Walker with a different twist --- .45 BPM (.45 Black Powder Magnum)


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ClemBert
October 11, 2010, 09:12 PM
Okay cap-n-ballers….don’t hate me. I decided that I wanted the option of shooting cartridges in my Walker in addition to shooting cap-n-ball style. I purchased a Kirst Konverter and had a channel cut in the recoil shield to allow for breech loading of cartridges. There are a couple of things about converting a Walker to shoot .45 Colt that always bothered me. (1) The .45 Colt cartridge only allows for a maximum of 40 grains of BP whereas the Walker in cap-n-ball style can hold up to 60 grains. (2) The relatively short length of the .45 Colt cartridge means there is quite a bit of bullet jump before the projectile gets to the forcing cone. Seems that with the convenience of a cartridge conversion you can’t have your cake and eat it too. I thought I’d do something about it (because I like cake) to get a little bit more flexibility when it comes to cartridge shooting. Sheesh, do I have too much time on my hands or what? FWIW, you non-engineers should know that most of us engineers spend way to much time thinking about solving problems even if they don’t really exist and we have to create a theoretical problem out of thin air.

Enter the .45 BPM. This cartridge addresses the two issues I mentioned above. (1) The .45 BPM can hold 60 grains of BP. (2) The cartridge is longer and therefore the projectile can sit much closer to the forcing cone. There was a little work that had to be performed on the Kirst Konverter. The rim recess diameters had to be increased slightly and each chamber had to have the rebate depth increased. It will still hold .45 Colt cartridges.

This is not an idiot proof solution. Any self proclaimed idiot or bed wetting tree hugger may want to stop reading here. Cartridge reloading, in general, isn’t idiot proof. Attempting something foolish with any cartridge reload could lead to disastrous results. I say this because I don’t need to read someone post “What’s going to happen if someone accidentally loads the cartridge full of Bullseye and tries to shoot it out of a Walker?” Well, what do you think is going to happen? Probably a junior version of if someone loads up a .45 Colt cartridge with Red Dot and tries that in a Walker. Right?...just a smaller mushroom cloud.

Note that no where in this thread will you see me advocate loading up a .45 BPM cartridge with 60 grains of BP and firing it from a Walker. I only mention the maximum capacity because I know someone will ask. It is possible it could make for a fun little carbine rifle cartridge. Without thorough testing and analysis I have no idea what kind of pressure may be generated. It depends on the firearm, the amount of BP used, and the weight of the projectile to mention a few important factors. I am confident, however, that there is room for shooting more than the 40 grain limit of a .45 Colt in the .45 BPM. There are a few BP bullets that may be of interest to try out with more than 40 grains of BP. Specifically, one example is a 150 grain BigLube .45 caliber bullet that may be a good substitution for a round ball. Speaking of round balls, there isn’t any reason you couldn’t load up some “gallery loads” using your typical soft lead round ball. When I say “gallery load” I’m really not talking about in the traditional sense. Rather I mean it as a cartridge loaded with a round ball. A round ball with 50 grains of BP just may be a decent substitute for shooting a Walker cap-n-ball style with a similar load of BP.

I still plan on shooting this Walker cap-n-ball style. I just thought I’d mix it up a bit by having the option to shoot the .45 BPM cartridge in it too. I haven’t shot the Walker yet with a .45 BPM cartridge. I’m still waiting for the weather to cool down a bit more. ClemBert’s shooting range looks like a hayfield right now. The last hay cutting for the season should be soon then I’ll be good to go. The first loads will most likely be 40 grains of FFFg, grits for filler, and a 250 grain BigLube bullet. Without further adieu, here are a few pics for your viewing pleasure.

.45 BPM (left) .45 Colt (right)

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/SyberTiger/Firearms/Colt%20Walker/Walker45BPM-1.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/SyberTiger/Firearms/Colt%20Walker/Walker45BPM-2.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/SyberTiger/Firearms/Colt%20Walker/Walker45BPM-3.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/SyberTiger/Firearms/Colt%20Walker/Walker45BPM-4.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/SyberTiger/Firearms/Colt%20Walker/Walker45BPM-5.jpg

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bubba15301
October 11, 2010, 09:37 PM
what case did you use?

ClemBert
October 11, 2010, 09:39 PM
.460 S&W Magnum.

Pulp
October 11, 2010, 10:03 PM
I've considered doing that with my R&D conversion. Those extra long cartridges would really raise eyebrows at a SASS match! Never have done it, I don't think the Walker frame would hold up very long with max loads, and 1000fps is the speed limit for revolvers in SASS. Might make a heckuva hog or deer load though.

Good luck with the project and keep us informed.

Olmontanaboy
October 11, 2010, 10:19 PM
Outstanding! I love it!

ClemBert
October 11, 2010, 10:38 PM
I don't think the Walker frame would hold up very long with max loads, and 1000fps is the speed limit for revolvers in SASS. Might make a heckuva hog or deer load though.

Yup, I think the 255 grain bullets with 60 grains of BP should be reserved for some kind of novelty carbine rifle. The 150 grain BigLube bullet probably comes closest to mimicking a 141 grain round ball projectile. That bullet may or may not work well with a 50-54 grain load. There are a number of issues at play that I won't get into right now. The problem with a large bullet and lots of powder is the pressure that could/would develop.

I haven't shot at a SASS event. I don't know if this would even be "legal" there. I assume not. But you're right. Even with a 35 grain load and a 250 grain bullet you'd probably get some weird looks with the cartridges sitting on the table.

BTW, I am aware of a gunsmith working on a carbine rifle based on a Walker and a 45-70 casing cut down to length. I'd love to hear from which ever one of y'all is working with that gunsmith.

Tommygunn
October 11, 2010, 11:34 PM
The mid 19th century version of Dirty Harry would love that gun!!
And even I am drooling ....

flibuste
October 12, 2010, 04:12 AM
Hello,

Very nice job !!

FYI I have shot Lee 255grs bullets with 30grs BP with good results in a Walker


This load has not stressed the frame ( but I did not test on the long run)


http://i82.servimg.com/u/f82/11/02/14/58/azpkbn12.jpg

Have fun

Oyeboten
October 12, 2010, 04:30 AM
Very nice ClemBert!


Let us know what the Chrony says?

Foto Joe
October 12, 2010, 10:47 AM
ClemBert, that thing is "Sweet"!! It just makes me want to go to my local indoor range and shoot it. Of course I would be wearing a breathing apparatus and carrying a fire extinguisher to put out my target.

Packman
October 12, 2010, 03:12 PM
Clembert, that's pretty sweet. My brother is an engineer, I know how you all are with your solutions looking for problems.

Looks like a very well-done setup. Let us know how it shoots!

Nicodemus38
October 12, 2010, 10:08 PM
im advocated simply drilling the original or kirst cylinder out and simply using a 454 case loaded with original bp loads for the colt walker that are proven safe in the gun.

Oyeboten
October 12, 2010, 11:04 PM
The diameter of the Ball of course, where it fits into the Cartridge, vis-a-vie, the diameter of the Barrel, is a consideration of course.


The .460 S & W Magnum Case, normally holds a .452 Bullet.


Maybe could be fire-formed to instead hold a .454 or .455 Bullet if Cylinder Chambers allowed.

BP makes enough pressure to Fire-Form a straight walled Cartridge Case to be chubbier, if one needs it to be.



I know in my Walker, a .452 Ball would just roll down through the Barrel.



Jus' thinking out loud...

ClemBert
October 12, 2010, 11:26 PM
im advocated simply drilling the original or kirst cylinder out and simply using a 454 case loaded with original bp loads for the colt walker that are proven safe in the gun.

I considered the .454 Casull casing. It failed the criteria I had set. By my calculations if a .45 Colt holds 40 grains of FFFg then a .454 Casull casing will only hold about 44 grains (about 10% more). The .45 BPM will hold 58 - 60 grains. Also, the .454 Casull casing still leaves quite a gap to the forcing cone.

arcticap
October 12, 2010, 11:31 PM
What a fascinating project!:)
With the .460 S&W Magnum case having a length of 1.8 inches, at least 2 balls could be loaded into each cartridge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.460_S&W_Magnum

ClemBert
October 12, 2010, 11:50 PM
The diameter of the Ball of course, where it fits into the Cartridge, vis-a-vie, the diameter of the Barrel, is a consideration of course.

The .460 S & W Magnum Case, normally holds a .452 Bullet.

Maybe could be fire-formed to instead hold a .454 or .455 Bullet if Cylinder Chambers allowed.

BP makes enough pressure to Fire-Form a straight walled Cartridge Case to be chubbier, if one needs it to be.

Yes, I previously mentioned that there are some "issues at play".

