Arsenal AK74 or HK USP 9MM


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trexpug
October 10, 2010, 02:17 AM
Im getting a gun between the 600-$850 price range and im considering those 2 guns. I have a glock 17 but i have no assault style rifle, which should i get??????:cuss:

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gun addict
October 10, 2010, 02:18 AM
dont see what the point of getting a full sized 9mm USP is is you've got a perfectly good glock , get the AK74

nalioth
October 10, 2010, 03:34 AM
Both are a waste of money.

You've already got a Glock (and if you didn't have it, you could get another fully-functional sidearm from a reputable company that doesn't hate you and overcharges for everything with their name on it).

Anything "Arsenal" is over priced and over hyped. You can get a Century (I know, I know) Bulgarian AK74 for around half the amount you list and spend the rest on ammo.
Crazy thought? It'll work just as well as the Arsenal will.

philpost
October 10, 2010, 09:15 AM
Anything "Arsenal" is over priced and over hyped. You can get a Century (I know, I know) Bulgarian AK74 for around half the amount you list and spend the rest on ammo.
Crazy thought? It'll work just as well as the Arsenal will.

I've heard this complaint before, but I've never heard an Arsenal owner complain about fit, finish, or function. Doesn't mean other stuff won't work, but Arsenal makes a good product.

nalioth
October 10, 2010, 01:17 PM
Anything "Arsenal" is over priced and over hyped. You can get a Century (I know, I know) Bulgarian AK74 for around half the amount you list and spend the rest on ammo.
Crazy thought? It'll work just as well as the Arsenal will.
I've heard this complaint before, but I've never heard an Arsenal owner complain about fit, finish, or function. Doesn't mean other stuff won't work, but Arsenal makes a good product.You don't hear Ferrari owners complain about their cars, either, but they're still just transportation from point A to point B.

Aside from the cosmetics, Arsenal products are no better than any other functional AK.

If you think differently, their marketing techniques have succeeded with you.

briansmithwins
October 10, 2010, 02:02 PM
I mostly agree with nalioth about the Arsenal rifles. OTOH, I've got 2 of them and Arsenal doeas get the details right: Interior of the gas block is chromed, gas piston is riveted in place instead of welded, and the finish is paint over parkerizing. If it's important to you, The SLR-10xF rifles have the only folding stock that's worth having.

Yes, the Arsenal paint can be removed with inappropriate chemicals, but so can other military finishes. Just try soaking your AR in oven cleaner overnight. (Don't actually try that, it'll eat right thru the aluminum)

If you want a rifle that you don't need to screw around with to 'make it right' the Arsenal rifles are good. If you like replacing parts and refinishing a brand new rifle, get the CAI product.

BSW

nalioth
October 10, 2010, 02:27 PM
I mostly agree with nalioth about the Arsenal rifles. OTOH, I've got 2 of them and Arsenal doeas get the details right: Interior of the gas block is chromed, gas piston is riveted in place instead of welded, and the finish is paint over parkerizing. If it's important to you, The SLR-10xF rifles have the only folding stock that's worth having.

Yes, the Arsenal paint can be removed with inappropriate chemicals, but so can other military finishes. Just try soaking your AR in oven cleaner overnight. (Don't actually try that, it'll eat right thru the aluminum)

If you want a rifle that you don't need to screw around with to 'make it right' the Arsenal rifles are good. If you like replacing parts and refinishing a brand new rifle, get the CAI product.

BSW"Making it right" is your opinion.

There are hundreds of thousands of Romanian imports out there going strong, so obviously the things you mention don't bring any negatives.

If Mr. Ruger and Mr. Sturm had followed this line of thought (building guns "the old way"), their company would never have existed.

kwelz
October 10, 2010, 02:38 PM
Yes because badly built guns are good enough right?
Century guns are very hit and miss and the reasons why are well documented.
Badly cut mag wells. Out of spec receivers. Badly done trunnions. canted Front sights, and last but not least bad rivets.

These are not a matter of opinion or speculation.

nalioth
October 10, 2010, 02:45 PM
Yes because badly built guns are good enough right?
Century guns are very hit and miss and the reasons why are well documented.Are you referring to guns imported by Century, or built by Century. Please be specific.
If you're discussing Century imports, please tell me how just adding their import marks makes a gun "hit or miss".
Yes because badly built guns are good enough right?
Century guns are very hit and miss and the reasons why are well documented.
Badly cut mag wells. Out of spec receivers. Badly done trunnions. canted Front sights, and last but not least bad rivets.Have you personally encountered these issues, or are you just repeating something that's been floating around the 'net from years ago? Again, are you referring to Century-imported or Century-produced guns?

