establishment that serves would be all well and fine as long as that individual is not drinking.

Sam1911
October 5, 2010, 08:26 PM
It is a VASTLY proven fact! I am glad PA has not suffered to date from this (though I highly doubt that it hasn't).So show me. Where are there even CALLS FROM THE OPPOSITION for this to be an issue here? Surely if this is a problem worthy of specific laws against it, our opposition which hates gun rights to begin with, must have this at the very TOP of their agenda, right? After all, it would be so easy to prove the social harm begin done every day... right?

"Alcohol and carrying a firearm may very well be ignorant for you but there is no reason that a law limiting this stupidity needs to be enacted."

...as long as that individual is not drinking So if I'm sitting in a restaurant with my family having a beer with dinner, I should be a criminal? Punish all because of the bad behavior of a few. Where have I heard that before?

M-Cameron
October 5, 2010, 08:36 PM
why is it that you people are assuming that just because you are in a bar having a drink....that you are somehow going to end up a drunken mess......

honestly.....if you are the type of person that drinks to get drunk........you probably arent mature enough to have a concealed weapon......

Double Naught Spy
October 5, 2010, 08:56 PM
What Saxon brings up is a situation I face in Texas.
The drunk standard here is .008.
The book on CHL reads you cant be drunk and carry.
But the CHL class I was in the instructor said even though that may be technically correct he claims it's up to the officers discretion as there is no legal limit on drinking and carrying.
I drink at home and never go to bars and if I have consumed more than two drinks over a period of a couple of hours and have to leave home the pistol stays home because I dont want to get caught up in some legal BS.

heeler, you might wish to review the law a little closer. It does not say you can't carry if you are drunk.

Texas Penal Code
Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER

(d) A license holder commits an offense if, while intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed.

The word is "intoxicated." What does intoxicated mean?
"Intoxication" under Texas law means:

(A) not having the normal use of [one’s] mental faculties by reason of the introduction of alcohol, a controlled substance, a drug, a dangerous drug, a combination of two or more of those substances, or any other substance into the body; or
(B) not having the normal use of [one’s] physical faculties by reason of the introduction of alcohol, a controlled substance, a drug, a dangerous drug, a combination of two or more of those substances, or any other substance into the body; or

(C) [a person] having an alcohol concentration of 0.08 or more.

It should be noted, that theoretically the prosecutor only needs to prove one of the three ways in order to obtain a conviction. For example, if the jury believes the person has lost their physical faculties, although they have not lost their mental faculties and there is no blood or breath test, theoretically that person could be found guilty. That is not always the case, generally, if the evidence only shows the loss of either the mental or physical faculties, and not both, there is usually a logical explanation for that loss and the result should be they are not intoxicated.

So being "drunk" would disqualify you from carrying, but you likely would be disqualified from carrying long before you are actually drunk.

Coolbreeze8804
October 5, 2010, 09:15 PM
Wow. really?
1. I am licensed to carry a concealed weapon. (training)
2. I've been an adult aged legal drinker for many decades. (maturity)
3. I have never shot anybody that didn't need shooting. (ex-military ) (Values and respect for life and law)
4. I have never drunk enough to cause me to do something stupid. (common sense)
5. I have never done something stupid with a gun., drinking or not. (more common sense)
6. I am still a free, registered voter, citizen of America. Aren't I allowed to go about my life in an unfettered manner as long as I don't trample on the rights of others and behave within the accepted mores of society? (the benefits reaped of serving my nation)

Why is someone legislating rules based on the fact that I "might" act like an idiot if I am allowed to defend myself while engaged in adult activities? (Reasonable and legal drinking) The whole theory lacks logic. The assumption should be:
If you are an adult, act like it.
If you can't act like it, you should be removed from society because you simply don't fit in.

end of rant... sorry...

VinnAY
October 5, 2010, 10:07 PM
I think most of you miss the point, you probably right state what YOU think about it and how YOU feel/think/whatever about the subject of guns and alcohol. But problem is, for everyone 1 of us there's XX of ID10T's out there that can't act responsibly.
Me personally I love to drink, I do it at home or at close friends homes in small groups...it's safe. For me. And I love guns. (Obviously). Drinking and driving don't mix, we have laws because people are just plain stupid and as a society we think that we should have laws so Darwin can be impeded in removing them from the population. Drinking and guns don't mix either. Everyone of us responsible people knows this. I could post a picture of me firing a gun with my R hand, and a beer in the L and I'd get not only flamed, but napalmed off the forum.
So I can't fathom why anyone thinks that a gun in a bar should be a lawful thing. I just can't get there.
I think too many folks hear anything resembling gun restrictions or gun control and just stop thinking and only react.

Coolbreeze8804
October 5, 2010, 10:16 PM
Nah, I'm just a misty eyed idealist who thinks we should be responsible for our own ACTIONS, and pay the price for any and all misrecreance. I don't want to have to limit my proper, legal, and safe behaviour because of someone elses poor, unsafe behaviour. I think THEIR poor behaviour should be eliminated, not MY appropriate behaviour limited.

And yes, I know it's not resonable to expect, but it really is what I want to happen. I just haven't figured out how to arrange it yet. (Rest assured, when I get it sussed out, i'll share it with everybody!)

REAPER4206969
October 5, 2010, 10:33 PM
A simple easy fix is to have a law set up to make it illegal to carry while drinking. No law will make the unlawful suddenly do right no, BUT it will make a law abiding citizen keep from making a stupid mistake while drinking.

It will make them think, "ok I am going to be drinking tonight so I won't carry" thereby they won't be in the position of making a possibly life changing mistake because they drank a little more than they thought and it affected them a little more than they thought it would and made a deadly mistake!
In many states it's perfectly legal to consume alcohol while carrying. Post one news story where a CCWer caused murder and mayhem because of drinking while carrying.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 5, 2010, 11:32 PM
In many states it's perfectly legal to consume alcohol while carrying. Post one news story where a CCWer caused murder and mayhem because of drinking while carrying.

How about you simply google the term "Statistics for CCW carriers firing while intoxicated". I for one am not sure that there are actual "studies" on this subject but I did find a site where such news stories are posted. Granted it is the dreaded Brady Bunch, but there are MANY instances of this idiocy posted on it. It seems that it is NOT an uncommon thing to happen and only hardens my stand on this subject.

Reaper, fact is there are too damn many news stories on it to pick just one my friend. Simple fact is, if you are drinking, don't carry a damn gun. As I stated already, Having that CCW does not make you impervious to the affects of alcohol. I see cops do retarded things (off duty) while drinking and they have much more "training" than your average CCW carrier. Had one, several years ago, draw down on a bouncer friend of mine because he was throwing his drunken, beligerant friend out for feeling up a ladies boobs. Fortunately I was right beside the moron and was able to disarm the fool before he pulled the trigger. They were both 3 sheets full sail hammered. You want to tell me that this should be allowed? Like Vinnay said, Some of you guys see anything that even remotely smells like any form of gun control and your brain instantly freezes and allows no form of rational intelligent thought to pass through it. I've seen way too many fools drinking to feel this should be a good idea. Sorry but I enjoy my life and the life of my children to care to damn much weather or not YOU feel all butthurt because an INTELLIGENT law requiring you to disarm while drinking should be enacted. Carry anywhere you wish, don't mind that at all, fully agree with it, but do NOT carry while under the influence of anything. My life and the life of my children thank you for making an intelligent choice.

longhair75
October 5, 2010, 11:43 PM
I agree with our friend Freedom_fighter_in_IL

I know when my judgment is impaired. I know when I have had too much to drink. To be perfectly honest about this, it is a real good thing that I am not on the road carrying my handgun right now.

Bottom line: Alcohol and firearms do not mix, nor should they.

lwknight
October 6, 2010, 12:02 AM
Regarding my earlier comment : " If its a rough enough bar that you feel the need to be armed, you might not should be there in the first place"

We were not talking about guns and "UH" drink as in liken to dinner at Applebies.
You do not have much choice as to which road you take home or to the store and you should feel safe to shop whatever store you choose.

The OPs' allusion was to going out drinking. There are places where you double check to be sure you have your gun. Those are the places where you had best stay out of and doubly should not be drinking there. You know the type. Little purple barn looking place behind the truck stop on I-10. A stranger might get out with his skin if he is not drinking and getting roudy.

Now if you go there to get your daughter away from her boyfriend or you are a LEO , then you sure had better not be unarmed but you sure had best not be drinking either.

84B20
October 6, 2010, 12:02 AM
I've got a question. What do most LEO's do with their firearms after shift if they go to a bar (rhetorical)? Do they not drink or leave the gun in their car? If they do carry in bars, they must be super human to resist using it after a few drinks. I guess the rest of us just can't be trusted. :(

MikeNice
October 6, 2010, 12:25 AM
Nearly everybody here is falling in to the same trap the radio host set. You are all arguing about whether it is okay to drink while carrying. That is not the point. In many places the law allready makes that a no go or regulates it just like drunk driving.

It isn't about being able to go yuck it up while carrying your gun. It is about being able to visit the local sports bar and watch a game with friends. It is about being able to go to Olive Garden or run in to Pizza Hut to grab a pizza.

Here is a scenario I was thinking about when I heard this discussion on the radio:

Your kid brings home their report card. You are suprised that they have brought their grades up and want to take them out for pizza. Well you can not go to Pizza Hut because they serve beer. You think about Chuck E. Cheese,but they serve beer. You look around and realize that all of the pizza places in your town serve either beer or wine. So you think about taking them out for burgers. You realize the only place serving burgers and no beer is fast food.

