Speedway is anti gun


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TWeatherford
October 13, 2010, 09:30 PM
Was headed into my local Speedway (a gas station chain for those that don't have them in their area) and noticed a small sign stating "Firearms and other deadly weapons are strictly prohibited on these premises." So I sent them an email and it is below.

I've been in there many times before and never noticed the sign, although I'm always scanning for them. I'm 99% sure I've OC'd in there and didn't have a problem. Anyway, they won't be receiving my business anymore. If anyone wants to send them an email I recommend using the form available at http://www.speedway.com/ContactUs/EmailUs.aspx

Hello,
I was entering my local Speedway this evening and noticed a
small sign stating "Firearms and other deadly weapons are strictly
prohibited on these premises."

Is this a corporate policy or the rule of this individual store?

Thank You,
xxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Dear xxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxx,

This is an acknowledgement of your E-mail. It is a companywide policy
that firearms and other deadly weapons are prohibited at our Speedway
SuperAmerica locations.

Thank you for taking the time to write us. We are always interested in
hearing from our customers whatever the reason.

Sincerely,
Sarah
Speedway SuperAmerica LLC Customer Service

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FIVETWOSEVEN
October 13, 2010, 09:40 PM
Who needs security when a sign stops all criminals? Why don't they say crime is prohibted? That'll work right?

Knotthead
October 13, 2010, 09:40 PM
Thanks for pointing that out. While the sign carries no legal weight in KY, they will receive no more of my business and I will not have to waste my time stopping there.

edited to add: Have sent and email asking if this is true. Will report any response.

writerinmo
October 13, 2010, 09:42 PM
An email stating that to them might be in order. Might not do any good, but keeping silent on it certainly won't either. I'll send them one stating my position, even though I am far away from any, not like the email has a "return address" in the upper left.

TexasRifleman
October 13, 2010, 09:47 PM
One thing to keep in mind. Some states have a specific sign that carries legal weight and other signs have no meaning.

It's entirely possible that the Speedway KNOWS this and has made the decision to put up the non legally binding signs on purpose.

I have a friend here in Ft Worth who has the "No Guns" signs in his jewelry store, to appease the soccer moms.

He knows all too well that the sign means nothing to lawful CHL holders and he welcomes them. We simply ignore the sign.

If asked publicly he would say the same "Guns are not welcome here", but he knows the whole time that CHL holders can and (maybe) will ignore that.

May not be the best business decision but it's at least possible.

MattTheHat
October 13, 2010, 09:55 PM
friend here in Ft Worth who has the "No Guns" signs in his jewelry store, to appease the soccer moms.

Sounds strange. Maybe his customers are much different than mine, but in over 30 years I've never had a customer indicate any preference as to whether or not a gun policy was posted. If they did, they'd be invited to leave, for their own peace of mind.


-Matt

Caliper_RWVA
October 13, 2010, 10:42 PM
"and other deadly weapons"

What? Like cars? :scrutiny:

or tire irons?

Do they sell knives inside? :evil:

TexasRifleman
October 13, 2010, 10:48 PM
aybe his customers are much different than mine, but in over 30 years I've never had a customer indicate any preference as to whether or not a gun policy was posted.

At one time he had a "Concealed Handguns Welcome" sign and it caused some grief so he went, in my opinion, too far in the other direction.

Better to leave it unspoken completely.

But, bottom line is it's always possible these kinds of signs with no legal weight are there intentionally and not necessarily an indicator of anti. Likely? Probably not, but possible.

InkEd
October 13, 2010, 10:54 PM
Some companies (usually larger ones) post those signs to appease their insurance companies.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 13, 2010, 10:54 PM
Ok please pardon me if I sound completely retarded here, But do not most states have it to where if you are on PRIVATE property (Yes even stores are considered private property) that you as, a CCW holder, have to abide by THEIR RULES and if you don't then they CAN take legal action against you, if caught that is? I mean I do personally think it's retarded myself, but I do know that in some states, if you walk into someones home armed and refused to disarm then they can file some sort of charges. Now granted that example is to the extreme, but you get the point I imagine. Just trying to straighten things out in my head on the legalities. I guess my point is this, It is THEIR property. Just because you do not agree with their policies and you are a CCW holder, that does NOT give you the right to enter a Posted No Guns property. Look at it this way, If you did not want some stranger entering your home armed, how would you feel if someone said the SAME thing some of you folks are saying and doing? Just because that sign has no "legal" weight, does NOT give you the right to enter that persons PRIVATE property armed against his/her wishes. I see some of you guys always saying basically "Screw that sign Ill carry wherever I damn well want to" and THAT right there is a VERY poor attitude. YOU have the choice there, abide by their wishes and do not enter their PRIVATE PROPERTY armed or shop elsewhere.

