Record Texas Buck


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Art Eatman
October 13, 2010, 01:40 PM
http://www.whitetaildomains.com/Articles/ShowArticle.aspx/205/Likely+new+State+Record+Whitetail+Buck+Harvested+in+Texas

"...what makes this 300 plus inch buck so unique is that it is a 100% native deer with no scientific influence at all."

I find it interesting that this hunter's son has held the previous state record.

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CoRoMo
October 13, 2010, 01:46 PM
Holyfrigginsmokes!!

Hard to swallow those two bits you posted though. Call me skeptical. :scrutiny:

Here's a picture of the same deer, eating from one of the ranch's feeders.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=165644070116231&set=a.165248866822418.42908.120478427966129

Art Eatman
October 13, 2010, 02:05 PM
Sceptical? Of what?

One thing for sure: Plenty of people have seen the buck. I imagine that if there were anything phony, that would be all over the Internet.

FWIW, Webb County has historically produced a very high percentage of large bucks in Texas. My father hunted down in that brush country from back in the 1930s on until the 1960s. A fair number of stories of bucks that field-dressed around 200 pounds, with racks in the mid-20-inch size.

Back 35 years ago, driving up the highway through the King Ranch, I saw a buck that whose horns were notably out past his ears. A good 24", at least. Even from the car he looked to be at least a 10- if not a 12-pointer. And that was long before all this "scientific deer management" stuff.

The thing about the brush country is that any buck which gets past the young'n'stupid stage can easily hide out from hunters--and grow seriously big.

CoRoMo
October 13, 2010, 02:09 PM
Sceptical? Of what?
I don't believe for one minute that Oswald shot Kennedy. :neener:

HGUNHNTR
October 13, 2010, 02:17 PM
Thats a big antlered deer for sure. But I have to ask.............so what? I don't get the fascination with antlers. Now quality of meat, yeah I get that. I have shot big deer on the farm as a kid, but guys just sawed the antlers off and nailed them up inside the barn. My dads barn probably has 6-8 sets that would go over 150 some probably 25 points higher yet, nobody cared 15-20 years ago.

desidog
October 13, 2010, 02:25 PM
Marko went on to say that the deer was a “100% native pasture deer that had not been manipulated in any way. Rain, protein, feed and patience..."

IMHO, setting up a feeder is definitely manipulation: what you put in it is additional protein they wouldn't be getting otherwise....and knowing that, i'm inclined to be skeptical of every other thing they say, except that it's darn big and got shot.

Captcurt
October 13, 2010, 03:40 PM
Sorry, but I never could get excited over shooting a deer over feed, and that is how 90% of the deer are taken in Texas. If I wanted to do that I would just drive out onto my BIL's land and shoot his cows.

Yarddog
October 13, 2010, 04:19 PM
Fair chase is fair chase ; ) PS AWSOME DEER
Y/D

auschip
October 13, 2010, 05:20 PM
I never did understand the difference between a feeder, and hunting over a cultivated food plot. How is throwing some corn on a sendero different from hunting a bean field or shooting deer coming to a farmer's corn field?

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 13, 2010, 06:08 PM
How is throwing some corn on a sendero different from hunting a bean field or shooting deer coming to a farmer's corn field?

Other than if it is legal or not in your state, absolutely none whatsoever!!! You accomplish the exact same fact, attraction of game to a certain spot!! I guess some can't seem to get that through their thick skulls for some odd reason.

shaggy430
October 13, 2010, 06:11 PM
That is an awesome deer.

Ike R
October 13, 2010, 09:50 PM
Nice deer, seen some big ones here where I am working in Jasper, Texas. And while maybe its not "intentional" but there are too many game ranches and other property owners in Texas importing breeding stock out of Northern States/Canada to garantee that is a 100% Texas buck without genetic testing.

kyle1974
October 13, 2010, 11:41 PM
I never did understand the difference between a feeder, and hunting over a cultivated food plot. How is throwing some corn on a sendero different from hunting a bean field or shooting deer coming to a farmer's corn field?


it's because people are jealous of the deer quality in texas... so they whine about deer coming into feeders.

I would like to see *anyone* do a spot and stalk where that deer was killed. You can't see 20 feet into most of the brush down there. It's not the same kind of hunting, because it's not the same kind of area.

HGUNHNTR
October 14, 2010, 12:29 AM
I never did understand the difference between a feeder, and hunting over a cultivated food plot. How is throwing some corn on a sendero different from hunting a bean field or shooting deer coming to a farmer's corn field?




