Guns for Investment Purposes


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Rayford
October 10, 2010, 01:31 PM
I'm not sure if there is a thread of this nature here. If there is, I would like to have the link. Thank you.

I'm interested in what guns (of whatever sort) would be most likely to increase in value over time. I am now 70 years years young and wish to leave something behind for my grandchildren that will only increase in value as time goes on.

Thanks for your kind and thoughtful response.

Rayford

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Jorg Nysgerrig
October 10, 2010, 01:58 PM
Welcome to The High Road, Rayford.

wish to leave something behind for my grandchildren that will only increase in value as time goes on.
In that case, you may wish to look elsewhere. While some guns certainly do go up in value and some hold their value well, there are much better investment choices.

Beware reading some of these threads, in particular the one from 2008 that advocated buying AR pattern rifles as they were certain to only go up.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=402468
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=476526
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=542405

There are plenty more if you dig around.

If you want to leave them a gun, do it because you want to pass on a shooting or hunting tradition. In that case, you'd be better off getting it now and taking them shooting while you're still around. Those memories may be worth more than just giving them a gun after you've passed on, particularly when they would have to sell the gun to realize the value.

Good luck!

buck460XVR
October 10, 2010, 02:03 PM
The most valuable firearm my grandfather left me is one that he hunted with, showed me how to shoot with and I got my first deer with. To me it is priceless and will be passed on to my grandchildren. On the real market it is worth maybe $600.

Guns for the most part, do not make good returns on your investment. Stick with precious metals or other known investment strategies if you wish to make your grandkids rich. Passin' on your personal favorites, your legacy and your heritage is another story altogether.

GunsAmerica Fan
October 10, 2010, 02:25 PM
I wrote an article about this called "Buy Guns Not Gold" that is fairly comprehensive about why sporting arms, including high grades, are a better investment than gold, black guns and antiques. The link is here:

http://forums.gunsamerica.com/yaf_postst130_Buy-Guns-Not-Gold--A-Better-Investment-in-the-Age-of-Uncertainty.aspx

People on THR generally request an excerpt instead of just a link so here it is:

Imagine for a minute that the United States Treasury made a million dollar bill note. You know, like a hundred with Benjamin Franklin on it, but a million instead of a hundred. Then imagine that someone gives you one of those million dollar bills, tax free, yours to keep. The only other detail is that you aren't allowed to spend any of the million bucks for ten years, but you can invest it in something or somethings for a potential return to live off of between now and then. Then, at the end of ten years you can only live off of the million bucks itself. You can't keep any of the money you make between then and now after the ten years, and that includes a return on investing the million.

It may sound complicated but it isn't. This is the story for many people facing retirement in ten years. They have a "nest egg" of principle and they need to keep the principle in tact for retirement, when they plan to live off of it. Until that time they would like to see a return on the principle, but the most important thing is to not lose that nest egg.

Would you take that million bucks and just keep it stored in that million dollar bill? Bank savings accounts have interest rates in the negatives right now and probably for the foreseeable future. You aren't losing anything by not being able to earn interest on it. It's not a bad little storage system, a million dollar bill. It is portable, compact, and you can hide it easily. Banks can fail, but do countries fail? Will that million bucks be worth a million bucks in ten years?





Would you buy gold with that million bucks? We all hear that gold is todays safest investment, but gold goes through some huge ups and downs. If you are smart you will most likely say that you would split up the million bucks across several forms of investment, to diversify your risk. But what is low risk and what is high risk today? Government bonds are thought to be low risk. You can even get some that adjust for inflation. But America is outspending its tax revenues by the trillions these days. Would you lend your money to a compulsive gambler with a AAA credit rating if you knew his income had been slashed by bad times and that he was going to continue to go to the casino with all of his borrowed money? What else would you call stimulus and bailouts other than high stakes gambling? And I don't like the house odds.

No matter which way the economy turns, someone is going to lose. That goes for putting your money in gold, real estate, stocks, bonds, US currency, foreign currency, just about everything...

Except guns.

SaxonPig
October 10, 2010, 02:48 PM
#46

Firearms as investments.

46. Guns are generally not the best investments. There are more profitable ways to make money in the long term. Granted, recent economic events have proven disastrous for many investments, particularly in the stock market, but over time more money can be made via traditional investments than by hoarding guns. It generally takes many years for guns to appreciate enough to make a clear profit and by then inflation has wiped out most of the gains.

----------------------------------

I suggest buying gold (despite the previous post).

I have a Colt 1911 that I bought new in 1973 for $135. Now it's worth about $600. In mint condition it would be worth around $1,000 or so. Had I bought $135 worth of gold in 1973, it would be worth about $2,000 today.

That money invested in the stock market would show even more profit by now.

Guns are not inflation proof. Inflation devalues EVERYTHING.

Hatterasguy
October 10, 2010, 04:57 PM
Buy a solid property in a good area and it will way out preform firearms.

I'd recommend a high end rental, lots of good deals these days. Set it up in a trust and your grand kids will probably have their college paid by it.

bluetopper
October 10, 2010, 11:32 PM
Ammunition is probably a better investment, but in firearms I would choose anything that shoots .223 or 7.62x39.

About 10 years ago I thought about buying a few crates full of SKS rifles to keep. I wish now I would have.

Or my favorite; handguns. I would choose anything in blued steel and walnut. Polymers need not apply.

orionengnr
October 10, 2010, 11:42 PM
Yep. With the single stoke of a pen (Executive Order, or the signing of a UN Treaty), all of your guns and ammo could become worthless (or worse).

Likely? Perhaps not.
Possible? Yes.

Tommygunn
October 10, 2010, 11:45 PM
Guns are not really a terrific investment insofar as making $$ or expecting them to become megavaluable.
I inherited from my father:

1.) Browning Auto 5, FN made circa 1950. Yes, it is a model no longer made, and a FN version. It's nice. But it really isn't that valuable; there are LOTS of Auto 5s out there.

2.) M-1 Carbine, Inland, 2-44 marked barrel. It saw the last year of WW2 and Korea. My father brought it back from Korea. It sat in a closet from about that time until I inherited it. The gunsmith who adjusted the rear sight for me so it would shoot straight offered to buy it as he'd never seen a carbine with an action in that good a condition.
Well, I suppose that's maybe a + 1/2. But OTOH it's an Inland and that's the most numerous version and it is not a collector desirable carbine, so maybe -2 there .....

3.) Remington 550-1 (semi-auto .22 rifle). One of Remington's less expensive .22s. Good reputation for accuracy ..... but not really valuable. Why? There are a LOT of .22 semi autos around. Woopdedo.

4.) Remington Model 17 20 gauge shotgun. This became the basis for the Ithaca 37 12 gauge shotgun; it was John Browning's last repeater shotgun design. It was old when my father owned it. It works OK but I'm a bit leery about firing it .... it's retired in favor of 12 gauge guns.

None of these guns have become spectacularly valuable. They're all common workijg guns. They are valuable to me but that's because they belonged to my father.
But the rest of the world .... they don't care.

Maybe a original 1860 Colt Army, with Nimshke engraving, solid gold plating, unfired, in near 100% condition, fully documented....now THAT would be valuable. But you'd pay for it what it's worth....and little if any gaurantee with it. For that you'd have to "have $$ to make $$$$$$$" if you know what I mean.

essayons21
October 11, 2010, 01:40 AM
An interesting article on the Colt SAA vs Gold as an investment.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/story/print?guid=F23556EC-9156-402A-95FF-26D446FC8EF4

gbw
October 11, 2010, 01:47 AM
If you want to leave them some guns, go ahead. It's a nice thought.

I would NOT use guns to pass any significant part of my estate. Guns are high maintenance, and the returns likely will not match more traditional investments, - equities, debt, real estate, etc.

So they generally aren't the best of investments, but if you choose carefully they won't be a disaster and it will be more personal and maybe mean more to them than Krugaraands.

If it were me, I'd choose a high quality mint or near mint condition gun, something with history, no longer made, that includes all original packaging, tools, etc. E.G., something like a first year S&W M29 6.5" or a M57 4", or an old mint Winchester M12 high grade, or an old mint M94, many colts like a M1911 commercial .38 Super, Walther PPKs, WWII guns, Winchester 70s, etc. Guns everyone would love to own. They won't be cheap. Or high quality new guns, any that appeal to you, wouldn't be a bad choice.

Justin
October 11, 2010, 02:29 AM
If you're thinking of buying firearms as a financial investment, you really need to stop right now and go speak with an investment planner.

At best, most guns will simply hold their value, keeping pace with inflation.

The entire point of investing in something is so that it accrues enough value that you can sell it for more than you paid for it even after factoring for inflation.

On top of that, if you intend to "invest" in guns to a great enough extent that you could live off of the money made from selling them, you'd still have to manage them. How/where would you store them? How many guns would you have to physically take possession of in order to generate anything approaching a useful level of wealth from their sale?

Unless you're hanging out at Sotheby's, its highly unlikely you would generate that sort of money from the sale of even a dozen collector-grade guns.

Right now, even in a down economy, there are still plenty of mutual funds that are performing reasonably well.

tuckerdog1
October 11, 2010, 08:23 AM
Not such a good way to make money. True, some may increase in value, but just how much? Sure, pick up a $1,000 firearm, and a few years later, it's worth $1,200. Big deal:rolleyes: I'd rather just shoot and enjoy it.