The Kirst Konverter for the Uberti Walker is designed for 0.452 diameter .45 Colt bullets. As such there is reliance on obturation of the bullet. That is, the base of the bullet flaring under the pressure. This seals the bore. Typically, softer lead bullets do a better job of this. The bore diameter (lands) of my Walker is 0.439. A 0.452 bullet will not roll through the barrel. However, because my groove diameter is greater than 0.452 obturation is important. Alloy content could be important. Keep in mind that on my cap-n-ball cylinder the chambers are 0.450 so a 0.452 bullet is actually larger than a round ball to be fired cap-n-ball style.

With regards to 0.454 round balls there are a couple of ways to make them work. First, the .45 Colt reloading dies do have an expander die that will flare out the cartridge. Also, as you indicated, it may be useful to skip using the .45 Colt resizing die. Basically, just use unsized fired brass. Not only is this a consideration for loading a 0.454 round ball but some thought has to be given as to whether or not there will be an unusual amount of blow back with sized casings. Bullet selection, the charge, case sizing, and crimping are some of the considerations.

Both gas cutting and blow back are a couple of things to think about.

Oyeboten
October 13, 2010, 12:10 AM
Hi Clembert,


I have a couple old Revolvers where regular .45 Colt was a little too small for the Cylinder Bores and Barrel...so, I fire formed some Cases for them, and then was able to thumb-press a .454 Bullet into the Cartridge case.


Someday when I can finally get onto firing up my Metal Lathe I would like to make a set of re-loading Dies for managing these Cartridges.


As it is I have been managing to do a good crimp using an old .45-70 Crimp Die...but am at a loss for re-sizing, which has not been a problem yet, but, one of the Revolvers is a little smaller in the Cylinder Bores, so now Cartridges which fit the more ample one, will not fit that one...so, being able to re-size for the smaller of the two would be nice.


I am confident, that if you wanted to do so, you could ream or step-ream your Cylinder Bores a little larger, for the thence to be fire-formed .460 S&W Magnum Cartridge Cases, to hold and crimp a .454 or .455 Bullet.


Obviously you are very skilled at Metal Working and Gunsmithing, so, I would expect you could also make some dedicated re-loading dies for this, which would sure be cool..!

ClemBert
October 13, 2010, 09:41 AM
Obviously you are very skilled at Metal Working and Gunsmithing, so, I would expect you could also make some dedicated re-loading dies for this, which would sure be cool..!

Unfortunately, you couldn't be farther from the truth. I can't take credit where credit is deserved. I used the services of two different gunsmiths to complete this project. The names of these gunsmiths would be recognized by many folks on this forum. They have the expertise and the CNC equipment. I only get credit for seeing this project through.

As for reloading dies there isn't anything special that is needed. I have Lee .460 S&W Magnum and .45 Colt reload dies. The beauty is that that's all there is needed to reload various cartridges for this Walker.

Oyeboten
October 13, 2010, 02:05 PM
But .45 Colt or .460 Dies would not be able to re-size Cases for using .455 Bullets, is what I meant.


That is the issue I am running into with my .45 Colt Revolvers which have generous Bores...and for which the usual .453 Bullets are too small.


Really lovely project and the WALKER looks mighty good with those mods!

ClemBert
October 13, 2010, 04:25 PM
But .45 Colt or .460 Dies would not be able to re-size Cases for using .455 Bullets, is what I meant.

I guess I'm not understanding your reference to 0.455 diameter bullets. Perhaps you are just trying to figure out a solution for your old .45 Colt revolvers rather than wondering how I would get a 0.455 bullet into a .45 BPM.

What I was trying to point out is that the Walker with a Kirst Konverter supposedly should be able to shoot .45 Colt cartridges with 0.452 diameter bullets without a problem. Because the Uberti Walker can be expected to have a groove diameter greater than 0.452 we need to rely on soft lead bullets to flare out under pressure from the burning BP. This, hopefully, will obturate the barrel and prevent gas cutting. Again, a 0.452 bullet is already 0.002 larger than a shaved round ball shot from the cap-n-ball cylinder. For this particular Walker I'm trying to understand the desire to use a 0.455 bullet although I will admit that with a larger bullet less reliance would be placed on flaring of the bullet.

Technically, a 0.451 round ball in a cartridge also is larger than a shaved 0.450 round ball in the cap-n-ball cylinder chambers. 0.450 is the diameter of the chambers on this Walker's cap-n-ball cylinder. So....if a 0.454 round ball shaved down to 0.450 in the cap-n-ball cylinder works then logically a 0.451 unshaved "should" do the job. And, a 0.451 should easily slide into the casing.

Now, regarding a 0.454 round ball in a cartridge...

For the sake of discussion let us assume we want to load either a 0.454 round ball or a 0.454 bullet into the .460 S&W Magnum casing. To make this easier we can either use the flaring die of the .45 Colt die set to flare the case. This would allow a 0.454 projectile to squeeze in. Another route to take is to use brass that was already fired in this Walker and therefore expanded larger than an unfired casing. By skipping the resizing step that "shrinks" the case back down you would be working with a larger diameter casing. This in theory only as I do not have any fired cases. I can say that the chambers on the conversion cylinder are 0.482. If there is enough pressure built up to prevent blow back the cases will expand to 0.482. Likely they'll bounce back to a smaller diameter as the pressure dissipates. What the final diameter is is anyone's guess. I do know that resized brass takes it back down to 0.474 (external diameter).

Likely, with the chamber diameters of 0.482, the fit will be so tight as to make the use of 0.454 conical bullet undesirable. However, with round balls there is actually very little surface contact (at 0.454) with the inside of the casing. Read this to mean that using 0.454 round balls is probably do-able although a very tight fit. Theoretically, if the walls of the casing are thicker than 0.014 then the math says its a no-go. The casings I've measure are right at about 0.014 in thickness. Ergo, a very tight fit!

So where does one go to get 0.452 soft lead round balls?

ClemBert
October 13, 2010, 04:33 PM
With the .460 S&W Magnum case having a length of 1.8 inches, at least 2 balls could be loaded into each cartridge.

Yes, it would seem that one could load two 0.451 round ball in a cartridge. I would assume that you'd have to be very careful to pack the area where the balls touch with a filler material. Without that packing you'd have an air gap between the balls. Sounds potentially risky. No? :confused:

Discuss....

junkman_01
October 13, 2010, 04:49 PM
It's not dangerous and no 'packing' is necessary. I've tried it in my .45 Colt, but accuracy was poor to say the least. Here is an article describing the process...
http://www.castpics.net/memberarticles/Round%20Ball%20Loads...Final%20edit.htm

Oyeboten
October 14, 2010, 05:30 AM
Oh...yeah, I was thinking the WALKER Bore was a little large for a .452.

ClemBert
October 14, 2010, 09:55 AM
Here is an article describing the process...

Thanks for the link junkman. Good read.

I was thinking the WALKER Bore was a little large for a .452.

From what I've seen posted of the Uberti made Walkers the bore is right near 0.440. Mine is 0.439-0.440.

Pulp
October 14, 2010, 10:31 AM
I never have measured my R&D cylinder or the barrel bore, but mine shoots pretty darn good with .452 bullets. I was able to regularly hit a 16X16 inch steel plate at 100 yards with mine.

scrat
October 16, 2010, 04:46 PM
ALL i can say is one thing.

I HATE YOU.

NOW give me my cylinder back. Man i so want one now. If i still had my lathe. You know any machinist can make you a set of dies to reload so easy. Please keep me posted.

Oyeboten
October 17, 2010, 12:33 AM
Hi ClemBert,


Ye'd asked -


So where does one go to get 0.452 soft lead round balls?



Just run any old .454 Balls through a Lubri-sizing/Bullet-Sizing Die of .452 Diameter.


I made some Double-Ball Black Powder Cartridges in .45 Colt, and to do so, I ran the erstwhile .457 Balls through a .454 Die in my Bullet Sizer.

Works really well...

Oyeboten
October 17, 2010, 12:39 AM
Hi ClemBert,


Ye'd also asked -


Yes, it would seem that one could load two 0.451 round ball in a cartridge. I would assume that you'd have to be very careful to pack the area where the balls touch with a filler material. Without that packing you'd have an air gap between the balls. Sounds potentially risky. No?

Discuss....




Merely elect by experiment, the amount of Black Powder which will compress beneath the lower Ball, for the 2nd, upper Ball to have it's Equator at the lip of the Cartridge Case for it to be well crimped.


Re-sizing a .457 Ball to in your case, .452, ( Maybe in stages, or, if less so, re-sizing a .454 Ball in one pass ) would give you a nice Equator for Crimp into, too.


The .45 Colt 'Double-Ball' Cartridges I made a handfull of to try out, made only one normal hole in the Paper Target at 30 feet...so, the Balls did not appear to be wandering at all in my experience, they stayed one right behind the other.

Foto Joe
October 17, 2010, 09:20 AM
The .45 Colt 'Double-Ball' Cartridges I made a handfull of to try out, made only one normal hole in the Paper Target at 30 feet...so, the Balls did not appear to be wandering at all in my experience, they stayed one right behind the other.