All Kalashnikovs have canted parts. They all have mag wobble. Most of the time, these "issues" are unnoticeable, but they're there (and this includes Arsenal products).

kwelz
October 10, 2010, 03:18 PM
Yes I have seen those things first hand as well as listening to comments from people who know a lot more than I do. Mr. Hackathorn has a lot to say about AKs, I tend to listen to him in class since he knows what he is talking about. At our last class I didn't see a single Century. In fact most everyone there had Arsenal or better. And all AKs do NOT have canted or badly fitting parts. In fact that seems to be isolated to the badly made ones.

I can run down to Kieslers tomorrow and go through 20 Century AKs. And of those 20 I bet I could find problems that need to be fixed on 17 or 18 of them. Heck most of them don't even have Chrome lined barrels.

nalioth
October 10, 2010, 03:43 PM
I can run down to Kieslers tomorrow and go through 20 Century AKs. And of those 20 I bet I could find problems that need to be fixed on 17 or 18 of them. Heck most of them don't even have Chrome lined barrels.Again, are you discussing "Century-imported" or "Century-produced"?

I can guarantee you'll never find a Century-produced AK with a chrome lined barrel. They've never used them in production. That doesn't make it a "bad" rifle, just not a milspec one (which, if you stop and think about it, NO AK sold in the USA is milspec).

The Century-imported WASRs OTOH, do have chrome lined barrels.

. . . and "problems" for you may not mean a hill of beans to anyone else (IOW, they may not affect functionality). This is an issue with some "purists", as they want their weapons to be (as close to) exactly the same as a military AK from the Izhmash factory.

"Bad rivets" - "bad" as in cosmetics, or are they missing? If the rivets are holding the gun together, who cares what they look like?
"Out of spec receivers" - Perhaps you're referring to some mystery Century-produced AK. I've never heard about this.
"Badly done trunnions" - I've never heard this one, either.

C'mon, be more specific with your claims.

HorseSoldier
October 10, 2010, 03:51 PM
I've owned a Century and an Arsenal along the way, though both were 7.62x39. The Century had the Tapco trigger pack installed incorrectly with the trigger occasionally failing to reset -- quick fix once diagnosed. The Arsenal had a canted front site that wouldn't zero at 25 meters and was still grouping about 6" left with the windage maxed out. Again, not a huge problem to correct.

Going back to the OP's original question, the long gun makes sense to me, regardless of the specific manufacturer, if the issue is a well rounded gun cabinet. For the same budget, an AR is an option as well, though that's obviously it's own debate that's been beaten to death a time or two already.

kwelz
October 10, 2010, 03:57 PM
Ho much more specific do you want?
When Century imports parts they have a guy sitting there making receivers for the kits to go in. I have seen them vary by as much as .1 inch from one to the next. I have seen rivets witch move freely back and forth in the receiver. I have seen triggers so far off from where they should be that they bind up.

I am not talking about milspec. I am talking about reliability and function. I have never seen an out of spec Siaga that would not function. I have seen it of Century. I have never seen any other brand except century have HALF A FOOT of wobble at the base of the magazine.

Why are you so determined to defend them?

nalioth
October 10, 2010, 04:06 PM
Ho much more specific do you want?
When Century imports parts they have a guy sitting there making receivers for the kits to go in. I have seen them vary by as much as .1 inch from one to the next. I have seen rivets witch move freely back and forth in the receiver. I have seen triggers so far off from where they should be that they bind up.

I am not talking about milspec. I am talking about reliability and function. I have never seen an out of spec Siaga that would not function. I have seen it of Century. I have never seen any other brand except century have HALF A FOOT of wobble at the base of the magazine.

Why are you so determined to defend them?I want to get on the same page as you.

Century has it's name on two types of Kalashnikov - the ones it imports and the ones it manufactures.

Which one are you referring to?

wojownik
October 10, 2010, 06:23 PM
Anyways, back to the OP's question ... at the end of the day, it depends on what you want. If you AK-type rifle in that price range, I'd go with an SGL-21 (Saiga) or an Arsenal. I went with the SGL-21, and am pleased with it, and would recommend it.

I have had several AKs (Romak-1, Romak-2, Romy G Nodak kit, Century Bulgarian, SGL-21). The only clunker in the bunch was the Century, which I disposed of. The rest I have kept.