Tuckerdog1

mdug59
October 11, 2010, 01:37 PM
You need to clarify your investment intentions.How much are we talking here and how many grandkids are involved.
Like what most have stated is true,financially your not going to get a big return on your investment.Maybe what you intended wasnt that you wanted to leave them funds to retire on? If what you were looking for was a good quality firearm (perhaps with some history behind it) that will appreciate somewhat,but more impotantly will be something your grandkids will want to pass on also then we are talking a whole other animal here. My vote would be the new old standbys. By this I mean the reproduction type of firearms(a history lesson to go along with it would be nice).I too would like to leave my young ones a piece of our heritage and the knowledge of how it played a role in their history. And like you I would prefer it not turn out to be a dud.

Tommygunn
October 11, 2010, 01:38 PM
At best, most guns will simply hold their value, keeping pace with inflation.

There; that is about the most succinct way of expressing "guns as investment" I've seen yet.

mdug59
October 11, 2010, 01:43 PM
As an example I just bought a series 70 reintroduction in stainless (no telling how my kids will treat it). That along with a nickle plated Colt 45 peacmaker repro.

Smokey Joe
October 11, 2010, 01:50 PM
Rayford--I have a relative who made his living for a number of years, buying and selling high-end double-bbl shotguns. However, (1) he had to become an expert on double-bbl shotguns, and study and keep up with the market on same, and (2) his weekends were almost all chewed up with gun shows at which he was a vendor. He did make money, and he did enjoy it, but it was a job of work.

As above posters have thoroughly pointed out, there are several far better investment opportunities if what you want to do is make money. As for giving the grandkids an important emotional legacy, I agree with the above posters who say take 'em hunting, take 'em shooting, and give 'em each a gun that they enjoyed with you--No money there, but they'll hang onto and cherish those guns for life!

It has been pointed out many times that no asset class out-performs dividend-paying common stocks in any given 20-year period. The downside is that there again, to make $$ in the stock market, you have to study up and keep on top of it.

There just ain't no free lunch.

mdug59
October 11, 2010, 02:02 PM
Have you all seen Hickocks review of the Colt WWI reissue on Youtube? I think If you did a video like that along with the gun and all the trimmings it would be an perfect gift to leave your grandchildren(I'm partial to colts if ya havnt noticed)

mdug59
October 11, 2010, 02:37 PM
If you have the funds contact the different manufactures and see what they will do for you in the custom arena.

daorhgih
October 11, 2010, 02:56 PM
You can't eat either one. When it becomes illegal to shoot your food, "some" gold will still be legal. Buy that kind, and in small denominations, and also hoard silver. A golden gun with silver bullets. Even that is worth only what it will bring when sold. Recently I swapped a box of 20 .40 Silver-tips (bought @ $8) for a tank of gas, worth $45. I have also traded a Morgan $1 for that same amount of gas. Too few kids really appreciate what they inherit -- often, even their name. Invest wisely. It's almost impossible to send a gun to a safe-haven investment site, like a Swiss bank, but gold is as free as the birds to squirrel away, when you know what you are doing. Keep your precious guns in a safe-deposit box, not in your safe at home. I'll answer PMs about gold, but I am a total civilian, nothing to gain, and offering only 73-yrs worth of experience, some of it bad.

HGUNHNTR
October 11, 2010, 04:21 PM
The market for investment grade firearms is incredibly small, liquidating firearms for profit is sometimes not even possibly without the right bidders. Gold on the other hand is easily liquidated.

Also consider the possibility that a future grandchild may not be able to legally own a firearm.

GunsAmerica Fan
October 11, 2010, 07:09 PM
I don't know how you guys can try to give out of the box investment advice about mutual funds when our country is on the precipice of a complete meltdown. What happens to the mutual fund if, like almost happened last week, one automated billion dollar transaction sends the market finally into the tailspin where it belongs. Consumer confidence is at the lowest point in 20 years and the unemployment numbers are drastically worse than the government admits. As you said, and I said in my article, guns are not going to have sharp increases in value generally, but they do easily track inflation and they will never be worth nothing, like your mutual funds might be. And compared to gold, they are not at the historically highest prices in history. No matter which way America goes guns are a great place to store you money, and if you do some research on high grade guns, you can make decent returns as well, without going to Sothebys Justin. High grade guns in the 5k-50k range change hands every day and many specific guns and engravers have the potential to make double digit returns.

You can also do research in the eclectic market for what people are starting to collect that they never used really used to, like top break turn of the century hardware store guns, or browning pistols that have had recent sharp increase in interest, and fish the online websites for sellers who don't know that these guns have increased (not that they can't go buy the blue book of course but many don't). It's a lot less risky than mutual funds when we all know life as we know it could collapse any day.

mdug59
October 11, 2010, 08:08 PM
everyone is getting carried away...the OP wanted to leave a little something for his grandchildren....he likes guns ....so....does anyone know what a good purchase for his grandkids might be.I would think anything made in Amerca at around the $1000 level(give or take a few hundred),probably stainless or nickle plated,medium caliber (not too small,not too big)and with some wood on it.

Hoppes Love Potion
October 11, 2010, 08:45 PM
Both gold and guns are likely to go up in value in the near future and probably stay that way. But I can see some futures where it will not be legal for citizens to own either one.

It's much easier to hide gold, and easier to cross a border with gold (in fact, an ounce of gold as a bribe will reportedly get you across any border in the world without papers).

On the other hand, having a supply of guns in difficult times, and being able to arm those you care about, might be the difference between life and death. Or it might get you swat-teamed.

I'd definitely get some of both with my million bucks. Put it this way, if you expect to survive the coming collapse, get more gold. If you don't expect to survive it, get more guns.

stchman
October 11, 2010, 09:03 PM
For the most part guns are not great investments. OTOH, guns don't lose money. If you pay $500 for a gun today, take very good care of it, it will be worth probably a little more than you bought it.

Now SKS rifles, Mosin Nagants, Mausers (guns that were really cheap about 10 years ago) are worth 2X to 3X more.

As inflation goes up the firearms you buy to day will be worth a touch more later. Also, if a SHTF scenario ever comes about they and your ammo will be worth their weight in gold.

HGUNHNTR
October 11, 2010, 09:26 PM
It's a lot less risky than mutual funds when we all know life as we know it could collapse any day.


What saavy investor is going to be willing to purchase your high end collectible if the world as we know it comes to an end?

There are much safer bets for your cash than guns.....unless you are profiting from the transactions like Guns America does.

bushmaster1313
October 11, 2010, 10:34 PM
No gun will always go up in value.

But these will likely be considered to be valuable guns for a long time:

Ithaca 4E Knick trap guns in unaltered condition
Colt Python revolver
Military issue 1911 pistols
Winchester factory riot guns in Model 1897 and Model 12
Winchester pre-1964 Model 70

22-rimfire
October 11, 2010, 11:24 PM
What saavy investor is going to be willing to purchase your high end collectible if the world as we know it comes to an end?

Probably someone who has bought a lot of gold.

I think guns are generally a poor investment. You can make some money, but they are not very liquid. Many are saying to put up to 10% of your investments in gold bullion. I guess a bit tied up in firearms is not such a terrible thing. I have enough tied up without considereing them an investment although I do dabble in some high risk stuff because I like the stuff.

GunsAmerica Fan
October 12, 2010, 10:36 AM
Why isn't it possible for me to post here without someone pointing the discussion at GA? I never said buy or sell anything on GA.

With all due respect, because you clearly know something about traditional investing, not everyone loses when there is a collapse, and there are many countries that will do fine, and people even in our country who will do fine. High grade guns have value to people all over the world and plenty of those people will have money. What do you think columbian drug lords collect? What do you think european old money aristocrats collect? GUNS! And high grade guns are a status symbol of wealth the world over.

I did write a 6,000 word article about this that I linked to and it is fairly comprehensive about exploring the thinking behind traditional investing, gold, and guns depending on which way America goes, and none of us know which way that is.

Guns are the best place to put your money right now for insurance and liquidity (real estate lacking that) and how much money you have to put away governs what kinds of guns you buy. What do you think has more of a guarantee that it will be worth at least what you put into it five years from now, a $5,000 Rizzini, a $5,000 Barrett, a $5,000 mutual fund, $5,000 bar of gold or $5,000 in cash?

HGUNHNTR
October 12, 2010, 11:12 AM
Guns are the best place to put your money right now for insurance and liquidity

Best place for liquidity? Can you offload a $10000 english double as quickly as 7 and a half ounces of gold? I think not. You may want to research that one again. Gold, T Bills and other investments are traded on a board. Gun values are left up to the whim of a handful of folks that may be interested in your wares. I am confident there are many more places to sell gold/stocks than guns.

SuperNaut
October 12, 2010, 11:19 AM
Now that the market is flooded with devalued guns I'm guessing that those who bought guns as an investment are not feeling too smart right now.

GunsAmerica Fan
October 12, 2010, 11:45 AM
Today you can sell the gold because the sheep are lining up to buy it, but you will pay a brokerage fee on the buying and the selling. What if in the next five years chinese demand hits the J curve, they open up their currency to actual market value, and the whole world gets bailed out of this mess, and all the worry was for nothing. Your gold may never be worth nothing, but it ain't gonna be worth ten grand my friend. I personally would stick to newer production Italian doubles, not English, but I'm pretty sure it will be worth more than ten grand. Guns work if America does well or does poorly. Gold, traditional investments, and even real estate don't all do well in all situations. Guns do at least "fine" in all situations. You seem to be stuck on the fact that someone has to want to buy that actual gun, but for some brands and especially engravers and types of engraving scenes there is never a question of that.

