Another open carry story about Starbucks


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NWdude83
October 6, 2010, 02:26 AM
http://www.king5.com/news/local/Gun-Owners-Claim-Deputy-Violated-Their-Rights-104218483.html

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Wildyams
October 6, 2010, 03:22 AM
"a group of about 35 "open carry" gun advocates -- those who are legally licensed to carry their guns in full view"


uh oh.. I guess I should find out where I can get one of them so called licenses eh?

hso
October 6, 2010, 10:40 AM
What is the focus of discussion on this article? Is it the questioning of Mr. Brewster or is it about the demonstration in response to it? It certainly isn't whether the the reporter got every little fact straight (better they mistakenly said "how" it was legal for the group to OC than that it wasn't).

Russ Jackson
October 6, 2010, 10:58 AM
If people were open carrying at the coffee shop down the street as mentioned I bet the four officers would not have been shot. Why was it brought up in the report? It had nothing to do with this scenerio. I wish Open Carriers would be a little more friendly with the LEO's. It will take time for them as well as unknowing civilians to accept this. Especially when they have no idea it is legal. Trying to get a rise out of a LEO isn't going to help the cause. I know it is your right not to show ID but how it is handled is more important. It just seems like some...not all are looking to get into a pissing match. The last thing a retail wants is a scene with LEO's and Open Carry. I think when you Open Carry you are trying to train others about this option including the Police. While it is new there will be challenges until it is the norm. It will take time be patient...This Is Just My Opinion.

After thinking about it more why not ask the LEO if he would like to see your ID prior to him asking? This would calm the situation and not disrespect the LEO infront of patrons.

Remember when CCW became much easier the local Sheriff Office was hesitant and would ask you fifty questions and now it is an in and out pleasant experience. Be patient and give it time and take The High Road..Russ

hso
October 6, 2010, 11:16 AM
Good point. If you're going to OC with the intent of "educating" the public and LEOs you should understand that being calm and friendly with concerned persons furthers the educational opportunity. If you're not required to show ID, does it spoil your opportunity to educate the public and LEOs on the normality of OC if you insist on not cooperating where not required?

wheelgunslinger
October 6, 2010, 11:38 AM
I wish Open Carriers would be a little more friendly with the LEO's.
I understand where you're coming from on this. I used to feel the same way about Open Carry and firearms activism in general. However, my interaction with Law Enforcement in similar situations to open carry have changed my mind about activism and OC, interacting with the police, etc.
Law Enforcement needs to be met with intelligent and measured activism like this in order for them to review and understand the law and our rights, just like the average person needs their perspective changed regarding firearms in public.
The positive that comes from this is that where Law Enforcement in many areas had a gray area of what they think is the law (many on the road have a notoriously poor grasp of gun rights), but now there is dialogue going on in cop shops and between Chiefs/Captains and DAs about clarifications regarding OC and gun rights in general. There's also conversation between officers after one or two interact with them regarding gun rights.
I've seen this work very well in areas like New Hampshire where members of the Free State Project are interacting from a position of asserting their rights rather than the usual "Yes sir, officer. Anything you say, officer." position that got us where we are now.

It's an adversarial conversation the moment an officer begins interviewing you because they're trained to take control of the situation verbally and psychologically. Not knowing your rights and being able to articulate them in a measured and agreeable way doesn't help local Law Enforcement get any better at handling the encounters that will increase in number as more people OC or CC (where legal) in their jurisdiction.

It's not just the public that need to be made used to the idea that guns are the province of free people. Law Enforcement also needs education on the subject.

I'm happy to help in that regard, as are others. And, I've found I can do it with a smile instead of making it a shouting match or tense negotiation.
The guy in the above story was simply asserting his rights as a free man.
What's so bad about that?

Russ Jackson
October 6, 2010, 12:04 PM
wheel,

I agree that in this video and recording the person seemed to be ok. However we did not see his body language with the LEO. My comments were more about the presumed agenda with Open Carriers. Not the actual agenda: Which is the right to Open Carry. If I was going to assemble an open carry event or events in a particular city. Prior to this I would stop into the local Police Station and inform them of my intentions. That way they could address the Officers about Open Carry and prepare themselves.

Now that the city in which this event took place I am sure all the Officers have been trained on how to handle this situation. People and Police make the wrong decisions all the time. How these mistakes or lack of knowledge of the Law are handled after the original is really the issue.

Walking around with a Gun on your belt and a Chip on ones shoulder is not the way to proceed. In this video it did not seem like a line in the sand was drawn. In others it seems like the Open Carriers were just looking for a conflict.

I wish we could write a protocol on this issue. Especially since it seems to happen all the time...Russ

dovedescending
October 6, 2010, 12:07 PM
I think it hurts your chances of being seen as a friendly neighborhood guntoter :) if you get snarky with the officer. The area, as pointed out, is a little sensitive about guns. I think it is a much better idea to simply smile and show ID, regardless of whether or not it's legally required.

Why do you carry a gun? Is it so that you can get belligerent with people who may tread on your toes a little bit over your 2A rights? Or is it so you can "problem solve a situation" as the fellows on the Magpul Dynamics video say?

:D I do however completely support the convergence of dozens of lawabiding open-carry citizens on one place. That was just cool to see.

NavyLCDR
October 6, 2010, 12:39 PM
Why do you carry a gun? Is it so that you can get belligerent with people who may tread on your toes a little bit over your 2A rights?

This was NOT a 2A rights issue.

Hanzo581
October 6, 2010, 12:47 PM
I have never understood this...criminals do not open carry so stopping those that open carry to see if they are criminals is nonsensical.

wheelgunslinger
October 6, 2010, 12:51 PM
Walking around with a Gun on your belt and a Chip on ones shoulder is not the way to proceed.
Agreed.
However, even when you're a smiling and nice person, you still have to remember that you're in a conversation with an agent of the state who is allowed to lie to you at any point in their interaction with no repercussions including threat of arrest, jail, etc.
So, if you don't know the law and how it applies, they surely will not preserve your rights at any point. Or they may but cannot be relied upon to provide truthful and open interaction like you may believe they should or will.
Of course, there's nothing wrong with being gentlemanly in an interaction with police, regardless of the individual officer's attitude. That's the course of action I take.

NavyLCDR
October 6, 2010, 12:58 PM
This was not a demonstration about the 2nd amendment. It was a show of support for a person who had their 4th amendment rights violated. Waiting for the lock in 5, 4, 3, 2......

Art Eatman
October 6, 2010, 01:13 PM
Click.

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