Its a bit different if you are baiting them to a 6 foot circle, rather than a 120 acre field.

jbkebert
October 14, 2010, 12:42 AM
What a deer. Question though how did a anemic Texas buck carry that set of head gear around:neener:. Just messin when we were in Texas a couple weeks ago I counted 237 deer in 4 days. Granted most of these were probably seen multiple times either through my spotting scope or up close near my stand. When compared to Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri; Texas deer are pretty small body wise. Anyhow great buck.

auschip
October 14, 2010, 12:46 AM
Its a bit different if you are baiting them to a 6 foot circle, rather than a 120 acre field.

Why? What's so different about it? Magnitude of the bait? I'm curious why a 6 foot plot of Biologic is legal, but a 6 foot circle of corn is immoral.

HGUNHNTR
October 14, 2010, 12:54 AM
^ THis should answer your question. For anyone with experience farming you will know the difference immediately. The concentration of food in a small area is what causes deer to come to that area to feed. In a field, you typically don't get those concentrations, grain is spread out over a large area. A small patch of clover (biologic as you stated) is not going to be as appealing as a small patch of corn. It simply doesn't have the nutritional value as the same amount of corn. Put a little hay and a little corn in from of some cattle and see what gets eaten first.

I see baiting as a crutch for poor hunting skills, just my opinion. But why else would you need to entice deer to come to you, thats not hunting, thats waiting.

AKElroy
October 14, 2010, 01:37 AM
My dads barn probably has 6-8 sets that would go over 150 some probably 25 points higher yet, nobody cared 15-20 years ago.

He cared enough to hang them in the barn. I could easily post your sentiments 6 months out of the year, and then I start looking at the trailcam pics and realize that I want that big rack. Once I get it, then it will be about the meat. That's what the rest of the tag is for.

AKElroy
October 14, 2010, 01:44 AM
You can't see 20 feet into most of the brush down there.

+1. It's not like your getting them to the feed like I do in the Hill Country (no apologies for it), In webb County your just trying to get them to cross a shooting lane. That is thick, flat, thorny, ugly greesewood & misquite country down Laredo way. If they don't hear a dinner bell to get them moving, you are going home empty handed.

AKElroy
October 14, 2010, 01:51 AM
I see baiting as a crutch for poor hunting skills, just my opinion. But why else would you need to entice deer to come to you, thats not hunting, thats waiting.

I don't think I've ever seen this posted by a Texan. I wonder, if feeders were legal in your state, if the same "passion for the fair hunt" would be such a dominant concern.

It is what it is. I don't have the only feeder. All the neighbors have them as well, which makes my prospects no different than yours. For all the feeders, Texas has one of the most populous deer density counts in the country. A lot of hunters, even with those feeders, go home empy handed. Just like Georgia.

To make it truly fair for the animal, take your accordian & bathe in High Karate before your hike into the wild.

HGUNHNTR
October 14, 2010, 09:05 AM
I'm not trying to make it fair for the animal, I'm trying to kill the animal, and I don't need to lure them in with bait to do it.
He cared enough to hang them in the barn If you could see the "barn" you would change your mind. :)

~z
October 14, 2010, 09:09 AM
It simply doesn't have the nutritional value as the same amount of corn.
Gotta dissagree here, corn is of low nutritional value, it is the icecream of deer food.

I see no problem with any style of hunting but anticipate the debate and infighting will continue...
Nice deer.
~z

kyle1974
October 14, 2010, 09:17 AM
what some of you do not understand, is that a corn or protein feeder makes up a very small percentage of what white tails eat. It is like taking vitamins... or eating candy.

do you like it? yes. is that all you eat? no.

The real benefit of feeding pays off during drought years though. You can tell that the amount of feed goes way up when there is little to no rain.


