Speer GD Short Barrel 9mm 124gr +P


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The_Shootist
October 12, 2010, 11:03 PM
The same brand has a good rep in .38/.357 so I guess this is aimed at the compact 9mm crowd (Kahr...etc?).

So I saw a bunch of boxes at Gander Mtn of the 9mm short barrelled version. Now currently I'm carrying the non-bonded version of the Golden Sabre 124 +P round for CHL duty in my G19. But I'm guessing the SB version of the Gold Dot in 9mm would do the trick as well in my Glock, even if labelled for short barrels?

I'm not thinking of switching, but its always useful to have a backup plan in case there is an interruption of supplies of your usual Sd ammo on the internet.

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DenaliPark
October 12, 2010, 11:11 PM
When last I stopped into Gander mountain, they were selling 9mm hollowpoints for damn near $60.00 a box(20).

DonRon
October 12, 2010, 11:41 PM
Our Military uses 9mm 124 gr NATO FMJ with remarkable success and the are not being attacked by ballistic gelatin either. That's a no brainier for me.

DenaliPark
October 13, 2010, 12:25 AM
Our Military uses 9mm 124 gr NATO FMJ with remarkable success and the are not being attacked by ballistic gelatin either. That's a no brainier for me.
Their not having remarkable success with the Nato load, it's universally despised as a completely untrustworthy performer on human targets. 9mm ball is about the worst manstopping cartridge I can think of, with perhaps the possible exception of 158 gr lead roundnose .38 special.

DonRon
October 13, 2010, 07:37 AM
Their not having remarkable success with the Nato load, it's universally despised as a completely untrustworthy performer on human targets. 9mm ball is about the worst manstopping cartridge I can think of, with perhaps the possible exception of 158 gr lead roundnose .38 special.
Gee, my son just completed 27 years in the Military and does not seem to share your views. He also did 6 tours in the sand box and only used his side arm once. He sure did shoot a lot of 5.56 NATO FMJ. Now ball ammunition has been a Military standard for many many years in many wars and as I recall we won most of those. Now as far as .38 round nose, that has played a very successful role with police departments for many years as well. Just how many men do you plan to stop today with your over price and over rated ammunition that was cleverly marketed based on lies?

ProCarryNAustin
October 13, 2010, 01:03 PM
First off, I appreciate your son's service.

If he was happy with the performance of 9mm ball, he would be the first of many returning veteran friends of mine that didn't find it sorely lacking. Quite a few of these guys had to rely on their sidearm and with less than stellar results. 5.56 ball and 9mm ball have two totally different wound patterns. 5.56 yaws, splits and causes a lot of damage relative to its caliber. 9mm ball punches neat little holes with very small wound channels and without dumping much of their energy into the target. .38 lead round nose did not serve well as a stopper and it does not take much searching to find that information. Pistols are not good stoppers at best and it is wise to utilize every technical advantage possible. Saying that hollowpoint ammunition is "cleverly marketed and based on lies" is just not born out by the facts. Folks like Evan Marshall, FBI and some of the major state police agencies have been collecting data for many years now to support the effectiveness of more modern pistol ammunition. The fact is, I can't think of a single civilian agency out there that would even authorize full metal jacket ammunition for sidearms let alone mandate its use.

DonRon
October 13, 2010, 01:46 PM
You are really going to believe the FBI and the Government? Not me! I will do my own thinking thank you very much!

Madcap_Magician
October 13, 2010, 02:23 PM
You are really going to believe the FBI and the Government? Not me! I will do my own thinking thank you very much!

Amazing.

Do you carry 9mm FMJ or something? You'd be the only one I know out of the people who have a choice. Even the NYPD a few years ago finally realized how stupid it was to continue doing that.

ProCarryNAustin
October 13, 2010, 03:04 PM
You are really going to believe the FBI and the Government? Not me! I will do my own thinking thank you very much!
Actually, I am really going to believe those who have actual test results to base their decisions on instead of ancedotal opinions or those based on no testing at all.

DonRon
October 13, 2010, 05:25 PM
The US Military has been killing people with round nosed ball and FMJ ammunition with remarkable success for almost 100 years now. That my friend is quantitative proof if there ever was any. Would you stand in front of a ,so called weak .380 loaded with FMJ and get shot with it. I would surely hope not. That is also quantitative proof as well. The human body doesn't do well being hit with objects at speeds over 100 feet a second from a sling shot. You can only imagine how the reaction to objects going at 1,000 feet a second regardless of it's shape would be.