Arrrghhh!!!
You guys are killin' me here!! Just when I think that I've got my ducks all neatly lined up in a tight row, you gotta go and bring up the fact that I can actually load "more than one" RB into those 45 Colt cartridges I've been so diligently stuffing with BP.

I'm a little confused though on the part about re-sizing the balls down to .452. I realize that the standard for 45 Colt is .452 bu I've been shooting the .454's with no problems. It's early and cold out so I don't have a caliper in front of me, but I've mic'd the barrel and there's plenty of room for the .454

As far as the brass is concerned, I've stopped re-sizing to reduce the blow-back but even before, seating a .454 wasn't an issue.

Oyeboten, why don't you start another thread and post your pet load for the double ball loads.

ClemBert
October 18, 2010, 04:34 PM
NOW give me my cylinder back.

To quote the late Charlton Heston:

"From my cold, dead hands." :neener:

andrewstorm
February 2, 2011, 11:57 AM
Clembert,please mark this cylinder,.45 black powder magnum only,you can imagine what would happen if a fully loaded smokeless round were loaded into the chamber of this fine specimen of American ingenuity:eek:,have you any idea if 60 grains bp could be safely fired from this big beauty?would lighter loads require the use of corn meal?

Oyeboten
February 3, 2011, 04:45 PM
Hi FoTo Joe,



For any given size diameter one wishes to use, where, it is a Ball...and in a Metallic Cartridge...

If you start off with a slightly larger Ball, and, re-size it to the desired diameter, you will have a nice 1/8th inch wide or so 'Equator' to Crimp the Case into.

This also adds a few more Grains in weight, for the Ball...and, nothing wrong with that!


Using a Ball which is already the final diameter as-is, one has no real Equator to crimp into, or, it is mathematically infinitely narrow in width anyway...and or far less satisfyning to Crimp to, anyway.


Having several sizing Dies, and, a Lubrisizer or whatever, is handy for this, of course.


For Double-Ball, in any given Cartridge Case, with Black Powder, simply find out impirically how much Powder to have, for the first Ball to crush into for a good compression, where, the position of the second Ball will then end up right for the desired Crimp to occur for the Ball's Equator, to be centered on or at the Cartridge Mouth Lip's edge.


Smokeless Double-Ball Loads freighten me to think about, since, one is not compressing the Powder, and, usuaully, one would have an Air Space in the Cartridge, and, there is no good way to locate the first Ball to ensure it can not or will not drift further in or fall 'down', where, a potentially very dangerous or even catastrophic Loading Density could result.

Also, one would have to make some pretty careful ;calculations for determining what Loading Density one has, or, wishes to have, if using a non-bulky Smokeless like Bullseye or Unique even.

One could probably use a Cannelure making engine or Device to make a deep Cannelure which would locate the first Ball correctly, for managing the Loading Density one has determined to be optimum with the Smokless Powder one intends to use.


As for me, I have not made any Smokeless Double Ball Cartridges, and, if I ever do, I will certainly have a method ( deep Cannalure to locate the first Ball ) and be very careful and methodical with it and the calculations permitting it to be done safely, and, this would only be for some Modern Revolver or other, like a M1917 .45 or something I s'pose.


'777', being nice and bulky, the first Ball merely sits on the powder with no compression, of course.


The Black Powder Double Ball Cartridges I did make up for experiment, did very nicely.

At 30 feet, the two Balls made one perfect Hole every time, no different than one Ball would make...but, of course, their FPS was lower than it would have been with one Ball or with a same weight as 'two' Balls, of Bullet/Boolit, since the two Balls use up so much room, and, the resulting Powder Charge then is quite a bit less.


Now, in a conversion which can use the .460 Cartridge Case, I exoect there is enough room for a pretty peppy Black Powder Double Ball Load, since the Case is a lot longer.


I am sure I did a few Double Ball Loadings in my Cap & Ball Revolvers...I know I have, but, I forget what sort of FPS I was getting with that, other than, slower than usual single Ball, of course.

bubba15301
February 24, 2011, 12:53 AM
Clembert do you have any range results and chronograph data?

ClemBert
February 24, 2011, 10:36 AM
Bubba,

It's very preliminary at this point. I have film footage I'm still analyzing. I had posted the following in TFL yesterday. I didn't post it in this forum yet.

=========================================================

You are looking at an Uberti Walker sitting in a test fixture that is used to evaluate test firing certain cartridges. This Walker was converted to fire the .45 BPM cartridge. The question is: Why is the flame non-symmetric? Notice how the flame jets out downward. Discuss...

Sorry for the poor quality of the picture. It was taken from a camcorder on a bright sunny day with the sun at its highest point.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/SyberTiger/Firearms/Colt%20Walker/45BPMFlashIIjpg.jpg

The .45 BPM cartridge being fired contains 55 grains of Goex FFFg, a fiber wad, and a 150 grain Biglube bullet (second from the right). That's a .45 Colt on the left side.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/SyberTiger/Firearms/Reloading/Bullets010.jpg

junkman_01
February 24, 2011, 11:53 AM
The crown is not symmetrical is my guess.

arcticap
February 24, 2011, 12:12 PM
I think that what's seen in the photo is totally normal. It resembles the downward draft behind a large aircraft that's airborne. Behind it there's a vortice of downward turbulence, a downward wake of circulating air that lasts for a period of time.
It's simply an air circulation pattern that originates from the bullet surface creating an obstacle to the air flowing around it as it travels at high speed when exiting the barrel tube.
I believe that some of the relevant concepts involved are vortex (or vortice), airfoils and airflow, Bernoulli's Principle, and the venturi effect.
What I've read points to this downward airflow as being normal.

mykeal
February 24, 2011, 12:58 PM
An aircraft wake is actually two counter-rotating horizontal vortices; the direction of flow at any given point will vary in every direction at various times depending on location with respect to the aircraft. It's actually very well defined mathematically. Those vortices are the reason a heavier-than-air vehicle can fly. The downward characteristic immediately behind the aircraft, and of the air mass itself, is due to the vortices both rotating inward towards the aircraft.

That's not the case here. A bullet or round ball lacks the airfoils that create the vortices in an aircraft wake. While their trajectory is influenced by ambient air currents, their flight path is ballistic - they're not 'flying' in the sense of a powered aircraft or even a sailplane.

The wake behind a bullet is a series of shed vortices which are harder to describe mathematically; Strouhal theory is usually used. I don't believe what you're seeing is wake effect. A burning gas is plasma; you can cause the gas field to flow in a certain direction with application of enough air flow, but movement within the field is essentially random, mathematically characterized by chaos theory.

If we had a series of photographs from different shots all showing the same characteristic I'd say there was a barrel or projectile anomaly, but one photograph isn't sufficient to make that case. I'm voting for random motion within the gas field.

arcticap
February 24, 2011, 01:50 PM
I would tend to disagree with you mykeal because the bullet is known to exit the barrel at a slight upward angle due to the sighting plane. I think that creates an airfoil effect which causes the airflow (circulation pattern) to pass over the top of the bullet faster than the air passing under the bullet.
This is where Bernoulli's Principle takes effect which states that the downdraft will be created behind the bullet.
With airplanes, the downdraft residual wake is so severe that small planes are warned to stay out of the wake for a minute or two to allow it to dissipate.
Here the downward wake isn't as severe but I believe that it can exist as illustrated by the muzzle blast photo.
There's even a Chuck Hawk's article that acknowledges the rising bullet angle as it leaves the barrel. Even if the rising bullet angle is simply due to sight alignment and not the bullet actually rising above the bore axis, I believe that the effect of an airfoil is created and that's why Bernoulli's Principle explains why the downdraft exists.
The bullet is not an airfoil, but it sets up a circulation pattern that acts just like a small piece or segment of an airfoil. Especially after the bullet exits the barrel at an upward angle.
It fun to speculate even without having a Ph.D.! ;)

On most occasions the barrel is slanted upward slightly to compensate for this immediate drop; thus, for all but extreme shots, since the barrel is aimed slightly upward, the bullet does, indeed, rise slightly after it leaves the barrel, but it bullet never rises above the axis of the barrel. (Just like a football generally rises above the player when they throw a pass. The longer the pass, the greater the starting angle, and the higher the "rise" before the ball begins to fall.)....
....Typical Alignment. Generally, for what we consider a "horizontal" shot, the sight alignment places the barrel in a slightly upward tilt, and the bullet starts its arc, rises slightly above the level of the muzzle, but never above the axis of the barrel, reaches a peak, then descends.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/bullet_trajectory.htm

Curator
February 24, 2011, 08:49 PM
Two Uberti Walker bores I measured came to .440 (land) .456 (groove). One was purchased last year and the other about 8 years ago. So this may be pretty standard. My 2nd Model Dragoon (also Uberti) has similar bore measurements. .452 bullets will lead the bore and give up accuracy unless very soft, and backed by black powder or some kind of ballistic filler.