What are your choices? You can order in, you can eat McDonalds, you can lock your gun in the car, or you can leave it at home. Locking it in your car is maybe worse than leaving it at home. Which one is worse is open to debate. Either way it isn't doing you a bit of good.

Now I am not a drinker. Don't get me wrong, at 21 I tried to pickle my liver several times. I just have lost the taste for drinking. However, I still love to catch a good blues show at some local bars. Most of the bars are in questionable areas, or require parking in very poorly lit areas. I do not feel like I should have to pick between protection and enjoying good music.

Why should I be forced to walk through dark alleys and parking lots without that layer of protection? I have never been in trouble, I try to avoid danger, I pay my taxes, and I try to do no harm to any man or animal that doesn't provoke the response.

CCH holders have tended to be very good at avoiding crimes that cause them to lose their permits. Between 10/1/1987 and 9/30/2010 Florida issued 1,858,018 permits. During the same time period they only revoked 5,102 permits for crimes after issuance. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to be a 0.0027% revocation rate due to crimes. Now that isn't alcohol crimes, but general crimes.

If you ask me that makes it seem like most CCH permit holders are safe and mature enough to make smart decisions. They don't seem like the type to let a bar make them a monster. It also doesn't seem like they are going to start drinking and carrying if the law says no drinking while carrying.

Can anybody tell me why I should be forced to suffer for the potential (and very barely potential) misdeeds of someone else?

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

Edit to add:
During the above mentione thirteen year period, in Florida, only 168 licenses were revoked because the CCH permit holder used a gun in a crime. The percentage is so low I'm not even going to try to figure it out. Just think about how miniscule that number is when trying to justify limiting a CCH holder's right to the fullest extent of self defense.

lwknight
October 6, 2010, 12:27 AM
A couple of drinks at the local watering hole after work is not the same as a drunk with a gun. A responsible person should not be getting drunk while armed.

Mike , your post came in during my typing.
If whoever is not drinking then they should be able to carry where ever they please.

blitzen
October 6, 2010, 12:46 AM
I like to drink and at times I drink a lot. I also like to shoot and I shoot a lot and very often, however, When I pop the top off that first beer the guns are put away. I carry 99% of the time but that 1% of the time I choose to go out unarmed with the intention of having a few it is a choice I make. Alcohol and guns do not mix for anyone at any age. Anyone who thinks they do is asking for a whole lot of trouble.

MikeNice
October 6, 2010, 01:36 AM
We were not talking about guns and "UH" drink as in liken to dinner at Applebies.
You do not have much choice as to which road you take home or to the store and you should feel safe to shop whatever store you choose.

The OPs' allusion was to going out drinking. There are places where you double check to be sure you have your gun. Those are the places where you had best stay out of and doubly should not be drinking there. You know the type. Little purple barn looking place behind the truck stop on I-10. A stranger might get out with his skin if he is not drinking and getting roudy.


Most of the first paragraph from the OP

It was actually an elimination of carrying in places that sell alcohol for consumption on premises. Yet everybody bit the bait. They allowed the discussion to become almost solely about guns in bars.

The discussion is about more than bars. However, I don't see how talking about a bar or the neighborhood you live in is very different when you say, if you feel you need to be armed you shouldn't be there in the first place. You could just as easily say, if a person feels their neighborhood is unsafe and they need a gun they should move.

Those are great attitudes to take untill you have lived somewhere like Greenville or North Charleston South Carolina. Try living some where that cops feel safe taking bribes in broad daylight. Try living somewhere that two men can beat a returning war veteran to death, run from the law for weeks, and still be let out on bail. After you live in a city where the fast food places lock the doors at sundown, you will understand why being told not to carry is frustrating.

I have lived in cities where I felt every where I went was dangerous. I have lived in places where it was not uncommon to hear of home invasions that were also abductions. Luckily I don't live in those places now, but at the time I had to live there. In those places I mentioned and others I was afraid to be out after dark nearly anywhere. If I had been eligible to carry at the time, I would have. I also would have avoided any place that didn't allow me to carry.

Avoiding dangerous places is not always possible. In some places it is nearly impossible. Telling people that they just have to suck it up and be less well protected is condescending, pedantic, and/or shows a lack of understanding. It also doesn't address the fact that you have a right to protect your self to the fullest extent. I am not defenseless without a gun but, if the other guy has a tire iron, a kinfe, or a brick, a gun is my best option.

Still nobody has answered a question I posed along the way. Why should I be told I can not carry when I have proven through out my life to be responsible and avoid trouble? When less than 1% of CCH permit holder's lose their license due to criminal activity why shouldn't we be able to carry in places that sell alcohol for consumption?

LW, you did answer it in a fashion. However, I want to hear a logical, thought out, and well supported argument by those that oppose allowing CCH permit holders to take their guns in to place that sell alcohol for consumption on premises.

Upon re-reading this post I understand what is intended to be strong language may be overly so. That is a direct result of being up way too late. However, I am too tired to edit it any further. So, I will be off to bed with a preemptive apology and a promise that it isn't personal or meant as an attack.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 6, 2010, 01:49 AM
Mike, I have repeatedly stated that I don't mind one bit about carrying in a bar, restaurant, Uncle Jims Handy Dandy Liquor mart or where ever you so choose. My only beef is with those that seem to want to push the right to carry while drinking. Period. That is idiotic, foolish, retarded, stupid, and what ever more insulting things you want to call it. If you are going to drink, do not drive or carry a loaded firearm PERIOD. I cant for the life of me understand why ANYONE with a single braincell in their head would argue that for a split second. It's pure stupidity.

REAPER4206969
October 6, 2010, 02:07 AM
How about you simply google the term "Statistics for CCW carriers firing while intoxicated".
The only thing that comes up is Brady propaganda. Way to build credibility on a gun site.
Reaper, fact is there are too damn many news stories on it to pick just one my friend.
Just one.
Simple fact is, if you are drinking, don't carry a damn gun.
No.
You want to tell me that this should be allowed?
Yes. I manage not to act like an idiot.
I've seen way too many fools drinking to feel this should be a good idea.
Have you seen one of us here drink?
Sorry but I enjoy my life and the life of my children to care to damn much weather or not YOU feel all butthurt because an INTELLIGENT law requiring you to disarm while drinking should be enacted.
And I don't care about your illogical fears.
Carry anywhere you wish, don't mind that at all, fully agree with it, but do NOT carry while under the influence of anything.
Stay in Illinois.
My life and the life of my children thank you for making an intelligent choice.
I've got a Glock IWB and an Oktoberfest in my hand in honor of you.

Gato Montés
October 6, 2010, 02:16 AM
Mike, I have repeatedly stated that I don't mind one bit about carrying in a bar, restaurant, Uncle Jims Handy Dandy Liquor mart or where ever you so choose. My only beef is with those that seem to want to push the right to carry while drinking. Period. That is idiotic, foolish, retarded, stupid, and what ever more insulting things you want to call it. If you are going to drink, do not drive or carry a loaded firearm PERIOD. I cant for the life of me understand why ANYONE with a single braincell in their head would argue that for a split second. It's pure stupidity.

What is your definition of drinking? Some of us have a couple every here and now and that in no way endangers anyone. I'm guessing your view of alcohol is nothing more than a tool to get inebriated.

Furthermore, if Joe Blow goes to the bar while carrying and gets flat out drunk, hes going to do so whether or not it's legal. Any argument you can use against drinking and firearms can be used against private ownership of firearms itself.

General Geoff
October 6, 2010, 02:25 AM
If you are going to drink, do not drive or carry a loaded firearm PERIOD. I cant for the life of me understand why ANYONE with a single braincell in their head would argue that for a split second. It's pure stupidity.
It's all about discretion; having a drink or two does not make one a blundering idiot. Michael Schumacher is still a better driver with two drinks in him, than anyone on this board is stone-sober. And Jerry Miculek could still out-shoot pretty much all of us, even if he had a few.

As Dirty Harry once said, "A man's got to know his limitations." I don't think the law should dictate a man's limitations for him.

IlikeSA
October 6, 2010, 02:33 AM
I don't understand why people complain, as they did on the radio, about the government lessening its power. I suppose we have simply grown used to the fact that the government is in someway involved in most things that we do in public, and indeed, in private in some cases.

Gouranga
October 6, 2010, 08:19 AM
Here's the problem with comparing drunk driving to drunk carrying.

Driving is an inherently risky and dangerous activity which requires constant attention to prevent massive injury or death. Carrying is *not* inherently risky nor dangerous; shooting is, but anyone who regularly carries, knows that shooting is a last resort to protect life and limb from an adversary intent on serious bodily harm.

Carrying a gun is far closer to carrying car keys than actually driving. And while I've heard of people confiscating car keys before or during a night of expected drunkenness, I myself find that concept ridiculous.

It is not the carrying that concerns me, a gun in a holster is not dangerous. It is that the use of that firearm (if needed) is something that requires 1. Sound judgment and 2. physical coordination (so you actually hit what you are shooting at). Failure at either of these can have extremely dire consequences and alcohol specifically impairs you at both levels.

Given that alcohol impairs the functions needed to effectively and appropriately use your firearm, I do not see a problem with a law setting a BAC (as that is the only measure we have) at which carry is illegal (many states set it at 0.0). I do not think1 beer is going to impair you enough but on from there...well I would really be fine with having it at par with driving.

That being said, you KNOW if you had to use it and you had any alcohol in your system at all, you would be crucified in court criminal and civil.

Gouranga
October 6, 2010, 08:22 AM
I don't understand why people complain, as they did on the radio, about the government lessening its power. I suppose we have simply grown used to the fact that the government is in someway involved in most things that we do in public, and indeed, in private in some cases.