Supernaut you are actually making my point, the one that is of course in the article. Guns are extremely devalued right now, especially sporting arms. With the recent supreme court decisions there is no reason to believe that demand for guns is only going to increase in the US.

SuperNaut
October 12, 2010, 11:55 AM
An already saturated market that is flooded with even more product equals a massive correction. The price for firearms is about to fall to record lows.

I plan to buy a lot of guns when this happens, not because I'm making an investment, but because I'll be able to get what I want at a reasonable price for a change.

GunsAmerica Fan
October 12, 2010, 12:03 PM
It over saturated with black guns but from what the market annalists are saying who actually track this stuff (I just had this conversation with the guy who runs Rock River), the people who bought the guns during the O bounce aren't selling them. That means that we have a whole new crop of new gun owners out there who can be future hunters, competition shooters, reloaders and enthusiasts. I started our magazine specifically for these people, to lead them to the next step in the path to gun nut, which I believe all red blooded Americans should be.

So, er, you might want to go buy some guns. :)

Carl
October 12, 2010, 12:06 PM
I have a '97 Winchester Trench Shotgun (bayonet lug, bayonet, head shield, etc) made in 1904 that's in great condition (makes me think it was reblued at one time though). It might be worth something down the road.

SuperNaut
October 12, 2010, 12:08 PM
Those who bought at the peak don't have to sell to over-saturate the already saturated market. However, the manufacturers that ramped up supply to meet the demand, do.

Cheaper guns means more guns in the hands of the people who really need them. So the new crop of potential gun owners are entering the market at a really great time.

Jorg Nysgerrig
October 12, 2010, 12:25 PM
So, let me see if I understand this... Someone with a pecuniary interest in the buying and selling of guns is suggesting that I should abandon other forms of investment and buy high-end shotguns with my cash now, because when the economy crashes and "life as we know it could collapse any day", I'll still be able to sell them to Colombian drug lords at the drop of a hat to get the return on my investment.

I'm not sure why anyone thinks that doesn't sound like a solid investment plan.

GRIZ22
October 12, 2010, 12:30 PM
I am now 70 years years young and wish to leave something behind for my grandchildren that will only increase in value as time goes on.


Guns are not great investments. There are guns that will grow in value but you really want to put your money into something that is more liquid. If you want your money to hold its value and make some gains I'd say buy gold.

rbernie
October 12, 2010, 01:08 PM
It over saturated with black guns but from what the market annalists are saying who actually track this stuff (I just had this conversation with the guy who runs Rock River), the people who bought the guns during the O bounce aren't selling them. In many cases, these folk can't justify selling these guns because the guns are worth so much less today than what they paid a year ago. And that, of course, highlights the principal danger in considering any durable good to be an actual financial investment; predicting the market's movements is not easy and certainly not a casual endeavor. The folk that profit by buying and selling guns generally do so because it's not a hobby to them.

So, er, you might want to go buy some guns.Not putting words in anyone's mouth here, but it should be pointed out that nobody should EVER invest dollars that they do not have and cannot afford to lose. If you do not have free/discretionary cash on hand, then you should not be considering buying guns - period.

You seem to be stuck on the fact that someone has to want to buy that actual gun, but for some brands and especially engravers and types of engraving scenes there is never a question of that.Actually, the 'virtual' markets are rife with 'collectibles' that are still waiting for just the right buyer to come along (and that's one of the big reasons why both the auction and non-auction sites have adopted zero-listing-fee policies). It's that much worse in local markets; I know of many storefronts and individuals that simply cannot sell certain high-dollar or 'collectible' inventory specifically because the local market has no such interested buyer.

In the event that I am forced to convert guns to cash or any other necessity, my planning includes almost certainly doing so via the local market (defined as within twenty miles or so from my house). For that reason, I would consider only 'non-collectible' items to be actual investments. Commodities will sell in a localized economy. Collectibles will not.

But back to the OP:

I'm interested in what guns (of whatever sort) would be most likely to increase in value over time. I am now 70 years years young and wish to leave something behind for my grandchildren that will only increase in value as time goes on.
You will be well served to determine the types of firearms that they are likely to use most; the best investment is one that they will be able to use or sell, depending on their specific needs and circumstances. Having said that, I have attempted to set aside a few things for my children that I fear may not be available to them in later years; examples include double-stack 9mm pistols and military-looking semiautomatic rifles. In my case, I am looking at these gun purchases NOT as financial investments but instead as investments in future utility.

mcdonl
October 12, 2010, 01:13 PM
I look at them more like a savings account. I get precious little "spare" money, so when I get a few hundred and I have nothing specific I need I buy a gun... because even though I may loose or make a few bucks, I can always liquidate the guns for other guns or more pressing toys.

GunsAmerica Fan
October 12, 2010, 01:33 PM
So, let me see if I understand this... Someone with a pecuniary interest in the buying and selling of guns is suggesting that I should abandon other forms of investment and buy high-end shotguns with my cash now, because when the economy crashes and "life as we know it could collapse any day", I'll still be able to sell them to Colombian drug lords at the drop of a hat to get the return on my investment.

I'm not sure why anyone thinks that doesn't sound like a solid investment plan.

Yea, I am but lets make it about GunsAmerica instead of the actual OP question and a 6,000 word article I wrote on the subject, just so the mods can give me more demerit points. The article and my comments clearly were addressing the big money investor, which was the major complain of the original answer to my post.

Actually, the 'virtual' markets are rife with 'collectibles' that are still waiting for just the right buyer to come along (and that's one of the big reasons why both the auction and non-auction sites have adopted zero-listing-fee policies). It's that much worse in local markets; I know of many storefronts that simply cannot sell certain high-dollar or 'collectible' inventory specifically because the local market has no such interested buyer.

In the event that I am forced to convert guns to cash or any other necessity, my planning includes almost certainly doing so via the local market (defined as within twenty miles or so from my house). For that reason, I would consider only 'non-collectible' items to be actual investments. Commodities will sell in a localized economy. Collectibles will not.

And that is exactly why I suggested in the article that people with some money to "store" somewhere, not "invest" as this discussion has gone towards, buy regular old Remington 700s, because in a pinch, a deer rifle compared to an AR is only marginally less the path of least resistance should we have a run on banks and actual civil unrest.

I'm clearly not a gloom and doomer as you can tell from the article, but there just aren't any more sound financial vehicles to store money right now than guns. If you have "investments" that you can in fact afford to lose as you notably pointed out, storing 300 model 700s is not so easy, but as investments I feel the high grade market is currently undervalued as long term investments. They have traditionally had returns approaching double digits.

We are talking about two situations here so please don't confuse them. Storing money in a vehicle that "won't be worth nothing" as gold is sold as is a serious thing, but I think guns are much more worthy of investment because they are undervalued historically whereas gold is overvalued historically. Investing is a huge other thing and I have made that argument as well as I can make it already.

As for your local argument, it is 100% sound, but as I answered one of the people who posted to our board, if you want to take your chances that your gold will be worth something if America does have a sudden and violent fall and we do face food shortages and real civil unrest, I am much more confident of my ability to swap an old mossberg 28" 2 3/4" shell shotgun that I paid $200 for, for a dozen #10 cans of Dinty Moore than a gold coin that I paid $2,000 for. And as I explained in detail in the article, the other ways America can and more likely will go show very little risk for your investment to be worth much if anything less than you paid, and there is a decent chance for a small return if you buy stuff right.

Rusty Shackleford
October 12, 2010, 03:40 PM
I'm not going to even pretend I know the best place for you to invest your money, but I will say this with near certainty. DO NOT BUY GOLD RIGHT NOW.
Anyone who suggests you put a large chunk of money into gold right now(as a profitable investment, not as an emergency fund if the dollar goes under) has no idea what they are talking about.

Gold has been steadily trading at new historical highs every few months for over a year now. It is NEVER a good investment strategy to buy near a historical high. Remember what the rule of investing is? Buy low and sell high? Well if you buy gold right now, you will be buying at an all time historical high... you will likely get skinned. Buying gold right now would be like buying a house in 2007 or 2008.

Yes, theoretically you could sell if it keeps going higher and make a good return, but it is far more likely that it will drop back down to historical averages in relation to other goods. In that case, you would be losing a lot of money.

Certain guns might make a decent investment with a lot of research, but your family will appreciate the memories of you taking them hunting/fishing/camping/shooting a lot more than any possession. Just take them hunting with a beater rifle or shotgun and they'll still cherish those guns forever after you die.

I'd give my car, my guns, every cent I have, plus one testicle just to go fishing or shooting with my grandpa one more time... and that's the truth. He died at age 67... younger than you. You never know when your time is up so go into the great outdoors with them this weekend... if not today. Actually, get off the computer and go now.

Tim the student
October 12, 2010, 03:51 PM
Guns are the best place to put your money right now for insurance and liquidity

Eh, I'll pass on that advice I think.

leadcounsel
October 12, 2010, 05:14 PM
In many cases, these folk can't justify selling these guns because the guns are worth so much less today than what they paid a year ago

And hence the REAL issue... they KEY to any financial planning is knowing when to buy and when to sell. Of course nobody REALLY knows... but people make edcuated guesses. For instance, most people on this board could have told you that after Obama was elected, it was too late to get a good deal on a firearm; you needed to wait a year or two for prices to come back down to earth. Well, to nobody's surprise here, two things happened: 1) people who waited panicked and overpaid by buying literally at the top where sellers were naming their price and 2) people who overpaid and could no longer justify owning the firearm (loss of job, didn't use it, etc.) sold at heavy losses, and have flooded the market. In investing this is called a bubble or a spike.