ClemBert
February 24, 2011, 09:19 PM
Two Uberti Walker bores I measured came to .440 (land) .456 (groove). One was purchased last year and the other about 8 years ago. So this may be pretty standard. My 2nd Model Dragoon (also Uberti) has similar bore measurements. .452 bullets will lead the bore and give up accuracy unless very soft, and backed by black powder or some kind of ballistic filler.

If you measure your cap-n-ball cylinder chambers you'll probably find a measurement similar to mine...0.450. This means the shaved round ball is going to be 0.450 or even smaller than a 0.452 bullet. Does this mean that round balls will lead the bore too?

The BHN for my bullets is about an 8.

Voodoochile
February 24, 2011, 09:55 PM
Two Uberti Walker bores I measured came to .440 (land) .456 (groove). One was purchased last year and the other about 8 years ago. So this may be pretty standard. My 2nd Model Dragoon (also Uberti) has similar bore measurements. .452 bullets will lead the bore and give up accuracy unless very soft, and backed by black powder or some kind of ballistic filler.

The main reason why I reamed the chambers on my Pietta NMA because the grove diameter was .4495 & the chambers were .4460, now they are .4510 which I beleive helped in accuracy with the conicals.

Clembert;
I'd look at some other photos or video of your revolver to see if it is consistently flaming like that because it could be either some recoil effect that you ant redily see or it could be a crown issue.

Hoof Hearted
February 24, 2011, 11:27 PM
:uhoh:ClemBert

Are you ever going to hold that thing in your hand and fire it?

I have been regularly shooting 60gr of 3f swiss in mine behind a 250 gr .454 bullet with spg:neener:

ClemBert
February 24, 2011, 11:42 PM
Are you ever going to hold that thing in your hand and fire it?

I have been regularly shooting 60gr of 3f swiss in mine behind a 250 gr .454 bullet with spg

Oh, that's been done. The video footage is actually more useful in working out the reloading bugs....just not as fun as firing off hand.

Curator
February 25, 2011, 06:57 AM
Pure lead round balls rarely lead when using real black powder even if undersize (and unlubed). Not only will they obturate as they hit the forcing cone but real black doesn't seem to have the pressure/temperatures needed to erode/melt lead from the sides of the ball as it escapes down the grooves. Smokeless does. Black powder is also known to pack the forward protion of the charge compressed and unburned behind the ball acting like a filler and preventing blow-by. With most C&B revolvers about half of the charge is converted to gas before the ball exits the muzzle. This accounts for the muzzle flash/flame and report. Heavier charges usually result in more velocity because they add to bullet weight, pressure, and burning efficiency, not because they are burned in the barrel.

ClemBert
February 25, 2011, 10:12 AM
The .45 BPM only shoots with BP. There was a specific reason why I dubbed it BPM (Black Powder Magnum). The max load is 60 grains FFFg. I load with a 0.030 fiber wad between the BP and the projectile. I'm not expecting leading but I'm gonna have fun experimenting to see the results.

mykeal
February 25, 2011, 12:11 PM
arcticap -

I'd be happy to discuss this further, but perhaps we should do so in a new thread; I am uncomfortable with the degree to which I've already hijacked the gentleman's thread. I will start one if you like.

alienbogey
February 26, 2011, 11:38 PM
I don't have a Walker yet but when I do I'll want a 45BPM cylinder for it.

Racebannon
February 28, 2011, 02:13 PM
ClemBert,

That is the coolest concept gun I've seen in a while. I really enjoyed your writings and this thread. Maybe someday I'll take the plunge and have one built.

rifle
March 10, 2011, 03:35 AM
The balls in a cap&ball chamber aren't more accurate because of less "bullet jump".That's actally funny.
The chambers of the cap&ballers are so often tapered and a ball seated further in the chamber is swagged smaller. The closer it is to the opening of the chamber mouth the less it is swagged smaller. It's not "bullet jump" that affects the accuracy. It's the swaqgging smaller of the ball the deeper it is in the tapered chamber that affects the accuracy for the worse.
Most Italian cap&ballers have somewhat tapered chambers maybe to insure a good gas seal against chain fires.
A good way to get rid of "bullet jump" problems is to ream a chamber in a cap&baller to be a uniform diameter. The problem isn't longer bullet jump but is smaller swagged balls in tapered chambers.
Anyway, with a cap&baller conversion to cartridge the use of heeled or hollow based bullets can solve chamber and groove diameter problems/differences if you don't want to depend on obsturation of the lead.
One thing to note is that a Walker doesn't take a full 60gr. poder when using a conical bullet. I think with a 250gr. bullet it would be closer to 50gr. max powder.
Someone mentioned reaming an original cylinder to a 45 chamber and I have to say the notches in the cylinder would be paper thin and/or break thru.
Anyway it is a cool idea to use 460S&W brass in a Walker conversion.

BCRider
March 10, 2011, 02:18 PM
Mykeal and articap, on the topic of airflow, Bernoulli, et all. As someone that has designed and flown model airplanes for more decades than I care to remember and studied what makes a plane fly almost as long I'd have to suggest that much of what occurs around an airplane's wing has very little to do with bullets exiting a gun barrel and precious little while in flight.

An airplane wing's function is to bend the air and accelerate it downwards. When doing this it creates a pressure difference between the lower and upper sides that results in "waste" vortices that come off the wingtips due to some undesireable but unavoidable span wise airflow.

Meanwhile a bullet or ball in flight is a symetrical shape passing through the air with a zero angle of attack. As such it has more in common with a golf ball than a wing surface. With a symetrical shape and no angle of attack the airflow around the bullet or ball will not produce any lift and therefore the flow all around it will be symetrical other than some fluctuating turbulence that wraps around behind and tends to whip about and come in from quickly changing points of the clock around the bullets edge. Without lift there is no downwash, sidewash or anything else. If there was our bullets would respond to any lift by moving to the side, up or down in all manner of confusion and we'd be lucky to hit the side of a barn. Instead we're left with just some fluctuating turbulence in the wake of the ball or bullet. Think of how a flag whips in the wind due to the airflow off the flag pole as an example of this effect.

And while actually in the barrel and upon first exiting the barrel none of the above applies. It's just a plug caught between two pressure zones in a bore. A very high pressure zone behind and a low one ahead which is pushed out of the way. Although technically Bernoulli's laws apply to that situation the effect will be unnoticable since there is no direction changes or obstructions in the "pipe".

All of which means it's still an oddity to me why Clembert's test shots all show the blast aiming down so strongly. My guess is that since the cylinder gap opens up to vent off some pressure long before the bullet leaves the muzzle crown perhaps there's a shock wave effect from the pressure peak at the gap that travels forward and affects the muzzle blast. But that's only a guess on my part. My other best guess is to agree with an earlier post about the muzzle crown being less than idea.

However it's given with the pretty darned sound knowledge that the muzzle blast being directed so much down as shown has zero to do with any lifting or other aerodynamics effects of the bullet.

ClemBert
March 10, 2011, 03:42 PM
The muzzle crown has been inspected. There doesn't appear to be any issue with it. The firearm certainly seems to be accurate from the distances I've fired it from.

I posted the link to the video in another thread but I'll also post it here for completeness of the thread. The video has the complete set of flame images I was able to recover from the action footage.

Test Firing the .45 BPM in a Converted 1847 Walker Dragoon Revolver (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCrnpH64Qz8)

I'll be doing some more testing soon so hopefully we'll have some more images to look at for grins. :D

Oyeboten
March 10, 2011, 08:16 PM
Hi Clembert,


I am curious about the WALKER Cylinder not having WALKER Indexing 'Ovals'.


I thought the WALKER and First Dragoons had Oval Cylinder Indexing notches, and, the Secind and Third Dragoons had the kinds of Notches your Cylinder has, being, rectangular instead of Oval.

ClemBert
March 10, 2011, 08:41 PM
That's right. The cap-n-ball cylinder has oval notches and the Kirst cylinder has rectangular notches. The bolt (cylinder stop) works with both.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/SyberTiger/Firearms/Colt%20Walker/WalkerCylinder001.jpg

Oyeboten
March 10, 2011, 10:40 PM
Oh!


Very cool...


I have a Colt 2nd Generation 3rd Dragoon I recently got, with a view of converting it in this way...then I remembered about the Notches and was not sure where I was at with that.