To be clear, I am not advocating that. If no such law is on the books in the state, they do NOT need one made. But for those of us who live in states with such a law on the books, the limit is usually any BAC over 0.0 or possession of alcohol at all with a firearm is illegal. If I was to follow the NC law, if I had a beer one beer and then some gang banger broke into my home. I would break the firearm laws if I grabbed my gun and used it to defend my family. That is total garbage. So really I would advocate setting a limit similar to DWI for firearms.

Double Naught Spy
October 6, 2010, 08:30 AM
A couple of drinks at the local watering hole after work is not the same as a drunk with a gun. A responsible person should not be getting drunk while armed.

Well intentioned, but very naive.

A couple of drinks? Come on. Do you realize how many responsible people had "a couple of drinks" and then drove their vehicles into other vehicles or people?

A reasonable person should not be getting drunk while armed, yet the process of getting drunk affects the brain in a manner that causes a lot of people to not be reasonable any longer. Reasoning capabilities deteriorate and thus so too do decision capabilities.

MikeNice, I find it ironic that your compaint is one of gun control and you don't like the fact that somebody else (government) is wanting control of your guns but your sig line is from one of Eastwoods movies where he states that he wants to control guns, even those that aren't his. You have his sig line, but if you were a character in the movie, you would not want him taking control of your gun.

Guillermo
October 6, 2010, 08:35 AM
this space left intentionally blank

JohnBT
October 6, 2010, 08:52 AM
"I have been trained since I could walk on how to handle firearms and more than likely have better training than 99% of the common public"

Ooooh, an elite person. Superior to the common man. Qualified to think for everybody else and issue orders. Well damn, I guess you just simply must be smarter than everybody too. Right?

Ha. Get over your stuck up self. You're not the only one raised around guns. Was your father a state trooper when you were born? Mine was. That and a couple of bucks will get you a cup of coffee.

And why can't I sit on my front porch sipping a beer and having a pistol in my pocket? I'm 60 and live on an urban street and haven't been drunk in years and years and years. I don't live in some suburban/rural utopia where I can see the bums coming from a mile away down the driveway, there're right there at the bottom of the porch steps on the sidewalk.

It's no wonder these discussions end up with incensed words. Too many meddling do-gooders who should simply mind their own business.

I still don't see why I shouldn't be able to carry a pistol into, oh, Applebee's at lunch and have one beer while enjoying a burger with my 84-year-old neighbor.

The people who want to carry and get drunk are ALREADY DOING IT. And probably don't have a carry permit anyway.
_______________________

Back to the topic of Virginia. The ratio isn't 50-50 anymore. In fact, the Virginia ABC Board is trying a pilot project because sales of expensive shots of liquor have thrown off the 45% to 55% ratio of food to alcohol sales.

"To better balance the 45-to-55 food-to-liquor ratio, Pflug and 11 other Virginia restaurant operators have joined ABC’s two-year pilot project to test an alternative way to calculate the ratio for mixed beverage licensees.

Rather than comparing the percentage of food sales to mixed-beverage sales, the pilot is based on alcohol volume. Participating licensees can sell $350 of food per one gallon of alcohol bought from ABC. Beer and wine aren’t included in either equation"

Sam1911
October 6, 2010, 09:09 AM
You know... if the scientists, sociologists, and liquor control boards figure out the formulas juuuust right, then the good folks in the legislatures can write jusssst the right law to control people ...

And then we'll be safe.

We'd better keep trying, though. Seems like we have an AWFUL lot of laws and folks tell us we're STILL not safe enough yet. Maybe if we had another one. Or two. Yeah, three, tops. THEN we'll be safe.

Old Fuff
October 6, 2010, 09:20 AM
The people who want to carry and get drunk are ALREADY DOING IT. And probably don't have a carry permit anyway.

Indeed! And concealed means concealed. Which is the reason none of the proposed rules, regulations and laws will accomplish what they are supposed to. :uhoh:

lloydkristmas
October 6, 2010, 09:27 AM
I dont do the bar scene much, but if Im there, the gun is too. Its my responsibility to keep it concealed, and if I fail to do so, well I guess I reap the consequences. Never had an issue in seven years of carrying.

Unless there is a metal detector, my gun is on my side.

Hatterasguy
October 6, 2010, 09:38 AM
Drinking and driving don't mix very well, neither does drinking and weapons.

Their was just a big shooting in New Haven as the bars were closing. Dumb kids bring guns and knives and get a bit drunk and pissed off and start fighting.

ForumSurfer
October 6, 2010, 09:39 AM
I'll avoid the drinking while carrying debate...

However, I find it asinine that my government will not let me carry in restaurants that serve alcohol. If I sit down to eat with my family at pizza hut, I can't carry a weapon in because they serve beer for consumption.

Most alcohol related fights start with someone spewing off at the mouth, so why not go for the source. Instead of banning my right to carry in a place that serves alcohol, let's ban free speech. If you want to speak freely, go somewhere else. That seems about as fair as temporarily stripping me of my right to keep and bear arms (which I had to pay a licensing fee for).

CoRoMo
October 6, 2010, 09:40 AM
My state does not prohibit carrying a gun into an establishment that serves alcohol. Concealed or openly, it doesn't matter, it is perfectly legal. IIRC, consuming alcohol while carrying isn't illegal either.

Consequentially, our population has nearly been wiped out now. There are only a few of us left here, and a lot of vacant housing. Had the government only gotten involved, and told us all what we can and cannot do, dozens of people would... no hundreds of... no thousan... tens of thou... hundreds of thousands of people would still be alive today.

:rolleyes:

CZguy
October 6, 2010, 09:44 AM
I guess that I'm not in favor of any more laws.

I carry and drive daily, therefore I don't consume anything that would impair my judgment. That however is a personal choice, that everyone should make for themselves. If you drink and then for some reason use a firearm, then you have brought the problem to yourself.

It's the same with seat belts, motorcycle helmets, and health insurance. It should be the individuals responsibility to determine what is correct for them. Just don't look to me to pay for it if you make the wrong choice.

ForumSurfer
October 6, 2010, 10:17 AM
My state does not prohibit carrying a gun into an establishment that serves alcohol. Concealed or openly, it doesn't matter, it is perfectly legal. IIRC, consuming alcohol while carrying isn't illegal either.

Consequentially, our population has nearly been wiped out now. There are only a few of us left here, and a lot of vacant housing. Had the government only gotten involved, and told us all what we can and cannot do, dozens of people would... no hundreds of... no thousan... tens of thou... hundreds of thousands of people would still be alive today.

:eek:

I'm sorry to hear that.

I'll see about deportin...er, uh...sending you some of our life saving politicians. They'll whip up some magic legislation to stop evil doers right away.

happygeek
October 6, 2010, 10:27 AM
WA state only prohibits carrying in the portion of the establishment that is off limits to those under 21, i.e. the bar portion of Applebees for example. I have no idea if they prohibit even 1 drink while carrying, since I don't do that I haven't worried about it.

It is pretty stupid that some states won't even let you carry in Pizza Hut rather than just making the bar section off limits.

MikeNice
October 6, 2010, 10:37 AM
MikeNice, I find it ironic that your compaint is one of gun control and you don't like the fact that somebody else (government) is wanting control of your guns but your sig line is from one of Eastwoods movies where he states that he wants to control guns,

I will admit I took the quote completely out of context. I saw it in one of those qoute montages on Youtube or another video site. The way it was cut in it came across pretty cool. It also seemed to fit the way I feel when I'm around certain people. So, I took the quote.

Tell me which movie it is from. I'll try to find it in context. If I disagree with the context I will change it.

MikeNice
October 6, 2010, 10:43 AM
Their was just a big shooting in New Haven as the bars were closing. Dumb kids bring guns and knives and get a bit drunk and pissed off and start fighting.

Exactly, dumb kids that are breaking the law to begin with. These aren't law abiding folks. They most likely aren't carrying legally. These are kids that have no respect for their own lives or the laws.

If I was leaving a neighboring establishment I would not want to be unarmed during this scene. I could probably avoid it all together. I would still love to be able to avoid becoming collateral damage. You never know what a violent mob of people will do.

LemmyCaution
October 6, 2010, 11:20 AM
Boy!

It's a good thing we don't have carry permits in VT. Those might lead to restrictions on where we could carry. Or what we could do while carrying.

For those who believe that there is a strong correlation between lawful possession of firearms and drinking as a causation of violent crime, I challenge you to support that position by analyzing the state of Vermont's violent crime statistics. It should be easy. We're a small state. The numbers aren't very big and should be easy to gather. Wait! Here they are:

We had four homicides last year.
Three using knives.
One using a hammer.

Correlate away, my friends.

As an added bonus, you can throw out the distortion of the 'good guy card' effect of CCW/FOID permits, as we presume that adults are responsible citizens here as a matter of course and constitution and don't require the government's permission to bear arms.

For myself, if I'm in the woods all day working and want to have a beer at the local watering hole after, I'm going to wear my handgun openly on my belt and sit right at the bar. Both the bartenders carry concealed, as well as a good number of the clientele. In all my years drinking there, I've seen a couple of heated arguments, usually between couples who are well known for that sort of thing, but never a physical confrontation.

MinnMooney
October 6, 2010, 12:01 PM
When I did finally get through I was informed there wasn't enough time. I was told to call back another time.

Were you asked what your opinion was prior to being told to hang up and try someother time?

MikeNice
October 6, 2010, 12:25 PM
Minn, I was not asked my opinion before being told to call back. I don't believe that it was a case of the host trying to stack the deck.