If you want another full sized pistol, go for the USP if it suits you. I was looking at the USP Compact, but it just did not feel right in my hand (the only HK pistol I've stuck with is the P7).

trexpug
October 11, 2010, 01:36 AM
Thanks guys, im sorta leaning toward the HK USP 45 now and an arsenal ak soon thereafter:confused:

mshootnit
October 11, 2010, 12:16 PM
I have the Arsenal AK74 and it is sweet. I had another one before that was not as good as this one so there is some variance between individual examples. I have not had an HK 9mm but that would be sweet for plinking or defense. I also have a Saiga 5.45 rifle I shortened the stock and put a Russian KO 4X24 illuminated scope on a Belarus mount on there and this is a neat little bang around rifle. Thinking about camo-ing it but not sure how to do that yet.

wojownik
October 11, 2010, 01:45 PM
Might not hurt to wait a bit on the Arsenal AK - maybe K-var will run another special sometime - their sale on SLG's pushed me over the fence to get one of those.

RX-178
October 11, 2010, 02:49 PM
I previously owned a Century WASR, although I'll quantify here that I did NOT sell it because of its problems. I sold it because I was offered a fair price from a friend.

The magazine that came with the gun was one of only two magazines that fit in the magazine well. The other was a 75 round drum.

Bulgarian waffle mags (my preferred magazine for AKs) did not fit. Chinese magazines from my MAK-90 did not fit. Hungarian 20 round magazines did not fit. I had to dremel out the magazine well myself.

The receiver cover was also twisted to the point that it could not be replaced onto the receiver by hand after field stripping. I had to use a rubber mallet to set it into place. The rear sight spring had also lost much of its tension for some reason, and the entire rear sight could be flipped straight up with your little finger with no effort.

I purchased an Arsenal SGL-21 in about February this year. It had NONE of these problems. Magazines fit tightly. The sights were dead on right out of the box. Pulling back the bolt handle felt smooth as glass in comparison, and I didn't even realize the WASR-10 bolt was gritty until I handled the Arsenal. There was completely no doubt about it that the SGL-21 is the superior rifle, and the extra cost does give you extra quality.

nalioth
October 11, 2010, 03:20 PM
I purchased an Arsenal SGL-21 in about February this year. It had NONE of these problems. Magazines fit tightly. The sights were dead on right out of the box. Pulling back the bolt handle felt smooth as glass in comparison, and I didn't even realize the WASR-10 bolt was gritty until I handled the Arsenal. There was completely no doubt about it that the SGL-21 is the superior rifle, and the extra cost does give you extra quality. The same can be said for a standard Saiga, but it has no extra costs.

RX-178
October 11, 2010, 03:35 PM
There is the extra cost and labor to make it 922(R) compliant.

Otherwise it's illegal to use a standard capacity magazine in the weapon.

JHansenAK47
October 11, 2010, 04:02 PM
The same can be said for a standard Saiga, but it has no extra costs.
And no extra features either. Some people don't feel inclined to own a neutered sks look alike or inclined to spend the time to convert it either.

kwelz
October 11, 2010, 04:07 PM
Sorry I am just now getting back to this. I have been busy.

First off Arsenal guns are Saigas. So I am not sure what you mean in your last post.

As for which guns I am talking about.
Not sure which is which. Most of my experience has been with the 1166s, 1405s, and 1496s. (is it sad that I remember the exact models) Wow I sold way to many of those things back in the day.

nalioth
October 11, 2010, 04:12 PM
There is the extra cost and labor to make it 922(R) compliant. If you do the 922r conversion yourself (and going to the extreme - even a gas block / front sight block change is doable by Joe Sixpack), you'll save lots of money over the price of the Arsenal Saiga.

Arsenal has a nice racket going. They serve a very tasty kool-aid to maintain it.

WoofersInc
October 11, 2010, 04:12 PM
Since news coming out of Arsenal Inc throwing their endorsment to Harry Reid in the upcoming election, I can't say I would buy one of their products ever again.

I currently own an Arsenal AK in 5.45x39 but may now sell the thing because of this. I can't support a company that supports someone trying to destroy America.....

RX-178
October 11, 2010, 04:24 PM
If you do the 922r conversion yourself (and going to the extreme - even a gas block / front sight block change is doable by Joe Sixpack), you'll save lots of money over the price of the Arsenal Saiga.

The VAST majority of gun owners are uncomfortable with anything more than a field strip for cleaning as detailed in the manual provided by the factory.

It doesn't help that most manuals specifically recommend against doing a detail strip at home, and plenty even say that doing so will void their warranty.