ClemBert
March 15, 2011, 01:58 PM
Yup, you can fit a Walker conversion cylinder into a 3rd Dragoon but then you have to cut the cylinder side of the barrel down to make the conversion cylinder fit. Then you have to re-do the forcing cone. Its been done but then you can't go back to cap-n-ball shooting once you do that with the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Dragoon. Cap-n-ball shooting is just too much of a hoot, for me, to eliminate that option. Let us know how your project turns out.

alienbogey
March 16, 2011, 06:12 PM
I recently obtained an 1847 Walker reproduction and have been following this thread with great interest. Should I decide to go for a 45BPM I would first obtain a gated Kirst conversion cylinder, of course, and enlarge the loading cutout on the right side to allow loading of cartridges. Next would be reaming the cylinder for the 460S&W/45BPM cartridge, and I would prefer to have that done by the smith that has done yours because of his having done it before.

Questions:

Would you be willing to share his name, via PM if you prefer, should I decide to go for this?

Are you going to mark your cases in any way with BPM?

Although I don't own anything in 460S&W, I would surely want some way of indelibly marking 45BPM cases so I would KNOW that they have are BPM loaded. I don't imagine dedicated head stamped 45BPM cases will be at Cabela's anytime soon.....

Finally, I went to Wikipedia and there's a very informative article on the 45BPM there. Out of curiosity and since my impression is that you're the originator of this, did you you write it?

ClemBert
March 16, 2011, 06:28 PM
I'm certainly not advocating anyone follow in my footsteps. I thought I'd just share with y'all one of my many projects. Anyone who attempts such a modification should understand the risks ahead of time and take personal responsibility for their actions. Read this as: Do not try this at home kids. Attempting to emulate my actions could lead to a dangerous condition which could result in death or injury to you or others as well as possible damage to property. DON'T DO IT!!!!

Now, with that disclaimer to warn/urge others not to attempt this I'd better just PM ya. :D

Oyeboten
March 16, 2011, 10:57 PM
Hi Clembert,

I actually have three 3rd Model Dragoons, one an older Armi San Marco ( which seems like a very good, very well made one, luckily), and, two, 2nd Generation Colt ones.

I would not mind converting one of the Colts for it to then be a dedicated 'Conversion' which can not be put back to Cap & Ball, since I have the other two to enjoy Shooting as Cap & Ball Revolvers.


So, anything you would feel comfortable to 'PM' to me about the steps and or Smiths and so on, would be much appreciated.


Such an appealing 'Conversion' in both looks and uniqueness and power, thanks so much for pioneering it and sharing your own Work with us!

TheRodDoc
March 17, 2011, 06:51 AM
I don't think there is anything wrong with the muzzle blast in this picture. It is the smoke that is down and toward the camera a little that is being lit up by the blast. Making it look like it is all blast when the real blast shape is about as I drew in green.
And being daylight we are only seeing the brightest part of the blast.

The cyl. gap blast has the same smoke distortion effect. (all of a sudden spreading front to rear up higher).

Must have been a good breeze that day. Try shooting directly into the wind next time.

138487

pageophile
March 17, 2011, 04:35 PM
OK, this is just about the most Stupid AWESOME thing I've seen in a while.

An I do mean that in a good way :D

Thank you so much for sharing.

However, my incoming Walker might not be so happy with my new found information though ;)

arcticap
March 17, 2011, 05:00 PM
Finally, I went to Wikipedia and there's a very informative article on the 45BPM there. Out of curiosity and since my impression is that you're the originator of this, did you you write it?

I noticed that in the upper right hand column of the Wikipedia page for the .45 BPM is the following entry naming the designer. Maybe he wrote the article.

Production history

Designer Dieska
Designed 2010

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Black_Powder_Magnum_(.45_BPM)

Afy
March 17, 2011, 05:10 PM
I want one.

Oyeboten
March 17, 2011, 08:09 PM
I would not expect any troubles from this Conversion as long as one stays with sensible Bullet Weights.

Too heavy of a Bullet with a full as possible BP charge behind it...is about all I can imagine which c-o-u-l-d, m-a-y-be, occasion some regrets.

pageophile
March 18, 2011, 12:40 PM
To ClemBert,

Was wondering about the area behind the Kriss Converter looks like it was machined out (compared to the stock Uberti) to allow proper loading of the cartridge.

Was this done by a gunsmith? Looking at the Kriss site it also shows the relief machining to load the cartridge but the Uberti site a different set-up.

Sorry if this is a stupid question.

ClemBert
March 18, 2011, 12:54 PM
This is the BEFORE pic:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/SyberTiger/Firearms/Colt%20Walker/ColtWalker1.jpg

This is the AFTER pic:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/SyberTiger/Firearms/Colt%20Walker/Walker45BPM-4.jpg

Jay Strite of Raven's Roost/Kirst was the gunsmith who channeled out the recoil shield. The job is as professional as to believe it came from the factory this way.

ClemBert
March 18, 2011, 01:04 PM
I don't think there is anything wrong with the muzzle blast in this picture. It is the smoke that is down and toward the camera a little that is being lit up by the blast. Making it look like it is all blast when the real blast shape is about as I drew in green.
And being daylight we are only seeing the brightest part of the blast.

The cyl. gap blast has the same smoke distortion effect. (all of a sudden spreading front to rear up higher).

Must have been a good breeze that day. Try shooting directly into the wind next time.

That's a very good point! Yes, as I recall it was a very windy day....15-20 mph winds.

Hoof Hearted
March 18, 2011, 06:55 PM
I noticed that in the upper right hand column of the Wikipedia page for the .45 BPM is the following entry naming the designer. Maybe he wrote the article.
This has been done many times.........
Here's mine:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c91/buckoff123/100_1893.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c91/buckoff123/100_1889.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c91/buckoff123/100_1888.jpg

Not trying to disparage Clembert in any way ;)


Jay Strite (Raven's Roost) and I collaborated on this starting back in 2009 and Walt and I kicked the idea around for quite some time before that with the idea of a 5 shot using, first 45-70 then 444 Marlin cases. The advent of the 460 S&W just made it a breeze!

Hoof Hearted
March 18, 2011, 06:57 PM
Yup, you can fit a Walker conversion cylinder into a 3rd Dragoon but then you have to cut the cylinder side of the barrel down to make the conversion cylinder fit. Then you have to re-do the forcing cone. Its been done but then you can't go back to cap-n-ball shooting once you do that with the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Dragoon. Cap-n-ball shooting is just too much of a hoot, for me, to eliminate that option. Let us know how your project turns out.

Actually you can still shoot Cap and Ball after doing this if you procure yourself a Walker cylinder.............

mr.trooper
March 18, 2011, 07:19 PM
If you're worried about excess pressure with the 150gr bullets over the long run...

Why not just seat a 140gr round ball into the cartridge? Swage it if you have to.

That way you have the same bullet jump as a standard cap and ball load AND the same pressures, all while allowing you to take advantage of the Kirst converters reloading speed.

OR you could just drill a cavity into the nose of your heavier bullets - make them a hollow point. That would lower the weight without having an appreciable effect of accuracy. It would be a fast and simple operation for anyone with a drill press.

Oyeboten
March 19, 2011, 03:49 AM
Clembert, Hoof Hearted,

What is your appreciation or acceptnece as for the Maximum prudent Bullet Weight, with the fullest possible Black Podwer Charge behind it, for this Conversion to remain well kept?


Just off the Cuff, I was thinking, say, a 260 Grain Bullet for the highest weight prudence would permit, but, how much Powder would one expect to fit behind that, in the .460 S&W Csartridge Case?

50 Grains or so? 55?

Would it handle that alright do you suppose? Or, would that be a bit much for it?


I love the 230 Grain DEWC in my WALKER and other similar Bore Cap & Ball and also .45 Colt Metallic Cartridge Revolvers, and, I see no reason why a 260 Grain Bullet would not be fine with them for that matter...so, wondering along those lines of course, for this...knowing, of course, that this allows a larger Powder Charge than my regular ones do.

Hoof Hearted
March 19, 2011, 09:32 AM
Oyeboten

I had this conversation early on with Clembert.......

As we all know many things affect pressure. I chose to NOT have a throat in my chambers (as many original conversions and the Cap and Ball does not). It is my opinion that this acts as "freebore" and helps with a situation unique to open top Colt designs. The Open Top has no "gas ring" or shoulder at the front of the cylinder. This means that your headspace is a combination of cylinder gap and cartridge rim play at the rear. When the hammer strikes the primer it pushes the cylinder forward then the detonation slams the combined weight of the cylinder and the cartidges rearward, with the weight involved here this is magnified over say a Navy or Army conversion. The only real issues we have seen to date are "peening" of the breech face around the firing pin on the convertor ring. The guy who had this happen was firing about 50gr of 3f Swiss with 350gr bullets and he had chambered his cylinder to a slightly shortened version of the 460 case and had approximately .300 throats of .454 diameter.

With my setup (straightbore) I regularly shoot 250gr bullets behind 52 to 60gr of 2f goex. I have also shot Swiss but 52gr of goex with a vegetable fiber card behind the bullet burns very clean. I will tell you, though, sight regulation leaves a bit to be desired.....

