.308 assault rifle


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jjwdb7
October 11, 2010, 11:34 PM
what are some good brands of assault rifles that shoot .308? i'm familiar with knight's armament, dpms, and armalite, but not too much else.

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briansmithwins
October 11, 2010, 11:40 PM
Technically, a rifle chambered in 7.62 NATO can't be an assault rifle as part of the definition of an assault rifle is that it fires a intermediate cartridge.

The FN FAL and G3 are considered good brands, but a transferable full auto is going to be $20k or more.

BSW

Ragnar Danneskjold
October 11, 2010, 11:45 PM
Are there even any Knight's Armament assault rifles on the transferable database?

PT1911
October 11, 2010, 11:47 PM
I went with the PTR-91

Zanad
October 11, 2010, 11:57 PM
so what are you exactly looking for? its hard to suggest what to get when we have nothing one your biases.


I LOVE the M1a, the full auto version is the m14 and those run more than a new car.


as to the AR-10 style, NO, they were not made(that I know of) in automatic version that us "comoners" can have without alot of red tape and are only transferable as post dealer samples.

jjwdb7
October 11, 2010, 11:59 PM
ok, let me re-phrase the question. i know that armalite makes the ar10 that shoots 7.62 nato (or .308, i'm not getting technical here). what are some other brands that make rifles similar to the ar10? i'm not too impressed with what i've read about armalite. so far the best seems to be knight's armament sr-25. i just can't find a ton out. so i thought i would ask. again, sorry to ask such a dumb question.

cbrgator
October 12, 2010, 12:02 AM
FN SCAR 17 is a latest and greatest.

W.E.G.
October 12, 2010, 12:07 AM
There is really only one "true" assault rifle.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/rifle%20pics/STG-44/stg-44.jpg

HOOfan_1
October 12, 2010, 12:20 AM
how the heck did they get a STG-44?

Where do they get ammo?

edit:
nevermind...they even sell the ammo on midway

rozziboy18
October 12, 2010, 12:29 AM
if you want a ebr, gab up one of the dpms's in 308. very acurate and good customer service!

12131
October 12, 2010, 12:32 AM
POF 308 and LMT 308 MWS

JShirley
October 12, 2010, 02:49 AM
As I understand the question, you're interested in military-style .308 semi-auto rifles. You might also consider the Saiga and FN-FAL type. DSA makes high quality FAL-type rifles. The M1A is also a fine rifle if you like iron sights.

TonyAngel
October 12, 2010, 03:30 AM
Assault rifle? What's that?

coloradokevin
October 12, 2010, 04:27 AM
A WORD REGARDING "ASSAULT" RIFLES:


jjwdb7,

As you may have gathered from the posts thus far, the term "Assault Rifle" isn't very popular around here. The problem with the terminology is simply that it leaves people believing that the sole purpose of a certain type of rifle is to wage a war, attack people, or engage in some other sort of armed conflict.

That purpose couldn't be further from the truth for most of the firearms that have been given this label. Simply put, they aren't being used to "assault" anything, and we don't want people who aren't familiar with firearms to associate semi-automatic (autoloading) guns with weapons of war. Most often these firearms are only used for lawful hunting, target shooting, competitive shooting, plinking, or home defense.

To take this issue a step further, similar looking military issued small arms are often built to be "selective fire" (fully automatic / burst). These types of firearms are quite different from the rifles that you or I are buying over-the-counter at the local sporting goods store.

In recent decades the term "Assault Rifle" has become very popular within the somewhat powerful anti-gun lobby, and it probably isn't wise to perpetuate such a misleading term among those of us who do engage in shooting-related activities. Simply put, using this terminology adds fuel to the argument that this lobby is trying to sell, by giving them an opportunity to identify these firearms as devices that were designed solely for the purpose of "assaulting" someone.

Common sense tells us that virtually any item can be used to assault another person, but we certainly don't want to give the general public the impression that our firearms are going to be used for such illicit purposes, or that these guns will allow us to dominate the neighborhood streets with machinegun fire (such an idea may sound ridiculous to you, but the anti-gun lobby has certainly tried to "sell" these fears in the past).



Anyway, more to the point of your question regarding semi-automatic .308 Win rifles:

I really like the Springfield Armory M1A style rifle. These were roughly modeled after the old M-14 rifles, and they are known for being very accurate. They look quite nice in a walnut stock configuration, and are plenty functional with the synthetic stocks. They aren't cheap, but they shoot great.

