40S&W / 10mm sabot rounds using 9mm/30 cal bullets?


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bds
October 10, 2010, 03:57 PM
I recall reading an article on 308/30-06 sabot rounds using .223 projectiles that produced insane terminal ballistics.

Anyone hear or do any testing on 40S&W/10mm sabot rounds using 9mm/30 caliber bullets?

I know that .357 Sig and 9x25 Dillon rounds exist.

The use of sabots would make use of more readily available 40S&W/10mm brass without a barrel change.

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cougar1717
October 11, 2010, 02:24 PM
I believe you are thinking about the Remington Accelerator rifle ammo, which I'm pretty sure has been discontinued. I have seen setups for using .224 bullets in a 7.62x25, but finding sabots in the correct size may be difficult. At least .224 to .308 was available and .44 to .500 is readily available due to muzzleloading, but .355 to .400 is an oddball size. Either way, the biggest problems you will encounter will be 1) getting a semi-auto to feed correctly and 2) accuracy. Those issues are averted by using bullets of the correct diameter for the cartridge.

bds
June 20, 2015, 01:53 PM
With 3D printers, couldn't I make some 40-9mm sabots?

I know I could push 124/125 gr bullets to 1450+fps with 9 Major loads but would feel uncomfortable reusing those brass.

With 40S&W/9mm sabots, brass is more plentiful and readily reusable. I am thinking at least 357Sig level velocities with 124/125 gr bullets.

Any thoughts?

ReloaderFred
June 20, 2015, 02:09 PM
I experimented with the sabot loads in rifles back in the late 1980's, but never found them viable in the accuracy department. That was using .308 to .224 sabots. I've still got some of the sabots from that venture around here someplace.

I don't believe I've ever seen a .38/9mm to .400/10mm sabot, but I suppose you could make them on a 3D printer. My concern would be the material they were made from. If it's too soft, it will strip through the rifling and any chance at accuracy would be lost.

I've got both 357 Sig and 9x25 Dillon handguns, and that's a whole lot easier to do than sabots. Of course, that's just my opinion, and it didn't cost anything, so it's worth what you paid......

Hope this helps.

Fred

rsrocket1
June 21, 2015, 12:26 AM
The accelerator lives on! (http://www.eabco.com/remington-accelerator-sabots.html)

3500 fps in 30-30 or 4200 fps in 30-06

I've been toying with the idea of trying these out for a while, but have run into too many other projects in the mean time (muzzle loading with sabots, shotgun slug loading, powder coating).

You can buy .45 cal sabots for 40 cal bullets (https://www.harvestermuzzleloading.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=7&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=3&vmcchk=1&Itemid=3) but I don't know how they would behave in an autoloader.

tightgroup tiger
June 22, 2015, 06:13 AM
I had the same experience Reloader Fred had. They were pretty lacking in the accuracy dept.

I had 30-30 accelerators, they had reduced recoil and about a 5" group at 100 yds from a 1 MOA rifle. After I saw that I re-directed the money I was spending and moved on to a different project.

g.willikers
June 22, 2015, 03:00 PM
bds,
Why not give it a try.
The worst that can happen is that the experiment will keep you off the streets and out of the bars for awhile.

bds
June 22, 2015, 03:19 PM
g.willikers, I need to buy a 3D printer first or have someone make them for me.

Malamute
June 22, 2015, 03:30 PM
In the 80's there was somebody making sabots in 44/38 size. The local gun shop guy had some given to him to try by the manufacturers, he gave them to me. I followed the directions, including having the gun as clean as possible, and followed their load data. Accuracy was pretty poor, and left plastic crud in the bore of my Smith 29.

Good luck if you try it, so far nobody has gotten it right, or consistantly right and giving reliable results in a variety of guns, including Remington.

I imagine the type of plastic, or more likely teflon, would have to be just right.

rsrocket1
June 23, 2015, 09:56 AM
I imagine the type of plastic, or more likely teflon, would have to be just right.

Makes sense. I use sabots in my muzzleloader and they are the most accurate projectiles I've shot (so far). However, the sabots are already firmly engraved in the rifling as the bullet goes down into the muzzle and there is no transition from a cartridge into the barrel.

50 Shooter
June 23, 2015, 03:47 PM
The problem with accuracy is due to centering the bullet in the sabot and keeping it centered all the way out the barrel.

I have some military .50 BMG Sabot rounds, they're made to extremely tight tolerances. Not these after market ones that are loose and wobble in the sabot. If you can't get these types of tolerances then don't waste your time and money.

I have about a dozen (factory) .30-06 accelerators if anyone wants to buy them, PM me to keep it out of the thread.

TimSr
June 23, 2015, 03:54 PM
I still have a box of 30-30 accelerators. I also used the 30-06 ones. You get .223 velocities with 30 carbine accuracy which is why they were discontinued. The .308" 100gr Plinkers and Varminters, and 30 carbine bullets were more accurrate from my 30-30 and '06.

I don't see the point in using them for pistol rounds. If you want 9mm, get a 9mm and buy 9mm ammo at fraction of the cost of handloading sabots.

Elkins45
June 23, 2015, 05:55 PM
How about paper patching a .358 bullet up to .401? How thick is cardstock? A couple of wraps might do it.