I guess it is different attracting them to a feeder than a food plot... because it's not like a common deer rifle can shoot very far..:rolleyes:

the bottom line is that a lot of people in texas want big deer, and they know what it takes to get them. primarily AGE, second nutrition and genetics.

if you're pleased shooting 1.5 year old deer year after year that are so stupid you could walk up to them and convince them to commit suicide, that's fine.

personally, I like going after the big, old, mature deer. I want big horns.

birdshot8's
October 14, 2010, 09:23 AM
that buck is amazing. this thread has become a feeder thread. Was the buck shot under a feeder?

kyle1974
October 14, 2010, 09:25 AM
What a deer. Question though how did a anemic Texas buck carry that set of head gear around. Just messin when we were in Texas a couple weeks ago I counted 237 deer in 4 days. Granted most of these were probably seen multiple times either through my spotting scope or up close near my stand. When compared to Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri; Texas deer are pretty small body wise. Anyhow great buck.

it depends where you are. The average mature buck on my lease weighs about 200 lbs. we have killed deer up to 240 lbs.

the deer in the hill country are very small, most weigh less than 100 lbs.

auschip
October 14, 2010, 10:21 AM
THis should answer your question. For anyone with experience farming you will know the difference immediately. The concentration of food in a small area is what causes deer to come to that area to feed. In a field, you typically don't get those concentrations, grain is spread out over a large area. A small patch of clover (biologic as you stated) is not going to be as appealing as a small patch of corn. It simply doesn't have the nutritional value as the same amount of corn. Put a little hay and a little corn in from of some cattle and see what gets eaten first.


So let me make sure I understand, a field of corn contains very little food, but a feeder that puts out 1 lb of corn is concentrated.

A 6 foot circle of corn is concentrated, but a 1/2 acre food plot of peas, wheat, and oats specifically planted to attract deer isn't attractive enough to bring a deer in.

We used to have a place roughly an hour North of these guys (La Salle County), and the brush was next to impenetrable for a human. Heck, even the deer had mesquite thorns in them when skinned out. Spot and stalk simply doesn't exist in alot of these places, and I never heard of pass shooting deer.

wombat13
October 14, 2010, 10:55 AM
I don't care if hunters use feeders or not. They are illegal in NY, but if they were legal I'd probably use one to be honest. I hunt primarily for the meat. I'd like to get one big set of horns mounted in my life, but otherwise I actually prefer doe - they taste much better.

That said, anyone who claims they don't understand the difference between hunting over a feeder and hunting a 120 acre bean field is just being obtuse. When you hunt over a feeder you know exactly where the deer is going to end up. You can choose the perfect location for a stand/blind and know that you are going to have an easy shot. If it didn't greatly increase your odds of harvesting a deer, no one would use feeders.

When you hunt a large field the deer could come from multiple directions and head to any part of the field. You have to look for deer sign to identify a good location for your stand/blind and then you have to scan a much larger area.

Hunting over a big field of corn and hunting over a feeder are similar, but there is most definitely a difference in degree.

Art Eatman
October 14, 2010, 10:58 AM
auschip, think "density". :) Sure, a field has lots of corn, or corn left from harvest, but it's spread out. No different from hunting a grain field for doves after the harvest.

But with any sort of feeder, it's all right there on the table in one spot, not all spread out like a spaced-out smorgasbord.

As to deer size in Texas: If you look at the map, consider the area enclosed by a line from San Antonio to Corpus as an east boundary, and by US 90 on the north, going west to Del Rio. Within that--generally--is what's called the "Brush Country". The "brasada" of J. Frank Dobie's books. That has always been big-buck country.

In the hill country of Llano, Mason and Brady counties, plus similar geograpy in the general area, many of the once-large ranches have been broken up by sale or inheritance. Plus, multitudes of small-tract "ranchettes". Overall, fewer hunters kill the deer in enough numbers to keep the herd truly within the carrying capacity of the land. That transition of land use during the 1960s and onward led to a lessening of the average size of the deer. Just way too many deer for the habitat. You wind up with "greyhounds with horns".

You have the same amount of land as before, but fewer hunters--and no predators in any quantity. Add in the eradication of the screw-worm fly and it's a recipe for a population explosion--and "pigmy-ization" of the deer herd.

The hill country area can have horrendus winter die-offs after a drouth. The only year for which I have any sort of hard number is for the winter of 1963/64; 1963 was a severe drouth year. In the three counties listed above, the hunter kill was estimated by Parks & Wildlife at around 15,000. The winter kill was estimated at around 17,000.

Overall, however, there are strong efforts being made to reduce total numbers and get the average size back to being consistent with the carrying capacity of the land. Some are doing the genetic thing and all the scientific stuff; others are just controlling the total numbers and controlling what size bucks are taken by hunters.

This record buck seems to be from the latter method of management.

HGUNHNTR
October 14, 2010, 11:17 AM
So let me make sure I understand, a field of corn contains very little food, but a feeder that puts out 1 lb of corn is concentrated.