MattTheHat
October 13, 2010, 11:11 PM
At one time he had a "Concealed Handguns Welcome" sign and it caused some grief so he went, in my opinion, too far in the other direction.

Better to leave it unspoken completely.

Ah, okay, I get it now.


-Matt

Erik M
October 13, 2010, 11:24 PM
I feel your pain. I had to take my wife to a doctors appointment and the clinic we visited had a sign stating that concealed weapons were against the beliefs of the property owners. Anti's turn up in the most mundane places.

TexasRifleman
October 13, 2010, 11:29 PM
k please pardon me if I sound completely retarded here, But do not most states have it to where if you are on PRIVATE property (Yes even stores are considered private property) that you as, a CCW holder, have to abide by THEIR RULES and if you don't then they CAN take legal action against you, if caught that is?

Yes but in many states the laws have very specific requirements as to the wording of the signs before they have any meaning.

Texas for example, where I am, the signs have to be in a very specific wording, with the letters of a very specific size, etc.

A sign that does not exactly meet the specifications in the law may be ignored.

It's up to the property owner to make sure they have the right signs. So, sometimes when you see a sign that doesn't meet the law you have to wonder if that was intentional and I'm aware of several around here that the property owner absolutely intends to NOT ban those with a permit but still has some kind of "no guns" sign for other purposes, political or insurance or whatever the case may be.

basicblur
October 13, 2010, 11:36 PM
do not most states have it to where if you are on PRIVATE property (Yes even stores are considered private property) that you as, a CCW holder, have to abide by THEIR RULES and if you don't then they CAN take legal action against you
In VA (like many states), if the owner posts, you can't carry, but the sign does not carry the weight of law. If you carry, are discovered and asked to leave, you can either do so, or they can call the law on you and have you arrested for trespassing (not a weapons violation).

Not going to get into the private property argument, but there are those (myself included) that think there is a BIG difference between home/landowners etc. setting rules for their property, and a business that invites the public at large in (even though it is still private property).

I think Judge Napolitano covered it nicely (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP1Wgkh5MeE).

CajunBass
October 14, 2010, 06:41 AM
Most of the time these signs are not "anti-gun". The store/owners probably don't care two hoots in Hades about guns, one way or the other. They're "anti-liability." They put up a sign and if a gun battle happens to break out, the store can point to the sign and say..."See, it's not our fault. We told them not to bring guns here."

Gouranga
October 14, 2010, 07:27 AM
LMAO. There was one 2 lots down from one of the local gun stores that did the same thing. They got robbed by armed thugs about every other week when they put the sign up. After 3 months, they took it down and have not been robbed since.

With a gas station in particular it is retarded to advertise yourself as a soft target.

foghornl
October 14, 2010, 07:36 AM
I haven't seen the postings on the Speedways I visit here in NE Ohio, but i'll be looking....

Double Naught Spy
October 14, 2010, 08:23 AM
Who needs security when a sign stops all criminals? Why don't they say crime is prohibted? That'll work right?

The signs have nothing to do with stopping criminals. I am continually amazed by the number of pro-gun folks who cannot comprehend this notion. As noted, it does pertain to liability. If somebody is hurt by a gun that is allowed to be carried on the property, then the business may be held liable for allowing it. If there is a prohibition against guns then they are less likely to be held liable. Think back to the various stories we read over the last few years of people carrying guns and having NDs in public, of which some have resulted in injuries.

As TR noted, these policies are sometimes by formality only or the posted signs are such to have no legal value as to penal code.

Gouranga
October 14, 2010, 08:56 AM
Quote:
Who needs security when a sign stops all criminals? Why don't they say crime is prohibted? That'll work right?
The signs have nothing to do with stopping criminals. I am continually amazed by the number of pro-gun folks who cannot comprehend this notion. As noted, it does pertain to liability. If somebody is hurt by a gun that is allowed to be carried on the property, then the business may be held liable for allowing it. If there is a prohibition against guns then they are less likely to be held liable. Think back to the various stories we read over the last few years of people carrying guns and having NDs in public, of which some have resulted in injuries.