I had an idea to make homemade sabots from paper mâché and glue, but like many of my ideas it remains just a thought experiment at this point.

bds
June 23, 2015, 08:05 PM
My goal was to duplicate 9 Major loads which push 124 gr bullet to 1450+ fps but without abusing brass that I feel uncomfortable reusing and instead use plentiful 40S&W brass which will be readily reloadable with cheaper 9mm bullets. I was thinking of using RMR HM bullets rated to 1500 fps.

I can work on alternate sabot ideas until 3D printing option is available.

And this would be for pistol loads to 15 yards for fun/plinking so MOA rifle accuracy won't be necessary. :D

moxie
June 24, 2015, 10:46 AM
While you might get that few extra hundred fps (external ballistics) with a sabot, the "terminal ballistics," or effect of the bullet on the target, might actually suffer if the bullet isn't designed to function at that impact velocity. Depending on design, it could over/under penetrate, fragment, or skew radically off to one side or the other. If all you are doing is plinking or punching holes in paper, terminal ballistics is irrelevant.

TimSr
June 24, 2015, 11:49 AM
My goal was to duplicate 9 Major loads which push 124 gr bullet to 1450+ fps but without abusing brass that I feel uncomfortable reusing and instead use plentiful 40S&W brass which will be readily reloadable with cheaper 9mm bullets. I was thinking of using RMR HM bullets rated to 1500 fps.

And this would be for pistol loads to 15 yards for fun/plinking so MOA rifle accuracy won't be necessary.

This explanation is even more perplexing to me.

I'm getting 1350fps with 124gr SWC out of my 9mm now. What is it you would like this saboted 9mm bullet do from a .40 at 15 yards at 1450fps that mine won't do at 1350? I sounds like you are going to a lot of trouble and expense to save buying 9mm brass, which ranges are giving away at scrap prices.


FYI, you are going to have a tough time trying to 3d print with the type plastic used for sabots.

blarby
June 24, 2015, 12:18 PM
I think drilling the sabots out of Delrin would be much faster and cheaper than a 3d printer.

I'd be worried about chamber pressure turning your printer sabots into dust.

They've already necked down a 40 to 35, BDS.... it's called the 357 sig :p

Elkins45
June 24, 2015, 12:32 PM
Sounds like you just need to buy an aftermarket 357 Sig barrel.

Trek
June 24, 2015, 12:34 PM
TimSr,
Did you actually chronograph the 30-06 accellerators and find that they only give about 3100 FPS velocity? The specifications I read say that they will deliver over 4000 FPS velocity, which is about 22 Swift velocities, not 223 velocities.

Trek
June 24, 2015, 12:48 PM
This explanation is even more perplexing to me.

I'm getting 1350fps with 124gr SWC out of my 9mm now. What is it you would like this saboted 9mm bullet do from a .40 at 15 yards at 1450fps that mine won't do at 1350? I sounds like you are going to a lot of trouble and expense to save buying 9mm brass, which ranges are giving away at scrap prices.


FYI, you are going to have a tough time trying to 3d print with the type plastic used for sabots.
TimSr,
Wow! How are you getting 1350 FPS for a 225 Gr SWC bullet out of a 9x19 (9mm Luger) Cartridge? What length barrel are you using? Are you going over published Maximum Loads? My reloading manuals show just over 1150 FPS max for any 124 or 125 grain bullet.

1350 FPS is close to 357 SIG velocities.

Mad Chemist
June 25, 2015, 06:24 PM
3N37 can get you over 1200fps with a 124gr jacketed bullet while staying within their published data.
http://www.vihtavuori.com/en/reloading-data/handgun-reloading/9-mm-luger.html

I have pushed it a bit higher. For me the brass began to guppy at about .7gr over max from a G19. You will definitely need to exceed max to get to 1350 in 9x19mm but it can be done. Of course the only "safe" way to do it is from and overbuilt "9mm Major" gun.

If i were planning on doing it again I would use VV3n37, VV3n38, HS-6, Power Pistol, or Autocomp.

Sorry, I won't publish any potentially dangerous data.:eek:

bds
June 26, 2015, 07:16 AM
Since I am planning to shoot USPSA matches again, I will be putting aside Glock 20SF purchase until after retirement (which got delayed by 2 years due to job change/promotion).

I am for 9mm Major and had plans to use AutoComp with Glock 22 and KKM/Lone Wolf 40-9 conversion barrels with thicker chamber/barrel so pressure was less of a concern. But since I probably won't reload 9mm Major brass, I am definitely leaning more towards 40S&W with 165/180 gr bullet for major PF loads.

If I end up doing any testing with 40S&W sabot rounds with 9mm bullets, I will post my range report here.

TimSr
June 26, 2015, 09:09 AM
TimSr,
Did you actually chronograph the 30-06 accellerators and find that they only give about 3100 FPS velocity? The specifications I read say that they will deliver over 4000 FPS velocity, which is about 22 Swift velocities, not 223 velocities.

Your numbers are more realistic. The point is they were trying to turn a .308 into a flat shooting varmint rifle, but couldn't achieve varmint rifle accurracy.

TimSr
June 26, 2015, 09:14 AM
TimSr,
Wow! How are you getting 1350 FPS for a 225 Gr SWC bullet out of a 9x19 (9mm Luger) Cartridge?


I'm not. Its a 125gr SWC over 8.0gr Blue Dot from a S&W 439. A cast bullet of same weight and similar contruction will usually achieve higher velocity over the same load as a jacketed bullet.

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