I currently own an Arsenal AK in 5.45x39 but may now sell the thing because of this. I can't support a company that supports someone trying to destroy America.....

Sell it to trexpug! :D

Hatterasguy
October 11, 2010, 04:54 PM
Arsenal makes a nice product and AK's are cheap anyway. At least for me the fit and finish on any Russian weapon is marginal at best, so I want the best and its somewhat acceptable.

Lets put it this way even the best AK's are not LWRC's or Sig550's finish wise.

JHansenAK47
October 11, 2010, 05:31 PM
First off Arsenal guns are Saigas. So I am not sure what you mean in your last post.
If they have the SGL prefix, otherwise they aren't made by saiga.
Arsenal has a nice racket going. They serve a very tasty kool-aid to maintain it.

Racket or nice commercial saiga conversion niche market. Let's face it saigas are nice and arsenal doesn't convert them at cost. They buy a gun wholesale then turn around convert it which costs money not just in parts but in man hours and tack on their profit to keep their investors happy. Something you don't have to pay for when you do it yourself.
They do make a good product that isn't built on kits or finished at the lowest price point.

To be fair century catches a lot of flak because they finish their rifles like crap so people do tend to unfairly judge a book by it's cover.
Thanks guys, im sorta leaning toward the HK USP 45
Make sure to check out the P7s too.

wideym
October 11, 2010, 07:00 PM
I have 3 Century AKs, one Arsenal, and one home built from a parts kit.

I've never had any problems with the Century AKs, nor the other two, but the Arsenal is the only one I could find with the factory side folding stock and the finish was very nice. Other than that they all perform great with the legendary AK reliablility.

The only 5.45 AK I have is a Century and after I changed out the stock set with a Kvar it looks and feels like an Arsenal.

The price is the only big difference in the two and the only reason I bought an Arsenal was it had the factory side folder and was also $600.

chuckles
October 11, 2010, 07:02 PM
It always appears to be that the only complaints about Arsenal rifles are from people that don't own one. I've owned 4 AKs, 1 Norinco 2 polytechs and 1 Arsenal. The Arsenal is far better than any of the others. I currently own a SAS M7 (underfolder) and a Polytech underfolder and the Arsenal is by far the better rifle. Save your money and buy one, you'll change your opinion. Wait, I know you've owned 3 and all were trash, right?:p

Girodin
October 11, 2010, 07:57 PM
There is the extra cost and labor to make it 922(R) compliant.

Umm if you cannot get it 922r compliant for the price difference you have issues. As to the difficulty if someone cannot handle a the mechanical demands of a basic saiga conversion I'm not sure they can safely handle a gun either.

Arsenal's are over priced for what you get. The fact they are funneling money to Harry Reid in what is likely to be a close and key senate race ought to be enough to make any one person with concern for RKBA issues never do business with them again. Maybe they are investing in another panic buying spree I'm sure the last one was very good for their business, even the lowly Wasr-10 was going for $800 back then.

Wait, I know you've owned 3 and all were trash, right?

No one has said they are trash or said there is any issue with them what so ever. People are simply saying that they offer basically no functional advantage or something like a converted saiga. There was a whole thread on this before and the only difference anyone could point to was that the Arsenal doesn't step you casings which considering most people shoot steel casings and even re-loaders like myself tend not to reload for 7.62x39 who really cares. More over one could buy a few thousand rounds for the price difference anyhow.

If you want to tell me in what way an Arsenal will out preform a converted saiga I'm all ears.

nalioth
October 11, 2010, 08:28 PM
<snip>and the only difference anyone could point to was that the Arsenal doesn't step you casings <snip>Recently imported standard Saigas no longer have the stepped chambers, either.

I've made my position on Arsenal quite clear over the years, and it hasn't changed. Those posts can be found here.

RX-178
October 11, 2010, 08:32 PM
As to the difficulty if someone cannot handle a the mechanical demands of a basic saiga conversion I'm not sure they can safely handle a gun either.

That is out and out elitism, and it is no less offensive than the idea that only police and security should own guns.

Let's say I don't want to void my warranty by detail stripping my Glock 17, which is an even easier procedure. Does that mean I shouldn't own a Glock 17?

nalioth
October 11, 2010, 08:50 PM
Let's say I don't want to void my warranty by detail stripping my Glock 17, which is an even easier procedure. Does that mean I shouldn't own a Glock 17?We're not discussing Glocks here.

"Detail stripping" a Kalashnikov is included in any manual.

ECVMatt
October 11, 2010, 08:57 PM
To the OP, sorry some of these guys rained on your parade. It looks like some have an agenda or at least are very repetitive.