Care to address that with all your internet expertise?

ohwell
October 13, 2010, 05:42 PM
JHP ammo is designed to do a couple of important things, one is to expand so as to create a bigger wound channel this may help in a faster stoppage of the threat. Two is to expand and stop in the intended target and not wound more people that may have been in the line of fire. I believe the military may be very happy with just wounding and making more enemy combatants stop fighting to take care of the wounded. They may also like the idea that they could wound more than one person with one shot. Thats not exactly want you want to do in a self defense non militerized zone area.

ProCarryNAustin
October 13, 2010, 05:47 PM
The military uses FMJ because they have to. That is not a compelling reason nor is it quantitative (not sure how that word even applies here) proof. I am not aware of any organization that has a choice and still chooses to use FMJ pistol ammunition. Maybe you could point me to an example. If not, the implication is that all those with a choice have choosen poorly and somehow you and the military (which does not have a choice) are masters of the correct answer. Unlikely.

I would also be curious how you reconcile the following two statements.
"You are really going to believe the FBI and the Government? Not me! I will do my own thinking thank you very much!"
and
"The US Military has been killing people with round nosed ball and FMJ ammunition with remarkable success for almost 100 years now. That my friend is quantitative proof if there ever was any."

So are you basing your argument on what the government does, or not?

If you are interested in the study of actual shootings, I would strongly recommend any of the current books by Evan Marshall. I don't consider this the end all be all, but at least it is based on actual data collected and not just ancedotal assertions.

DonRon
October 13, 2010, 06:14 PM
The military uses FMJ because they have to. That is not a compelling reason nor is it quantitative (not sure how that word even applies here) proof. I am not aware of any organization that has a choice and still chooses to use FMJ pistol ammunition. Maybe you could point me to an example. If not, the implication is that all those with a choice have choosen poorly and somehow you and the military (which does not have a choice) are masters of the correct answer. Unlikely.

I would also be curious how you reconcile the following two statements.
"You are really going to believe the FBI and the Government? Not me! I will do my own thinking thank you very much!"
and
"The US Military has been killing people with round nosed ball and FMJ ammunition with remarkable success for almost 100 years now. That my friend is quantitative proof if there ever was any."

So are you basing your argument on what the government does, or not?

If you are interested in the study of actual shootings, I would strongly recommend any of the current books by Evan Marshall. I don't consider this the end all be all, but at least it is based on actual data collected and not just ancedotal assertions.
You don't really believe that speculation drivel of Evan Marshall now do you. Psst, I have seen real shootings up close when I was in the service and as a police officer. Shot the Hollow point stuff if you feel inclined too but don't knock those of us that don't and stop trying to force your will on me. I do my own thinking, thank you very much.

usp9
October 13, 2010, 06:18 PM
I am a big fan of Gold Dot but I did not like the Speer GD Short Barrel ammo I tried in my Kahr and HK P2000sk. It is a good, high quality round, no doubt, but it seemed to have a good bit higher recoil. I value being able to get back on target fast and the SGDSB just threw me off too much. I went back to my normal ammo, Ranger T and lately Winchester PDX1+P.

DonRon
October 13, 2010, 06:27 PM
This useless argument is real easy to shut down. Robert Kennedy was shot and killed by a .22 shot lead round nosed bullet. Just let me know when you would like to see if you like being hit with a .22 shot round nosed bullet sir.

DenaliPark
October 13, 2010, 06:43 PM
Gee, my son just completed 27 years in the Military and does not seem to share your views. He also did 6 tours in the sand box and only used his side arm once. He sure did shoot a lot of 5.56 NATO FMJ. Now ball ammunition has been a Military standard for many many years in many wars and as I recall we won most of those. Now as far as .38 round nose, that has played a very successful role with police departments for many years as well. Just how many men do you plan to stop today with your over price and over rated ammunition that was cleverly marketed based on lies?
The US has signed onto the Hague conventions of 1907(actually they honored the first one too in 1899 but didn't sign it)in which article 23(e)states that no member nation shall use ammunition intended to create unnecessary suffering! Thats why we use ball ammunition, however you should understand that this is considered voluntary by DoD, in fact last I checked, US Special operations troops were all using expanding tip(hollowpoint, or exposed lead, and exotic blended alloy)ammunition!

Nobody, and I mean nobody of any serious experience, would ever forward the argument that 9mm ball(100 gr, 105 gr, 115 gr or 124 gr)is anything more than a barely marginal performer on human targets.