ClemBert
March 19, 2011, 07:01 PM
Actually you can still shoot Cap and Ball after doing this if you procure yourself a Walker cylinder.............

I always say that just about anything is possible with enough money! ;)

ClemBert
March 19, 2011, 07:48 PM
What is your appreciation or acceptnece as for the Maximum prudent Bullet Weight, with the fullest possible Black Podwer Charge behind it, for this Conversion to remain well kept?

For your application I would consult with HH on this as you both have 2nd generation Colt Dragoons whereas mine is an Uberti Walker. With the high pressure/energy loads the metallurgy of these open tops can come into play. There are those fellas who have reproduction Walkers who have stated they've seen damage occur with 60 grain loads and a round ball. Specifically, they have observed damage to the wedge or the arbor. I seem to recall that the common denominator with these is they were ASM production....but don't quote me on that. Clearly there are some folks with reproduction firearms with softer metals than others.

I've fired several hundred .45 BPM round though my Walker. Only a few rounds were full loads with 250 grain bullets. I did it just for s**ts and giggles with no scientific merit. I have not seen any damage to any components on my Walker yet. However, I'm careful to take into consideration the powder load versus the projectile weight. As you've seen from my video my 60 grains loads are reserved for either round ball or 150 grain BigLube bullets. Until I get around to doing some serious chrony work I won't have recommendations for my application. And when that happens it will be CYA as I will not encourage folks to do what I did. This could very well be a stupid and idiotic project. Only time will tell.

I did retain about 1/3" of the cylinder throats in my cylinder. I consulted with a friend of mine who is a real live rocket scientist...he worked for the Rockwell Missile and Space Division for years designing Hellfire missiles and such. Even though I'm an engineer by trade (electronics) his background and formal education as an engineer have him in a position to understand gas seals, pressure, yada, yada, yada. With my design you have a more efficient use of the gas generated as the powder burns with less likelihood of blowback past the brass. In fact the result of all my test firings is rather impressive with no evidence of blowback whatsoever. The throats essentially become an extension of the inside diameter of the brass casing. This, versus and increased diameter beyond the brass when there are no cylinder throats. Those 1/3" throats have a smaller volume than the same area without throats. Its not a lot of volume difference but it does create a condition where there is potential for a slight pressure spike and again, more potential for blowback. Anyhoo, that is the reasoning for keeping the cylinder throats in very general terms. The one thing I learned from being an engineer for so many years is that when there is a problem to be solved there are always going to be many different solutions and many implementations.

Oyeboten
March 19, 2011, 08:31 PM
Thank you both very much for the continued elaborations and info.


Yes, I also have read several references to some of the 'ASM' Dragoons or Walkers being a little soft in some areas and or suffering wear or deterioration from too many heavy Charges.


I recall no such or similar reports regardig Colt or Uberti WALKERS or Dragoons.


My own interests do not include the use of the heaviest Charges and Bullets as a usual thing.

For plinking and fun, I prefer reduced Charges and or moderate Bullet weight also...and I intend to start using the recommended 'filler' for reduced charges to still allow the Ball or Bullet to be at the Cylinder's End in Cap & Ball, or, same I s'pose with BP Metallic Cartridge.

Some situations of course would recommend particularly heavy Bullets and full charges.



If 50 odd Grains of 'Swiss', with a 350 Grain Bullet, is something one could get away with some of the time, with SOME individual or certain Make Revolvers, than that is plenty impressive enough for me! even if we all were to agree, that not all converted WALKERS or Dragoons would handle it, and, that even with the ones which seem to handle it, over time, this might be a bit much for the Revolver-Conversion to put up with, or that it could lead to some deterioration or problems.


My own thoughts have been for 260 Grain to be my top end for Bullet Weight...with Ball and reduced Charges being the usual Plinking round.

ClemBert
March 19, 2011, 09:34 PM
If you're worried about excess pressure with the 150gr bullets over the long run...

Why not just seat a 140gr round ball into the cartridge? Swage it if you have to.

That way you have the same bullet jump as a standard cap and ball load AND the same pressures, all while allowing you to take advantage of the Kirst converters reloading speed.

OR you could just drill a cavity into the nose of your heavier bullets - make them a hollow point. That would lower the weight without having an appreciable effect of accuracy. It would be a fast and simple operation for anyone with a drill press.

I'm not following you. Maybe you missed the following picture from page 2 of this thread. There isn't a concern about 150 grain bullets. They are as close as is possible to a 141 grain round ball.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/SyberTiger/Firearms/Reloading/Bullets010.jpg

Round ball load on right....150 grain BigLube next to round ball.

Oyeboten
March 19, 2011, 10:26 PM
I am sure that Double-Ball Loads would do well also.

They do well in .45 Colt BP of course.


Triple Ball Loads might also do just fine for that matter, which while Heavy, would have a lot less Powder behind them of course.

Be fun to try...see what they do.


The Double Ball Loads I was experimenting with in .45 Colt, made one neat Hole at 30 feet, no different than the hole one Ball would do...so, apparently the second Ball was following perfectly, the 1st one with no wandering by that distance anyway.

I will have to try it sometime on farther Targets to see what goes on with 60 feet or 100 feet and so on.


The .460 Cartridge Case being longish, would allow Shot Shell or other options to be better realized than is possible with .45 Colt ( with Black Powder).

Jaymo
March 19, 2011, 11:43 PM
I loaded Speer .440 round balls into double ball loads for the .44 special back in the early 90s. Since they were larger diameter than a .44 bullet, they were sized down by the action of seating them with the die. They shot well, and made 2 holes about an inch or 2 apart at about 20 yards. I used a mild charge of 4756 (IIRC). They were fun.
You could always use a wonder wad under the first all, if you're concerned with the ball not staying in place. I believe the friction fit of of the .440 balls kept that from happening.
I'm thinking the .460 case would be good for double/triple ball and shot loads for my Taurus Judge.

I like the idea of modding a Dragoon to take a Walker cylinder. I like the look and lever latch of the Dragoons, but prefer the powder capacity of the Walker.

ClemBert
March 19, 2011, 11:58 PM
I'm thinking the .460 case would be good for double/triple ball and shot loads for my Taurus Judge.

I like the idea of modding a Dragoon to take a Walker cylinder. I like the look and lever latch of the Dragoons, but prefer the powder capacity of the Walker.

Yeah, I also gave that some thought for my Taurus Judge. Still in the thinking stages though. Probably will NOT do it.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/SyberTiger/Firearms/Taurus%20Judge/TaurusJudge033.jpg

With the personal defense 410 shotshells that Federal sell you get four 000 balls in the 2 1/2" shotshell and five 000 balls in the 3" shotshell. And NO...a Walker cylinder is too short to hold a 2 1/2" shotshell just in case any of you dingbats are trying to think ahead. :p

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/SyberTiger/Firearms/Taurus%20Judge/410ShotshellsII.jpg

As far as the loading lever latch on the Walker versus the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd model I wonder if it'd be easier and cheaper just to have a Dragoon style latch put on the Walker while its at the gunsmith having it's recoil shield cut or the conversion cylinder modified. A Dragoon with a Walker cylinder is really a Walker with a shorter barrel and a different latch. Let me be the first to dub it the Dralker or the Walgoon. :neener:

buttrap
March 20, 2011, 04:39 AM
Out of the big case and the cool factor is there any advantage of this over a .45 colt converter with smokless? I may be stupid but seems to me most the BP powder charge is going to to out the barrel as payload.

ClemBert
March 20, 2011, 05:30 PM
This has been done many times.........

Not trying to disparage Clembert in any way

Jay Strite (Raven's Roost) and I collaborated on this starting back in 2009 and Walt and I kicked the idea around for quite some time before that with the idea of a 5 shot using, first 45-70 then 444 Marlin cases. The advent of the 460 S&W just made it a breeze!

No problemo...I don't feel disparaged at all. :cool: I'll be the first to tell folks that I'm NOT the originator of the idea. It is probably safe to say that the idea was probably first kicked around in 2005 when the 460 S&W Magnum cartridge was released.

I remember having a discussion with my brother several years ago about this back when he first introduced me to the world of BP revolvers. I didn't even know what a Walker was back then and the conversation details remain fuzzy. It was probably one of those...."Wouldn't it be kewl to shoot a Walker using s 460 S&W casing filled with BP". I had a discussion with him last year about this and he said "That's what I was trying to tell you a long time ago but you thought I was crazy". I guess it never registered with me until my conversations here on THR. What can I say...I used to be a smokeless only heathen. :banghead:

As far as "talk"...an example, from October of 2007, shows a discussion where the question is asked: 460 S&W case in a walker, has anybody thought of this? (http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=41976)

Even within our own forum in The Official THR Walker Club thread you can read Pulp's comments from May of 2008:

I sure do like my R&D conversion cylinder.