The AR-10 platform is also popular, though there isn't much to say about these (it is basically an AR-15 built to chamber the .308 Win).

Ragnar Danneskjold
October 12, 2010, 04:48 AM
Lewis Machine Tools makes some amazing rifles if you're willing to spend the money.

GunTech
October 12, 2010, 07:42 AM
Having owned a Knights I can tell you that if you aren't a government agency, their customer service sucks. Mind you, this was a couple of years ago and they may be better now, but after the issues I had getting a problem with my SR-25 fixed, I will never buy anything from KAC.

I've also owned an AR-10T which was a great rifle. I wish Armalite didn't use proprietary magazines, since MagPul is now making a mag for the Mk11 and M110 rifles as well as just about every other 308 AR except the AR-10.

In 308 the most popular battle rifles seem to be the M14 clones (SA M1A, Fulton, etc), FAL, AR-10 types and HK G3 clones.

Tirod
October 12, 2010, 08:37 AM
You actually won't find many .308 designs. The window of use was from about 1958 to 1978. They had a short life. Most of the reason was due to the cartridge itself, which is more than adequate for military use - in fact, it's too powerful.

The basic research that led up to the first assault rifle showed soldiers simply did not shoot larger calibers as much, and would not use the range. It also showed that more bullets flying on the battlefield meant more casualties - which seems a no brainer. So, equipped with facts, designers went to intermediate cartridges that matched the ranges humans would actually attempt a shot, and gave them more ammo to do it, along with full auto.

"Battle rifles" were the first attempt to merge the new thinking with the old, and it doesn't work. They still try to use the heavier cartridges, while attempting better ergonomics and dealing with magazines. It helped some, but soldiers were no more prone to shoot them more or further any more than the older bolt actions. It just took less effort.

SOME of us refuse to quit using the term assault rifle. What we do is use it correctly - as a reference to full auto weapons designed for military use, and issued as such. There certainly are assault rifles - the one pictured is the grand daddy of them all, and the literal translation of it's name is assault rifle. It's also on the market in semi auto form as a reproduction for the WWII reenactor crowd, and doing ok. But as a semi auto, it is most emphatically not an assault rifle, and that is where the ignorant are completely wrong.

GunTech
October 12, 2010, 08:59 AM
Believe it or not, Hornady is loading 7.92x33. About $1 per round.

a-sheepdog
October 12, 2010, 09:03 AM
Take a look at Rock River Arms LAR-8, uses FAL magazines, which can still be had for a reasonable price...at least for now.

ny32182
October 12, 2010, 09:32 AM
As you may have gathered from the posts thus far, the term "Assault Rifle" isn't very popular around here. The problem with the terminology is simply that it leaves people believing that the sole purpose of a certain type of rifle is to wage a war, attack people, or engage in some other sort of armed conflict.

I don't like anti gunners any more than the next guy, but all modern firearm actions (lever, bolt, autoloading/closed bolt, autoloading/open bolt, etc...) were originally invented to allow soldiers to shoot people faster than they could with a muzzle loading weapon; this is just a fact.

That purpose couldn't be further from the truth for most of the firearms that have been given this label. Simply put, they aren't being used to "assault" anything, and we don't want people who aren't familiar with firearms to associate semi-automatic (autoloading) guns with weapons of war. Most often these firearms are only used for lawful hunting, target shooting, competitive shooting, plinking, or home defense.

Of course there are many other uses, but denying the original intent of the design is not academically honest. Stoner didn't have Bambi on his mind when he invented the AR10/15.

To take this issue a step further, similar looking military issued small arms are often built to be "selective fire" (fully automatic / burst). These types of firearms are quite different from the rifles that you or I are buying over-the-counter at the local sporting goods store.

If you consider less than a handful of small trigger parts to constitute "quite different", I guess that is a subjective call... I wouldn't. I also think that if we pole our military members, we'll find that the burst/auto function of M16 derivatives is barely even used in a military application. So, if the rifle I have can do 99% of the same job yours can... those aren't really quite different.

In recent decades the term "Assault Rifle" has become very popular within the somewhat powerful anti-gun lobby, and it probably isn't wise to perpetuate such a misleading term among those of us who do engage in shooting-related activities. Simply put, using this terminology adds fuel to the argument that this lobby is trying to sell, by giving them an opportunity to identify these firearms as devices that were designed solely for the purpose of "assaulting" someone.