As TR noted, these policies are sometimes by formality only or the posted signs are such to have no legal value as to penal code

I understand what you are saying but the sad thought about this...if I put my car into drive instead of Reverse and drive through the side of the Speedway and run down 3 patrons, is Speedway liable because they did not ban cars in their parking lot? If I drop a key chain carrying OC spray and it has a 1 in a 100 landing and goes off injuring everyone in the store will the store be sued because they did not ban OC spray? Same notion, IMO, same liability. In reality would the court see them an equivalent arguments, depends on the court I reckon, but still a retarded notion. If I misuse an item (Gun, OC spray, car, etc) and injure someone, then it is my fault not a gas stations. But then again, cars, OC spray is inanimate while guns are evil, blood thirsty and self aware, waiting to harm all living people except those who wield them.

cleardiddion
October 14, 2010, 09:27 AM
Glad they don't have any idea that vehicles can be weapons also.
Boy, next thing you know, they'll be posting 'This is not a drivethrough' on the front door since not everyone knows that putting a motor vehicle through a building is considered inapproperiate behavior.

I feel like I should unofficially boycott them but considering that the whole college thing is like hemorrhaging money, it's kinda a necessary evil to go there around these parts.
However, it is one of the more sketchy gas stations around so I'll continue to carry, thank you very much.

Average Joe
October 14, 2010, 05:48 PM
A sign ? If they put up a sign, that said " Robberies not permitted on these premises"
Would the criminals obey ? Just ignore it, and go on with your business.

Packman
October 14, 2010, 05:53 PM
I really hope to have my own business one day. If I do, I'm going to put up a sign in the front window.

"Crime is strictly forbidden on these premises. Thank you for your cooperation."

daorhgih
October 14, 2010, 06:26 PM
Let us follow FfiI 's logic:
"" Ok please pardon me if I sound completely retarded here, But do not most states have it to where if you are on PRIVATE property (Yes even stores are considered private property) that you as, a CCW holder, have to abide by THEIR RULES and if you don't then they CAN take legal action against you, Just because that sign has no "legal" weight, does NOT give you the right to enter that persons PRIVATE property armed against his/her wishes.[[let me interject that MY constitutional rights accompany me everywhere, and in some case the precede me]]] I see some of you guys always saying basically "Screw that sign Ill carry wherever I damn well want to" and THAT right there is a VERY poor attitude. YOU have the choice there, abide by their wishes and do not enter their PRIVATE PROPERTY armed or shop elsewhere. ""
Do you mean then, sorta like, "No blacks allowed in this establishment" signs?? No, wait -- that's a Civil Right, isn't it? No, it isn't ... "Civil Rights" are not in the Constitution, and they mean whatever TSCOTUS says they mean. But to carry -- "keep and BEAR", IS a Constitutional right. With few noted exceptions.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 14, 2010, 07:19 PM
daorhgih, I guess you failed to notice that I DID say I think these signs are retarded. But there is also a little sign in 99% of businesses that really has a major input in this discussion. MANAGEMENT RESERVES THE "RIGHT" TO REFUSE SERVICE TO ANYONE Now according to what that judge says, since your business is open to the public that business owners MUST let CCW carriers in their establishment. Sorry but that is SO incorrect it's not even funny. As a business owner, I have the right to say no to any damn body I want to and if I don't want guns in my store then by God I don't have to. My damn property, my damn rules. Don't freaking like it, don't freaking shop there. Plain and simple. Basically what some of you are trying to say is, YOUR freedoms are more important than MY FREEDOMS. Your "right" to carry supersedes my "right" to freely conduct business on my own property? Sorry buddy but your argument holds no water. WE as gun owners need to set an example or we will not be able to have our beloved weapons. Trampling others rights just because we do not agree with them is by far NOT setting that example.

BlkHawk73
October 14, 2010, 07:23 PM
To those that turn their backs on business that don't allow firearms...can you carry at work?

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 14, 2010, 07:38 PM
Thankyou BlkHawk, very good point. How many of you folks tell your boss "to hell with what you want on YOUR property Ill carry wherever I damn well please because I have the 2a on my side" NONE thats how many!!! Now granted I DO see your points plainly and clearly, and agree with them for the MOST PART. What I do NOT agree with is some of you folks snubbing your nose at OTHERS rights in favor of you carrying. Again I'll say it, if I don't want someone carrying a weapon in my business I have EVERY right to turn them away. Plain and simple, and no soapbox standing judge will be able to change my mind about that.