Kinda a fantasy of mine, but I'd like to ream the cylinder out a bit longer so it would take .460S&W hulls. I'd guess they'll hold around 60 grains of FFg. Don't worry, even if I ever did it I'd never shoot smokeless loads through it. I may be dumb, but I'm not an idiot.

It is clear that there has been "talk" about this for quite some time.

I was looking at my notes and see that it was March 2010 (wow, it's been a year already?!) when I had a discussion with Jay Strite of Raven's Roost, now merged with Kirst Konverter concerning this project. Jay told me he wasn't aware of anyone having modified a cylinder to accept 460 S&W. In fact, he said he didn't know if it was do-able and said he'd put in an immediate call to Walt Kirst to find out if the cylinder would be able to handle a 460 S&W cartridge loaded with 60 grains of BP. When he followed up with me he said that Walt felt like the cylinder should be able to handle it without a problem. However, he said that neither him nor Walt would be involved with the work to ream out a conversion cylinder for a project such as I was attempting. Of course there are liability issues and any reasonable person could not blame them for taking that stand. I did send off my Walker to Jay to channel out the recoil shield and purchased the Kirst converter from him.

Jay had mentioned to me a Walker carbine rifle project he was working on for a customer that would use a shortened 45-70 casing as its container. I asked him why he didn't think about using a 460 S&W casing but I never really got the answer. It really didn't matter, I just thought it odd. Maybe they were looking for a larger diameter projectile to use. It's anyone's guess as to what that diameter would be as the shorter you make the 45-70 casing the larger the projectile diameter would be as the the 45-70 casing is kind of cone shaped (trapezoid). He just still might be working on that project.

As Jay Strite and Kirst didn't want to do the cylinder reaming for me I looked elsewhere. My first inclination was to call David Clements. He is very well known for his excellent work as well as unique and creative solutions in the BP world. David was unaware of anyone attempting to ream out a Walker cylinder for a 460 S&W casing. I sent off my Kirst cylinder along with detailed specs on the work to be performed to David. In fact I purchased the reamer bit for David to do the work because oddly, with all the custom work he does, he didn't have the proper reamer for this particular job. David did an excellent job. I had him re-blue the cylinder and that came out factory perfect. :D

Anyhoo, just want to get the word out that this is not an original idea of mine. There has been "talk" about this for years and years. :)

ClemBert
March 20, 2011, 05:36 PM
Out of the big case and the cool factor is there any advantage of this over a .45 colt converter with smokless? I may be stupid but seems to me most the BP powder charge is going to to out the barrel as payload.

Smokeless? Did he say smokeless...here in the temple of the Holy Black? Someone get a rope! ;)

The Walker as a cap-n-ball revolver holds up to 60 grains of BP as does the .45 BPM cartridge. One question is...If most of the BP is thrown out before combustion then what would be the reduced BP charge be for this to not occur? Maybe you could clarify why it would seem that most of the BP charge would be thrown out the barrel.

I can't answer the specifics of your question. I really have some serious chrony work to do before I'd even have a clue. Sorry. :o

Oyeboten
March 21, 2011, 01:05 AM
Hi Clembert,


Where did you get the Reamer? If you don't mind me askin'...

ClemBert
March 21, 2011, 10:38 AM
Where did you get the Reamer? If you don't mind me askin'...

Give David Clements a call for the specifics. Its a well stocked quick order supply shop in NC that David likes to use. I instructed him to tack it on his normal order then sent him a check for $28. Now you know the cost if you want to buy one....;)....or, David Clements has one now and it won't cost you a cent if he does the work for you. :)

Foto Joe
March 21, 2011, 12:02 PM
Out of the big case and the cool factor is there any advantage of this over a .45 colt converter with smokless? I may be stupid but seems to me most the BP powder charge is going to to out the barrel as payload.

The cool factor is a pretty big motivator, especially since ClemBert may not have much of anything better to do with his time and money, I should be so lucky.:)

On the other hand, in my opinion it's almost impossible to compare 45 Colt smokeless to the Black Powder version. Pushing a 235gr-255gr bullet out of the barrel with up to 40gr of powder provides a muzzle velocity that is pretty hard to beat with a smokeless round in that caliber. And you can do it with a fraction of the pressure generated by the smokeless round. The 150's that Clembert is using have got to me motorin' when they leave the barrel, I look forward to seeing if the new chronograph can withstand the muzzle blast of the BPM.:what:

ClemBert
March 21, 2011, 12:50 PM
The 150's that Clembert is using have got to me motorin' when they leave the barrel, I look forward to seeing if the new chronograph can withstand the muzzle blast of the BPM.

Even though the work had been completed on the Walker and Kirst cylinder some time ago the only thing I was putting through it was 45 Colt with 40 grains FFFg. The primary reason for delay was I was going back-n-forth on the alloy content of the 150 BigLube. When I finally went to our man, Dash, I had him make up a couple of batches of 150's with different hardness (BHN). As you know, that 150 BigLube can be considered to have rather thin and fragile bands holding that lube in. The concern is that with 60 grain loads the bands could blow out or deform such that you don't get nice even obturation. So, on the one hand you count on the bullet to obturate the hot gas but then on the other hand you don't want to blow out the bands. Ergo, consideration is given to bullet hardness to be hard enough to withstand the pressure but soft enough to obturate. I spent way too much time thinking about this. Someone should have told be to shutup and just go shoot the daggum thing. :banghead: Anyhow, the hard 150's that Dash made up for me "seem" to work great. I haven't even tried the soft ones yet.

I personally believe that repeated firing with 250 grain bullets on top of 60 grains will eventually cause wear/damage on the Walker or cylinder ring. I have no evidence of this and do not plan to test my belief. It is based purely on others accounts of damage to their Walkers with 60 grains of powder with round ball. :(

Foto Joe
March 21, 2011, 01:00 PM
The thought that 60gr of powder might be a little hard on those 150's had occurred to me also. I stil think that you need a 6,000 frame per second high speed camera to go along with the chronograph so you can actually "see" what the bullet looks like after it leaves the barrel.

Since I doubt that you're going to use this thing to hunt Alaska Brown Bears, using 250gr bullets probably wouldn't gain you any benefits other than wearing the gun and/or your hand.

rifle
March 30, 2011, 11:37 AM
We have to consider the dynamics of the converted Walker being mechanically changed. The percussion can fire 60gr. charges because the closed rear of the cylinder takes the pressure curve force and not the frame. Yes,I considered the equal opposite reaction thing. I don't imagine the cylinder hitting the frame from a short distance away in ft/lbs equals the (equal opposite reactions) CUP's of pressure inside the cylinder. The pressure builds in the barrel so the ball/bullet is out of the cylinder when the peak CUP's happen with the cylinder gap releasing some pressure.
Anywhooo.....when the gun is converted to cartridge the force of the CUP's pushes on the bullet in one direction and on the backplate/frame in the other direction(as in not on the rear of the closed percussion cylinder). Whatever the CUP's would be for a 60gr. charge it would have to 10,000 or more with FFg and even more with FFFg powder. That force would be emitted into the recoil shield of the gun that isn't made of ordanance grade steel. The guns frame isn't designed for that much force I'd guess anyway.
I believe I'd stay with the manufacturers recommendation to fire Cowboy or blackpowder equivelent in the cartridges of the Kirst Konverter unless it's been proven thru scientific problem solving the frame can handle the CUP's the max 60gr. charge would generate. That would be a stress test of the tensil strength and the sheer strength and even the compression strength of the frame behind the cartridge.
It's just a matter of realizing the max loads a percussion can fire in the Walker may be higher than what the max load in a converted percussion can handle because after the conversion the mechanics are very different. It's a different beast after the conversion. It may actually be a stronger beast after the conversion...I don't know. It would have to tested by an engineering firm that has the capabilities to find the pressure needed to fracture or break the frame to see for sure.Sorta like is done to test concrete for compression and sheer and tensil strength.
The "bullet jump" of a bullet in a cylinder throat is of no consequence when the bullet jump isn't in a tapered chamber like most of the percussion cylinders are. The bullet jump actually is synomous with "swagged smaller the deeper the ball is set in the cylinder. I think back in time the bullet jump thing in a percussion revolver got misconstrude and the tapered chambers not reqalized by a lot of people. I'm just saying that a 45 Colt cartridge in a chamber with a long throat(bullet jump) is of no real consequence in a uniform diameter chamber where the bullet is a close fit into it and the groove diameter of the barrel close to that of the chamber throat of the chamber. Therefore the long bullet jump of a bullet from a 45Colt cartridge in the Walker Konversion has no negative affect on the accuracy. In a percussion cylinder with tapered chambers a long bullet jump does affect the accuracy negatively since the ball is smaller the deeper it's seated in the chamber. Therefore why not keep the conversion a 45 Colt? Conversions weren't made back in the day for any other reason than convenience. A Walker converted back in the day would probably have been a 44Colt.