I've never seen a gun forum without a strong contingent of people who take zombie movies a little too seriously and seem to make a full time sport out of camping out waiting for the end of the world with their AR and 10k rounds of ammo at the ready.

I can appreciate not pushing anti agenda, but when we go too far in the other direction we are doing the same thing: making the 2A about sporting goods, which is also something the antis would like to do. My guns are sporting goods today. That doesn't mean they will ALWAYS be so. The 2nd amendment isn't about sporting goods.

Mags
October 12, 2010, 09:34 AM
FAL magazines, which can still be had for a reasonable price... Where? G3 mags are the cheapest now sometimes CTD has them for 99 cents. Someone makes an AR 10 styled lower that uses G3 mags, I can't remember who though.

Mags
October 12, 2010, 10:12 AM
but when we go too far in the other direction we are doing the same thing I think you went to far the other way and didn't meet in the middle. Your posts makes it sound like the full auto M16 and an AR15 are the exact same thing. You are wrong.

HGUNHNTR
October 12, 2010, 10:20 AM
Of course there are many other uses, but denying the original intent of the design is not academically honest. Stoner didn't have Bambi on his mind when he invented the AR10/15.



Correct me if I am wrong, but our forefathers didn't have Bambi on their mind when drafting the Second Amendment either. The terminology does matter. Assault is different than defense.
This is a valid concern for gun rights advocates, as we are constantly under attack from anti gun groups that use emotional based wording to describe firearms with the aim of producing an emotionalistic response in voters.
If you enjoy your rights you must be equally as vigilant in not spreading their own anti-firearm marketing terminology.

Have you ever seen abortion proponents use the term Pro-Death, or those against it use the term Anti-Choice? It matters, and in the case of firearms, even more because it is blatantly incorrect.

ny32182
October 12, 2010, 10:21 AM
My post means what it says: They are similar in terms of everything but some trigger parts, and those parts have very little real world impact on how effectively the rifle can be applied to 99% of tasks at hand.

Col. Plink
October 12, 2010, 10:23 AM
Saiga 308 Version 21 has a nice thumbhole hogsback stock and can be very accurate (around 6 bills on mississippiautoarms.com)

Quiet
October 12, 2010, 10:32 AM
Top three over $2000...
#1) LMT MWS-308
#2) FN SCAR-17S
#3) KAC SR-25

Top two under $1000...
#1) Izhmash Saiga-308 (converted)
#2) Izhmash Saiga-308 (unconverted)

Sock Puppet
October 12, 2010, 10:34 AM
The FN FNAR is also worth looking at.

Rugby8
October 12, 2010, 12:04 PM
Yut

Hatterasguy
October 12, 2010, 12:22 PM
LWRC Repr is pretty nice if you want an AR, as is the LMT whatever they call it.

I'm waiting for the Scar 17, cause it will go well with my FN49.

The most significant battle rifle of the 20th century is probably the FAL, everyone used it for a long time. Can't go wrong with a DSA Fal.

DoubleTapDrew
October 12, 2010, 12:34 PM
FAL magazines, which can still be had for a reasonable price...

Where? G3 mags are the cheapest now sometimes CTD has them for 99 cents. Someone makes an AR 10 styled lower that uses G3 mags, I can't remember who though.
It depends on your definition of reasonable, but they can be had for under $20 each. Not the $5 they used to be but not terrible like the $40-$50ea some AR designs and the Saiga 308 use. I agree that the G3 are king of the hill when it comes to cheap 7.62 mags.

HGUNHNTR
October 12, 2010, 02:08 PM
One of my favorites is the HK 417:

HA! And I love Unicorn steaks!

seasmoke
October 12, 2010, 08:26 PM
My kinda Lady...Purty with a STG-44:D

But dang, is that a ring I see on her finger:banghead:

And is that my Hakim behind you?

taliv
October 12, 2010, 09:47 PM
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8135/sr25a.jpg
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6728/mk11mod0b.jpg

not fantastic photography, but a couple great older-style SR-25s (the lower one is a Mk11mod0).

I shot the top one for the first time in about 6 months this past Sunday. First round hit on a 8" flash target at 500 yrds with M118LR. gotta love it.