Now with all that being said, I don't turn away legally carrying folks nor would I. I am stressing the point that I DO have EVERY legal right to do so just as you have EVERY legal right to not shop there!

basicblur
October 14, 2010, 07:48 PM
As a business owner, I have the right to say no to any damn body I want to and if I don't want guns in my store then by God I don't have to. My damn property, my damn rules.
Somehow I just knew you were a business owner... :banghead:

And despite what Napolitano says (although I think he hit the nail on the head), I might agree with you if you were to open your business out in the sticks on your own land, not taking advantage of the services paid for by taxpayers (roads, traffic control, fire protection, etc).

If you open your business to the public at large in an area where you are afforded the benefits of taxpayer funded services in order that your business may thrive...not so much.

basicblur
October 14, 2010, 07:59 PM
To those that turn their backs on business that don't allow firearms...can you carry at work?
Well since I worked in a factory (that is NOT open to the general public), no, I could not carry inside the fence (parking lot was OK), and that follows with what the judge said.

Now that I'm retired, I noticed my former employer's local store had a no guns allowed sign on the door. I mentioned it to the store manager, and he told me to ignore it-it was a feel good sign ordered by corporate headquarters.
Probably full of it, but he said half the employees in the back were probably armed. :D

When I need what they sell, I'll probably buy from my former employer based on what the manager said, and the fact the sign means little under VA law.
If the sign carried the weight of law, or if the manager/company was adamant about it, unfortunately, when the time came, I'd be shopping at a competitor's store.

EddieNFL
October 14, 2010, 08:16 PM
The signs have nothing to do with stopping criminals. I am continually amazed by the number of pro-gun folks who cannot comprehend this notion. As noted, it does pertain to liability. If somebody is hurt by a gun that is allowed to be carried on the property, then the business may be held liable for allowing it. If there is a prohibition against guns then they are less likely to be held liable. Think back to the various stories we read over the last few years of people carrying guns and having NDs in public, of which some have resulted in injuries.

As TR noted, these policies are sometimes by formality only or the posted signs are such to have no legal value as to penal code.

It has nothing to do with comprehension. Most honest people that work for a living don't think like lawyers or slackers looking for a windfall settlement.

sohcgt2
October 14, 2010, 08:19 PM
I understand what you are saying but the sad thought about this...if I put my car into drive instead of Reverse and drive through the side of the Speedway and run down 3 patrons, is Speedway liable because they did not ban cars in their parking lot? If I drop a key chain carrying OC spray and it has a 1 in a 100 landing and goes off injuring everyone in the store will the store be sued because they did not ban OC spray? Same notion, IMO, same liability.


Several years ago a lady sued a store and won over $1M because she tripped and fell... over her own kid. What was your question about liability again?

EddieNFL
October 14, 2010, 08:24 PM
Several years ago a lady sued a store and won over $1M because she tripped and fell... over her own kid. What was your question about liability again?
What sign would you post to protect yourself?

Knotthead
October 14, 2010, 08:45 PM
I received this reply:

October 14, 2010

Dear Mr. ******,

This is an acknowledgement of your E-mail with regard to our company
firearms policy. While Speedway SuperAmerica respects your right to bare
arms we must also comply with Ohio Law. Speedway SuperAmerica does not
prohibit customers from legally carrying concealed weapons in our stores
that do not possess a "D Permit" liquor license.

We currently have 10 stores located in Ohio that do have "D Permits".
Concealed firearms are banned by law in premises for which a D permit
has been issued.

Thank you for taking the time to write us. We are always interested in
hearing from our customers whatever the reason.


Sincerely,
Ron
Speedway SuperAmerica LLC Customer Service

Somewhat different from the response in the OP, which I assumed was in reference to a store in KY. This response references OH, so I am considering requesting clarification, as I am in KY.

Iam2taz
October 14, 2010, 09:10 PM
Bottom line for me is that if you post a sign saying that I can't have a weapon on your premisis, I am going to do my best to do what you want. I will take my business elsewhere if at all possilbe.
P.S. Don't let anyone tell you the insurance company said that they had to post the sign. I work for and have worked some of the biggest P&C companies in the US and never required anyone to post such a sign for liability reasons. We have had to ask them not to have a gun on a premisis when the owner was not there. In other words, if you the owner, wants to have a gun on the premisis, I don't care. I may ask about licensing to make sure you have knowledge, but that is about it. If I pushed it farther than that, I wouldn't write any commercial business!