Hatterasguy
October 6, 2010, 01:17 PM
Exactly, dumb kids that are breaking the law to begin with. These aren't law abiding folks. They most likely aren't carrying legally. These are kids that have no respect for their own lives or the laws.

If I was leaving a neighboring establishment I would not want to be unarmed during this scene. I could probably avoid it all together. I would still love to be able to avoid becoming collateral damage. You never know what a violent mob of people will do.

Knives are legal, also I'm not sure if the guns were legal or not.

But weapons, male ego's, and alcohol don't always work so well together. Having a weapon around is the difference between having a bar fight where someone gets roughed up a bit for being a loud jackass, or gets a .357 Sig round in the head.

Say your carrying in a bar, what happens if a loud jackass goes after you, what happens if he gets your gun? Your going to shoot dead an unarmed drunk guy? That would look real good in front of a jury.

If you think you need a gun for protection your in the wrong bar.

lwknight
October 6, 2010, 01:49 PM
These same topics/scenarios have been discussed to death on numerous forums.

1. Almost unanimously , no one wants any more gun laws and no one wants the gubment telling free men what not to do or how to do it.

2. Stupid people walk amoung us. Thats a fact! These people have to be controlled for the safety of everyone. Thats a fact!

3. So far no one has ever come up a satisfactory plan that will both keep "Stupid" headed off before it hurts someone, and stays the hell out of reasonable folks business.

JohnBT
October 6, 2010, 01:50 PM
"Say your carrying in a bar, what happens if a loud jackass goes after you, what happens if he gets your gun? Your going to shoot dead an unarmed drunk guy? "

If he has a broken beer bottle in his hand he will probably get shot unless somebody younger than me grabs him. I'm 60. I don't think I'm going to be taking any beatings if I can avoid it somehow. I don't want to end up crippled and I've had one back surgery already. I'll take my chances thank you very much.

What happens when you leave the restaurant (Virginia does not have bars) and get robbed in the parking lot after having a nice alcohol-free lunch or dinner? It's not unheard of in Richmond.

Everybody isn't an alcohol-crazed idiot looking for a fight. Some of them are just thieves. And maybe some of them are all cracked or cranked up.

John

JohnBT
October 6, 2010, 01:52 PM
And about this

" what happens if a loud jackass goes after you, what happens if he gets your gun? Your going to shoot dead an unarmed drunk guy?"

How am I going to shoot him if he's got my gun? I don't understand.

And it's you're, not your. :)

ForumSurfer
October 6, 2010, 01:56 PM
If you think you need a gun for protection your in the wrong bar.

But it is a slippery slope.

The same law (which is obeyed by law abiding citizens, not the ones we prepare ourselves to defend against) in my state that is there to keep guns out of bars, also prevents me from carrying in pizza hut or anywhere that serves alcohol for consumption.

By the "you should be somewhere else if you are worried" logic, we should just stay home and not worry about the RKBA for protection at all.

No offense, I partially agree with you...I'm just saying that government laws and legislation leads to our rights being infringed upon.

Sam1911
October 6, 2010, 02:12 PM
2. Stupid people walk among us. Thats a fact! These people have to be controlled for the safety of everyone. Thats a fact!

But no one is "controlled," really. A law can't do that proactively. All it can do is assess penalties after someone screws up.

The only way to "control" someone for the safety of everyone is to put them behind bars. So, are you suggesting we write a law to put behind bars everyone who carries a gun in a restaurant/bar? Or everyone who has a drink or two while in possession of their defensive sidearm?

Leaving that dead horse behind ... at least for a minute ...

And so say I'm visiting some state where I'm not allowed to enter a bar with my carry gun or have a drink while carrying it. I'm all legal, which is a plus.

What protects me from the violent criminal, who does carry a gun into the bar (or the bar's parking lot while I'm on my way to the car) because he doesn't care about the laws? He doesn't care about the (malum in se) laws against assault or murder, why should he care about a technical (malum prohibidum) law against being armed in a bar? I can be really righteous and lawful while I bleed out on the sidewalk.

I guess it's my fault for being in the wrong place, though. If I want to go have a drink (or two, or three) with dinner I should accept the fact that part of the price is an increased chance of being killed. Seems fair ... right?

MikeNice
October 6, 2010, 02:17 PM
Having a weapon around is the difference between having a bar fight where someone gets roughed up a bit for being a loud jackass, or gets a .357 Sig round in the head.


No it is not. If you follow the proper escelation of force you are not going to shoot somebody over a simple fight. Simple assault is not justification for using lethal force in NC. That means first you attempt to walk away. If the person puts their hands on you you use justifiable force to stop them. If you become afraid there is a imminent threat of serious bodily injury you respond as needed. If he pulls a weapon, or breaks a bottle, then you can use lethal force.

Being in a bar does not change the rules of engagement. It does not mean you should be less aware or that you should not try to avoid the situation. If a loud mouth guy comes up and starts screaming in your face, leave. If some guy grabs your lady friend, leave. Do not escelate the fight it you believe the other guy is too drunk to act rationally.

Hell, here is a good piece of advice, never escelate a fight. If it is at all possible to do so safely, just walk away. The only exception should be your home or place of business.

What would you do if a drunk guy approaches you in the Wal Mart parking lot and starts yelling at you? You would continue to your car and try to leave.


If you think you need a gun for protection your in the wrong bar.

If you think you need a gun in your home, you're in the wrong neighborhood. Move to another neighborhood or another city.

If you think you need a gun for protection you are just paranoid.

Do these arguments seem familiar?

I was just thinking about a bit that Chris Rock did. He was talking about how everybody feels safer in clubs now because they started using metal detectors. He basicly said he doesn't go to those clubs because it just means the criminals can wait outside for easy victims. It was part of a song I believe. If anybody remembers it please post a link.

Sam1911
October 6, 2010, 02:30 PM
Having a weapon around is the difference between having a bar fight where someone gets roughed up a bit for being a loud jackass, or gets a .357 Sig round in the head. Yeaouch... that's a pretty poor understanding of self-defense from several angles.

1) As Mike said, no bar altercation changes the laws or the best practices for extricating yourself from a violent encounter. You've actually suggested here that a) it is acceptible to assault someone for mouthing off, and that b) an otherwise "normal" person would KILL someone for mouthing off if they just had a gun with them. Maybe you want to rethink that...

2) Contrary to what the movies and TV have trained you so carefully (and WELL) to believe -- there are no "simple," "harmless" fights. Any fight can end very quickly with someone dead. There is no circumstance under which it is "safe" to participate in a violent attack or defense. Bottles, chairs, pool cues, boots, and fists ... KILL. You had better know your state's self-defense laws very clearly, and had better have your awareness and de-escalation skills in top condition. But you CANNOT just "be a man" and take a few punches rather than defend yourself. Every injury/impact reduces your ability to respond to the next attack. Allow yourself to get beaten down and you will be at the mercy of your attacker to stop causing you damage before he kills you. He may not have any mercy at all -- and certainly doesn't have the physiological understanding to know when you're about to suffer a fatal injury.

Boberama
October 6, 2010, 02:32 PM
You want to bring a gun into a bar? Sure.
http://www.gearfuse.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/liquor_guns.jpg
But no drinking.

Boberama
October 6, 2010, 02:34 PM
It depends on the fighter, I guess.
A 260-lb guy coming at you with a broken bottle is different from that 140-lb guy in the corner tring to kick you and falling on his back.

I guess it's my fault for being in the wrong place, though.:) If I want to go have a drink (or two, or three) with dinner I should accept the fact that part of the price is an increased chance of being killed.:) Seems fair ... right?:)

Become a tee-totaller. Or go to the bar and drink a soda.:barf:
If you allow people to drink and carry, there will be drunken people carrying. Can't drink and drive, can't carry and drink.

Try shooting with these on and tell me how you do:
http://www.technovelgy.com/graphics/content07/fatal-vision-goggles.jpg

KBintheSLC
October 6, 2010, 02:37 PM
Generally I'm against special laws for stuff that is already illegal. Murder is illegal, therefore this "issue" is moot.

I know that there are people who believe that there is a magical number of laws that need to be written in order for people to behave; I don't understand those people, but I know they exist.

This sums it up for me. Killing someone in a drunken fit of rage is already illegal pretty much everywhere.

Hatterasguy
October 6, 2010, 02:45 PM
1) As Mike said, no bar altercation changes the laws or the best practices for extricating yourself from a violent encounter. You've actually suggested here that a) it is acceptible to assault someone for mouthing off, and that b) an otherwise "normal" person would KILL someone for mouthing off if they just had a gun with them. Maybe you want to rethink that...


My point is a perfectly rational person who does start to consume alcohol loses their ability to properly judge and react to a situation. Throw a weapon in and a situation can quickly get out of hand. Also most bars and clubs are frequented by a younger crowed, and with age comes judgment which they lack. This is why 18-21 year old clubs at least around here never work, they kids just fight, stab, and sometimes shoot at each other.

I would have no problems with guns in bars if the people carrying were not drinking. Just like motor vehicles firearms and alcohol don't mix.

But having been on this world for awhile, and been to my fair share of bars and seen my fair share of stupid people; I don't trust people not to drink and carry anymore than I trust them not to drink and drive.

I'm also all for supporting freedoms but your rights stop when they can affect other people. Its not your right to get drunk and plow your truck into my car; its also not your right to get drunk next to me while carrying a gun.

This is one thing I like about my states CC permit, if you are caught carrying in a bar you lose it for good, that's it, can't buy or transport pistols legally anymore. It certainly doesn't stop the criminal element, but it does help keep honest people honest.

Hatterasguy
October 6, 2010, 02:49 PM
If you think you need a gun in your home, you're in the wrong neighborhood. Move to another neighborhood or another city.