The old KAC guns were light-years better than anything else at that time, and the new ones still appear to be a good bit better than most, though the SCAR heavy seems to be giving them a run for their money. They have a ton of innovative features on the new EM line.

KAC's service, mentioned above, is a bit different. It's not exactly bad service; i mean, they're not going to cuss you or not answer the phone or have billing errors, etc. But you should set your expectations that most any interaction you have with them will be a minimum of 6 months. And spare parts are unbelievably expensive.

The LMT and LWRC mentioned above are both fairly well regarded, though the LWRC has had a lot of issues reported, particularly around their magazines. (do a google search and you'll see plenty of comments and some youtube videos of failures.)

Larue supposedly makes a great one too, though I haven't seen one.

And noveske was making a 308 for a while. don't know if they still are.

And I hear les baer is making a 308 AR platform rifle now. Though I haven't seen it yet either, like most of his stuff, I would expect it to sacrifice reliability for accuracy

TexasPatriot.308
October 12, 2010, 09:58 PM
Rock River Arms low end but reliable, Armalite medium price, then you get into the high dollar stuff if you can afford it...

Boomie
October 13, 2010, 08:50 AM
Don't flame if I get this wrong (I haven't had my coffee yet and I'm going off memory), but it kind of breaks up like this;

AR-10 like DI .308s
Armalite AR-10, Rock River LAR-8, Knights SR-25, DPMS LR-308, etc.

G3 delayed roller lock family
HK91, PTR-91, CETME + assorted clones

FN FAL and clones.

M1 Garand in all its forms

SCAR Heavy

Kel-Tec RFB

Saiga .308 (not sure of full name, this is the AK-47 in .308)

FN FNAR (does this count here?)

HK 417 (don't think you can buy that one)

Tirod
October 13, 2010, 12:48 PM
Hk's were a steal in the day - $160. They can't be had new at all now. Same for FAL,s etc. Because no army wants them. There's a reason for that. In a few short years they will make the C&R list, which is a shame, as they are so overpriced.

They are a passing genre, some will always love them. They are a short lived phenomenon in military history. Lever actions have lasted a hundred years longer, and are still being made.

Sky
October 13, 2010, 01:13 PM
I think based on my conversation with Del-Ton they are working on a .308 caliber presently. Dunno when it will be for sale or anything else other than they are working on one. Could be interesting?

jeepguy
October 13, 2010, 08:24 PM
i have an m1a & am very pleased with it & it truely is a great rifle. if i didn't have an m1a i would have either a fal or the wood stocked saiga mentioned earlier in this post.

JShirley
October 15, 2010, 01:22 AM
Assault rifles are selective fire (semi and burst or FA) and shoot an intermediate cartridges (such as 5.56x45mm or 7.62x39mm). No .308, even if fully automatic, is an assault rifle.

Assault weapon is a meaningless term concocted to vilify weapons where were NOT assault rifles, but that possessed features certain politicians found distasteful, such as pistol grips, detachable magazines, barrel shrouds, and flash hiders.

oscarcat
November 13, 2010, 06:39 PM
I currently own a RRA 16" LAR-8 with a leupold 1.5x4 scope and a Springfield loaded M1A. Love them both. Being preferential to the AR platform I would give my nod to the LAR. But it's like comparing old school to new school.

G27RR
November 13, 2010, 07:59 PM
The only real points against the Armalite seem to be the cost of magazines. Okayh, sure they are't cheap but they are reasonable if you buy the 5 packs from Armalite's website. They come out to $20 each, which isn't much more than a pmag and they are of very sturdy construction.

I think the Armalite is one of the better values in .308 AR pattern rifles, so that's what I bought. Having said that, I would've bought a LaRue OBR in 7.62mm if I had the $. I have the OBR in 5.56mm and the build quality and accuracy are outstanding.

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n634/G27RR/ArmaliteAR-10.jpg

The FN FNAR is nicely constructed and accurate, too, but it's mags are really $$$ and the rifle itself is a little overpriced to me. If

jpwilly
November 13, 2010, 08:14 PM
Top three over $2000...
#1) LMT MWS-308
#2) FN SCAR-17S
#3) KAC SR-25

Top three under $1000...
#1) DPMS LR-308
#2) Izhmash Saiga-308 (converted)
#3) Izhmash Saiga-308 (unconverted)

Fixed it for ya...you can thank me later! :neener:

skipbo32
December 18, 2010, 05:07 AM
get an M1A. it is a really fun gun!