Yes, since most deer hunting takes place after harvest a field of corn will have much less grain per square foot that a baited area will. Thats if you have your combine set up correctly and you are not leaving a lot of it in the field.

auschip
October 14, 2010, 11:20 AM
Yes, I was intentionally being obtuse. I grow tired of the folks who complain about hunting over a feeder, while happily setting up a blind next to farmer John's corn field (or a cultivated food plot specifically for deer). Folks have been hunting over bait since the beginning of time. Oak trees with acorns, water holes, persimmon, heck even good browse can be considered bait in lean seasons. Where do we draw the line?

HGUNHNTR
October 14, 2010, 11:26 AM
I beleive the line is at mechanical feeders that develop feeding patterns in deer. Again, just my opinion.

Setting up next to a large field where grain is sparsely spread out over a very large area is different than hunting over a feeder with a timer that dispenses grain in one area. Why do folks use feeders if you could be just as effective next to a field, or stand of oak trees?
Another downside to animals all eating in one area is a more rapid spread of disease, ie. CWD.

jmorris
October 14, 2010, 11:29 AM
That’s a nice deer and years ago folks may not have cared about the parts of a deer you don’t eat; however, pulling big antlers off land brings in a lot of money for ranchers. If it was just about food everyone would just go to the grocery store.

Kind of funny reading some of these post and thinking about how we have to bury the corn we bait hogs with so the deer don’t set of the motion activated radios that alert us that hogs are present.

auschip
October 14, 2010, 11:41 AM
Why do folks use feeders if you could be just as effective next to a field, or stand of oak trees?
Another downside to animals all eating in one area is a more rapid spread of disease, ie. CWD.

Not all places have cultivated fields or stands of Oaks. The locations we are talking about are rough land. CWD hasn't been found in TX (To my knowledge), wouldn't it be more prevalent, since we allow feeders?

jmorris
October 14, 2010, 11:42 AM
Where do we draw the line?

I would say where ever you want to as land/livestock owner. What is the difference? It is just a matter of, what do you want to utilize your resources for?


http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/19163000.jpg

http://www.angus.org/prphotosweb/09_MO_St_Fr_FFA/16169029.jpg

http://www.steakmeals.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/steak.jpg

desidog
October 14, 2010, 11:45 AM
Well, you guys in TX really do it big, i guess. Feeders and purpose-planted fields. To me that's wasting potential income from a cash crop. But income from a trophy-hunter is good money too i suppose. Here the land-value is much higher per acre, so that's not an option.

In CT, deer are considered a nuisance. Much like your hogs i suppose. "Overpopulation" has a different meaning too. Here more car accidents are caused by deer than anything else; and in especially rough winters we get nose-prints on our house windows where they've been licking the condensation.

I don't need to bait deer, because they wander through the property all the time; and my goal is not to pay to seed a field for them, or pull my back carrying buckets of corn to a feeder; instead my goal is to deter them from our property and rose bushes, and thinning the herd so the survivors have more to eat, so we don't have walking skeletons on our field and driveway in late winter, and i get to eat something in the process. Also, not having to drive over-cautiously at night would be nice because the deer are standing in the middle of a winding road, which can add a lot of time to a commute, since they don't move out of the way.

I don't freeze my butt off in a tree. I walk the property, and more often than not i see a couple. I think that's "natural," unlike the Texas approach. Perhaps they wouldn't be overpopulated if you guys stopped feeding them...that would be natural.

Don't get me wrong, if you're into shooting at deer that have been chummed in to a feeder, i don't have issue with it. I just don't consider it to be fair-chase. Much like shooting in a high-fence; that's like fish in a barrel. To be extreme about it, you might as well shoot up the grocer's meat isle and save yourself some time field-dressing, and mount the styrofoam and shrink-wrap on the wall. What makes a trophy is perception, culture and trend.

shaggy430
October 14, 2010, 12:02 PM
When are we as hunters going to get past judging other hunters for using legal means to harvest animals? That is the last thing we need. If it's legal where you live do it. If it's not, then don't.

This thread started about a nice deer. Get off your soapbox and get behind your fellow hunters.

Art Eatman
October 14, 2010, 12:08 PM
desidog, I realize that you live a long way from Texas, but you're generalizing from very little knowledge.

For one thing, most deer feeding is only done as an attractant during hunting season. And, not all that much, in total "pounds per deer". It has no effect on size or numbers.

The game ranches in Texas with year-around feeding programs are maybe 1% to 2% of either numbers of ranches or of acreage.

