M1 Abrams Shotgun.............PULL!


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hillbilly
December 15, 2003, 03:11 PM
Ow, quit it................

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m1028.htm

hillbilly

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Justin
December 15, 2003, 03:19 PM
http://mindscraps.com/s/contrib/blackeye/Eyecrazy.gif

Holy cow!

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/m1028_pic1.jpg

Image taken from the above posted link.

Dave R
December 15, 2003, 03:29 PM
Hey, tungsten is legal for waterfowling, right? 500M range is more than enough for pass-shooting high-flying geese....

Seriously, though, didn't the USMC use canister shot to good effect in the early battles on Guadalcanal? Turn a long-range anti-materiel weapon into a medium-range anti-personnel weapon.

Langenator
December 15, 2003, 03:43 PM
The linked page also states that the round for close support of friendly infantry in the assault...

Um...I'm an infantryman...having a tank fire something like that anywhere near me would be cause for some serious pucker factor.

Nathanael_Greene
December 15, 2003, 03:45 PM
The use of canister goes back to the days of Gustavus Adolphus and the introduction of light artillery. Its effectiveness is legendary.

Use in tanks has been somewhat limited, if my history is correct--usually tanks used machine guns to on infantry.

But talk about your nasty weapons! I think in Korea, they had flechette artillery rounds--with the effect that some enemy soldiers were literally stapled to trees, walls, etc. Yecch. I believe after that, the rounds were declared illegal.

Dave R
December 15, 2003, 03:58 PM
Yeah, but fleschettes are much nastier than plain ol' tungsten balls, right? :confused:

fiVe
December 15, 2003, 04:04 PM
Yowsa! I would NOT want to be on the receiving end of that thing!

buzz_knox
December 15, 2003, 04:18 PM
Yecch. I believe after that, the rounds were declared illegal.

Nope. Flechettes are still manufactured and used by the US today. For example, they are used as a warhead option for the Hydra 70 2.75 inch rocket.

Sam Adams
December 15, 2003, 04:22 PM
Now we know how the ducks feel...

WilderBill
December 15, 2003, 04:35 PM
Grape for the 21st century.
Hey I bet that would work pretty well against low flying helocopters!
Large scale duck hunting. ;)

Silent Bob
December 15, 2003, 04:37 PM
I believe canister rounds were used extensively in Vietnam, fired from M48 tanks and the like. I believe the ones fired by howitzers were referred to as "Beehive" rounds.

Correia
December 15, 2003, 04:51 PM
I believe that Sam Adams has one of the best responses I have ever read. :)

geekWithA.45
December 15, 2003, 05:27 PM
:what: YIKES!


I wonder if they're gonna bring back chain shot too?

Griff
December 15, 2003, 06:07 PM
Considering also the influx of tactical UAVs, I'd look for more "shotgun" type rounds in always-popular 40mm, 25mm, 12Gauge, .50 cal...

4v50 Gary
December 15, 2003, 06:32 PM
New weapons system should always be field tested. I know of a lot of pigeons who await reincarnation as swans.

Cal4D4
December 15, 2003, 06:46 PM
So, 1150 tungsten balls. Wonder what diameter these little stingers are?

blades67
December 15, 2003, 06:51 PM
How big would the trap have to be for those clay pigeons?:evil: :neener:

4570Rick
December 15, 2003, 07:16 PM
M1 Abrams PUNT GUN.:p

Nightcrawler
December 15, 2003, 07:30 PM
Holy Hell.

I bet that WOULD be quite handy against unarmored aircraft. (Fast-movers might be zipping along too quickly to hit, but helicopters, propellor-driven spotter planes, etc. would be quite vulnerable).

Yikes.

Langenator
December 15, 2003, 08:57 PM
Was just wondering...120mm...what guage is that?