ProCarryNAustin
October 13, 2010, 06:53 PM
You dispel another person's data collection with only an insult. This is in line with your other posts that I have read and I should have expected as much. Again, please feel free to provide one single organization that has a choice between FMJ and hollowpoint/expanding ammunition and has opted for FMJ. If not, your argument is without support.

eddism
October 13, 2010, 07:12 PM
MagSafe ammo rules with regard to velocity and energy dump in the 9mm size. For me, hopefully, I pray, in the event for the need of using deadly force. That single shot has to finish the job. Price of the ammo has no bearing on the outcome. A cheap lawyer costs around $125/hr.

gofastman
October 13, 2010, 07:21 PM
I am a big fan of Gold Dot but I did not like the Speer GD Short Barrel ammo I tried in my Kahr and HK P2000sk. It is a good, high quality round, no doubt, but it seemed to have a good bit higher recoil. I value being able to get back on target fast and the SGDSB just threw me off too much. I went back to my normal ammo, Ranger T and lately Winchester PDX1+P.
Yes, I would bet its a good round too.
I wonder if the extra recoil you felt was due to a faster burning powder :confused:

My favorite load for short barrels (well, favorite overall 9mm load :D) is the HST 147gr+P

ProCarryNAustin
October 13, 2010, 07:26 PM
Yes, I would bet its a good round too.
I wonder if the extra recoil you felt was due to a faster burning powder :confused:

My favorite load for short barrels (well, favorite overall 9mm load :D) is the HST 147gr+P
HST is my personal favorite. I have used the standard velocity 147gr in my Glocks and now in my STI. Accurate, clean and performs well within the FBI protocols.

http://le.atk.com/

ProCarryNAustin
October 13, 2010, 07:28 PM
Duplicate. Please delete.

Steve C
October 13, 2010, 07:59 PM
Nobody, and I mean nobody of any serious experience, would ever forward the argument that 9mm ball(100 gr, 105 gr, 115 gr or 124 gr)is anything more than a barely marginal performer on human targets.

IMO there is little argument that HP's are better than FMJ's for defensive pistol ammunition. However there's a lot myths, suppositions, and urban legends regarding the level of effectiveness or ineffectiveness of ball ammo and the term marginal means different things to different people. To some people terms like marginal equates to not dangerous or not capable. I don't think there's any rational argument that a CNS hit with ball ammo would be any less effective than a JHP in the same place. Dead is dead.

The way some talk about ball ammo you'd think that its about as effective as a rubber band or pellet gun. A rational person wouldn't think this either.

Where JHP's become more effective is in those situations where one is relying on bleed out (circulatory system disruption) to stop the BG as the larger wound cavity should increase blood loss.

Personally I don't minimize the effectiveness of FMJ with terms like marginal, but instead say its just not as good as the JHP alternative in most situations.

Mac's Precision
October 13, 2010, 08:40 PM
To address the matter of FMJ vs hollow point ammo you have to acknowledge that there are 2 ways to stop an animal....2 legged or 4.

The first method is through tissue damage from absorbing energy and bleeding trauma from wound channel damage. If this is the method to be used then hollow point ammo will play a role as the wound channel CAN be significantly better assuming the ammo works as engineered. IF it does the diameter of the bullet will expand and as such the jacket material will serve to act as ripping / fragmenting devices to further encourage tissue bleeding and organ damage.

The second method of stopping involves hydrostatic trauma from projectiles traveling in excess of about 1200 feet per second. .357 Magnum, .357 Sig and above have the potential to enter the hydrostatic shock wave arena even with ball ammo. Rifle ammo of FMJ configuration will be using speed to open tissue in a tremendous wave and hydraulically over pressure the capillaries in the surrounding areas and hopefully up into the central nervous system. 308 makes a better stopper than 223 due to a more effective range in which it retains enough speed / energy to do damage of this kind.

9mm ball doesn't travel at a speed high enough to generate much if any hydrostatic shock. It is simply a .355 diameter hole punch. Shot placement is key when using such a load as hitting vital organs is critical to stopping performance. 9mm is a round that will be relying on wound channel trauma to induce adequate bleeding to stop voluntary action. A .355 diameter hole isn't much of a wound channel so implementing hollow points that will produce a larger wound channel and reduce risk of a through and through shot is a wise decision. I would be less concerned about FMJ being a poor stopper than I would about the bullet NOT staying IN the perp and killing a bystander. I don't want a bullet that will penetrate over 14 inches as it might leave your attacker and kill a Nun on the street corner.