Some hunters sit and watch at feeders. Others will still-hunt in the general area of a feeder. Still others will do walking-hunts, covering a fair number of miles in a day.

And again, for the umpteenth time: In general, the high-fenced pastures are commonly larger than a mere 1,000 to 2,000 acres. They're commonly in the brush country where it would take one helluva man to hunt more than a hundred acres in a day. Many are readily likened to a jungle of mesquite brush, prickly pear and catclaw. (IOW, don't wear wool; you'll wind up nekkid.)

Given the economics of ranching, the cash inflow from deer hunters is often the difference between making your payments or being "land poor".

Land values? :D A year or so back I saw an ad for one ranch of about 17,000 acres at $37 an acre. There are others in the few-thousand-acre size at $4,000 per acre and some even higher. Depends on where you are.

JoeMal
October 14, 2010, 12:18 PM
I sure love a nice rack

Damn good lookin deer

desidog
October 14, 2010, 12:30 PM
Thanks for that clarification Art, I don't know much about it, and my view is probably stilted by watching hunting shows on TV. from other posts, i presumed feeding to be more wide-spread and continuous.

I guess i could sell and retire at 35 to Texas - land here can be over a million per acre (with house). If i got folks to come hunt here (for admittedly much smaller racks) the price-point as far as land would be interesting. There are not many pay-to-hunt operations here, because no-one could afford the land to do it, let alone find a contiguous parcel.

What about getting in a bulldozer and blasting a bunch of lanes through all that brush to make it more walker-friendly? I know i probably can't properly comprehend the sizes involved, but if a landowner spent a couple days mowing the scrub, in big loops and crossing intersections, i imagine that would be enough distances for a walking guy to spot-stalk for a couple days before retracing his steps. To me, that would be far more interesting hunting that sitting in a stand.

wombat13
October 14, 2010, 01:09 PM
Don't get me wrong, if you're into shooting at deer that have been chummed in to a feeder, i don't have issue with it. I just don't consider it to be fair-chase. Much like shooting in a high-fence; that's like fish in a barrel. To be extreme about it, you might as well shoot up the grocer's meat isle and save yourself some time field-dressing, and mount the styrofoam and shrink-wrap on the wall. What makes a trophy is perception, culture and trend.

I much prefer venison to beef. IMHO, beef is bland, except for the expensive, dry-aged beef (which runs $25 to $36 per lb. in grocery stores in WNY). Farm-raised venison in the "game" case at our grocery store runs $28 per lb. for chops.

For me, the average value of the venison I harvest is probably about $10 per lb. I put 120 lbs of venison in the freezer last year. To do that, I invested about 50 hours of my time, a couple hundred bucks in processing, and maybe a hundred bucks in equipment (if I amortize my equipment purchases over a period of years). That means I "earned" nearly $20 per hour hunting last year and funded my gun/shooting hobby. That's not bad given that I enjoy being outdoors, shooting, and spending time with my buddies.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 14, 2010, 01:52 PM
What about getting in a bulldozer and blasting a bunch of lanes through all that brush to make it more walker-friendly? I know i probably can't properly comprehend the sizes involved, but if a landowner spent a couple days mowing the scrub, in big loops and crossing intersections, i imagine that would be enough distances for a walking guy to spot-stalk for a couple days before retracing his steps. To me, that would be far more interesting hunting that sitting in a stand.

That is done all the time Desi, They are called scendaros (not sure on that spelling so I spelled it phonetically) And if it were not for them being cut, there are many places in Texas that would be IMPOSSIBLE to hunt. To give you an easy picture, In MOST of South Texas, EVERYTHING either cuts, pokes,scratches, bites, stings, or tries to eat you alive. Most areas are impassible by humans. The deer have acclimated to this harsh habitat and thrive in it. But deer have a major flaw in that they are RETARDED when it comes to population. Nature used to have a population control in place with predation but since man, in all of his ignorance, decided to wipe out the majority of predators, deer populations now exceed what the habitat can maintain in many areas. Therein lies the reason for feeding with food plots and feeders. It serves 2 purposes, health of the deer as well as quality racks for hunters, increasing dollars to reinvest back into feeding the deer! Circle of life (and economy).