Navy joe
December 15, 2003, 09:16 PM
M1 Abrams PUNT GUN Almost, M1A1+LCU=World's largest punt gun. :D

Quartus
December 15, 2003, 09:17 PM
flechette artillery rounds--with the effect that some enemy soldiers were literally stapled to trees, walls, etc. Yecch.



Used in the 106mm recoiless rifle, too, in Viet Nam.


Nasty stuff.

Sydwaiz
December 15, 2003, 10:35 PM
I wonder if they make screw in chokes for that.:rolleyes:

El Tejon
December 15, 2003, 10:42 PM
Does the crew have to wear that bright orange colour?:D

Cannister shot for AFVs has been around a very long time. The U.S. made the most use of it (part of the gun culture--the shotgun). The U.S. used it extensively in WWII, especially in the jungles of the PTO.

This was developed for the doggie brass' current fixation on urban warfare. Dust off an oldie, but a goodie. "Everything old is new again. Get out your top hat . . . ."

Little late for Iraq, but just in time for the cities of Syria and Iran.:)

12-34hom
December 15, 2003, 10:45 PM
You got to love that...

I wonder if they make that round with a deer slug..;)

12-34hom.

WvaBill
December 15, 2003, 11:58 PM
Does the crew have to wear that bright orange colour?

No, but the turret has to be painted:rolleyes:

c-bag
December 16, 2003, 02:04 AM
I had a teacher in high school who told us how the Soviets used so called "grape shot" to put down the Hungarian Uprising of 1956.

:barf:

erikm
December 16, 2003, 03:07 AM
A nice solution to a nasty problem (iraqi bandits) :)

I read in the Iraqi Freedom lessons learned (they're online somewhere) that some of the infantry wanted a 40mm shotshell for houseclearing. Now this isn't 40mm but it can probably still be used for houseclearing. One shot in one side, out the other. Messy but it works :D

I wonder what the barrel wear for these things is though.

Cheers,
ErikM :evil:

JShirley
December 16, 2003, 04:22 AM
An HE round from an M-252 is my favorite way to clear a house.

1234...why, yes, they do. It's the discarding sabot penetrator round...

chevrofreak
December 16, 2003, 05:12 AM
i had done a rough calculation previously and determined it to be incorrect.

i now believe the balls to be very close to .35" in diameter

stevelyn
December 16, 2003, 06:08 AM
You know...........if they manufactured those pellets out of Hevi-Shot, they could cut the diameter by 1/3 or more. They could get more pellets per load in the round maintaining the same ballistic effectivness of the larger pellet.:D
I wonder how many pounds of Blue Dot they use to push that load?:what:

BluesBear
December 16, 2003, 06:26 AM
The M1 Abrams... Now with more balls! :evil:



.35" ? That's 000 right?

Quartus
December 16, 2003, 07:04 AM
some of the infantry wanted a 40mm shotshell for houseclearing.


Not going to do much. The 40mm is a low velocity round - has to be in order to be shoulder fired from that dinky gun. Put enough punch in it to make it an effective shotgun, and you've got one of two things - a gun that's too heavy for an infantryman to carry, or a blown up gun. The existing barrels couldn't take the pressure.

seeker_two
December 16, 2003, 10:11 AM
Looks great.....

...but how am I gonna get an Abrams in my turkey blind? :evil:

Considering also the influx of tactical UAVs, I'd look for more "shotgun" type rounds in always-popular 40mm, 25mm, 12Gauge, .50 cal...

Griff: They already make "shotgun" type rounds for the 12 gauge...;)

EOD Guy
December 16, 2003, 10:26 AM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
some of the infantry wanted a 40mm shotshell for houseclearing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Not going to do much. The 40mm is a low velocity round - has to be in order to be shoulder fired from that dinky gun. Put enough punch in it to make it an effective shotgun, and you've got one of two things - a gun that's too heavy for an infantryman to carry, or a blown up gun. The existing barrels couldn't take the pressure.

Shotshell round for the 40mm grenade launchers have been around for over 35 years and were used in Vietnam. I don't know if they are still made though.