Ole Coot
October 15, 2010, 10:04 AM
I haven't seen any signs in my part of WV or KY. Maybe I haven't looked. I have seen open carry in WalMart in KY, no problem. I had to make a trip to the local ER while out. My wife simply asked the guard if he could secure my carry 45 and no problem. It was waiting for me when I was released, this was in WV. I carry always as we have a problem with coyotes and my little beagle would make a nice snack. I, nor anyone I know that carries has ever had a problem. I do like this part of the ole USA.

CoRoMo
October 15, 2010, 10:09 AM
How else are they supposed to prevent armed robberies of their stores?

;)

Double Naught Spy
October 15, 2010, 10:51 AM
It has nothing to do with comprehension. Most honest people that work for a living don't think like lawyers or slackers looking for a windfall settlement.

Okay, so some don't think like lawyers, but apparently they think like criminals as they continually argue how the sign won't stop criminals. Many apparently do think like lawyers as they claim how their rights are being violated and how property rights do not supercede individual rights. Your hardworking nonlawyers and slackers apparently don't think things through from the perspective of the business either.

Regardless of the excuse, they aren't comprehending the purpose the sign serves the business.

Iam2taz
October 15, 2010, 06:37 PM
Wrote a nice note to Speedway. The nice lady responded with the following:
Dear xxx,
This is an acknowledgement of your E-mail with regard to our company
firearms policy. While Speedway SuperAmerica respects your right to bare
arms we must also comply with Ohio Law. Speedway SuperAmerica does not
prohibit customers from legally carrying concealed weapons in our stores
that do not possess a "D Permit" liquor license.

We currently have 10 stores located in Ohio that do have "D Permits".
Concealed firearms are banned by law in premises for which a D permit
has been issued.

Thank you for taking the time to write us. We are always interested in
hearing from our customers whatever the reason.


Sincerely,
Linda
Speedway SuperAmerica LLC Customer Service

For me, that is the end of the story... If Ohio law is the reason, then I can't argue with the sign. She says, Speedway respects our right to bear arms.
I like it when they talk that way....:p

P.S. Doesn't mean that I will shop there in OH or if I have to that I won't be carrying concealed.

Average Joe
October 15, 2010, 07:00 PM
Posted sign or no sign, my gun is concealed, and you will never know I have it.
I consider my right to carry and protect myself more important than a sign.

danprkr
October 15, 2010, 07:20 PM
Some companies (usually larger ones) post those signs to appease their insurance companies.

True, I was always amused that when I worked at 7-11 they had a very strict no weapons policy, but then as the cop who urged me to be armed pointed out my uniform was a smock under which I could have concealed a small rocket launcher. :evil:

Had to pull once at that job, but never had to fire. Thankfully I'm much older and wiser now, but the irony still amuses me from time to time.

EddieNFL
October 15, 2010, 08:19 PM
Disregard

EddieNFL
October 15, 2010, 08:25 PM
Regardless of the excuse, they aren't comprehending the purpose the sign serves the business.

Which purpose?

1) Alienate a certain group?
2) Make another group "feel" safe?
3) Make a political statement?
4) Make their business a target?
5) Satisfy an insurance requirement (highly doubtful)?
6) Protection from lawsuits (not even)?

I suspect number three is by far the most correct answer.

stickhauler
October 16, 2010, 01:36 AM
Speedway is playing fast and loose with the rules. Ohio law specifies that carry into a establishment with a "D" license is banned if anyone is consuming in the establishment, it's legal if there are no persons consuming alcohol.

Refer to page 12 in the PDF file on this link:

http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/files/Publications/Publications-for-Law-Enforcement/Concealed-Carry-Publications/2009-Concealed-Carry-Laws-Booklet.aspx

evan price
October 16, 2010, 02:22 AM
Concealed means concealed. It's a no brainer.

sohcgt2
October 16, 2010, 10:17 AM
What sign would you post to protect yourself?


I suppose a sign made of armour plate might help protect, but I usually rely on situational awareness to protect myself and my family. The signs just reduce the liability I have for the stupid actions of others.

bobbo
October 16, 2010, 01:42 PM
Somehow I just knew you were a business owner...

And despite what Napolitano says (although I think he hit the nail on the head), I might agree with you if you were to open your business out in the sticks on your own land, not taking advantage of the services paid for by taxpayers (roads, traffic control, fire protection, etc).

If you open your business to the public at large in an area where you are afforded the benefits of taxpayer funded services in order that your business may thrive...not so much.

So, what you are saying is even though this person owns a business, they have to allow guns because they are near a road?

Give you a hint: businesses pay higher taxes than most people. They collect sales taxes that otherwise would not be generated. They pay property taxes which are, in the vast majority of cases, much higher than on residential areas. They have to deal with zoning fees, inspections, and all sorts of other hidden taxes and fees. They pay for fire protection just like everyone else.