And like Art (for the umpteenth time), Your AVERAGE high fence facility in Texas exceeds 2000 acres. And is USUALLY some very thick stuff. While I do NOT agree with these little 2 and 300 acre facilities for the purposes of "hunting", let me clue you in on a little something, MOST of the Texas facilities that I have visited are well over 2000 acres and they are BY FAR not easy to hunt. Hell I had a 200 acre wooded area that I had several deer on and hunted one specific deer for 3 years before I finally got to connect on him. If you think hunting on 2000+ acres would be easy just because it is high fenced, PLEASE think again. Most hunters have never hunted areas that large and have no clue but they see "High Fence" and they quickly go to "Easy" in their minds. Nothing could be further from the truth.

kyle1974
October 14, 2010, 02:16 PM
I would venture to say that the vast majority of the deer on my lease never see the fence...

12,000 acres high fenced... almost 19 square miles.

but I guess it's like shooting fish in a barrel, because there is an 8 foot fence. the deer have ABSOLUTEY no where to go!!! (other than the remaining 18.75 square miles.)

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 14, 2010, 02:30 PM
Not to mention that a deers NORMAL habitat is equal to or less than 1 square mile and that is with a rutting buck out cruising for doe! And yes there are exceptions to that rule as with any rule, but the NORM is around 1 sq. mile.

kyle1974
October 14, 2010, 03:15 PM
I'm not sure if this will show up. you think it's wide open in south texas? look at the cactus thorns all over this guy. This is very common to see, although for some reason it looks like this dude rolled around in the cactus

We do regular helicopter surveys every year, which is when we see the bigger deer.

the old, big bucks usually do not come to the feeders. this deer is a 3.5 year old... still a baby.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd241/kep150/CDY_0039.jpg



http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd241/kep150/photo.jpg

FLAvalanche
October 14, 2010, 04:14 PM
When are we as hunters going to get past judging other hunters for using legal means to harvest animals?

Never.

The grizzly bear stands at the top of the falls and lets the salmon leap into his mouth and we don't criticize the grizzly. But set up a deer feeder...

I've said it too many times here so I'm going to try it once more for the hard of skull:

Until you drop naked from a tree onto the back of your prey you have absolutely no business commenting on how I hunt.

Everything you do beyond dropping naked from a tree is using something to your advantage or using a weakness of the animal against itself.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 14, 2010, 04:30 PM
this deer is a 3.5 year old... still a baby.

That "Baby" would be some mighty fine eating too! Past 3.5 and they are pretty much Burger and Sausage meat as far as bucks go. Dem Der Horns on that "baby" would make an awful purdy hat rack too!

desidog
October 14, 2010, 04:30 PM
FLAavalanche: I would drop naked, or more probably in cargo shorts, from a tree...but that is illegal here. Probably there too.

If you don't want to discuss your hunting and have trouble with criticism, Don't post about it.

From this thread I've deduced that there are large regional differences from guys armed similarly and going after the same quarry. This means we don't all think alike. Don't take it personally that other people have different hunting ethics than you do, and voice their opinions freely. That's why 1A comes before 2A, and what makes discussions interesting.

kyle1974
October 14, 2010, 04:33 PM
That "Baby" would be some mighty fine eating too! Past 3.5 and they are pretty much Burger and Sausage meat as far as bucks go. Dem Der Horns on that "baby" would make an awful purdy hat rack too!

but if you shoot them at 3.5, they will never look like the one below that one.

Leaky Waders
October 14, 2010, 04:33 PM
"To make it truly fair for the animal, take your accordian & bathe in High Karate before your hike into the wild." Has me literally LOL!

That is an awesome buckI! I'm no expert but I think that the family coinicidence isn't just coincidence...it's more likely wise game management and good hunting skills.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 14, 2010, 05:12 PM
but if you shoot them at 3.5, they will never look like the one below that one.

Well unless I am managing a property and trying to get my herd buck to doe ratio I could really care less about the rack size personally. My Trophy days have come and gone. I'd just rather have the meat from a good younger buck or fat doe.

Art Eatman
October 14, 2010, 06:40 PM
Remington got its rifle name from the Texas sendero. Generally, jeep-trail roadways through the brush so you can get out and check windmills, livestock, and access around the pastures. There is generally a fenceline road so it can be checked halfway regularly--whether high fence or four-strand barbed wire or sheep/goat wire.

I mentioned the screw worm fly, earlier. It lays its eggs in any open wound, even a mere scratch. After hatching, the larva begin eating. Eradication was by sterilization of male flies via radiation. Millions of sterile males were dropped from airplanes all across Texas. This began in the early 1950s.