Had ANY of us liquidated our gun collections in January of 2009, all of us would have made HUGE profits.

We watched the same thing when stocks were overbought during the internet bubble. I was a stockbroker at the time and literally had clients paying hundreds of dollers PER SHARE for shares of companies that never produced any product and no longer exist just 10 years later! Ask yourself "Why". Many of these companies didn't produce a single thing and vanished overnight.

We watched the same thing during the housing market boom of the 1990s and early 2000s... Buyers were chasing prices through the roof (literally) and sellers were naming their prices. Loans were easy to get and people were signing on the dotted line for any price. And then the bottom fell out. Why were houses doubling in price every 5 years?

We are currently watching college educations going the same route. For the first time in history it was reported that a college degree may not be a wise investment at going prices because they are too expensive, but loans were easy to get.

And GUESS WHAT ELSE is overbought.... look at the charts on gold. Straight up.

But ask yourself "Why"... What makes gold so precious? Nobody has ever been able to tell me other than, just because. Electronics conductors? Please. Jewelry? Who cares?

I think gold is a suckers market. The Sheeple are being taking to the slaughter. $1300 for an ounce of colorful metal. Foolishness.

To answer the OP question - I DO think that firearms AND ammo are a good investment for a WELL DIVERSIFIED investment class. Like any investment, you MUST buy low. That means that retail is strictly out. It means buying privately, new or near new guns for 20% below retail. Buy your ammo in bulk on sale. Know your guns and ammo. Store them well. Best case you can sell them during a perceived crisis at a large profit, or one of your guns becomes valuable unexpectedly (the K31 has doubled in price in 3 years). Worst reasonable case is that you either break even or, if prices fall through the floor, you have a functioning firearm and ammo - assets to show for it under any conditions.

Other good investments are mutual funds (however I personally think the stock market is rigged, and usually individual stocks are a bad bet, but with mutual funds you spread that risk).

daorhgih
October 12, 2010, 07:30 PM
Queasy logic: "Gold has been steadily trading at new historical highs every few months for over a year now. Well if you buy gold right now, you will be buying at an all time historical high... you will likely get skinned. Buying gold right now would be like buying a house in 2007 or 2008. Yes, theoretically you could sell if it keeps going higher and make a good return, but it is far more likely that it will drop back down to historical averages in relation to other goods. In that case, you would be losing a lot of money." Yes, Rusty, but you don't "lose money" until / unless you sell your gold. "... steadily trading at new historical highs..." This is a trend, Rusty. Follow trends and get rich from them. I have. I've bought in at the beginning of your sentence, and sold off two years later. TWO YEARS LATER. Profit: 118%. In two years. Can a Mossberg claim that?

And if one thinks that stocks are "rigged", DON'T get into Mutuals: "Share the risk, Share the loss." Track single stocks, learn your own plan, and avoid mutuals. They are for dummies.

zombie44
October 12, 2010, 07:38 PM
Forget GOLD, invest in LEAD!







:D:D

daorhgih
October 12, 2010, 08:07 PM
I have 1000-times more in gold, but a substantial amount in brass/lead/primer qizmos. And I am as we speak buying standard issue 1911, CZ, Mossberg, SW, and a lot of others as I find them at "fire sale" prices. The market is quickly saturating on guns, as slow-selling auctions indicate on line, and gold is at a plateau. Powder and primers are fluctuating, I'm buying. Grocery-prices at W-mart are up by 50% since January. Do you see a trend? Guns are becoming "investments" once more.

Hoppes Love Potion
October 24, 2010, 11:55 PM
Not many understand gold. Gold is money. It is a stable reflection of the value of other things. When gold costs more dollars, it's because the dollar changed; gold did not change.

If a new currency was introduced today, what would its value be? Ask gold. How many of them do you need to buy an ounce of gold? That's how much something is worth.

Of course, you could value something in apples, or oil, but they don't work very well as money. An apple changes too much over time. Oil is smelly and hard to carry around. Paper money is just a promise waiting to be broken. If you don't believe this, take a paper dollar to the bank and demand 1/20 oz of gold. You cannot; that promise was broken in 1933. Likewise, the promise to redeem a dollar for 371.25g of silver was broken in 1964.

Gold is money because it works as money better than anything else. It holds value through time. It is portable. It is immutable, extremely difficult to destroy. Toss an ounce in a bonfire, and even though it melts, when the fire cools, the whole ounce will still be there. Pound it with a sledge hammer, and you just get a thinner piece of gold. Drop it in a dish of acid, and gold just sits there unaffected.

If you did want to invest in something to pass down to your grandkids, you could do a lot worse than gold (and a lot better than an expensive Italian shotgun).

nelsonal
October 25, 2010, 01:01 PM
Technically gold's value would change if a major new mine were found that radically changed outlooks of total available gold, or if Goldfinger were to make a huge store of gold unusable for many years (that's an interesting case, as one could still own and trade the irradiated gold even if they never took delivery).

stonecutter2
October 25, 2010, 02:40 PM
Anyone who suggests you put a large chunk of money into gold right now(as a profitable investment, not as an emergency fund if the dollar goes under) has no idea what they are talking about.

Gold has been steadily trading at new historical highs every few months for over a year now. It is NEVER a good investment strategy to buy near a historical high. Remember what the rule of investing is? Buy low and sell high? Well if you buy gold right now, you will be buying at an all time historical high... you will likely get skinned. Buying gold right now would be like buying a house in 2007 or 2008.


I bought an ounce of gold in 2007, when gold prices were at their highest to date. I paid $850. It's now worth over $1300. I could probably sell it for a few hundred dollars profit easy. I'm just saying - just because something is climbing value, doesn't mean it wont' continue to climb, or it could plummet to historic lows. It's the nature of investment.

An important aspect of any investment is what level of risk is acceptable to you. At 70, looking to leave something nice for my estate, my risk level would be much lower than me at being 30 and buying the first .9999 pure gold coin ever issued by the United States Government, from money that my grandma left to me. It was something I wanted to keep and pass on to later generations, and I figured it was interesting enough to have in memory of my Grandma.

To the OP - assess your acceptable level of risk. What if what you bought isn't worth more later on? If you'd like to buy a couple interesting firearms that mean something to you, to leave behind - that will mean something to your heirs much more than just some fancy custom guns that can never be shot.

I recommend getting some firearms that you like, go out and shoot them with your family, then leave them to them. History will decide what the firearms are worth monetarily, but the memories of you shooting with them will be priceless.

For something that might climb in value over time, make your best guess - or talk to/pay a financial consultant, and listen to their guesses. No one knows for sure.

IBEWBULL
October 25, 2010, 02:51 PM
So much is dependant on your location when buying right comes in to play.
I think this sight is one of the best ways to find information on gun values I have seen yet.
The auction sites have a lot of fishing going on there.
If I were looking to invest I would find a local person with some firearm knowledge to assist me.
My investments have not produced much because I get the itch for a new gun and end up selling at a loss or break even way too much.
Example is the Python I traded for a Light Weight Ruger .308 twenty years ago.
Well now I wish I had the Python.
I would look for single action Colts and 1911 Colts now or older Smith and Wessons as always buy low sell high. Quality counts and Buy American we need the work.

daorhgih
October 28, 2010, 11:10 PM
Quoting:"As for your local argument, it is 100% sound, but as I answered, if you want to take your chances that your gold will be worth something if America does have a sudden and violent fall and we do face food shortages and real civil unrest, I am much more confident of my ability to swap an old mossberg 28" 2 3/4" shell shotgun that I paid $200 for, for a dozen #10 cans of Dinty Moore than a gold coin that I paid $2,000 for." This is why I own lots of "Dinty Moore, and a copious rack of 12ga shotties. But I didn't pay for them in Au. "And as I explained in detail in the article, the other ways America can and more likely will go show very little risk for your investment to be worth much if anything less than you paid, and there is a decent chance for a small return if you buy stuff right." True Leadcounsel "thinks" he knows about investing, but he knows jack-shaft about its reality. Buying retail is not as cool as buying at a fire-sale. I do it that way. I am patient and wise, an opposite type to leadcounsel. My re-sold profits in armory exceed 700% so far in 1020. That equals approximately $20,000. My gains in Au not even the IRS will ever know. And sometimes I buy guns using Au.

Old krow
October 29, 2010, 12:34 AM
I am now 70 years years young and wish to leave something behind for my grandchildren that will only increase in value as time goes on.


I wouldn't advocate it as part of a financial portfolio for sure. But, I'll leave mine a few.

Any gun that my grandparents left me is worth far more to me than any other gun or the money that it would cost to buy the gun. Money comes and goes, when there isn't enough, the Feds just have more printed.

gunzee
October 29, 2010, 02:21 PM
What a crock. In 2006, i bought gold for $450 an oz. Now it's over $1300 an oz. How many of your guns have trebled in value over the past 4 years, hmmm? Gold is a far better investment. No laws, no serial #'s, nobody afraid of it, can sell it easily, etc. Get some 1/10th oz coins, and the best price on the net is "The Coin Shop", in Farmersville, NM.

Tom609
October 29, 2010, 03:09 PM
...wish to leave something behind for my grandchildren that will only increase in value as time goes on.

I don't think the OP is looking to have them become independently wealthy. I read that he wants to give them something of quality that will retain its value. I'm 63, have a grandson coming in 6 weeks, and I've thought the thought. If I had a choice, I would today prefer to own a rifle that had been important to my grandfather over a gold coin that he owned.