If you think you need a gun for protection you are just paranoid.

Do these arguments seem familiar?

I was just thinking about a bit that Chris Rock did. He was talking about how everybody feels safer in clubs now because they started using metal detectors. He basicly said he doesn't go to those clubs because it just means the criminals can wait outside for easy victims. It was part of a song I believe. If anybody remembers it please post a link.

You can take any argument to the extreme, but let me spell it out. Don't go into seedy biker/gang banger bars. The kind of places where you sit with your back to the wall, every city has at least a couple seedy bars.

Somehow I don't think I'm going to need my 1911 to fend off the accountant or attorney next to me as a sip my drink at a nice bar. Contrary to popular belief violent criminals are not hiding in every shadow waiting to attack. We live in a very safe country if you practice a bit of common sense.

wishn4more
October 6, 2010, 02:53 PM
Being in a bar, and being inebriated/altered/drunk are not the same thing.

I am a teetotaller, so being IN a bar/tavern/restaurant absolutely does not mean I would be altered. From what I hear about Virginia, most of the Chili's, Outbacks and the like are considered bars. Being in one does not mean you would be altered -- under the current law, it does mean you must be unarmed. Why should I not be armed when out to dinner with my family?

I don't think drunk people should carry. That makes sense. Same goes for high (whether illegal or prescriptive). If you're gonna get altered, lock up your carry piece and give up the car keys.

An earlier post said that the alcohol limit for CCH was 0.0, so there's no reason for a ban in a place that sells alcohol. If you're drinking and carrying, you're breaking the law anyway (regardless of where you are)...

unloved
October 6, 2010, 03:17 PM
If you're drinking and carrying, you're breaking the law anyway (regardless of where you are)...

Huh? Absolutely incorrect.

skipbadger
October 6, 2010, 03:35 PM
I like to separate my thinking about carrying in bars/restaurants that serve alcohol and whether or not one should drink and carry into two arguments depending on the situation:

1. What the law really should be - Carrying shouldn't be limited in any way, shape, or form. I have been drunk many times and never been involved in any encounter whatsoever. If I won't throw a punch and will always act with a sense of decency and decorum, why would I ever pull a gun unless deadly force was needed to protect myself? There are plenty of laws around "behaving badly", why add laws that cover "MIGHT POSSIBLY behave badly"?

2. What I would compromise on - Give me a choice and let it be mine and mine alone. I live in North Carolina and can't carry in a place where alcohol is both sold and consumed. In NC, I would be fine with the ability to carry and not be able to drink. Not because that is what I truly believe, but at this point in time, that law would be the easiest to get passed. Once that law was passed, I would get behind being able to drink and carry. I would be OK with BAC limits as well, because that would make the law more likely to pass.

Legal baby steps in the right direction work for me if it means progress. Just like in sports, it doesn't always make sense to go for the touchdown or homerun. Just get in a better position to score points and win.

MikeNice
October 6, 2010, 03:37 PM
Somehow I don't think I'm going to need my 1911 to fend off the accountant or attorney next to me as a sip my drink at a nice bar.

When I'm inside my favorite blues bar I don't think I'll run in to any proplems. However, walking down the dim alley to get to my car makes me nervous.

When I am at my second favorite blues/jazz bar I feel safe inside. However, it backs up to a low income neighborhood that is known to be dangerous. A family member was actually robbed while replacing windows in a church about six blocks away.

Inside I feel completely safe. Outside I think there is an elevated risk to my safety. Should I have to chose between enjoying a good night of music and being safe? It is illegal to carry and drink. So, I will not be drinking anything stronger than Pepsi. Somehow I should still be unarmed? It makes no sense to me.

If we look at the stats from across the country less than 1% of CCH permit holders have their permit revoked. When you get down to people having it revoked for breaking the law the percentage falls even more. So, with the evidence being what it is, why are people afraid to let CCH holders carry? If the law says you can not drink and carry 99% of permit holders will not drink.

I just can not see the loigic in a law saying a CCH holder can not enter an establishment that sells alcohol for consumption on the premises.

Also most bars and clubs are frequented by a younger crowed, and with age comes judgment which they lack. This is why 18-21 year old clubs at least around here never work, they kids just fight, stab, and sometimes shoot at each other.

At what age does maturity magically appear? So because young criminals go to bars law abiding citizens shouldn't be allowed to protect their self from them? I know that isn't exactly what you are saying, but that is how it sounds.

Also don't forget these laws also apply to the places you like to eat dinner with your family. It also affects restraunts that sell for consumption.

Could a happy medium be we exempt restaraunts that just happen to sell alcohol to go with food?

Varob
October 6, 2010, 03:41 PM
I think Virginia got it right. If you want to carry concealed in restaurants that serve, you can. If you want to have a drink/beer with you dinner, and carry, you can do so but you have to open carry.

azyogi
October 6, 2010, 03:46 PM
I only ever have one drink, wine mostly dark beer sometimes. The notion that this somehow renders me incapable of driving or carrying a gun is 0 tolerance nonsense. Drunks don't belong behind the wheel or a trigger, one drink doesn't make a drunk. To ban guns and drinking is to buy into the idealogy that anyone that has anything to drink is a drunk. Lowering the BAC standard from 0.12 to 0.08 wasn't done because of a rash of wrecks with BAC's of 0.09 it was done to placate 0 tolerance a vocal special interest group. Some folks can't have just one drink, to fix their problem by transfering it to everyone was tried, it was called the 18th amendment.

Sam1911
October 6, 2010, 03:50 PM
If you allow people to drink and carry, there will be drunken people carrying.
Really? Where are they? We "allow" that in my state and -- as I've said before several (hundred) times, no social outcry has arisen...even after several decades of a "trial period."

Can't drink and drive, can't carry and drink.
Can in my state. So far, so good. Maybe we're just about to see a rash of trouble from it. You know, at that critical 20-something year horizon. :rolleyes:

Sam1911
October 6, 2010, 03:51 PM
but your rights stop when they can affect other people. Bull crap.

Your rights stop when they DO affect other people. Not when they "can" or "could" or "might" or ...

Sam1911
October 6, 2010, 03:55 PM
Its not your right to get drunk and plow your truck into my car; its also not your right to get drunk next to me while carrying a gun.Wow. So vehicular homicide is the same thing as SITTING NEXT TO SOMEONE with an object and drinking a beverage?

It certainly doesn't stop the criminal element, but it does help keep honest people honest. Ahhh, good. Another seriously needed law to keep the honest folks in line.

Sheesh.

ForumSurfer
October 6, 2010, 03:57 PM
I'm also all for supporting freedoms but your rights stop when they can affect other people. Its not your right to get drunk and plow your truck into my car; its also not your right to get drunk next to me while carrying a gun.

It is also my right to go and shoot on my own property. Other people do the same thing, but not safely. This sends the occasional round onto someone's property and endangers them. So should it also be illegal to shoot on my own property? It is my right to do so, but I can easily be careless and shoot in a different direction and endanger a housing development a mile away.

You can take any argument to the extreme, but let me spell it out. Don't go into seedy biker/gang banger bars. The kind of places where you sit with your back to the wall, every city has at least a couple seedy bars.

Yep, they do have seedy bars. I can agree that you enter those places at your own risk. There is a flip-side in that one of the most upscale bar in my town has had a murder in the parking lot. One of the most upscale restaurants in my town has had guy commit a shooting spree that resulted in several deaths. Either of these could have been stopped had someone been legally carrying. But since the knee jerk reaction is to ban responsible carrying if there is any alcohol being consumed, no one was.

wheelgunslinger
October 6, 2010, 03:58 PM
I don't see why this extra law is needed.
If you shoot someone, it's assault with a deadly weapon, attempted murder, or murder. Or whatever.

So, you stack some misdemeanor on top of murder or multiple other felonies. What for?


It's already unlawful to do the acts everyone seems to think that people convulsively do when they drink and have a firearm.

ForumSurfer
October 6, 2010, 04:02 PM
I don't see why this extra law is needed.
If you shoot someone, it's assault with a deadly weapon, attempted murder, or murder. Or whatever.

So, you stack some misdemeanor on top of murder or multiple other felonies. What for?


It's already unlawful to do the acts everyone seems to think that people convulsively do when they drink and have a firearm.

Couldn't agree more. To me, it seems like the same line of reasoning leads people to believe that "gun free zones" will keep the criminals unarmed.

After being forced to leave my gun somewhere whenever I go to a nice restaurant, simply because 99.999% of nice restaurants serve alcohol...I see these laws as nothing more than victim disarmament.

Sam1911
October 6, 2010, 04:02 PM
Somehow I don't think I'm going to need my 1911 to fend off the accountant or attorney next to me as a sip my drink at a nice bar. Contrary to popular belief violent criminals are not hiding in every shadow waiting to attack. We live in a very safe country if you practice a bit of common sense.
This is an embarassing example of the same false logic that gets us all gun control laws to begin with. So your bar is safe? And you don't need your gun? Great. Why don't we all just stay in the "safe" places? We can obviously identify them so easily. I'm sure you don't really believe that, and yes, I'm teasing you to make my point.

I thought alcohol ingestion brought about random violent and irrational behavior? Therefore NO bar is safe! Unlike the rest of the world ... which also is not "safe" regardless of what you might assume as you wander through in "conditon white."

How 'bout your drive (or walk) there? Is the parking lot safe? Is your route safe? Is it o.k. to leave your gun in the car? What if you're attacked in the parking lot on your way back to the vehicle? Or did you give up your right to fight (effectively) for your life when you took a sip of beer?

This arguement is too easily destroyed ... and yet otherwise rational folks pick it off the ash heap, tape over the holes, and hoist it again over and over.