Smoke
December 16, 2003, 10:37 AM
I have no use for that! :cuss:

Reload it with 7 shot, take it to the dove field, one shot.....limit out.


Where's the fun in that?

Smoke


:p


:D

anapex
December 16, 2003, 12:01 PM
I just finished a book about a tankers adventures(?) in Vietnam. Canister is mentioned at least twice in every account of a battle.

Bravo11
December 16, 2003, 02:12 PM
They still had "beehive" rounds for use in tanks in the '80's.
105mm main gun rounds.
Along with what we called "Willy Peters" or white phosphorus.
Would burn though anything(almost).
Another nasty round.

nordaim
December 16, 2003, 02:37 PM
On the Flechette topic, they are still used in canister rounds in Israel.

There are varying reports, but there is a good likelyhood that they are being used extensively against palestinian militants.

nordaim
December 16, 2003, 02:44 PM
000 Buck is .36" as described here:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/12.htm

Brad Johnson
December 16, 2003, 02:57 PM
Was just wondering...120mm...what guage is that?

25.4 mm per inch. 120mm = 4.7244 inches.

Brad

Triad
December 16, 2003, 03:04 PM
I think it would be measured in pounds rather than by guage.

Echo23TC
December 16, 2003, 04:02 PM
Well, if you use the traditional method of gauge determination (the number of lead balls in that diameter that equal 1 pound), a 120mm diameter lead ball weighs 22.6 pounds.

So now the question is, would that be a 1/23 gauge?

And the more I think about it, wouldn't you want some kind of spreader wad in that shot string?:D

BluesBear
December 16, 2003, 04:26 PM
Isn't the barrel rifled already?

That would negate the need for a spreader wad.


nordaim that was a retorical question I asked.
Since I already know that 00 buck is .33" and 000 buck is .36" I presume that you know this also.

So .35 is closest to 000 buck. I was just mentioning this for those few out there in cyberland that might not know and might wish for a reference point.

Disregarding velocity one of these round would be similar to 143 rounds of 000 buck fired all at once. (115 if 3" magnum)

I could have also equated it with .380 FMJ ammo even though .380acp is .005 larger.
11,500 round of .380 all at once would be nothing to seeze at. :what:

buzz_knox
December 16, 2003, 04:30 PM
Isn't the barrel rifled already?

No. Like nearly all tank main guns, it's a smoothbore. The primary purpose of tank guns is to kill tanks, and APFSDS rounds are the best for that. Rifling interferes with the fin stabilization so smoothbores were adopted. HEAT rounds are also adversely affected by rifling (the spin disrupts the plasma jet). IIRC, among first rank armor manufacturers/users, only the British use rifled guns on their tanks but are transitioning to smoothbores.

Echo23TC
December 16, 2003, 04:31 PM
Nope BluesBear, the 120 is a smoothbore.

Dang it Buzz, you beat me out by a minute.

buzz_knox
December 16, 2003, 04:37 PM
You're just a lil too slow on the draw, pardner. ;)

I just had an idea for a THR move: "First Man Posting, Last Man Standing"

BluesBear
December 16, 2003, 05:07 PM
yeah I forgot about that fin stabilization stuff

Quartus
December 16, 2003, 09:42 PM
Shotshell round for the 40mm grenade launchers have been around for over 35 years and were used in Vietnam. I don't know if they are still made though.


Sure you're not talking about the flechette round? They made that in 40mm. Small charge pops the shell out of the barrel, and after a certain distance, the shell explodes, sending the flechettes on their merry way. Could be a shotgun round made that way, but I don't think you'd want to use it for house cleaning! :what:


The 40 mm round has a big casing, but it's mostly empty air. There's a small "high pressure chamber" at the base where the charge is. Standard primer setup ignites the main charge which vents into the main part of the casing, which is called the "low pressure chamber".