Therefore, they have more invested in the community than someone who runs a shop out of their home. Ergo, they have the same right, by your logic, to do whatever the bloody hell they please on their own property.

But then again, using public services has no bearing on the rights of individual property owners, so once again, property owners can do whatever they want within the law.

And NO, your right to carry a gun does not supersede someone else's right to conduct a legal, tax-paying business the way they wish.

If you don't like it, go somewhere else, or carry concealed and don't brag about it.

No, I'm not a business owner. I know how it works, though.

basicblur
October 16, 2010, 03:19 PM
Give you a hint: businesses pay higher taxes than most people.
Major snippage for the rest of it...

Businesses are also granted concessions not afforded the individual-we have a major scandal in our neck o' the woods 'bout a business being granted huge concessions-our former city manager should be prosecuted over it, but he's probably just moved on somewhere else to pull the same stunt again.

'Course, local residents will be the ones who end up picking up the tab for the overly generous concessions granted, which will more than likely never be made up for by revenues generated by said business. Heck, there's a chance they may not stick around very long, which means they will have taken the money and run, and everyday citizens will pay to clean up the mess.

That door swings both ways...

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 16, 2010, 03:29 PM
Well basic, last year I paid well over 100k in taxes, over 10k in licenses and fees and insurance, lord only knows how much in sales taxes id have to go over the books (something else I contribute to my community, I pay an accountant) I employ 26 people so I pay unemployment insurance. I pay more in taxes than the average person in this town makes! So do not sit there in your lazyboy and attempt to dictate to me what I can and cannot do in my OWN business because you paid a whopping 1500 in state taxes that go for the roads!!! If I say no firearms in my shop then by God I mean no firearms in my shop and I have every legal right to do so as does ANYONE ELSE! I've said it time and time again, it is people with the "I don't give a damn what you want Ill carry in YOUR store or property if I want to" attitude that cause more problems than solutions!!! Change your attitudes, and you may find that things will change to the better with that!

basicblur
October 16, 2010, 03:35 PM
Change your attitudes
Well I think one can read my reasoned posts (not that they may agree with 'em) and some others from folks that need to settle a bit, then decide who has an attitude? :scrutiny:

trex1310
October 16, 2010, 04:15 PM
I just carry concealed and don't talk about it.

TexasBill
October 17, 2010, 05:49 AM
Have to agree with the ol' Freedom Fighter. IMHO, "my house, my rules" extends to a business that I own and operate. OTOH, it might be interesting, in a state that allows it, to obey the sign and open carry. You're not carrying concealed, so you're not violating company policy. That might confuse the cashier and if they call the cops, you can explain to them that you are, in fact, abiding by the posted policy and are not carrying a concealed weapon.

EddieNFL
October 17, 2010, 08:58 AM
Well basic, last year I paid well over 100k in taxes, over 10k in licenses and fees and insurance, lord only knows how much in sales taxes id have to go over the books (something else I contribute to my community, I pay an accountant) I employ 26 people so I pay unemployment insurance. I pay more in taxes than the average person in this town makes! So do not sit there in your lazyboy and attempt to dictate to me what I can and cannot do in my OWN business because you paid a whopping 1500 in state taxes that go for the roads!!! If I say no firearms in my shop then by God I mean no firearms in my shop and I have every legal right to do so as does ANYONE ELSE! I've said it time and time again, it is people with the "I don't give a damn what you want Ill carry in YOUR store or property if I want to" attitude that cause more problems than solutions!!! Change your attitudes, and you may find that things will change to the better with that!
How would you handle the situation if you caught someone carrying in you place of business?

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 17, 2010, 11:52 AM
Eddie I am not against it personally. Of course here in the socialist state of Illinois, unless you are law enforcement, you can not carry so either it would be a cop or a bad guy (in this county one in the same for a lot of them). If I were against it, and had posted such, I would politely ask them to vacate my store while armed. AGAIN I am not against carry, hell I am 100% BEHIND it. What I am against is the attitude that some seem to have that THEIR rights are more important than MINE! And some can't seem to get that point in their brains.

Sam1911
October 17, 2010, 12:19 PM
If I say no firearms in my shop then by God I mean no firearms in my shop and I have every legal right to do so as does ANYONE ELSE!

Yup, you have the legal right to ASK.

In fact, you have several choices on how to enforce that request. You may ask those who make it known that they've brought guns into your establishment to leave. If they do not, you can ask the police to charge them with trespassing.