Hatterasguy
October 6, 2010, 04:04 PM
Your twisting my argument. Sitting next to me at a bar and getting sloshed while having a Glock in your belt isn't all that much different than jumping in your truck and driving home afterwords. Sure it might be fine, but eventually its going to catch up to you.

And as the person who is going to have to dodge the truck and or bullets when it does go bad I don't really want to.

ForumSurfer
October 6, 2010, 04:06 PM
Somehow I don't think I'm going to need my 1911 to fend off the accountant or attorney next to me as a sip my drink at a nice bar. Contrary to popular belief violent criminals are not hiding in every shadow waiting to attack. We live in a very safe country if you practice a bit of common sense.
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/08/08/us/soldier-kills-4-people-and-hurts-6-in-a-restaurant-in-north-carolina.html

That isn't exactly a black tie kind of place, but it is nice and they have jazz bands that play and wine tasting nights...far from a seedy bikee bar. (edit:: although I have been to a biker bar or two that I felt perfectly safe in)

These type of events are the very reason we carry and support the RKBA. Disarming us simply because someone may be consuming alcohol sold on the premises just creates a room full of victims.

Sam1911
October 6, 2010, 04:11 PM
Your twisting my argument. Sitting next to me at a bar and getting sloshed while having a Glock in your belt isn't all that much different than jumping in your truck and driving home afterwords. Sure it might be fine, but eventually its going to catch up to you.

You twisted your own argument! :D That's what makes this so much fun!

You said "right to get drunk and plow your truck into my car" and "right to get drunk next to me while carrying a gun." One is a violent, deadly event. The other is ... well, not.

Others have explained here very well why driving a car and carrying a gun are not the same and don't carry equal levels of risk to others. (Hint: "carrying" not "shooting.")

Hatterasguy
October 6, 2010, 04:15 PM
No the argument is quite sound, alcohol impairs judgment, period. You can't argue that, you can argue how much, which you can track based on body weight and a few other factors.

Also I don't CC, I don't feel we live in a dangerous country and I have never regretted my decision. Having said that I don't really care if others do, its not my business. I feel perfectly safe driving to a bar, walking in and getting a drink. Now their are some 3rd world bars in Bridgeport, CT that I wouldn't feel safe in without half a dozen body guards carrying MP5's, but I don't make it a habit of putting myself in high risk situations.


As I have said before if your not drinking that's fine bring your gun into the bar, I don't really care. But if your going to pound down a six pack and get a good buzz going that's cool, leave the Glock at home. Even when I'm at home I won't handle my firearms after a few drinks.


Lastly if you live in a rural part of the country things are a bit different than where I live. More built up areas have more crime related problems, which is just the nature of the beast. More people=more crime.

Hatterasguy
October 6, 2010, 04:19 PM
http://www.wtnh.com/dpp/news/new_haven_cty/shots-ring-out-in-downtown-new-haven
This just happened a few weeks ago where I usually drink, mostly high end bars and clubs around it, ghetto a few streets over.

CoRoMo
October 6, 2010, 04:19 PM
...having a Glock in your belt ... driving home...
You're saying that these two things are similar, when one is intoxicated. But that is just silly. They would also have to be similar, when one is totally sober. Like Sam said, one is relatively dangerous, sober or not, and the other isn't.

Of course if you believe that having a holstered gun on your belt, is inherently dangerous, the anti crowd would totally agree with you. It's one of their silly and incoherent notions.

Hatterasguy
October 6, 2010, 04:21 PM
I believe that operating machinery while impaired is dangerous, having a gun on you counts as operating machinery. Correct in a holster its not operating its sitting their, what happens when you need to use it?

Cars and guns are both dangerous, although I would argue cars are slightly more so since I'm pretty sure more people die every year in auto accidents.

ForumSurfer
October 6, 2010, 04:21 PM
Lastly if you live in a rural part of the country things are a bit different than where I live. More built up areas have more crime related problems, which is just the nature of the beast. More people=more crime.

Exactly, so we should all pack up and move out in the country or to the outer banks. :D

Wait, people have been trying to escape urban sprawl. That's why what was once miles of farmland next to my family's farmland is now littered with housing developments. Urban sprawl, she comes. Why not ccw just in case?

As I have said before if your not drinking that's fine bring your gun into the bar, I don't really care.

I have no further arguments with you. Drinking and packing is a debate that I don't feel strongly enough about to debate. But stripping my right to bear arms simply because I have the potential to drink in an establishment really ticks me off. :cuss:

CoRoMo
October 6, 2010, 04:24 PM
...I don't feel we live in a dangerous country ... their are some 3rd world bars in Bridgeport, CT that I wouldn't feel safe in...
...having a gun on you counts as operating machinery. ... in a holster its not operating its sitting their...
You really need to get a better grasp of what you are saying. You conflict one statement with the next. It isn't making a bit of sense. Try and proofread what you write before you hit the POST button.

Sam1911
October 6, 2010, 04:27 PM
having a gun on you counts as operating machinery

No it doesn't. It is absurd to say so. Having a gun on you is the equivalent to having your car keys in your pocket.

unloved
October 6, 2010, 04:28 PM
Lastly if you live in a rural part of the country things are a bit different than where I live.

I live in the Philadelphia metro area. It's perfectly legal for me, or any other lawfully armed person, to enter a bar while armed, and to drink as much as we choose. As Sam1911 has pointed out over, and over again, it just isn't a problem.

JohnBT
October 6, 2010, 04:28 PM
The Outer Banks is more crowded than most suburbs. I remember it from the '60s when it wasn't. You know, when there wasn't a grocery store or a 7-11, much less a bunch of Food Lions.


"Contrary to popular belief violent criminals are not hiding in every shadow waiting to attack."

Never lived in Richmond have you? You need to get out more. I grew up in Baltimore and D.C. fwiw, so I'm not city-phobic at all, but crime stats are real.

wheelgunslinger
October 6, 2010, 04:39 PM
I still don't get how more law on top of existing law is going to stop or prevent anything. :banghead:

People carry in bars every day (see previous posts here) and don't lose their minds.

It's like some kind of DARE program brainwashing up in here when this subject is broached.

Sam1911
October 6, 2010, 04:41 PM
what happens when you need to use it?


Congratulations! "Houston, we have enlightenment!" :D

When you NEED to use it -- it ISN'T there. And (understanding that one does not NEED a gun unless one has a life or death reason to SHOOT someone) that means, drunk, tipsy, buzzed, just a bit happy, or stone cold sober, you're going to DIE.

Yeah...I might not be as good a shot after a few beers as I am completely alcohol free. But I didn't sign away my right to fight for my life when I took a sip of alcohol.

I may have a hard time with the DA later -- but I'll stand a better chance of being alive sitting on the witness stand.

lwknight
October 6, 2010, 05:20 PM
It seems that most everyone is missing everyone elses point and even perverting statements into what they were not intended.

So for those who think they have the answer. Lets hear it!!
If you are given the authority to write the law exactly how you want it.
What will it state?

I say that if someone gets drunk and acts stupid with a gun that we drag them out back and stomp the doggie poo out of them. No laws made or broken.

KodiakBeer
October 6, 2010, 05:25 PM
Here's a story from today's paper: http://www.adn.com/2010/10/06/1488835/man-kills-self-after-shooting.html

Three people get drunk in bar. Argument breaks out on the way home. One dead, one critically wounded.

Did the fact that it is illegal to be carrying while drunk, prevent the shooting? Did the fact that it is illegal to shoot somebody prevent the shooting?

One-Time
October 6, 2010, 05:30 PM
I do not drink, but I do go to bars for the food and friends, and I want to be able to carry there as well

skipbadger
October 6, 2010, 05:56 PM
Somehow I don't think I'm going to need my 1911 to fend off the accountant or attorney next to me as a sip my drink at a nice bar. Contrary to popular belief violent criminals are not hiding in every shadow waiting to attack. We live in a very safe country if you practice a bit of common sense.

Common sense tells me that nothing bad would ever happen in my upper middle class neighborhood in North Carolina. Yet folks two blocks away were followed home from their store one night after they closed it, then kidnapped at gunpoint, and thrown in the trunk of the kidnappers car to head back to the store to rob it. Luckily the kidnappers were really stupid and didn't take the cell phones from the victims. Cops were waiting at the store.

I carry because common sense tells me that bad things happen to good people at all hours of the day, in all kinds of places. Very few victims of violent crimes that live ever say, "Frankly, I was kind of expecting it".

And no, you wouldn't need your 1911 to fight off the accountant. The attorney is another matter altogether.

fireside44
October 6, 2010, 05:57 PM
So you believe that it is all well and fine for Joe Blow to be staggering drunk and armed?

Yes, actually I do. If he is so inebriated he can't get off the couch, I don't have much to worry about in terms of being shot with a gun. In fact, I could probably peel said drunk for his piece and he would never know where his cherished Glock disappeared to.

Ever wonder where the old saying "Ply her with drink" comes from?

Yes, more or less sober men who lack moral responsibility.

I don't want my life nor that of my kids put in jeopardy because you "think" you are not intoxicated.

Out of the thousands of times I have enjoyed a beer or whiskey or five with a gun within easy reach, no one has been shot, threatened, or even had their feelings hurt. In fact, I'd go so far as to say a CCW holder drinking beer while armed is a heck of a lot more trustworthy than a non CCW holder drinking beer while unarmed.

To be honest, the only time I have ever had trouble with drunks is when they weren't armed, therefore, my experience tells me the most dangerous drunks don't carry weapons when consuming alcohol and so I am most cautious when dealing with those irresponsible citizens who drink without having a weapon on them.:)

I have been trained since I could walk on how to handle firearms and more than likely have better training than 99% of the common public and I STILL refuse to carry if I am drinking period.