My gifts to my grandson that I currently own will include:

CZ452
M1 Garand
1903a3
1917 Eddystone
Finn M39
Assorted S&W handguns

Hopefully the list will grow longer and the transfer won't occur any time soon :)

gunzee
October 29, 2010, 03:17 PM
Then he should retitle his post.. Because "nostalgia" has nothing to do with "investments".

dovedescending
October 29, 2010, 03:25 PM
You're an angry man, Gunzee.

Tom609
October 29, 2010, 04:03 PM
His post says nothing about investments, and yes, you're an angry man:)

oldbear
October 29, 2010, 04:21 PM
Raeford, as much as I enjoy all of the firearms I own or have owned most make miserable investments, as most do. If you want to leave something for the grandkids a good mutual fund is the way to go. Not nearly as sexy as a quality Smith and Wesson but a lot more Practical.


There are some exceptions, there is currently listed on Gun-Broker a Smith and Wesson that sold for $70.00, in 1937 and has a bid price as of now $10,300.00 and I expect it will come close to $15,000.00 before the auction is over.

staggerlee213
October 29, 2010, 04:28 PM
If guns were a great investment wouldn't you hear more about people who made their fortunes investing in guns? And I don't mean people who invested in an arms company either.

If you are interested in the well being of your descendants-- invest in their education, or buy them some land/a house/a condo or some indexed mutual funds.

Leaky Waders
October 29, 2010, 06:50 PM
"I am now 70 years years young and wish to leave something behind for my grandchildren that will only increase in value as time goes on."

So it sounds like to me you're looking for an heirloom - something of sentimental value that will not be worthless 5 years after you gift it and could maybe increase in value as it becomes more nostalgic and is passed through your family.

I would personally choose a Colt SAA in a classic caliber e.g. 45 colt. Either purchase a plain jane factory one and leave it plain jane...shoot it and let your descendents know you shot it and enjoyed it so they can shoot it sometime and then tell stories about how granpa shot coke cans at 100 yards or purchase one with some mild factory engraving and do the same.

Or....purchase one from nutmeg. I have one of their revolvers and it's a work of art and shoots well too. Some people may debate if nutmeg colts will hold their value as well as factory colts. I think they will.

For long guns...doug turnbull just did a run of 1886 winchesters for a little less than 2k - brand new with his awesome work refining them to original standards. They are chambered in 45-70 - I have one and everyone really enjoyd it.

None of these heirlooms will probably increase over time as much as real estate or precious metals or other traditional investments...but they will retain more tangible heirloom personality when passed from one generation to the next.

If you don't want to buy something new...then in reality, the gun and pocket knife and fishing pole that you use the most - regardless of how beat up it is, will probably be one of the most cherished items that you leave behind. It's not the item itself that makes it valuable to your family...it's you and their memories of you associated with those items.

L.W.

GlockFan
October 29, 2010, 06:54 PM
If a new currency was introduced today, what would its value be? Ask gold. How many of them do you need to buy an ounce of gold? That's how much something is worth.
I have introduced a new currency..it's called the crap. I asked gold how much crap it would take to buy an ounce of gold...gold said one crap. Would you like to trade me an ounce of gold for a crap?
Can someone please explain to me why "precious metals" and "precious stones" command the prices they do. Why are they so valuable or precious? Tell me what these items produce or do. I have no need for any of these items. I believe people are brainwashed to think it is really worth $1300 and ounce. Sorry for the rant.

BlkHawk73
October 29, 2010, 07:00 PM
I am now 70 years years young and wish to leave something behind for my grandchildren that will only increase in value as time goes on.


Buying for an investment is different than buying as something to pass down. As an investment it's purpose is to be sold later on strictly as a means to make a profit. I gotta think that buying a gun to pass on to your grandchildren would be more for sentimental purposes rather than, "here, sell this in a few years and make some money".
As a sentimental or heirloom piece, I'd choose something that would be of interest to YOU so that regardless of their later interests, it would be the connection to YOU that mattered to them. Could be a inexpensive model or it could be a $100,000 double. Make it what YOU like.

Tim the student
October 29, 2010, 07:04 PM
Can someone please explain to me why "precious metals" and "precious stones" command the prices they do.

Because people pay those prices.

leadcounsel
October 29, 2010, 07:12 PM
The ONLY value of a mutual fund or a gold coin is "how much can I get for this."

The value of a quality or historic firearm is SO much more. Where has this been. Ohhh look at the care and craftsmanship. Cool, it's so accurate and fun to shoot. Wow, it's so handy to have for hunting/self defense/home defense...

Gold is oh so boring. Sure, it has gone up. A lot. But what goes up must come down...

If you're going to get into something with no intrinsic value, you gotta strike fast. In and out. Gold is not a long term hold. It's a quick buy. Hence why it's gone up so much.

As I said before, we only need to look at the housing, internet, and other sham bubbles that raced to their peaks and crashed. When folks start selling gold it's gonna come crashing down.

eddism
October 29, 2010, 07:15 PM
I invested into a few guns a couple years ago. They still are worth what I paid. But, in hinde sight. I should have invested into ammo. It has quadrupled in the last year.

Here's one that will never go down in value:
http://eddro.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/232323232fp53374_nu34_6_49_74_2574983_238ot1lsi1.jpg

USMC M40A1 w/Leupold Mark4 built by Tactical Rifles

CZguy
October 29, 2010, 11:10 PM
If you don't want to buy something new...then in reality, the gun and pocket knife and fishing pole that you use the most - regardless of how beat up it is, will probably be one of the most cherished items that you leave behind. It's not the item itself that makes it valuable to your family...it's you and their memories of you associated with those items.


Well said, you cut right to the heart of the matter.

Material possessions are just things that have no real value. Think I'm wrong? Just wait until you come face to face with death. Suddenly the only thing of real value is other people, and the memory of ones who were important to you.

PH/CIB
October 30, 2010, 11:43 PM
Guns and ammo are a good investment. Paper fiat money not backed by gold or anything else and printed by the banks of the Federal Reserve not the US Government is only good as long as EVERYONE thinks it is good. I was a Paratrooper Grunt out in the jungle of Viet Nam in 68/69 and if I remember right they changed the MPC, Military Payment Currency during that time, which if I remember correctly left the Vietnamese with a lot of old worthless MPC that they could not trade in.

If things get real bad, and they hopefully will not, the money, the stocks and bonds, all intangible investments will be worthless, and as far as gold at $1300 an ounce, I would rather have pounds of non hybrid seeds, a defendable perimeter, and a good water source.

WardenWolf
October 30, 2010, 11:51 PM
Keep in mind that using guns for "investment" is technically illegal, as you're not supposed to buy with intent to profit, even at a much later date. If you're going to do this, it needs to be low-key and justifiable; you can't just have a ton of valuable safe queens that are kept mint just for this purpose.

smallbore
October 31, 2010, 08:53 AM
I don't own 'investment' guns. I do however own a 'working battery'.

22-rimfire
October 31, 2010, 09:08 AM
....you can't just have a ton of valuable safe queens that are kept mint just for this purpose.

That is debatable. I believe you are technically correct in terms of resale if done as a business. In which case, you would probably need a business license and be subject to zoning restrictions in an urban area. It would be a matter of sales volume and probably over a period of time. There is nothing wrong currently with owning say 100 or a 1000 safe queens and then to sell all of them off. The BATFE has better things to do than bother a collector who happens to want to sell off his collection. He clearly is not in the "gun business". The BATFE has defined this pretty carefully in their requirements which can be found online at their web site in the FAQ's.

Sales tax is another issue and that may eventually somehow get enforced. I read that FFL dealers in Washington are being required to charge sales tax on the value of a gun (like you would a car if you bought it used from an individual when transfering the title) on transfers. I suspect it is being done because "they can" and using a FFL dealer is required for out of state purchases. If the law is changed in most states where a FFL dealer is required for private transfers of guns, then the sales tax collection may happen if required.

daorhgih
October 31, 2010, 11:06 AM
... you REALLY do need to get out of the house more often. This world is crammed full of money. But you'll never see it!

daorhgih
October 31, 2010, 11:15 AM
You should have been around the place about 2,000 years ago. You could really be rich now, following your spout-off of Au-trends! All the known Au in the world now is equal to about 4-dozen semis, fully loaded. How's that for a guaranteed scarcity! Better than Mutual Fool Funds.

Tom609
October 31, 2010, 05:16 PM
I don't know about that trailer load stuff, but I'll bet our wives have way more than that stored in their jewelry boxes.

leadcounsel
October 31, 2010, 05:34 PM
You should have been around the place about 2,000 years ago

If I had been armed with guns around 2000 years ago, a GUN and AMMO would have conquered the world! I would have been the most powerful man in the world and had all the gold, silver, jewels, women and luxuries a person could ask for (if I were so inclined)... :)

Justin
October 31, 2010, 10:49 PM
Yeah, but good luck curing a Staph infection.

CZguy
October 31, 2010, 11:48 PM
True enough, but you can't have everything.

bushmaster1313
November 1, 2010, 12:51 AM
There were only 5740 Ithaca knick trap guns made and no more will ever come out of Ithaca New York.

That is scarcity!

GunsAmerica Fan
November 8, 2010, 12:12 PM
If I had been armed with guns around 2000 years ago, a GUN and AMMO would have conquered the world! I would have been the most powerful man in the world and had all the gold, silver, jewels, women and luxuries a person could ask for (if I were so inclined)...