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC03995.jpg

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC03991.jpg

fragout
December 18, 2010, 06:31 AM
If your looking for a 7.62x51mm chambered semiautomatic rifle that is reliable, durable, accurate, user friendly, well balanced, point and shoot, and can be used easily/quickly with either hand...... the M14/M1A is the one you should look at closely when you start your eventual "hands on" comparisons to the others mentioned here.

There is more out there now than the Springfield Armory INC. M1A rifles to choose from now as well.

www.lrbarms.com
www.fultonarmory.com
www.762mmfirearms.com
www.jamesriverarmory.com
www.smithenterprise.com

Thats a total of 6 current makers of the M14 types, plus the Norinco/Polytech M14S rifles still out there.

Current production USGI (CMI) 20rd magazines run at 20-25 a pop.

A wide range of optics mounts, stock variations, etc to look at now.

I have tried on all the others on for size in the past, but ended up keeping this one, as it simply has more going for it than the rest, and offers me more options in a 7.62x51mm semiauto rifle, then any of the other types did.

One example: The M14/M1A can be fired left handed without having to move the left hand from the grip during a mag swap. If you add an extended bolt stop in place of the std one, the same can be done if shooting right handed.

Another example: More options when it comes to stocks. The traditional, or various pistol grip types.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r178/fragout2000/SANY1256.jpg
I prefer the K.I.S.S. route myself.:)

SKIPBO32: Is that an Ultimak M8 handgaurd rail on your M1A? what type of optic and ring is that pictured on it, and does it co-witness with your iron sights? Nice lookin rifle BTW...;)

skipbo32
December 18, 2010, 11:53 AM
hey fragout: it is an ultimak and it does co witness. it is an aimpoint comp ml3 on a low aimpoint ring. co witness is nice cuz you can always check to see if you are holding zero.

i dig your guns. i believe we have talked before. i am Charlene32 on TFL m14 forum.

skipbo32
December 18, 2010, 11:56 AM
fragout:

out of the six makers you mentioned, how would you rank them?

bryank30
December 18, 2010, 01:07 PM
M1A. They make great scope mounts for them. The ARMS 18 is one of the best.
You also will get more attention at the range with one, they are truly beautiful rifles.

happygeek
December 18, 2010, 02:20 PM
My "assault rifle" next to my rifle that may have very well actually assaulted something or someone.

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x297/fdhs_runner/Firearms/imgp0399.jpg

Seriously though, more people are murdered using no weapon at all than are murdered by rifles of any type (bolt action, lever action, semi-auto, muzzle loading single shot, etc.). More people are murdered with blunt objects than with rifles. Just over 5 times as many people are stabbed to death than murdered with rifles. (Source: http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_08.html)

Incidentally, you'll also notice that murders with rifles have dropped slightly over the last 2 years, during the massive buy up of evil black rifles. I can understand how the unknowing might call for restrictions on handguns, they are the leading homicide weapon after all, but rifles :confused:

I love that M1A but can't afford to shoot it all that much. It came with a tag on the trigger guard that said "not legal for sale in CA". Apparently in CA you're not allowed to have a detachable magazine and a flash suppressor, even if it's a rifle with a 22 inch barrel, conventional wood stock, measuring 44 inches overall, firing a full size rifle cartridge, and weighing something like 11 pounds.

The rifle is far more accurate than I am, fun to shoot, and I like the retro late 50s look.

fragout
December 18, 2010, 04:08 PM
Skipbo32: I believe that we have spoken before over at the firing line.

I can only rate the M14 makers that I have fired before, although I hear great things about the SEI,James River Armory, and 7.62mm M14 builds.

1. LRB ARMS M14SA and their M25. ( My next rifle is an M14SA Tanker)

2. Fulton Armory. My oldest girl has one, and this one was built back when FA was using Armscorp to produce their receivers. Hers is a 22in bbl "M21 build".

3. SAI. My clan has a few, and all different models. My favorite is the older M1A-A1 Bush rifle.

Note: I also like the Norinco/Polytech M14S rifles. ( The rifle with the older model ARMS#18 split rail mount is a Norinco M14S, built into a Tanker.)
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r178/fragout2000/SANY1252.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r178/fragout2000/SANY1245.jpg

Note: Armscorp, Federal Ordinance, and Enterprise Arms also built M14 types in the past as well, so a few may be out there for the getting.