Hoof Hearted
March 30, 2011, 07:35 PM
No problemo...I don't feel disparaged at all. :cool: I'll be the first to tell folks that I'm NOT the originator of the idea. It is probably safe to say that the idea was probably first kicked around in 2005 when the 460 S&W Magnum cartridge was released.

I remember having a discussion with my brother several years ago about this back when he first introduced me to the world of BP revolvers. I didn't even know what a Walker was back then and the conversation details remain fuzzy. It was probably one of those...."Wouldn't it be kewl to shoot a Walker using s 460 S&W casing filled with BP". I had a discussion with him last year about this and he said "That's what I was trying to tell you a long time ago but you thought I was crazy". I guess it never registered with me until my conversations here on THR. What can I say...I used to be a smokeless only heathen. :banghead:

As far as "talk"...an example, from October of 2007, shows a discussion where the question is asked: 460 S&W case in a walker, has anybody thought of this? (http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=41976)

Even within our own forum in The Official THR Walker Club thread you can read Pulp's comments from May of 2008:



It is clear that there has been "talk" about this for quite some time.

I was looking at my notes and see that it was March 2010 (wow, it's been a year already?!) when I had a discussion with Jay Strite of Raven's Roost, now merged with Kirst Konverter concerning this project. Jay told me he wasn't aware of anyone having modified a cylinder to accept 460 S&W. In fact, he said he didn't know if it was do-able and said he'd put in an immediate call to Walt Kirst to find out if the cylinder would be able to handle a 460 S&W cartridge loaded with 60 grains of BP. When he followed up with me he said that Walt felt like the cylinder should be able to handle it without a problem. However, he said that neither him nor Walt would be involved with the work to ream out a conversion cylinder for a project such as I was attempting. Of course there are liability issues and any reasonable person could not blame them for taking that stand. I did send off my Walker to Jay to channel out the recoil shield and purchased the Kirst converter from him.

Jay had mentioned to me a Walker carbine rifle project he was working on for a customer that would use a shortened 45-70 casing as its container. I asked him why he didn't think about using a 460 S&W casing but I never really got the answer. It really didn't matter, I just thought it odd. Maybe they were looking for a larger diameter projectile to use. It's anyone's guess as to what that diameter would be as the shorter you make the 45-70 casing the larger the projectile diameter would be as the the 45-70 casing is kind of cone shaped (trapezoid). He just still might be working on that project.

As Jay Strite and Kirst didn't want to do the cylinder reaming for me I looked elsewhere. My first inclination was to call David Clements. He is very well known for his excellent work as well as unique and creative solutions in the BP world. David was unaware of anyone attempting to ream out a Walker cylinder for a 460 S&W casing. I sent off my Kirst cylinder along with detailed specs on the work to be performed to David. In fact I purchased the reamer bit for David to do the work because oddly, with all the custom work he does, he didn't have the proper reamer for this particular job. David did an excellent job. I had him re-blue the cylinder and that came out factory perfect. :D

Anyhoo, just want to get the word out that this is not an original idea of mine. There has been "talk" about this for years and years. :)

Just to help clarify:

The 45-70 conversion was looked at as a "parent case" only with the thought of shortening and forming to work with an inside lubed bullet of .454 diameter (think of a 44WCF looking bottleneck case) this was a thought from the Walker heir and Walt Kirst and Jay Strite both entertained it without understanding the dimensions involved as none of them were reloaders. The 444 Marlin case thoughts were solely mine as I was wanting to do a 44 Heel Base Long. This was a doable venture with very little work other than reamer grinding and will be the basis for my Remington Revolving Carbine since my thoughts here are to do something that could have been done in the era and I have a couple of long cylinders that are piloted at .375 which Walt produced for Bob Millington.. The advent or production of the 45 Colt Walker and Dragoon cylinders just made it simple to use the 460 S&W case.

There has been a lot of "pontificating" here about pressure and wear with the obvious concerns about safety or failure. The weak point in the parent revolver is the arbor/frame threads. Of course the Walker/Dragoon is very large in this area and I have not seen any issues in the 6 or so revolvers that I am aware of that have modified Kirst cylinders. The combined cylinder gap/headspace unique to the open top design does some different things when fired with heavy loads and the weight of a loaded cylinder also has effect but the only issue, so far, is peening of the "firing pin area" causing binding or sticking of the spring loaded firing pin. I speculate that the extra headspace involved is causing a brief "jump" of the primer which is then pressed back into the case when the cylinder containing the case slams back.

Both the cylinder and conversion ring, as supplied by Kirst, are tough enough for the task.

BCRider
March 31, 2011, 01:57 PM
I'm seeing a fair amount of concern over the gun giving up the ghost due to being overloaded. Frankly I don't see it being an issue. But there's always the empiracal method for analyzing the issue.

Obviously the gun didn't blow up right away. So in the short term it's able to handle the loads.

The remaining concern is then the issue of metal fatigue over the long term. There's something that can be done about that.

If the cylinder and frame are checked for measurements on a regular basis and watched for any signs of permanent growth of the cylinder diameter and frame opening this could be used as a sign that the metal is no longer working within it's purely elastic limits and that some damage is occuring which in time would lead to a failure of some form. I would suggest that the cylinder diameter be checked at points directly in line with the chambers where the walls are the thinnest as that is where any stretching would initially occur. On the frame the spacing front to rear along the top strap would also be worth watching closely. If some number of thousandth's of stretch occurs at some point then it's a sign that there is metal stretching occuring and that prudence would suggest that the loads be reduced or the gun retired at that point.

Checking of this sort would avoid the need for any sort of grand engineering being done and be something that would be easy for Clembert to do on an ongoing basis that would show quickly if there's an issue or not before it becomes a serious liability.

Dr.Rob
March 31, 2011, 02:42 PM
Best thread in BP in a long time. Absolutely fascinating.

rifle
April 1, 2011, 09:08 AM
Well,all things considered I like the idea of a nice long case in the Walker conversion. That would allow the Walker converted to be what it's always been and that's a black powder magnum.
I'd be interested in using the long case for birdshot and smokeless at Cowboy levels and do a little hunting with it. As long as I could safely get the birdshot to penetrate a tin can at least 15 yards.
I'd takke one of my "bad rifling" Walker barrels out of the parts bin and ream the lands out and get a screw in full choke in the muzzle.
Anywhoooo.....I hope the tests show the Walker can handle the "almost 45/70" type load of 60gr. blackpowder. That would push a 250gr. bullet about 1,400fps I'd guess. That puts the blackpowder 45bpm in a class with 44mag. That's enlightening. Probably with about 10,000CUP's. That's agin to a 45/70 that pushes a 500gr. bullet a little over 1,000fps with 12,000CUP's using 60gr. FFg Goex powder.
I think it's only natural for Percussion Revolver Shooters to recognize the .460 case as the exact case people have wanted to make for a Walker conversion for a long time.
I have a converted Walker using the original cylinder and chambered in 44 Special. The barrel being sleeved with a 44 revolver liner for the correct demensions there. I figure it'll hold up since Walkers converted with the original cylinders with paper thin cylinder notches in 45 have been fired and held(miraculously). In 44 the thickness of the bottom of the cylinder notches should hold up with blackpowder. All I have to do is re-make the conversion plate a gunsmith made that fits horribly. The barrel re-sleeve and the cylinder are alright. The cylinder naturally has over large 44 cylinder throats though. It actually would be better to have the barrel re-sleeved to 45 size and use the 44 special case and a heeled bullet like in the old days. Some Walkers depending on their lannd and groove diameter could possibly use a 44 special case with a heeled bullet and the original barrel without being sleeved to revolver 45 size.
Knowing the original cylinder could be used for 44 Colt(especially) or 44 special makes for an interesting scenario. I don't see anything wrong with a Walker being converted to 44 Colt blackpowder since the 44Colt was the cartridge that would have been available back in the day. That's puny for the Walker but would allow for it's use in Cowboy competition I'd guess.
The Walker in 44Special would be fun too.
Anywhoooo....if I got up off my old butt and fixed a Konverter into a Walker I'd be wanting to try some Fg and FFg powder in it.
If I got off this puter and off my old butt and fixed that converted Walker (messed up by a supposed pro-gunsmith) I have I'd be shooting some 44Special blackpowder only out of it. Maybe-just maybe test some smokeless Cowboy ammo in it(bad idea though). Like tie it to an old tire and get behind a tree and pull the trigger with a string. It would be interesting to see if an original cylinder off a Walker would handle low pressured smokeless cartridges.
I know there are more than a few that fire smokeless from "converted with the original cylinder 1851Navy Colts in 38 Colt and 38special".
I saw on the net at "Hobby Gunsmith" an article about a Dragoon converted with the original cylinder to fire 45 Colts with blackpowder and round balls and it didn't blow the cylinder notches. How it didn't I have no clue since the notch bottoms had to be almost thin enough to see thru.

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