I got busy and lost track of this thread but this is a point I hadn't realized that I think requires elaboration for the naysayers here.

Did you see the most recent Robin Hood movie with Russell Crowe? It very much stressed that the taxes and wealth that the king got from his conquests were used to fight wars, which means to buy or make arms, and to pay soldiers.

When I saw this post (and leadcounsel was a naysayer), I realized that historically that is what wealth, in gold, has been valued for, the ability to protect what you have.

This is an oversimplification of course, especially with all the real market forces we have been speaking about it doesn't really matter in todays terms. But it is interesting to think about what a bankroll of gold has historically represented. I would argue that it is still in play today, that China is buying up gold because they want a fallback on the dollar should the world heat up.

Jorg Nysgerrig
November 8, 2010, 12:18 PM
I would argue that it is still in play today, that China is buying up gold because they want a fallback on the dollar should the world heat up.


Funny, you'd think that if China was so smart they'd buy guns from GunsAmerica.com instead of gold. Perhaps you should email them a copy of your article and we'll see if they change their investment strategy to fine shotguns. :rolleyes:

GunsAmerica Fan
November 8, 2010, 08:00 PM
Oh I'm sure their leadership has homes full of high grade shotguns. That ship sailed a long time ago back with Japan in the 80s. They don't have to buy them on GA and I'm sure we are firewalled anyway at the great wall.

There was an article on drudge this week about chinese demand and all of the protests that are starting to light up there to get higher wages to buy all of the crap we make. You watch in two months the gold bubble will burst just like condos on south beach.

Rembrandt
November 8, 2010, 10:25 PM
....You watch in two months the gold bubble will burst just like condos on south beach.

The point people miss about precious metals is that no matter what shape or form, it retains a value.....guns and condos can be melted down, but not much value left. Gold has been in demand since before the Pharoahs.....and will no doubt continue to be in demand for the future. Unlike condos, it's transportable and can be reshaped...even into bullets if need be.

CZguy
November 8, 2010, 10:34 PM
The point people miss about precious metals is that no matter what shape or form, it retains a value.....guns and condos can be melted down, but not much value left. Gold has been in demand since before the Pharoahs.....and will no doubt continue to be in demand for the future. Unlike condos, it's transportable and can be reshaped...even into bullets if need be.

Couldn't you make the same case for lead. :D

mdug59
November 8, 2010, 11:06 PM
Buy all the 50 cal.,AR,AK rifles you can afford.....keep it quiet and hidden from your family. Too bad you wont be around to see the expression on their faces when they find out about Grandpas dark side.

PzGren
November 9, 2010, 01:37 AM
Any good investment portfolio is diversified. There are some that, while not the very most profitable, also give joy of ownership.

GunsAmerica Fan
November 9, 2010, 10:15 AM
If you look at OP this was about small money safe storage. Is it smarter to buy gold today at $1400 an once or guns, that are at the bottom of their value right now. I just got my flier from Arizona Shooting Range in lauderdale Pz and all the black pistols are $80-$200 off. You can even buy higher demand black guns at the bottom of their market value today. Even if gold peaks over 2k, how do you know when to sell? And you'll be selling it for dollars presumably, which may be subject to heavy inflation once all of this funny money the govt is printing makes it into the system. If you buy a Px4 or a Sig 250 or even an SW Sigma it is going to worth more or at least the same as you paid for it in ten years.

Rembrant, if we get to the point where people are collecting and melting down guns, everyone on this forum will already be dead.

PzGren
November 9, 2010, 11:48 AM
GunsAmericaFan,

modern guns that are mass produced and not labour but profit intensive, like the Glocks, have not appreciated in the last years.

My Korth did, my Pyhon did a little since I shelled out big bucks in 1985, and my Anschütz rifles, the Hämmerli, and the 1911s did.

I had expected the Glocks to go up more than some others. Talking about utility value.

daorhgih
November 9, 2010, 12:38 PM
Then by all means, buy as many as you can, IF you are set up to defend them and peddle them for sale. Today's not a day to buy bushels of Au or Ag. Groceries may also be on the sliding scale; the utility of a gun is decreased if you are starving and don't like the taste of Pb. Find your own comfortable balance-point. Times are definitely changing. Make two piles of your guns: (1) pile of guns you won't leave home without their accompaniment, and (2) the other pile of all of the rest. "All of the rest" should be ready for sale; you won't need them. Then do push-ups while in full BOB dress until you can run around the block twice, with all the guns in (1) above. You may need to further explore, with a 70-lb pack. And the point of this all is, "Your Gun Is Your Life." Lots of questions.

MrOldLude
November 9, 2010, 12:57 PM
A gun will help me hunt food, protect myself people who wish to take my gun, and steal other people's gold. (assuming they themselves don't have gold)

So despite what Glenn Beck is being paid to tell me, no thanks. Moreover, I've learned that when people start suspecting a commodity might be a bubble, run.

But no, I don't view my firearms as collectors pieces. They are tools of enjoyment. If they gain value in the future, great. But I view them as costs as sunk.

daorhgih
November 9, 2010, 01:32 PM
ANYTHING. He has advertisers (it's called "capitalism") and they tell you to buy all sort of stuff. You say, "Moreover, I've learned.." I've been buying and selling Au, Ag, and guns since probably before you were born (1960?). I have never lost a cent on precious metals, and am still way above water on the guns I bought. My opinion is mine, and is succeeding, and YMMV. Experience is a good teacher. Hang around a while longer -- like for the next ninety days and you'll see the wisdom of "buy lower, sell higher." A year ago I made the "two pile decision" , sold pile #2 and bought Au at 790/oz. It's way above that now, but still not a time NOT to buy, wisely. Discretion is the greater part of valor.

HGUNHNTR
November 9, 2010, 01:39 PM
Can someone please explain to me why "precious metals" and "precious stones" command the prices they do.

Because they fill very specialized requirements in various fields including but not limited to creating electronic gadgets, automotive parts, etc. Firearms will never be used to create an essential part of a catalytic converter, or create pathways for a semiconductor.

Precious metals and gems are not just pretty things at which to gaze, they have many practical applications that are in high demand, and because of their relative scarcity, or the complexity and cost of obtaining them, they command the prices dictated by the market.

I hope this helps to answer your question.

GunsAmerica Fan
November 9, 2010, 03:56 PM
Well you didn't really answer his question. The demand from electronics and semiconductors are not driving the demand for gold, not even 1%.

The real reason is that there are not alot of vehicles to store "wealth." And as many posters here have noted, gold has historically been one of the few that is unimpeachable for trade purposes. It is considered extremely liquid, meaning you can trade it off when you need your wealth for real needs of life.

It also has a perceived scarcity, so the price can fluctuate with demand very freely (this was not so prior to the depression). Perceived scarcity is also a huge factor with stones. If you want to see a good movie on this subject check out Blood Diamond. It'll really open your eyes to the scam we fall into buying our girls the best diamonds we can afford.

I would separate stones out completely for that reason in fact. You don't pay 10k for a 1 carat Hearts on Fire diamond because it could technically be used in cutting and laser technology. You pay because it looks pretty and all the facets are hearts lol.

Gold right now is all about fear. People have wealth that they want to be worth something in the future. Do you keep it in dollars? No, everyone is worried that the dollar will collapse. Euros? No, Greece already almost dissolved the whole thing. There are very few countries on good financial footing right now. That fear of losing what they have is driving people to seek the old safe standard, gold.

So I ask all the people who bought gold at 700, looks like you are doing great with your investment. Are you going to sell now? Are you now going to keep that money in American greenbacks? Are you going to hold and see if you can get 2k for it? Well then you are back to getting paid in dollars.

Whereas if I buy a used AK today for $300, no matter what the country does and which way the economy goes, you can pretty much be assured it will never be worth less than that in actual barter value (which is the thinking with buying gold). The mods think my suggestion of high grade shotguns is a joke, but I can also assure you that if you buy a $50,000 Beretta today, you can keep it in your safe as long or short as you want, no matter which way the economy goes, and it'll be worth 50k in actual value.

Nobody can argue that there is money to be made playing the precious metal market, or the stock market, or the currency market, whatever. But if you want to store wealth in a safe vehicle at the value you purchase it today, there is no comparison to guns.
They are the best investment today.

SuperNaut
November 9, 2010, 05:29 PM
Unless you bought at peak, then you are screwed. But that doesn't count for some reason; we just pretend that those guns and those buyers don't exist and all those EBR's flooding the market are figments of your imagination.

reloader-1
November 9, 2010, 05:32 PM
I actually agree with GA here - but only to a point.

He raises the interestesting point that IF gold is still barter material in a SHTF scenario, it would only be tradable for a like value that was originally paid for it. In other words, if I paid $1000 for an ounce of gold, giving up the opportunity to buy 10 pairs of jeans, that ounce should buy me 10 pairs of jeans in a semi-SHTF scenario.

However, I disagree with his $50,000 shotgun comment. A collectible item (apartements, dolls, guns, etc) is only worth as much as people are willing to pay for it. Otherwise, it sells for it's actual utility value (look at Beanie Babies a while back, now they fetch the $4 that they should be worth).

Basically, in a true SHTF scenario, your $50,000 shotgun would be worth (in barter) about the same as a Mossberg 500 pump. (or maybe even less!) It would revert to intrinsic value, which is a shotgun.

theotherwaldo
November 9, 2010, 05:55 PM
This isn't the time to buy gold - this is the time to buy a gold pan!