Good for you. If you don't feel safe carrying while drinking then you shouldn't. Other people don't have your level of paranoia and are more comfortable having a holstered weapon on them while consuming a beverage.

If you feel like you need to be armed to feel "protected" then make the choice to not drink!

So in other words, an alcoholic ought to forfeit his right to SD because of a drinking problem? Should he be able to carry a knife while drinking? A baseball bat? The same foolish arguments could be made for prohibitions against having a folding knife in your pocket while drunk. You might cut yourself or someone else.

Sorry but if it comes to your "rights" verses the life of my child because your stupid drunk self couldn't hold proper aim then your rights can be damned.

You pretty much let the cat out of the bag with that one. In other words, you will sacrifice freedom for your own personal security.

Ian Sean
October 6, 2010, 06:13 PM
I live in the Philadelphia metro area. It's perfectly legal for me, or any other lawfully armed person, to enter a bar while armed, and to drink as much as we choose. As Sam1911 has pointed out over, and over again, it just isn't a problem.


Isn't PA beautiful!, all you have to do is look at the states that do allow it, you find out it is not an issue. Legal or not, if a person is irresponsible or a criminal, it doesn't matter one iota if it against the law or not.

It is always the same thing, a state looks at relaxing a law, all of a sudden it is going to be the "Wild West" or whatever strawmant argument fits the bill.

WoofersInc
October 6, 2010, 07:35 PM
I think my biggest issue with these discussions is this. Most of you automatically assume that just because I have walked into a bar I am going to get falling down drunk. I know myself and what constitutes under the influence for me. 1 or 2 drinks over a couple of hours does not make me intoxicated.

I am a nurse. If I get any type of criminal arrest (such as a DUI) I lose my nursing liscense. Because of this, I know my limits. I don't want to lose my job. However, I also don't want to lose my life. Having one beer with dinner should not make me incapable of defending myself. Fortunately I live in Nevada. The law says I can be as high as .10 before I am legally not able to carry. And like Sam1911 has pointed out abot PA., there is not an issue with shoot outs and CCW's going crazy and shooting places up. I have yet to hear about it happening. You know that if it did the anti's would be making a big issue over it.

Face it. those of us that have a CCW are the type that usually have common sense and know how to use it. It amazes me how that common sense seems to disappear when this topic comes up. Zero tolerance rears it's head and the name calling begins shortly after that.

Yo Mama
October 6, 2010, 08:31 PM
Isn't this always a fun topic!?!?

Webbj0219
October 6, 2010, 08:37 PM
Ok first off, im on the side of Responsible drinking. I work for the state of NH liquor commission. And I live in New England, where your pretty much shunned if you refuse a drink. Lol, well maybe not that bad, not as much as it used to be. So if your opposed to drinking in anyway, your probably gonna disagree with what Im saying.

Anyway, I have a few drinks every weekend with my friends. Plus several beers here and there through out the weekend. I wouldnt want to go unprotected on the weekends becuase Im consuming alchohol. I never get drunk. Well not since I was 21 and imature, Back when drinking was a new thing to me and I wanted to out do my friends. Since then the novalty has worn off and Id rather not make myself sick to stoke my ego. I drink every weekend and Im good to drive at anypoint, never more than a beer an hour. So Im in good enough order to carry. I can see the point of not carrying if your drunk, that would be a bad idea. Doing just about anything while drunk is a bad idea, with the exception of going to bed and sleeping it off. I actually think its safer at a bar than it would be carrying at home, because at a bar they will cut you off before you get drunk. Or they should anyway, At home you dont have that precaution. The weekends are the time I figure Id need to carry the most. Thats when Im out and about. During the week, the only place I go is to work. So it doesnt make sense to me to go uprotected during the times Im at the greatest risk because alcohol is present.

matrem
October 6, 2010, 09:06 PM
Having a gun on you is the equivalent to having your car keys in your pocket.

Was going to say just about the same thing.
That .45 parked safely in your holster isn't any more likely to create havoc than an F150 parked safely in your driveway.

Webbj0219
October 6, 2010, 09:29 PM
Just wanted to add another thing. Demonizing alcohol is never a good thing. Or demonizing anything, for that matter. It always leads to extremes. You either become an alcoholic or you totally abstain. Most ppl I know that were raised with alcohol being demonized become alcoholics themselves or staunch teetotalers. And they can usually relate their reason of a close family member that was a drunk for their abstaining or drinking. And the cycle just perpetuates itself. Can alcohol be abused? Absolutely. Thats bad for business for me. Because it breeds more fear and more abstention. The more its abused the less we sell. Ok so how this relates to guns (this is a gun forum) If your responsible I see no reason guns and alcohol cant mix. And if you demonize alcohol, then its better for you to not mix them. Or if your not responsible with how you drink then you should leave the gun at home. Each one of us is the best judge of that, you know if you plan to get drunk. It all comes down to responsibility in the end.

KAK
October 6, 2010, 09:47 PM
If you are impared having a gun on you is a bad idea. If you are not impaired, or not drinking at all there is no problem.

I dont usually drink (maybe 5-6 times a year and I never impair myself, I have been drunk twice in my life and it was in high school), so if I wanted to carry a gun in a sports bar with friends that do drink, I damn sure should be within my rights to do so.

Coolbreeze8804
October 6, 2010, 10:16 PM
+1 for Webbj0219.

It's all a matter of behaving like a responsible adult. I stopped needing somebody to tell me or legislate that behavior a while back... except for the well intentioned supervision my wife provides me of course. :-)

Carl N. Brown
October 6, 2010, 10:36 PM
Drinking while carrying a gun, or being around drunks while carrying a gun, is a bad idea; however, "Guns in bars" is actually code for being able to enter a restaurant that sells alcohol even if you (or most of the people dining) do not drink, and also (last time I checked) barred me from staying in a hotel that had a bar under the same roof as the room that I would be sleeping in. You carry for defense against robbers, muggers, carjackers, etc., while out of the home or traveling; but you cannot make the gun disappear just because you may have to eat at a restaurant that sells alcohol with meals, or stop at a hotel or motel with a bar under the same roof.

.

Dulvarian
October 6, 2010, 11:47 PM
Here's a more relevant question, really, so slight derail, but I kind of want some opinion on it.

Everyone is talking about alcohol, and bars.

I take Lortab, Valium, and Skellaxin (several times a day). I'm post-back surgical, about 6 months now. Believe it or not, I can consume quantities of narcotics that far exceed the realm of believability and still function normally. In fact, I can't function not taking it. Most people would fall over taking what I take with my morning coffee and cigarette. In fact, if I didn't tell you, you would have no idea that I take it.

Does that mean that I can't make rational, split-second judgments or fire a handgun with reasonable precision? (For the record, my aim is more affected by my still healing shoulder than the drugs. My first mag is about a 2-3" group at 7 yards, but drops to 5-6 by my fifth or sixth.) YMWV with each person and alkeehol based on sex, weight, metabolism, and tolerance. But it is real tough to write legislation based on the previous sentence.

Legally, there are probably a lot of things that I shouldn't do while I take those. I still drive to work, I still use power tools, I still shoot. I do not carry right now, but that is only because my permit is lapsed. Would I carry when I get my new permit soon? I don't know. I'll really have to think about it. I have so much in my system, that you can't actually prove that I had taken any if I was, for some ridiculous reason I was checked, while carrying.

This really is about the stupid legal definition of what a bar is. But what it should be about is a) changing the law to allow for consenting adults to make reasonable decisions. (Not just this one, pretty much all of them, because there is too much legalese. No offense to any lawyers in the room.) b) Making sure that gun owners, especially those that choose to carry one, prove that they are reasonable enough to co-exist with the rest of the populace enjoying their personal freedoms with a reasonable expectation of liberty and various pursuits of happiness. That they are intelligent enough to work within the system, and that there are enough of us to get something done about it.

Here's a question: How many people does it take to get something like prayer taken out of public schools? How many people does it take to get anything with a gun within five miles of it to relax restrictions?

kayak-man
October 6, 2010, 11:47 PM
aren't we, the pro-gun crowd, supposed to be calm, cool, collective, and use logic to debate what rights we have? I'm sorry, but some of the posts on this thread are not what I would expect to see on The High Road. The Brady Campaign has been doing an excellent job with using emotions as the basis for their statements, maybe we should let them continue with that monopoly.

That being said, theres more than one discussion going on in this thread:

1) Carrying in areas where alcohol is served.

Some places have a greater probability of trouble occurring than others. Some places make you feel less safe than others. We could avoid these places. Sometimes we can't. Personally, I feel that just because there MAY be trouble someplace is not a good reason to refuse going there. If there is a safer option, that should be considered, but theres a difference between an increase in probability ( going to a bar), and just being stupid (walking into a gang bar wearing the clothing of a rival gang). As quite a few people have said, theres no reason why a designated driver should be banned from carrying in a bar, or a parent should be banned from carrying in a Pizza Hut. YMMV.

2) Drinking while carrying.

First, are we talking about having a beer, maybe two, or we talking about deliberately getting black out drunk? I think most people are capable of having a one or two drinks, and being safe. I am making the assumption that the gun is staying in its holster. If you have just one beer, do you give up you're car keys? How about your pocket knife? Have you ever told somebody to watch your folding knife because you were drunk?

3) Drinking while shooting.

IMO, this is not the same as drinking and carrying. When you're carrying, the gun stays in its holster, your hand stays away from the holster, and there probably isn't going to be a problem. If you're shooting though, well, thats when IMHO sobriety is a very good thing.