I have an Arsenal and like it a lot. I have had a couple of other AK's which worked great, but were not as nice. I enjoy the overall appearance, fit, and function of the Arsenal much more than the mixed part guns I had before. The Arsenal does shoot a bit better than the others. You might look up nuttnfancy's review of the SLG 21 on youtube. It is pretty comprehensive and addresses some of the other AK opinions out there. If you have the money, they are worth it to me. If you are looking for a beater truck gun then some of the others might serve you just as well for less dollars. Good luck and enjoy whatever new gun you buy.

RX-178
October 11, 2010, 09:24 PM
I will point out that Girordin did not limit his remark to kalashnikov rifles either.

His choice of words was that if someone was not comfortable or willing to detail strip a Saiga rifle and convert it, that they would not be capable of safely handling a GUN in general. Not just a Kalashnikov rifle.

I find that statement to be unbelievably elitist.

wojownik
October 11, 2010, 10:11 PM
I concur with RX-178. That was an unnecessarily provocative statement. And we're way off the OPs original question.

nalioth
October 11, 2010, 10:14 PM
I will point out that Girordin did not limit his remark to kalashnikov rifles either.

His choice of words was that if someone was not comfortable or willing to detail strip a Saiga rifle and convert it, that they would not be capable of safely handling a GUN in general. Not just a Kalashnikov rifle.

I find that statement to be unbelievably elitist.Call it what you like. I personally can't fathom anyone not knowing how to run a drill or simple hand tools.

Are we (as a society) really becoming so helpless?

jon_in_wv
October 11, 2010, 10:21 PM
currently own an Arsenal AK in 5.45x39 but may now sell the thing because of this. I can't support a company that supports someone trying to destroy America....

Don't do that. You already bought it. Selling it to someone else doesn't effect the company in the least. If its a good weapon keep it.

If it comes to buying one directly from them or getting something else though, get something else.

millertyme
October 11, 2010, 10:22 PM
I'm with the "save your money on the AK" camp. I had a Romy SAR-1 a decade ago that I put nearly 5,000 rounds through with cleaning it and it never once gave me a problem. Paid $275 for it. A buddy of mine has a WASR and it works just fine. Thousands of rounds through it and no problems. He cleaned his once when he got it and decided to see how many rounds it could go before needing it again. Still as accurate as it was three years ago when he took it out of the box, several thousand rounds down the pipe. $375 including two mags. I don't care what they do it, in third world countries you could trade an AK for a loaf of bread. They aren't worth what some people are willing to pay.

philpost
October 11, 2010, 10:24 PM
If you do the 922r conversion yourself (and going to the extreme - even a gas block / front sight block change is doable by Joe Sixpack), you'll save lots of money over the price of the Arsenal Saiga.

Arsenal has a nice racket going. They serve a very tasty kool-aid to maintain it.
Yes, it's a wonderful racket - it's called "providing a service by doing a high-quality conversion using all-new parts, then stocking it at a dealer near you, so that you can exchange $ and get something good-to-go straight out of the box". :rolleyes: I've drank that kool-aid once with an SGL-20, and were $ no object, would do so again in 5.45.
Did you have a traumatic experience sometime with an Arsenal? Because you REALLY seem to hate the brand, for no especially good reason (Wait, there's hype in the gun world?????). Unless it's the wusses who won't do their own Saiga conversions, LIKE YOU THINK THEY SHOULD :cuss:

briansmithwins
October 11, 2010, 10:42 PM
Call it what you like. I personally can't fathom anyone not knowing how to run a drill or simple hand tools.

I'm a tech. I fix broken stuff for a living.

There are plenty of people that should not be allowed anywhere near simple hand tools.

You show some people a screw, they see a funny shaped nail that needs a bigger hammer...

BSW

Black Butte
October 11, 2010, 10:47 PM
Given the current political climate, and the fact that you already have a Glock 17 and no tactical rifle in 7.62x39, I'd go with the Arsenal AK-47.

Dumptruck
October 11, 2010, 10:53 PM
They are backing Harry Reid. Arsenal can keep their products. I am not buying.

seasmoke
October 11, 2010, 11:40 PM
Perhaps you should consider one of these. A bit more spendy to feed...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seitcE7Tf1I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-22tna7KHzI

Cripes guys, lighten-up :confused:

Shadow 7D
October 11, 2010, 11:51 PM
Hum, a reasonably accurate rifle that does everything, and even does some of them well

another over priced handgun, and an HK to boot.
I guess I'll have to take the commie crap

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