-And you guys that are arguing about buying guns. It sounds like you buy retail! :barf:

You'll never add much value by paying retail prices on something that is already a hot commodity. Value is added when you find something that's under-appreciated, pay a minimal price, and then hold your purchase until it becomes appreciated.

Admittedly, there is an element of chance and a lot of judgment and research involved in this approach, but, hey, nothing's perfect.

And at least you get to shoot some very different guns with your children and grandchildren - and then leave them something solid along with the memories.;)

GunsAmerica Fan
November 9, 2010, 06:09 PM
In a worldwide collapse there would be no wealth retention by anyone with anything. If we are on the brink of something unprecedented in the modern world, I'd rather have a pile of guns than a pile of gold (provided there is ammo with them as I explained in my article).

And as for the high grade guns, you are mostly speaking from inexperience with high grade guns. As I have explained previously in this thread, the high grade market is worldwide, not just the US like beanie babies and Chamilia bracelets. If the US severely depresses most likely most of europe will too, but there will still be plenty of old money who will be unaffected. With gold you pay a broker fee coming and going when you are talking real numbers. With a 50k shotgun you just buy it, then sell it. Generally high grade guns, like high grade jewelry, are unaffected by serious downturns. Certain engravers and manufacturers and grades of walnut even just never are devalued. We don't generally talk about end of the world stuff on this board and I think it devalues the OP and this continuing discussion about safe and profitable investing. My position on that was very clear in the article.

daorhgih
November 9, 2010, 07:58 PM
Is now worth $1428/oz, IF & when I sell. I can go to 250 places within an hour of here and sell it. No broker-fee, no questions. Walk in, get cash, walk out. Where could I sell a $50000 shotty, and how would I get there? Ship the gun?! Insure it? How? What if USPS is down for "reorganization"?? If I wanted to shift 100 oz. of my Au, I still would not incur any fees: I would laterally shift the Au into Ag, which is not such a bad idea. Au seems at a top, and Ag is still gathering up steam. My latest "investment" is 20000 rds 5.56 NATO 65gr @ $0.315 per rd. Thank you, Guns America !!

leadcounsel
November 9, 2010, 08:27 PM
Is now worth $1428/oz, IF & when I sell. I can go to 250 places within an hour of here and sell it. No broker-fee, no questions. Walk in, get cash, walk out.

Good for you. The $120 SKSs I bought a few years ago are now worth twice that. We both doubled our money. However, mine have the utility of self defense and putting food on the table if ever needed. And they are worth twice as much. What has gold done other than increase invalue?

And your point is...?

My point is that gold is suckers bet right now. If I were you I'd sell it at a high. It's being driven up by the commondities markets for suckers to continue to buy at historic heights and then the bubble will burst after those 'in the know' get out at the top. HHmmmm... where have we seen this before... internet bubble... housing bubble... stock market bubble... when gold falls it'll fall fast...

HGUNHNTR
November 9, 2010, 08:41 PM
But if you want to store wealth in a safe vehicle at the value you purchase it today, there is no comparison to guns.
They are the best investment today.

That is the most hilariously bad investment advice I have ever heard.
Yeah, thats why my financial advisor has a portfolio littered with guns.

Diversify he says, 10% English Doubles, 30% EBR's, 10% Milsurps, 40% Colt DA Revolvers, and 10% BB guns.
Well you didn't really answer his question. The demand from electronics and semiconductors are not driving the demand for gold, not even 1%.

You didn't understand what I was saying. Simply put, precious metals and gems have a value determined in a number of different ways, whether as a vehicle for stabilizing a financial portfolio, or value garnered from real world demand driven by industry. The guns YOU believe have value hold very little interest for a large prtion of the population, thus making them difficult to liquidate at a profit when compared to other investments. Also factor in the fact that "collectible" guns fall in and out of fashion very quickly. I know of a couple gentlemen sitting on Winchester commemoratives that they just knew were going to fund their retirement....bad idea.

In a worldwide collapse there would be no wealth retention by anyone with anything.
If the US severely depresses most likely most of europe will too, but there will still be plenty of old money who will be unaffected. uhh.....so which is it? How do you plan on selling your high grade double to some chap in Great Britain, if by a very small chance you actually are able to even find a buyer for your VERY niche market firearm??

Another important point is actual physical security of your investments. My stocks, and etf's don't need to be kept in a safe and are not exposed to possible fire, theft, flooding, etc.

where have we seen this before... internet bubble... housing bubble... stock market bubble... when gold falls it'll fall fast...
There are multitudes of other investments if you are scared of gold, inverse etf's, stocks, and many more. It doesn't have to be a choice between gold and a plywood box of SKS's.

GunsAmerica Fan
November 9, 2010, 09:51 PM
Which is why I referred to a 6,000 word article on the subject at the beginning of this thread...

There is no "so which is it." I don't consider an end of the world scenario to be realistic and if it is, it really doesn't matter what you are invested in. Nothing is portable and can be eaten. Guns could be easily bartered for what can be eaten in that situation, and like another said, a mossberg 500 is equally as valueable as a high grade shotgun.

But if hard times are coming for the US and other western countries, most likely it will not be entirely worldwide, and old money in the US and Europe, etc. will endure.

If you read the article you will see my explanation that high grade guns are in a different class than whimsical collectibles, including the "franklin mint" type of collectibles like the winchester collectibles. I bet that guy's name with them wasn't Jim Supica lol. Ignorant people do ignorant things, bless their hearts lol. This isn't what we are talking about here.

Good luck with the stocks though. ;) The believers are reaching for a reason to believe and the election may just have been it. But eventually the world is going to realize that we don't make anything here anymore and grow little more than corn. Our credit is going to run out. Trump was on Fox this afternoon (I have it on XM in the car) and said what I have said for a decade. We all love the cheap chinese crap, but the imbalance in trade is going to destroy our country if we don't start taxing chinese imports.

SuperNaut
November 9, 2010, 11:31 PM
End of the world, again...

daorhgih
November 10, 2010, 01:40 AM
If you want to leave your grandkids something of value for them, that will never decrease, just grab a pen and a notebook and begin like this: "The minute I saw your grandmother for the first time, I just knew in my heart that...." You take it from there. I'm 73.

HGUNHNTR
November 10, 2010, 09:20 AM
^+1

daorhgih
November 10, 2010, 11:45 AM
The SKS has been a wonderful investment opportunity for me, also. Don't think that because I like Au, that I don't own weapons. I've traded in SKS almost exclusively since before the Clinton ban, when they were selling for $99, all you could carry. I got very lucky and found four Tula Zavod guns, made in 1945. The rollmark and other provenance sold those guns for $600 apiece, in a cardboard box. That will never happen again! But with other "commodities" (your definition, which is 1/2-right) AU is facing very similar circumstances to those in the late 1970s: there is tension between the United States and Islamofascits, there is concern about inflation at home at every supermarket and gas-station, and confidence in the US $$$ is failing, world wide. And the Fed just keeps on cranking out $1000-dollar bill debts, at a billion-per-week!! During 1979 and 1980 the Au price spiked far in excess of its theoretical value, and the same could happen at any time now. If we would experience the same magnitude of RISE in the Au price as we saw then, Au could easily trade for $1,500 or more. Oh, gee, guess what?? That's where it is!! (Down $@0 today). Au may trade "sideways" for years, until the theoretical price finally catches up with the market price. Assuming the theoretical price is in the ballpark, we should not discount the possibility that the Au price could fall, or trade sideways, until the theoretical price has caught up again. But one neither gains nor loses until the Au -- or the gun -- is sold, or bought. Whether one should bet the gold price will spike as it did in 1980, or be more cautious, is entirely a personal and subjective matter. The theoretical price-model tells us only what Au is worth RELATIVE to dollars, and not what the Au price is going to be next week. Try to avoid taking payments in inflated dollars.

Nomad, 2nd
November 10, 2010, 09:36 PM
I got into:
Gold at $330 Per Oz,
Silver at $6 per,
SKS's at $69,
AK parts kits at $99,
FAL kits at $140,
AK mags at $2.22
FAL mags at $2.50
Hk mags at $1
AR mags (New) at $5
9mm at $3.83 per 50
.308 at UNDER $21 per battlepack.

Etc.
(Did I mention I'm under 30? So it's not like it was 1970's prices)

Now, Buying at the peak (Or even NEAR it) in ANYTHING is illogical IMHO.

As to $50K shotguns.... Moronic. Yes, there will ALWAYS be some 'old money'
but you haveto count on them not having ALREADY bought that COLLECTION of $50K shotguns (IF they even want that!) that the former internet billionare had to sell off.

too small a market.

But if for instance you had $5K in $10 Glock mags...

As to what to put our money into now... I don't know.
That's why I ended up reading this whole thing.

As to the OP:

Consider several things (Which most have already mentioned)

Things which are likely to be banned (Para FAL, AK, AR etc)
Things which are useful (Pistols)
Classics (Walther PP etc)

Combinations (Hi Powers are useful, classical, High cap etc)

As well as 'nice guns' like the CZ 452

And hunting guns like one of my WInchester Model 12's which fits many rolls.


Hope that helps.

If you find a steal on a Colt SAA or something... sure, but why not several less collectable (But more useful, and not having appriciated so much) S&W revolvers insted?