JimJD
December 16, 2003, 10:07 PM
I was reading this bit of news out of Iraq, and thought of this thread.
This section in particular:
The raid in the village of Abu Safa, near Samarra and about 60 miles north of Baghdad, began late Monday after insurgents in Samarra ambushed U.S. forces.The U.S. military said its troops killed 11 of the attackers who released a flock of pigeons to signal one another that the American patrol was in range. No Americans were hurt.

Pigeons, eh?
Guess our tankers CAN get in some bird hunting after all!

U.S. snares Guerrilla leader and 78 others (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=5&u=/ap/20031216/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_21)

Langenator
December 16, 2003, 10:24 PM
The raid in the village of Abu Safa, near Samarra and about 60 miles north of Baghdad, began late Monday after insurgents in Samarra ambushed U.S. forces.The U.S. military said its troops killed 11 of the attackers who released a flock of pigeons to signal one another that the American patrol was in range. No Americans were hurt.

Jim, that was my old unit-they don't say it in that story, but that was the Stryker brigade-techinically, they're the 3rd Brigade, SECOND Infantry Division, but they're attached to the 4th ID. One of my buddies commands the company, B/5-20 IN, that was involved. I just sent him a pound of Starbucks' best this afternoon.

For more on that particular story, see here (http://www.tribnet.com/news/story/4524204p-4500868c.html)

And the Stryker guys actually do have shotguns...they're ostensibly for door busting, but hey...birds are good targets too.

JimJD
December 16, 2003, 11:01 PM
Oh wow!
Happy to read that none of our guys were hurt in that one!

And the Stryker guys actually do have shotguns...they're ostensibly for door busting, but hey...birds are good targets too.

I wonder if they have any bird loads handy?

Triad
December 16, 2003, 11:56 PM
Quartus, there was a M576 buckshot round for the 40mm as well as the flechette. IIRC, it wasn't made like a shotgun shell with a column of shot atop a wad, instead it had a layer of 00 shot between two discs, with the disc that sealed the case mouth divided into male and female halves.

Sven
December 17, 2003, 01:05 AM
You know you are a reloader at heart when you look at the cartridge and start asking... "I wonder what a 40 degree case angle would do"

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/m1028_pic1.jpg

Kobun
December 17, 2003, 02:43 AM
Probably the first shotgun round that would be legal for hunting ELEPHANTS! :D

EOD Guy
December 17, 2003, 08:34 AM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shotshell round for the 40mm grenade launchers have been around for over 35 years and were used in Vietnam. I don't know if they are still made though.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Sure you're not talking about the flechette round? They made that in 40mm. Small charge pops the shell out of the barrel, and after a certain distance, the shell explodes, sending the flechettes on their merry way. Could be a shotgun round made that way, but I don't think you'd want to use it for house cleaning!

No, I was talking about the round with the black plastic carrier that contained 00 buckshot in a center cavity. After leaving the muzzle, the plastic carrier dropped away while the buckshot continued on its way.

Willard
December 17, 2003, 09:25 AM
It's is my understanding that the 40mm buckshot round doesn't have much more OOMPH than a 12 gauge round-not any more shot, lower velocity.

Nathaniel Greene, great name! I live about five minutes from Gen'l Greenes homestead!

Quartus
December 17, 2003, 11:47 AM
Quartus, there was a M576 buckshot round for the 40mm as well as the flechette. IIRC, it wasn't made like a shotgun shell with a column of shot atop a wad, instead it had a layer of 00 shot between two discs, with the disc that sealed the case mouth divided into male and female halves.




Cool! Thanks all for the info - I wasn't aware of the shotgun round.

Balog
December 17, 2003, 03:01 PM
Here's some pics of 40mm rounds. The m1001 flechette round. D'oh, it didn't attach. Let's try again.