Prior to then, livestock losses were a problem. All during the war, I helped my grandfather doctor the calves; the umbilical cord...Dehorning and castration also led to screw worm infestations. I lost a registered Hereford calf to the (bleep) things in 1949. (Nowadays, good old Peerless Screw Worm Killer is a "hazardous substance".)

And any deer that even merely got a scratch was a dead deer.

The screw worm fly was the ultimate predator, with no respect for man or any wild or domestic animal...

ZeroJunk
October 14, 2010, 08:48 PM
I'd just rather have the meat from a good younger buck or fat doe.


There is another side to that coin in many parts of the country. In this area I can literally kill a deer of some sort within a half hour after daylight on the opening day. If not for trying to get a good buck there would not be much to hunting.

Beautiful Texas buck BTW.

AKElroy
October 14, 2010, 08:55 PM
Until you drop naked from a tree onto the back of your prey you have absolutely no business commenting on how I hunt.

The tree is cheating.

nmlongbow
October 15, 2010, 12:35 AM
That buck has a huge NT rack!

The most interesting and surprising part of the father and son holding 1st and 2nd place is that they took these animals for themselves instead of letting a paying hunter pay the big $$.

This is just another high fence operation and these bucks likely have a good bit of science behind those racks. What are the odds of the 2 biggest bucks coming off the same small ranch without some help?

FLAvalanche
October 15, 2010, 10:59 AM
Don't take it personally that other people have different hunting ethics than you do, and voice their opinions freely.

Sorry but I'm tired of people telling me what I do is wrong and isn't "sporting". I don't comment on their method of hunting. I don't tell them what they're doing is wrong and isn't sporting. I don't look down my nose at them.

And I'll also voice my opinion accordingly.

Art Eatman
October 15, 2010, 12:27 PM
XD, always remember that the primary purpose of a high fence is to keep other deer out. You improve a pasture via reintroduction of more native vegetation and less introduced vegetation, improve the water supply, and you create a smorgasbord for every other deer in the county to come to dinner. Gotta control the numbers to maintain the habitat. The high fence lets you control the population density. For a given area, regardless of size, control of any sort of herbivorous herd relies on either a fence or predation. Since there's no significant predation...

You don't need genetic modification to have big bucks. Low density, good food supply and a control on which bucks get shot lets big young bucks become Omigawd fully-mature bucks.

Looks to me (to some extent) that genetic modification for deer works sorta the same way as it has for pulpwood pine: Bigger, faster. IOW, "bragging rights" horns on younger deer than natural process would allow. Just guessing, of course.

kyle1974
October 15, 2010, 12:32 PM
it's primarily about the age.... if you don't let the deer get old, you will rarely shoot big deer.

I bet there are places all over the country that have the potential to have huge deer, but the vast majority of the bucks are shot before they are 2 years old. it's a shame.

ZeroJunk
October 15, 2010, 01:33 PM
IMO, there is a lot of genetic variation within the species from one part of the continent to another. Even within a state.

N.C. deer for instance have hundreds of thousands of acres of soybeans and grain to munch on yet they seldom get past 160 inches. They aren't all killed young. I have seen some deer get up toward 160 and then start going backwards here, and I thought I was feeding them pretty good. Saskatchewan deer can go 300 pounds, yet it would be hard to find anything in their diet there to explain it. Some think body temperature explains it with a heavy body in Fl. being a negative and a heavy body in Canada being a positive thing.

Although there is no doubt that food source and age are part of it, I just don't believe it's all of it.

Justin Holder
October 15, 2010, 03:09 PM
I'll believe that's a wild 100% natural deer when my poo turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet! :neener:

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 15, 2010, 03:31 PM
it's primarily about the age.... if you don't let the deer get old, you will rarely shoot big deer.

I bet there are places all over the country that have the potential to have huge deer, but the vast majority of the bucks are shot before they are 2 years old. it's a shame

Kyle, some of the biggest bucks in the country come from right here in Illinois, yet the average buck killed here is 2.5!!! You see a 5 year old buck here, you have seen a RARE animal.

wombat13
October 15, 2010, 03:32 PM
IMO, there is a lot of genetic variation within the species from one part of the continent to another. Even within a state.

N.C. deer for instance have hundreds of thousands of acres of soybeans and grain to munch on yet they seldom get past 160 inches. They aren't all killed young. I have seen some deer get up toward 160 and then start going backwards here, and I thought I was feeding them pretty good. Saskatchewan deer can go 300 pounds, yet it would be hard to find anything in their diet there to explain it. Some think body temperature explains it with a heavy body in Fl. being a negative and a heavy body in Canada being a positive thing.