I forget whose Sig line it is, but "Freedom is not certified safe." We can not expect that laws must be written to lowest common denominator in society. I don't think the ideas behind our constitution had to do with limiting freedom because something MIGHT happen, or that an entire community should be penalized for a few individuals.

This just my opinion, your mileage my vary.

mljdeckard
October 7, 2010, 12:26 AM
This is one way of many in which we as a society have been conditioned. to believe that guns in a place where people drink is likely to cause problems. We as gun owners and permit holde4rs should place the emphasis on education.

In Utah, I have gone into bars while carrying for business reasons many times without drinking. Not illegal, no big deal.

Boberama
October 7, 2010, 01:20 AM
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/1964966/480/Picture-Box/facepalm.jpg?v0

Ugh.

Drinking while carrying: Stay under 0.08. You can buy a breathalyzer here: http://www.buy.com/prod/personal-breathalyzer-alcohol-tester-keychain-with-parking-meter/q/sellerid/23093153/loc/67984/216024578.html

Drinking while shooting: No.

Carrying into bars, etc: Yes!

lwknight
October 7, 2010, 02:38 AM
Carrying a firearm is the same as being on duty whether your in it for yourself or your family and other innocents are covered.
If you are getting snockered , you have no business with a firearm because you are not fit for duty. Same as driving. I hear ya , saying that it stays holstered. What if something does go bad and you feel the need to act? Being intoxicated you will be more like a just add danger to innocents.
If I feel like partying , I will find a safe place where I don't have to watch my 6 and I will not even have a fire arm at hand.

How can anyone say that using common sense where guns and alcohol are related , be in any way anti-gun or pro-gun control?

Going to a known trouble spot just because you feel like it is not prudent. And then adding to that , getting yourself in a compromised position by drinking is even stupid.
A drunk with a gun is no good to himself or anyone else.

I think that one of the major argueing things here is that different states have entirely different bars. There are huge differences between the northern states local area family gathering place where you can get a burger,chip and drink and the southwestern bars where fights are a normal daily routine.

I have traveled 40 states and visited several bars in a good many of them. I have been in bars where I was lucky to get out with my skin in tact. I have been to bars that are really nothing more than a coffee shop that serves beer and nothing exciting ever happens. In West Texas, you would not want anyone to be armed in a bar. If you don't believe that , just go visit a local " do-drop-in" honky tonk and stay awhile and observe.
When they get into a brawl , its everyone for himself and if someone pulls a knife, well , even rednecks would consider him a low life POS excuse of a human being and if he pulls a gun , they might just kill him.

Give some consideration to the fact that one person has a totally different idea from another of what a bar is.

General Geoff
October 7, 2010, 03:10 AM
How can anyone say that using common sense where guns and alcohol are related , be in any way anti-gun or pro-gun control?

"Common sense" was the driving force behind every gun law on the books to date.

Common sense ain't so common anymore.

What if something does go bad and you feel the need to act? Being intoxicated you will be more like a just add danger to innocents.

Do you have any proof of this whatsoever? Other than chanting that it's just common sense?

lwknight
October 7, 2010, 04:11 AM
Anyone coming in the bar gets frisked. If they don't have a gun , one will be issued.

SuperNaut
October 7, 2010, 09:39 AM
snockered, intoxicated, partying, drunk

Yeah, covered long ago on page one or two of this thread. Carrying while any of the above is already illegal - everywhere.

Sam1911
October 7, 2010, 09:45 AM
Carrying while any of the above is already illegal - everywhere.

Except in PA and multiple other states where it is not illegal.

rbernie
October 7, 2010, 09:48 AM
Do you have any proof of this whatsoever? Other than chanting that it's just common sense? Of course not. Even better, just like CCW OC and other such things, those states that have more permissive environments statistically show no greater issue than those states with more stringent laws.

But it's always touted as 'common sense' that making a law is somehow going to stop bad people from doing Bad Things and keep good people doing Good Things. <sigh>

SuperNaut
October 7, 2010, 09:56 AM
Except in PA and multiple other states where it is not illegal.

Oops I forgot about PA. Actually your comment brings up a more interesting discussion to me; what states do not prohibit CWI (Carrying While Intoxicated), and is it a problem for them?

CoRoMo
October 7, 2010, 10:21 AM
If you are getting snockered , you have no business with a firearm...
What if something does go bad and you feel the need to act?
This has been covered a few times in this thread alone. If you chose to leave the gun somewhere else, you might get killed. That's what could happen when you are helplessly disarmed.

The Bushmaster
October 7, 2010, 10:21 AM
Missouri just relaxed the law on carrying and drinking. Yes we can go into bars and cocktail lounges armed and have a couple of drinks. We, however, can not make a fool of ourselves and do something stupid. We still can't drive and drink which is fine by me.

It does seem that Missouri figures that we are adult enough to know when to stop when carrying a firearm.

It's also nice that we can have a beer or glass of wine with our meal in restraunts again.

ByThe Way...so far no one has left a bar or restraunt with a bloody mess behind them.

At present I have no problem with having a responable beer or two while in public and applaud the change.

If you can't control your drinking habit you probably can't get a gun permit to carry anyway.

Ragnar Danneskjold
October 7, 2010, 10:47 AM
I believe all gun laws should be based on the actions of the person in question, not on where they happen to be. I would go as far as to say that I do not think there should be any location based gun laws. Even courthouses, government buildings, schools, etc. If a person is doing something wrong or dangerous, prosecute them for that. The location is irrelevant.

CZguy
October 7, 2010, 11:44 AM
If you can't control your drinking habit you probably can't get a gun permit to carry anyway.

In most cases you are probably correct. But I have a brother in law for an example of how the system can fail. (He also manages to drink and drive daily, and not get a DWI......go figure)

Ragnar Danneskjold
October 7, 2010, 11:46 AM
In most cases you are probably correct. But I have a brother in law for an example of how the system can fail. (He also manages to drink and drive daily, and not get a DWI......go figure)

Not to threadjack, but have you told anyone in an authority position about this? They day he hits and kills some 17 year old kid coming home from track practice is going to be the day you'll wish you had...

Dnaltrop
October 7, 2010, 04:29 PM
Threads like this make me happy to be a CCWing, Teetotaling Designated driver.

So many drunk people, no alcohol to make the karaoke tolerable for me,

However, I'll never have to worry about my judgement being chemically impaired when people start throwing chairs.

Webbj0219
October 7, 2010, 09:07 PM
Some people out there cant handle alcohol. I think different ppl have different things that there prone to. Like gambling for instance. When I lived in Nevada I gambled on occasion, I lost some money, then decided there were more interesting things to do out there, like shooting. But there are some people that get addicted to gambling. They cant handle it, they cant do it in moderation. Then they fall behind on there bills and end up on the street if they dont get help. Same thing with alcohol. Some ppl can control themselves and some cant. For me I have no desire to get drunk. If your the type that cant drink in moderation, then you should probably be seeking some proffesional help instead of debating carrying and drinking. People prone to alcoholism should avoid alcohol altogether. The ppl that arent, I dont see a problem carrying as well.

mustang_steve
October 7, 2010, 10:27 PM
Being drunk and armed is bad news...some people may be able to be responsible enough to not do anything stupid...but if the need for defense arises, they're going to be far more likely to screw up the shot and possibly hit someone else accidentally.

In that manner they do not mix. While I don't see a problem with having ONE beer with dinner at a restaurant armed...I do see a problem with firing that weapon while intoxicated, as it does open up a whole other legal can of worms at the least, let alone if the very minor impairment was all it took to have one of those horriffic screw ups people hear about in papers from time to time.

Sober folks should be allowed to carry in a bar, I see no issue at all with that.

yeti
October 8, 2010, 12:05 AM
I stopped yesterday, on the way home from the range, at a bar. Not only did I have 2 great mugs of Trout River draft but I was OCing. After slacking the powerful thirst I had worked up, I left the bar and drove home, amazing thing is no blood was spilt ( and no one put a "shoot me first" sign on my back either). No drunken brawls, no sudden outburst of pent up rage freed by my consumption of alcohol, not even an ND when I got home, nor a wreck on the way home either.

This idea that we need some laws to keep honest people honest is a rather large wagon load of horse apples. I don't mug old ladies because there is a law against it, and if there were no law I still would not mug old ladies. Honest people do the right thing simply because it is the right thing to do, a law makes it no 'righter'. There is nothing wrong with going into a bar heavy, having a couple of drinks, and going about your business. Unlawful acts committed while under the influence are crimes on their own, there is no need to pass more laws making perfectly moral and acceptable actions a crime simply to keep the honest honest.

May as well make breathing while armed a crime; it is a well known fact every crime committed with a firearm has occurred after and usually during the act of respiration. If you make it illegal for every honest man to breath he will stay forever honest.


And some of the safest and most mannerly bars I have ever been in were hardcore biker bars. For some reason manners were held in a very high regard. But then that was back in the 70's and 80's, so the clientele of those establishments may have changed over the course of the years, but inside their facilities they were a very courtly and polite society. A little rough-hewn and unpolished, but always very polite.

fireside44
October 8, 2010, 07:55 AM
And some of the safest and most mannerly bars I have ever been in were hardcore biker bars. For some reason manners were held in a very high regard. But then that was back in the 70's and 80's, so the clientele of those establishments may have changed over the course of the years, but inside their facilities they were a very courtly and polite society. A little rough-hewn and unpolished, but always very polite.

No, they haven't really changed. So long as you are respectful they are extremely polite and their bars are among the safest. Troublemakers and undesirables are usually weeded out at the door.

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