Balog
December 17, 2003, 03:03 PM
The M433 HEDP round

Balog
December 17, 2003, 03:04 PM
Expanded view of the same round

Balog
December 17, 2003, 03:06 PM
The M1001 flechette round, again. Info taken from http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/40-can.htm

"The 40mm canister cartridge provides a short range anti-personnel capability from muzzle to a maximum effective range of 100 meters for the MK-19 MOD3 Grenade Machine Gun (GMG). The cartridge is used by combat, combat support and combat service support organizations as a force multiplier against ground troops in exposed positions, in extremely rugged terrain, dense vegetation, military operations in urban terrain (MOUT), and other tactical scenarios where the present MK-19 family of 40mm ammunition is limited. The cartridge will be in use Army wide."

Balog
December 17, 2003, 03:08 PM
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m583.JPG

Azrael256
December 17, 2003, 03:10 PM
I wonder if they make that round with a deer slug.. They do. It's called APFSDS-T. It's for taking out those really big steel deer with 125mm guns.

Balog
December 17, 2003, 03:13 PM
No joy finding pics of the buckshot rounds yet, but here's some info. Taken from http://www.edenstudios.net/unisystem/grenades.htm

"M576 - Multipurpose: A moderately common round with multiple potential uses, the M576 is a buckshot-loaded grenade. This makes it the equivalent of a sawn-off 40mm shotgun -- wide spread, high penetration (for buckshot) and thus a very high damage capacity -- at short range. The multipurpose round is not a typical "explosive" grenade -- it is, for all intents and purposes, a really big shotgun shell."

Balog
December 17, 2003, 03:20 PM
Hmmm, I think the green and black round in the bottom left of this pic is the M576. http://www.autoweapons.com/photosn/dd131kand.jpg

Balog
December 17, 2003, 03:22 PM
Here's a three pack of M576. http://www.autoweapons.com/photosn/40mmbucka.jpg

Quartus
December 17, 2003, 05:21 PM
Balog, you have outdone yourself, sir!


:D



Cool stuff. I like the elephant gun better than the M-403, myself. Just looks meaner.

Balog
December 17, 2003, 05:36 PM
Thank you sir, I aim to please. :)

I am completely in love w/ the ole thump guns. They've been one of my favorite guns for a lotta years now. I'd sell a kidney to actually shoot one. An excellent manual on "Old Thumper" can be found here (https://www.logsa.army.mil/etms/data/A/026096.pdf). The pdf is much better quality than many I've seen online.

sniper1
December 17, 2003, 10:56 PM
the only thing left ......................is a pair of smoking shoes!!!:what:

Kobun
December 18, 2003, 03:30 AM
http://www.mr40mm.com/img41.jpg
Eighteen .22LR fired at the same time in this adapter.

http://www.mr40mm.com/img42.jpg
Adapter to shoot your 12 Gauge ammo in a 40mm.

More fun stuff at MR40MM (http://www.mr40mm.com).

ceetee
December 18, 2003, 08:46 AM
Only three, eh? Those things don't come in a six-pack?

twoblink
December 18, 2003, 08:54 AM
So let's say we get the world's biggest cheese wheel.. is this how they make swiss cheese??
:D

Sometimes you see like 100 geese and you've only go like 5 rounds on ya... I use to scratch my head, now I don't..

Quartus
December 18, 2003, 11:05 AM
I'd sell a kidney to actually shoot one.


All it takes is a trip through Basic Combat Training. :D


They ARE a kick to shoot! Even in the 403 version.


You gents has done edumacated me! Thanks!

Balog
December 18, 2003, 12:11 PM
Quartus: they still use 79's in training? With HEDP an' everything? I wonder if the Corps uses 'em in MCT? YAY!!!!![/drools, has joy-gasm]

Ky Larry
December 18, 2003, 12:17 PM
I seem to recall a bomb the U.S.A.F. had that was filled with tungsten cubes about a half inch square. Very nasty stuff also.

Quartus
December 18, 2003, 12:39 PM
Quartus: they still use 79's in training?


Dunno about now - somehow I doubt it. I did my BCT few weeks ago.


Uh, if you call ~1500 a few! :D

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