If you buy metal detectors and employ security personnel to screen customers entering your establishment, you can then deny entry to those (righteous OR evil) who don't follow your rules.

In a few states, you can even post your wishes at the door (with a "Gun Buster" sign or whatever) and the law will back up your policy. Then you can actually have the law prosecute anyone you catch violating your company policy. (Personally ... yikes. :eek:)

What you CANNOT do is assume that ANYONE -- either lawfully carrying a weapon for righteous purposes, or unlawfully carrying one for evil purposes -- will follow your rules simply because you said so. You may wish it, but the world often doesn't work the way we might like, and wishing doesn't make it so.

A hint to the wise: those lawful people carrying for righteous purposes are FAR more likely to acquiesce to your request than that other sort -- which to my way of thinking, rather defeats the purpose, no?
Until we get that little problem sorted out ... I'll remain that polite guy who goes about his business while keeping his own counsel on whether to carry a personal defensive sidearm.

BlkHawk73
October 17, 2010, 02:26 PM
So I'll ask again...to those so opposed to doing any business that disallows firearms on their premises...can you carry/possess firearms at your place of employment?

Average Joe
October 17, 2010, 03:33 PM
Don't ask, don't tell.

Ky Larry
October 17, 2010, 03:46 PM
BH73, state law here in Kentucky states that you may carry in your personal vehicle for protection while traveling to and from work. Your weapon must remain locked in your vehicle while you are at work.
Personally, I just ignore the signs. I've never been asked to leave any business because I was packing. If I were asked to leave, I would. If a business doesn't want my money because of my self defense choices, I probably don't need their services or products.

Erik M
October 17, 2010, 06:09 PM
I could care less what business owners "wish". As was stated above, concealed means concealed. What are you doing to do if you dont know I have a weapon on me (legally as far as the state of KY is concerned)

marc223308
October 17, 2010, 08:26 PM
Where I from that is the same as selling out. That is the def. of apease right?

84B20
October 17, 2010, 09:02 PM
I feel your pain. I had to take my wife to a doctors appointment and the clinic we visited had a sign stating that concealed weapons were against the beliefs of the property owners. Anti's turn up in the most mundane places.

Whenever I hear someone say they don't believe in guns I just say to them...

I don't believe in the Tooth Fairy, which of our decisions is based in reality?

MaggiesPapaw
October 17, 2010, 11:13 PM
Consuming alcohol on premise is prohibited in most liquor stores and quick marts. Do you just pop open a can and start drinking regardless of what is "allowed?"
Smoking is prohibited inside most businesses. Do you just light up regardless of what is allowed?

Don't misunderstand. If I'm not going through a metal detector, I'm probably carrying. I don't examine the doors and windows of businesses for signs before entering, but if I see one posted, I'll abide by their wishes/postings and take my business elsewhere. If I were asked to leave (for whatever reason) I'd comply whether or not there was a sign.

I'm amazed at the number of people who are adamant they would/will/do carry regardless, as concealed is concealed, the signs aren't legal, aren't worded properly, etc.
We are gun owners and carriers. We should set the example in being law-abiding. We are (supposedly) part of the most responsible group of people in society. We fight for and defend our right to own and carry firearms, yet some would deny a business owner, be it individual or corporate, the right to regulate what goes on in their place of business.
Even if we disagree with the policies set, we should abide by those policies, or take our business elsewhere, and let the owners know the reason.

Bottom line: The business owner(s) get to make the rules.
You respect my right to set those policies, and I'll respect your right to take your business elsewhere if you disagree with the policies I've set.
You're welcome to bring your gun, as long as you have lawful intentions. You're not welcome if you choose to light up a smoke, pop a top, or curse one of our employees. Violating one of those three gets you asked to leave, and I guarantee we will not be doing business with you.

That said, in our own business I and others will be armed. For the employees not owning a firearm, there's a revolver in the top desk drawer if it is needed.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 17, 2010, 11:23 PM
Glad to see that I am not the only one seeing that trend Maggies. Thought maybe I was going coo coo or something. I was saying the exact same thing. I am all for carry and fully and completely stand behind it 100%. What I, as you, do not agree with is some of these folks THINKING that their right to carry takes precedence over my right to conduct business on MY property. Sorry folks but it doesn't. Not one bit. That Judge is 100% incorrect and I would LOVE to see him attempt that fight in court. NO ONE can tell me that I can or cannot allow carry on MY property be it a business or my home. That is 100% up to 3 people, Me, Myself, and I. Period. Like Mag and I both have said, It is the poor "Ill do it if I want to" attitude that gives us as gunowners a black eye.

lookshigh123
October 17, 2010, 11:41 PM
Anyway, you're great for sure.