A few questions for you Skipbo32.......
Can you tell me more about your Ultimak rail? how much weight does it add in comparison with a std handguard, and does it have any "front heavy feel" to it as compared to said HG? ( IE..... Is the overall balance of the rifle shifted forward any, or is there hardly any change to your rifle's overall balance?)

I hope that my questions make sense.

Justin
December 18, 2010, 06:50 PM
I don't like anti gunners any more than the next guy, but all modern firearm actions (lever, bolt, autoloading/closed bolt, autoloading/open bolt, etc...) were originally invented to allow soldiers to shoot people faster than they could with a muzzle loading weapon; this is just a fact.

So what? Does some sort of "original intention" on the part of a designer or engineer mean that other uses for a particular piece of technology are somehow not legitimate?

Why should the law give more credence to one application for a piece of technology over that of others, especially if the vast majority (greater than 99%) of the people using that technology are doing so in a peaceful manner?

Of course there are many other uses, but denying the original intent of the design is not academically honest. Stoner didn't have Bambi on his mind when he invented the AR10/15.

Again, who cares what some supposed "original intent" is if citizens are not using these rifles for nefarious purposes?

Are those people who choose to use these firearms for other various applications somehow wrong?

If the supposedly "original intention" of a firearm is for killing people, then the implication would seem to be that any person who chooses to buy a firearm either intends to kill others with it, or to misuse it for an application for which it is not actually intended.

If you consider less than a handful of small trigger parts to constitute "quite different", I guess that is a subjective call... I wouldn't

While the mechanical differences may be small, the function of a full-auto firearm vs. a semi-auto one is considered drastic enough that law makers draw a bright, clear line of differentiation. Whether you believe the mechanical differences to be drastic or not is immaterial, as claiming that it's not that big of a difference clearly goes against written law.

I also think that if we pole our military members, we'll find that the burst/auto function of M16 derivatives is barely even used in a military application. So, if the rifle I have can do 99% of the same job yours can... those aren't really quite different.

Again, so what?

By what reasoning is it the least bit rational to declare that a soldier's use of semi-auto fire on a battlefield is somehow more correct than, say, a High Power competitor shooting a rapid fire sitting string or a 3gun competitor shooting a course of fire, or a man simply taking his rifle out to plink at cans on an idle Sunday afternoon? Certainly some of these circumstances are more dire than others, but how does that reflect on the legitimacy under which these firearms are used?

Hatterasguy
December 18, 2010, 10:20 PM
The Scar 17.

cracked junior
December 19, 2010, 10:43 AM
im thinking about a winchester sx-ar 308 my self. pretty much a copy fn scar 308.

uses same magazines. the mags are the down fall of it though. 3 20 round mags on gun broker go for 280 dollars.

Mags
December 19, 2010, 10:53 AM
I think you mean copy of FN AR.

Acera
December 19, 2010, 01:26 PM
I LOVE the M1a, the full auto version is the m14 and those run more than a new car.

Yeah, but not a decent new car:neener:


If you want the NFA controlled full auto rifles chambered in the 7.62mmx51 NATO round, they can be found for less than many think.


I've seen BM-59s for less than $9K recently.

A M-14 clone can be had in the $12-13K range, with a true M-14 +/- $7K more.

G-3's around $15K.

And what would be my choice, the trusty FAL for <$14K.



While expensive, but still considerably less than the vehicles that most of us drive from a dealer cost.



Good Luck.

cracked junior
December 20, 2010, 10:37 AM
Mags, you are correct.

goon
December 20, 2010, 12:59 PM
I think you went to far the other way and didn't meet in the middle. Your posts makes it sound like the full auto M16 and an AR15 are the exact same thing. You are wrong.

The thing is, he is kind of right. There isn't that much difference. When I was in the Army I only used the burst on my M-16A2 a few times. I really think that if they'd issued me an AR-15 instead, it wouldn't have really made the slightest difference in terms of my capabilities. As it was, I could still (and can still) run a rifle in semi-auto fast enough that people mistake it for FA fire.