Although there is no doubt that food source and age are part of it, I just don't believe it's all of it.
Yes, there is considerable genetic variation in U.S. whitetails. Here is a little reading you might find interesting:

http://www.whitetailsunlimited.com/i/p/bk_distribution.pdf

buck460XVR
October 15, 2010, 04:36 PM
it's primarily about the age.... if you don't let the deer get old, you will rarely shoot big deer.

It's also about nutrition. It takes lots of minerals to make a rack like that, minerals that naturally in many places are not available in enough quantity for bucks to make their potential. Also in nature, big bucks like that spend the majority of their time during the season of plenty chasing does and defending their territory instead of eating. Come the season of little, they suffer. Feeders and supplemental feeding help these bruins recover after the breeding season so they start growing next years antlers without being stressed. In nature, racks like that one are rare, because of available food, minerals, breeding activity and weather. Nowadays with supplemental feeding and management these types of deer are becoming more common, thus the reason two monsters came from the same ranch...yes genetics played a part, but so did the feed and management. Without it, the odds of one of those deer, much less two, anywhere, would be virtually nil.

I bet there are places all over the country that have the potential to have huge deer, but the vast majority of the bucks are shot before they are 2 years old. it's a shame.

Very true, especially with supplemental feeding and managing populations and age so bucks with good genetics can reach their potential. This really isn't about feeders or baiting...it's about money. In order to raise deer like this or to have others raise them for you to shoot, high fence or no fence, it takes money. It used to be, when deer weren't fed and predators and hungry humans killed every one they could(the younger, the better eating), only the best of hunters or the luckiest guy in the county got trophy deer. Now, it only takes a fat wallet to shoot a big buck.

kyle1974
October 15, 2010, 05:18 PM
just imagine how big those deer in illinois would be if they lived to be 5 or 6!

yes, it's also about food, nutrition genetics... everything. You can't just put up a fence and expect to have 300 inch deer in a few years. my lease has been high fenced for 30 something years, and we've never killed a 300 inch deer off it. I think the biggest that has been killed is about 215. Of course, there is no breeding, no genetic manipulation other than culling/managing, etc.

There is a video of that deer that shows it from 2 years to 7 years. you can see how the antlers progress according to how much rainfall (i.e. how high the grass is) from year to year.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 15, 2010, 05:39 PM
Kyle, whenever you need a couple of management doe hunts done gimmi a yell. Be more than happy to assist. I rarely hunt here in Illinois since I've lived here. Too many hoops to jump through getting your tags and such. I miss PA!!!!!!! And Tn!!!!! I love living primarily on wild game and hunt for meat. I have yet to see a rack even make good soup!!! Got plenty hanging on the wall from my youth and could care less about racks. Just always looking for a good meat hunt.

nmlongbow
October 15, 2010, 09:13 PM
Art,

Don't fool yourself. The high fence might be used to keep other animals out (especially predators) but the main reason is to grow big deer and charge people to hunt an area where the animals can't escape.

I'm sure the landowners spend a lot of money feeding and watering these deer. They surely don't want someone else shooting these animals after that investment.

It's not that different than cattle ranching and it usually pays more.

HGUNHNTR
October 15, 2010, 09:53 PM
Sorry but I'm tired of people telling me what I do is wrong and isn't "sporting". I don't comment on their method of hunting. I don't tell them what they're doing is wrong and isn't sporting. I don't look down my nose at them.

And I'll also voice my opinion accordingly.

That blade cuts both ways, the opportuniyt to have civil discourse it what this forum is all about.

Ike R
October 16, 2010, 05:28 PM
Too put it respectfully as I once said to a fellow FFA member from Delaware at National Convention 12 years ago, "The County I hunt in down in Texas is bigger than your whole state, yal come on down and hunt sometimes"

He did my freshman year of college, brought his Dad with him for a week, we went to Bandara, Texas. Didn't see any deer we shot 4 emu, two Javalina, a trophy class black buck and a nice boar hog. Niether could believe the density of the thickets down there, or the fact that the Hunting club I was a member of had over 14 thousand acres, 10 different Lodges, and that all of the water on it was from huge Stock tanks primed by windmills. We didn't hunt on feeders, the year was dry so we hunted the stock tanks and shot them as they came to water, though we where feeding them in other places.

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