FMJ rifle ammo often times passes through the target leaving the scene. Due to hydrostatic shock and hitting bone it can do some tremendous damage on the way through. 9mm ball also is frequently inclined to pass through the target leaving a wound as if shot by a target arrow as it lacks the speed to blow open a temporary stretch cavity. The temporary stretch cavity leads to massive capillary damage, organ destruction, interruption of nerve impulses and circulatory overpressure due to hydraulic pressure wave action.

Bottom line it has to be massive blood loss, hydrostatic shock or expert shot placement. The .38 Special 158 grain round nose @750 feet per second is a poor stopper if it is fired into non critical areas. That round lacks all the needed aspects to address the requirements needed without expert shot placement.

Cartridges with good stopping characteristics have near 400 foot pounds of energy or WELL above. The combination of bullet weight and speed play a big part in making enough power to get the job done. Bullet design plays a big part in getting that energy figure to absorb and stop in the target. Bullets that pass through do NOT dump all the energy in the target and it is wasted in propelling the bullet beyond the target in a collision course with the next target.

Cheers
Mac.

DonRon
October 13, 2010, 08:57 PM
The most common cause of death by gunshot is Exsanguination (also known colloquially as bleeding out). In Weehawken, New Jersey on July 11, 1804, Arron Burr mortally wounded Hamilton on the first shot. Still alive, but paralyzed from the waist down, Hamilton was brought to the home of a friend where he slowly died from internal bleeding. He breathed his last at two o'clock in the afternoon on July 12.

This was a round ball bullet and not a hollow point. A .22 caliber short round nosed bullet killed Robert Kennedy. You will never convince me that a bullet of any size and shape in not capable of causing death.

Mac's Precision
October 13, 2010, 09:21 PM
DonRon...

Certainly all bullets right down to air gun pellets will cause death. I never disputed that aspect of the discussion. There is a vast difference between causing death...and stopping all aggressive action.

All bullets CAN be killers. Not all bullets are good STOPPERS. I don't carry a gun because I want the target to die from lead poisoning... I carry what I carry because I want all aggressive threat activity to STOP ASAP RIGHT NOW. That immediate STOP happens best with high energy that causes the largest volume of circulatory and CNS damage.

.22 LR can be a stopper ....IF the circumstances allow me a precision shot at vital brain locations. Is it my choice of caliber....uh...no. I find it difficult to think that during a violent encounter I am going to get Joe the rag man to pose for a perfect shot. More than likely I am going to have a better chance to get 2-3 shots to center of "available" mass. If that available mass is not A zone hits...I have to take them as they are all I have. I need to dump massive damage to the area available.

Cheers
Mac.

Cheers
Mac.

Steve C
October 13, 2010, 09:21 PM
...you have to acknowledge that there are 2 ways to stop an animal....2 legged or 4.

I was told there are only 3 physical ways to stop a person or animal for that matter. 1. Central nervous system interruption. 2. Skeletal destruction 3. Circulatory system depletion.

There is also a host of other psychological reasons both people and animals break off an attack, most related to self preservation.

Mac's Precision
October 13, 2010, 09:51 PM
Steve you are correct. There are 3 ways. I always dismiss the skeletal destruction option as a last resort as it isn't always an effective STOP but may have to be used. But yes...you are correct... 3 ways.

And again...correct, animals, 2 legged or 4 do give up for changes in the level of commitment to fight or flight. Fortunately, most the time human animals aren't all that committed to the fight. Some animals on the other hand commit to the fight...and commit to the death. I witnessed a bear take 2 rounds of .338 Win Mag to the head / neck and it failed to give up. It finally was stopped by rounds delivered to the shoulder and rear hip joint. So in that case blowing the tracks off the tank stopped the charge.

Some animals aren't talking B.S. when they decide to kill you. Lung / bleeding wounds only slow them down a bit. Humans that have lost all concern for self preservation or regard for pain due to the influence of mental instability or drug use may respond to bullet wounds much more like animals. They may take hits and ignore the damage. In that case blowing the tracks off the tank may be the best last resort.

Cheers
Mac.

Mac's Precision
October 13, 2010, 10:11 PM
To get back on course and answer the poster's question:

Yes...both rounds should be fine for your Glock. In most cases "home defense" or short barreled engineered loads incorporate alterations in powder burn rate and or flash modifiers. Most loads aimed for short barrels try to get the most bounce per ounce from barrels shorter than duty guns. Your 4" barrel will be fine running either load.

I have run that same load in my Sig P225 with good results. Your Glock has a similar length barrel.