Hope this helps.

daorhgih
November 10, 2010, 10:14 PM
I hope that you are still holding the metals, except for a few incursions. I'm holding now, investing in nowhere -- but a couple of gold mines in the Yukon look promising. They're at a low, with some Chinese exploration. The weapons I bought are all reinvested in metals now, except for a few dozen Glock-21 hi-cap magazines. Bought at $10, sold most at $25, just holding on to a few. You sure have good taste and timing. Good luck. (I'm book-marking your page)

GunsAmerica Fan
November 11, 2010, 12:09 AM
This issue is storage Nomad. And again, your opinion is based on inexperience with high grade guns. All of the things you list would require a large temperature controlled storage space to vest hundreds of thousands in personal wealth in.

And btw, I bought all of the things on your list at those prices as well. If you bought your mother a gold necklace in the late 90s you bought gold at $300 an ounce. If you bought your daughter earings you got silver at six bucks. And all the gun stuff everyone bought back then who was an avid shooter and gun nut. I'm waiting for my 30 (yes countem 30) M44 nagants to spike lol.

Erik M
November 11, 2010, 12:51 AM
I bought my Smiths and Rugers to become hierloom weapons either for my child or my brothers children. I don't see them losing value any time soon. More of a hedge for me, I see them as easy money if I get into a tight squeeze. I would invest in commodities instead of buying a heap load of guns.

Nomad, 2nd
November 11, 2010, 01:09 AM
This issue is storage Nomad. And again, your opinion is based on inexperience with high grade guns. All of the things you list would require a large temperature controlled storage space to vest hundreds of thousands in personal wealth in.

And btw, I bought all of the things on your list at those prices as well. If you bought your mother a gold necklace in the late 90s you bought gold at $300 an ounce. If you bought your daughter earings you got silver at six bucks. And all the gun stuff everyone bought back then who was an avid shooter and gun nut. I'm waiting for my 30 (yes countem 30) M44 nagants to spike lol.


Oh, I understand the Storage issue. My Lazyboy is sitting next to a Couch made out of 20,000 rounds of South African .308, with AK ammo armrests.

I bought a pallet of 5.45x39 when it was cheap.

900 AK 47 mags, 700 HK91 mags etc.

As to my 'inexperence with high grade guns'.... If we're talking (As you were) 5 figures, I admit it.

High 4 figures however... I have. (Personally) And I've observed the 5's.

You see, in between being Medically retired from the Corps, and going back to school, I worked in a class 3/7 shop. (Red Jacket Firearms)

SO I DO have some knowledge about 'small markets' as I speculate, Class 3 items (SBR, SBS, Suppressors, FA etc) have atleast SOME relation.

(IF you would care to look down off of your high horse and not speculate on what YOU do not know.)

For instance, I have a Red Jacket, Yugo Krink, MINT, Matching, WITH a matching serial numbered NDS reciever....

Been half assed trying to sell it for months.

It hasn't moved. (I'm in no rush)

while $400 AK's... Those move easy.

And no, I bought a couple maple leaves in 2004 at $330 an oz, not overpriced baubles. (Bought up to $510 after that, just like I bought silver up to $12.88)

(My M44's HAVE spiked. I bought $37.50 (After shipping) "Cracked stock specials" from Century, they were arsonal repaired, not cracked.) :neener:

daorhgih
November 11, 2010, 01:19 AM
You shop well. Small, exclusive club, y'kno??

Nomad, 2nd
November 11, 2010, 01:26 AM
daorhgih:

I don't follow you with what your trying to say, I'm just a dumb Marine who just got back from the VFW 'hoisting' a few to our 235 Birthday.:D

Whatcha mean?

HGUNHNTR
November 11, 2010, 09:26 AM
I think the best translation is "Nice shopping, not many folks know how to identify bargains"

daorhgih
November 11, 2010, 09:45 AM
From the long-retired Airman to another man who knows what it means: "Semper Fi" on this special day. THANK YOU for your service. dao

GunsAmerica Fan
November 11, 2010, 10:03 AM
Yea, it's safe to say that everyone here is grateful to the US Marines and everyone who has protected this fat lavish American lifestyle that the majority of people not on this board take for granted. Here we take nothing for granted and we know that our men and women in uniform are the only thing between us with our supermarkets full of food and Mogadishu. So indeed happy bday.

I don't know why you would think I'm on a high horse. Because I have some experience with high grade guns? I started GunsAmerica in 1997 by flying out to the Wannemacher gun show (that is this week and yes we have a booth there) and handing out fliers to the sellers, then taking whatever hand printed list they would give me and took them home and entered them on GA on pure faith that the internet would sell them faster than the Gun List. I learned about high grade guns not from owning them (my dad does have a Bertuzzi though but it is a lifetime dream purchase), it is from watching them come and go over the years. You can always sell a high grade gun on GA in a day, and the appreciation in them has been fairly consistent, so that even if you firesale a gun you will be getting your money back out, with a return even sometimes. I've seen guns sell in ten minutes on GA that were underpriced all of 10% or so.

The same pretty much goes for machineguns as you noted, but the chance of having them legislated out is substantially more than any other gun in the US. I think they are a risky long term investment.

I didn't buy my M44s as investments and they have gone up some. I paid I think $79 for mine, from Century as well lol. I bought them as "come the day" guns after 911 to arm my neighbors in the case of civil unrest. It is time for them to go though lol. I let go of the chem suits and gas masks and radiation meters long ago. ;)

Nomad, 2nd
November 11, 2010, 11:18 PM
Thanks guys, it's not been all at once.

I bought some stuff... thought it was alot.

Realised it wasn't/wish I had bought more a few times....

Kept it up, made it a practice of buying MORE than I could afford.

Helps that I'm single and have never done debt.


Yea, it's safe to say that everyone here is grateful to the US Marines and everyone who has protected this fat lavish American lifestyle that the majority of people not on this board take for granted. Here we take nothing for granted and we know that our men and women in uniform are the only thing between us with our supermarkets full of food and Mogadishu. So indeed happy bday.

I don't know why you would think I'm on a high horse.Your additude when anyone has a differing opinion. And, as I pointed out, You do not know OUR background/experences. Because I have some experience with high grade guns? I started GunsAmerica in 1997 by flying out to the Wannemacher gun show (that is this week and yes we have a booth there) and handing out fliers to the sellers, then taking whatever hand printed list they would give me and took them home and entered them on GA on pure faith that the internet would sell them faster than the Gun List. And I've watched guns sit (And had them sit) on the net for some time... I learned about high grade guns not from owning them (my dad does have a Bertuzzi though but it is a lifetime dream purchase), it is from watching them come and go over the years. As I said, your not the only one who has been around guns for a day or 2....You can always sell a high grade gun on GA in a day, Yea, if you want to LOOSE money!and the appreciation in them has been fairly consistent, so that even if you firesale a gun you will be getting your money back out, with a return even sometimes. Sometimes, Fairly, etc... and the last few years have bene when people HAD money to spend.I've seen guns sell in ten minutes on GA that were underpriced all of 10% or so.Again, why would I want to LOOSE $5,000?

The same pretty much goes for machineguns as you noted,Yea, no. Reciently on Machinegun prices we's steped into the WAAAAYBACK machine about 12 years... I about kicked a buddy of mine for passing on an M16 for $7,500.... but the chance of having them legislated out is substantially more than any other gun in the US. I think they are a risky long term investment.Doubt it. Too well regulated.

I didn't buy my M44s as investments and they have gone up some. I paid I think $79 for mine, from Century as well lol. I bought them as "come the day" guns after 911 to arm my neighbors in the case of civil unrest. It is time for them to go though lol. I let go of the chem suits and gas masks and radiation meters long ago.
I picked up SKS's insted... Not sure how many, lost count after 14:p

MUCH better weapon, and if someone's watching my @$$....

Rayford
December 1, 2010, 07:24 PM
Thanks everyone.

You have been enormously helpful. You all have given me a lot of sound advice here which I will carefully consider as I under take the quest of finding a good fire arm for each of them that will hopefully increase in value long after I am gone and will be a treasure both of some value to them in their latter years and even greater value in treasured memories when their affectionate grandfather taught them to shoot as well as disassemble, clean and reassemble their gun...a loving gift from me.

Much appreciated...

Rayford

22-rimfire
December 1, 2010, 10:01 PM
There is some money to be made in firearms and firearm accessories. No question as far as I'm concerned. There are three basic approaches...

(1) You buy the firearms you like and hope they eventually appreciate in value for later sale. The key here is you like the firearms for themselves and don't view them stictly as an investment. I do this. If they increase significantly in value, I feel good and if they just move with inflation or a bit less, at least I did not loose any money and I may well have spent the money on something that looses value like most cars.

(2) You buy the less expensive guns based on the reasoning that more people can afford a less expensive gun versus a higher end collectable. Your gambling on essentially volume sales to make you money. For me, I don't want to be in the ebay or gun business, so this is not a great choice plus you need to store all this stuff for years potentially in the mean time.

(3) You buy the most expensive guns you can afford under the assumption (like real estate) that it will go up in value at least at some predictable common percentage basis. So the higher the price, the more money the investment acures over time. This was a common approach when buying a house where you buy as much house as you can afford as the price just kept going up and the increase generally outpaced inflation. This assumes there is always a buyer. We know what has happened to real estate in the last couple of years. Many of these houses were repo'd by the banks because the buyer could just barely afford the purchase in the first place and a bump in the road happened. But guns have not followed in kind (yet).

I think it is good to have a diversified group of investments and assets which include stocks, bonds, precious metals, firearms and other collectables. Collectables are always high risk investments.

It is very easy to look back if you are old enough to $300 or $500 gold or $5 silver and look at the current market and see the current selling price in US dollars. By the same token, you can do the same thing with firearms. So, if you are interested in collecting firearms for profit, I would buy smart and wade into the foray.

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