For .308 rifles, I like the FAL, but it's not an "assault rifle" per se (as has previously been noted). It's also not a precision rifle. Some I've owned were very accurate, others were adequately so, but there are better choices if accuracy is what you really want. One thing you do need to consider if you're getting into .308 rifles is the cost of ammuntion. Feeding them isn't cheap. If you can afford the rifle but not the ammo, maybe you should choose a different rifle. Just a thought.

As for the term, I don't find it offensive. I believe that if you are trying to break into someone's home with the intention of harming them, you open yourself up to being assaulted. You try to rape a single mom and get cut in half by rapid fire from an AK? I'd say you got what you had coming. And if you're invading my shores (not likely, but still...), you also deserve to be assaulted with rifle fire. The issue isn't with the words, it's with the assumption that there is never a time when violence is acceptable. That mistaken belief is what we need to combat more than anything else.

But some have taken to using the term HDR (Homeland Defense Rifles) to denote a semi-auto military style rifle kept with the intention of having an effective defensive tool to use in times of crisis.

kayak-man
December 20, 2010, 01:33 PM
Believe it or not, Hornady is loading 7.92x33. About $1 per round.
Is this actually a round, or did you mean 7.62x39 or 51? Actually, I kind of like the idea of a slightly wider, but shorter round.

I can see where everyone that does not like the term "Assault Rifle" is coming from. At the same time though, its kind of helpful to have a distinction between "EBRs/Assault Rifles" and other semi-automatic firearms. Personally, I don't see it as meaning that we intend to assault someone with the rifle, but rather, that it is the semi-auto version of the military firearm. If theres another word or phrase that can be, I'm all for it, but until then, I will continue to use the phrase EBR to refer to my Saiga.

To the OP, (Now that I have stepped down off my soapbox :D ) I have heard good things about the Saiga .308. I'm not sure about manufactures, but if you check out Atlantic Firearms, they have a section for 308 rifles.

I'm in the market (except that I'm broke, and an M1 Garand is next on the list) for a FAL myself, and I've heard some pretty good things about "The Right Arm of the Free World." If you decide to go that route, you might want to go on over to the FAL Files website - they have a buy/sell area where you sometimes have a shot at a pretty good deal.

Hope this was helpful,

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

Arkansas Paul
December 20, 2010, 02:23 PM
The Remington R-25 is an AR platform rifle that is available in .308 Win. I love em. I would like to have one in 7mm-08 myself. I think it would be a dandy.

BrocLuno
December 20, 2010, 02:52 PM
I don't like to assault rifles. It makes them unhappy :(

I prefer to take them out to play or work on them in my shop which usually makes both of us happier :)

Feeding a 308 is a bit much. But on semi and with a reason to pull the T, it's not unbearable. Spraying .30 lead is costly, no matter what gun it's coming from, at least with accurate ammo.

Darthbauer
December 20, 2010, 05:42 PM
If I had the money I'd get the LWRC REPR.

Samari Jack
December 26, 2010, 05:28 PM
A WORD REGARDING "ASSAULT" RIFLES:


jjwdb7,

As you may have gathered from the posts thus far, the term "Assault Rifle" isn't very popular around here. The problem with the terminology is simply that it leaves people believing that the sole purpose of a certain type of rifle is to wage a war, attack people, or engage in some other sort of armed conflict.

That purpose couldn't be further from the truth for most of the firearms that have been given this label. Simply put, they aren't being used to "assault" anything, and we don't want people who aren't familiar with firearms to associate semi-automatic (autoloading) guns with weapons of war. Most often these firearms are only used for lawful hunting, target shooting, competitive shooting, plinking, or home defense.

To take this issue a step further, similar looking military issued small arms are often built to be "selective fire" (fully automatic / burst). These types of firearms are quite different from the rifles that you or I are buying over-the-counter at the local sporting goods store.

In recent decades the term "Assault Rifle" has become very popular within the somewhat powerful anti-gun lobby, and it probably isn't wise to perpetuate such a misleading term among those of us who do engage in shooting-related activities. Simply put, using this terminology adds fuel to the argument that this lobby is trying to sell, by giving them an opportunity to identify these firearms as devices that were designed solely for the purpose of "assaulting" someone.

Common sense tells us that virtually any item can be used to assault another person, but we certainly don't want to give the general public the impression that our firearms are going to be used for such illicit purposes, or that these guns will allow us to dominate the neighborhood streets with machinegun fire (such an idea may sound ridiculous to you, but the anti-gun lobby has certainly tried to "sell" these fears in the past).