I personally seek carry ammo based on which loading has the most energy, comes from a reputable manufacture, uses a good quality bullet in a weight that my gun shoots the most accurately. A person needs to test carry ammo extensively to ascertain which combination of bullet weight, speed and pressure works best. Not every load works great in every gun but many loads work acceptably in most guns. I think it is worth the time and money to test a few, off sand bags to pick the true nail driver load. I have some pet loads in each caliber that I like and turn to when asked about specific "Known" good ones.

For example in my Sig P220 Elite Dark I carry Winchester Ranger-T +P 230 grain. It shoots that load very accurately and puts that 230 grain bullet over my chronograph at 990 feet per second. They group VERY well and hit like a slap from the hand of God. They are amazing on knocking down steel plates.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj61/motorcyclemac/IMG_1025.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj61/motorcyclemac/IMG_1023.jpg

DenaliPark
October 13, 2010, 10:21 PM
Thats you reading into it what you wish to read into it! Marginal represents unreliable, 9mm ball just doesn't deliver the energy necessary to cause the significant blood pressure spike required to instantly incapacitate, a consequence of it's lack of expansion. It's because of this that 9mm Ball is highly overpenetrative, a specific threat that led the NYPD to finally see the light and adopt the 124 gr Gold Dot as the issue ammunition for their G-19's

No responsible professional in 2010 America would advocate for the adoption of 9mm ball as a duty, or self defense load, as it's just as likely to shoot right through it's intended target and into the innocent behind them, just as it did in NYC. For the very same reason, it's a marginal battlefield performer, it just zips through humans without dumping it's energy, again, because it does not expand.

DonRon
October 13, 2010, 11:11 PM
Do you know for a fact what other departments using 9 mm side arms mandate for carry ammunition for their officers?

DonRon
October 13, 2010, 11:14 PM
DonRon...

Certainly all bullets right down to air gun pellets will cause death. I never disputed that aspect of the discussion. There is a vast difference between causing death...and stopping all aggressive action.

All bullets CAN be killers. Not all bullets are good STOPPERS. I don't carry a gun because I want the target to die from lead poisoning... I carry what I carry because I want all aggressive threat activity to STOP ASAP RIGHT NOW. That immediate STOP happens best with high energy that causes the largest volume of circulatory and CNS damage.

.22 LR can be a stopper ....IF the circumstances allow me a precision shot at vital brain locations. Is it my choice of caliber....uh...no. I find it difficult to think that during a violent encounter I am going to get Joe the rag man to pose for a perfect shot. More than likely I am going to have a better chance to get 2-3 shots to center of "available" mass. If that available mass is not A zone hits...I have to take them as they are all I have. I need to dump massive damage to the area available.

Cheers
Mac.

Cheers
Mac.
Permit me to ask you this question. When confronted with a shooting situation just when do you STOP shooting?

widgeon
October 14, 2010, 12:13 AM
apart from our government's signing treaties forbidding the use of expanding rounds, ball ammunition is preferred for military use. this is because if you kill your adversary, you have taken one soldier off the board--but if you wound him, he will require the care of multiple other people.....which weakens you enemy more than killing one soldier.

Mac's Precision
October 15, 2010, 03:43 AM
DonRon...

In my opinion the method of shoot....evaluate, shoot is the best method. Shots should be delivered and then assume the low ready to determine the effect. If the threat is still a threat, deliver additional rounds until the threat ceases to be a threat.

I was trained to put two rounds to center of mass. Evaluate effect. IF the threat has failed to stop. Then deliver two shots again to center of mass and align for a failure to stop head shot. Deliver that failure to stop shot if needed to neutralize the threat.

Cheers
Mac.

AJChenMPH
October 15, 2010, 03:12 PM
Do you know for a fact what other departments using 9 mm side arms mandate for carry ammunition for their officers?
Per an NYPD officer acquaintance of mine: NYPD = Speer GDHP 124gr. +P

Obviously for OPSEC, I'm not going to post his name, but he's a plainclothes officer out of the 5th Precinct in lower Manhattan/Chinatown. And if you Google "NYPD ammunition", you'll see a lot of information (yes, even anecdotal) consistent with what I stated.

Shawn Dodson
October 15, 2010, 04:04 PM
I wouldn't bother with the Gold Dot Short Barrel load for your Glock 19. It is designed to expand at lower velocities and may over expand and underpenetrate when fired from your Glock 19. It's not designed for your Glock 19

If you prefer a 124gr +P load, I suggest either Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P or Federal HST 124gr +P, both of which can be purchased in 50 round boxes for less than $30 at http://www.policehq.com/Products/CCI-9GD and http://www.policehq.com/Products/FC-9HST, respectively.

Cheers!

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