Anyway, more to the point of your question regarding semi-automatic .308 Win rifles:

I really like the Springfield Armory M1A style rifle. These were roughly modeled after the old M-14 rifles, and they are known for being very accurate. They look quite nice in a walnut stock configuration, and are plenty functional with the synthetic stocks. They aren't cheap, but they shoot great.

The AR-10 platform is also popular, though there isn't much to say about these (it is basically an AR-15 built to chamber the .308 Win).
I was hoping someone other than me cringed a bit. The term "Assault Rifle" is a political term created by California ant-gun legislation to ban semi-automatic rifles in the 1980s. The AR in AR-15 really stands for Armalite rifle, after the company that developed it in the 1950s.

Politicians love sound bites, especially scary ones that are not factual.

Samari Jack
December 26, 2010, 05:41 PM
Sorry about the thread hijack, but just one more and then I'll shut-up. Since the early 19th century, civilian sporting rifles have evolved from their military predecessors. The arms of today's sporting rifles just follows the same. Accurate, dependable and all weather.

HorseSoldier
December 26, 2010, 06:51 PM
The term "Assault Rifle" is a political term created by California ant-gun legislation to ban semi-automatic rifles in the 1980s.

"Assault Rifle" is a term coined by Hitler (German Sturmgewehr) and subsequently adopted in the English speaking world to describe the sort of weapon the StG-44 was -- intermediate cartridge, select fire, military weapon.

You may be thinking of "assault weapon," which does seem to be a term of political convenience to lump military style rifles in with whatever else is not the politically correct flavor of the day.

Believe it or not, Hornady is loading 7.92x33. About $1 per round.

Is this actually a round, or did you mean 7.62x39 or 51? Actually, I kind of like the idea of a slightly wider, but shorter round.


7.92x33 is the cartridge used in the WW2 German StG-44. Ballistically it's inferior to more modern stuff and was only ever used in that weapon (+/- some early prototypes of the FAL), but it'd still get the job done even today. And shot through a kind of heavy StG-44 with its relatively modest automatic ROF it's actually very controllable and fun to shoot (except the thing has metal handguards and gets real damn hot on auto real fast).

ColbyA
January 1, 2011, 08:07 PM
I just bought the AR-10 w/piston, so far love it but the other day i bought an collapsable stock with and a shorty recoil arrestor, so do u still have to use a AR-10 buffer tube and spring or do u use the AR-15 tube and spring

withdrawn34
January 1, 2011, 08:15 PM
Are you referring to an assault rifle or a military-style semi automatic rifle?

ColbyA
January 1, 2011, 09:29 PM
its a Armalite AR-10A4 7.62, semi auto, im guessing the military version is fully auto?

madcratebuilder
January 2, 2011, 05:33 AM
read this FAQ

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=62&t=378850

Wolfgang2000
January 2, 2011, 04:21 PM
I really like my FAL carbine. But I would love to try the Kel-Tec RFB!

Hatterasguy
January 2, 2011, 07:26 PM
Technically its not a (Sturmgewehr) assault rifle if it isn't full auto. The whole reason they cut the round down was so it was controllable when used this way, and so the soldiers could carry more of them.


Hitler envisioned SS supermen overrunning and "assaulting" Russian positions with these "Wunderwaffe", saving the Third Reich from the Untermensch. They planned to replace the K98 with the STG44 but the war ended before this was possible, and do to infighting at the higher levels most of the STG44's that were made sat out the war in crates. But the Germans knew which way the wind was blowing in regards to infantry small arms and were already making the switch. The STG44's would allow the infantry to lay down a wall of fire to support the movement of the MG42 forward, sub guns would be phased out and probably use by police and occupation forces, and K98's would be relegated to snipers.

The Germans were so far ahead they even developed and fielded the first inferred NV sights on them, called the vampir.

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/vampir.jpg

Essentially the 1944 equivalent of an M4 with a NV Acog on it.:D Remember we were fielding the Garand when they were starting to field that.:eek:

Mot45acp
January 2, 2011, 08:01 PM
i'm not too impressed with what i've read about armalite.

Which was? Lack of negative reports is what led me to my choice to go with Armalite. I'm not doubting you, just wondering what I missed.

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