Average Joe
October 18, 2010, 06:24 PM
I carry for my personal protection. That said, what if I was in your store, in line to purchase something, and some dude with purple hair, pulls out a gun and says " nobody move, this is a holdup " Wouldn't I feel kinda stupid leaving my gun in the car, just because you don't want it in your store ? My gun is for MY protection, not to make you feel good, by leaving it in the car. Its with me always, and I mean always. Because you never know when a scumbag will appear.

Deltaboy
October 18, 2010, 06:33 PM
Know your states laws and requirements for Signs and if they don't meet code carry anyway.

Sam1911
October 18, 2010, 07:27 PM
...some of these folks THINKING that their right to carry takes precedence over my right to conduct business on MY property.

I think most of us would be very upset and apologetic if our concealed personal sidearm somehow interfered with your right to conduct business.

Fortunately, as mine has never interfered with ANYONE's right -- or ability -- to conduct business on their property or in any other place, we wouldn't have any conflict at all.

That's a happy thought! :)

EddieNFL
October 18, 2010, 08:04 PM
That Judge is 100% incorrect and I would LOVE to see him attempt that fight in court. NO ONE can tell me that I can or cannot allow carry on MY property be it a business or my home. That is 100% up to 3 people, Me, Myself, and I.

I don't know if he is right or wrong. I suspect you would win your case, but not on legal points. Based on what .gov allows and doesn't allow business owners to do, if this were viewed in the same light I believe you would lose. These days we're all about collective rights. I'll bet more than a few home owners in Connecticut never believed their property would be handed over to private developers. Thanks to Souter, we know differently.

Double Naught Spy
October 18, 2010, 09:37 PM
Businesses have lots of rules. Many are there as a formality and they don't necessarily want to have to enforce them or their staffs don't necessarily want to have to enforce them. The Summerlin Costco incident is one such example. They had a policy against guns in the store, apparently no posting (and no posting is required by law in NV), and nothing was ever done about it unless they actually saw a gun on somebody. In other words, those who concealed carry and were actually concealed never had a problem.

MaggiesPapaw
October 18, 2010, 10:26 PM
Maybe its a matter of respect of others rights.
If we are unwilling to respect the rights of others to control what goes into THEIR business, how can we be upset when someone doesn't want to respect OUR right to even own a firearm and/or carry it into places which do allow it?

Hmmm......

Sam1911
October 19, 2010, 07:12 AM
Maybe its a matter of respect of others rights.
If we are unwilling to respect the rights of others ... etcetera.

Yes, we've had that discussion many times here on THR.org.

It seems to come down to a matter of weighting the importance of the rights one person has or perceives to belong to him, versus the rights he/she understands others to have or that he/she feels they should have.

Meaning that I respect your rights to do anything you want as long as your actions do not affect me, and I expect my rights to be respected so long as I do no harm to you.

Said in a more earthy way, "Your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose." :)

If someone wants to carry a gun in my store -- and I see it, know about it, and don't like it -- and/or it is causing a disruption of my business and activities because it is chasing off my customers -- I can refuse them entry or make them leave my store.

However, if it doesn't become common knowledge that the person is armed -- if neither I nor my customers are being in any way affected -- then I can't reasonably restrict that person's entry or continued presence. Unless I'm going to search every customer (with greater negative effects on my business) I don't have any practical way to do that.

Similarly, say I have strict moral standards and it is against my beliefs to be in the presence of certain items or materials that might impugn or damage my righteousness. I may restrict someone from drinking in my store -- or from pulling out an adult magazine and reading it in front of me and my customers. In fact, I can even post a sign on my door that says such items are prohibited. However, I can't actually enforce my desires on that front unless I'm going to search everyone to make sure they don't have a hip flask or a rolled-up "Playdude" magazine in their pocket.

Again, it comes down to the effect one's actions have on another. Not to some ephemeral concept of proximity to an object.

From the other person's point of view -- you have a right to ask that I not do things which affect you, but not to ask that I restrict my activities in matters that do not affect you, or that unreasonably do affect me.

The Bushmaster
October 19, 2010, 10:16 AM
I just received an e-mail from Speedway. They are stating that they don't have an anti-concealed carry policy in their stores except in Ohio where they have to have a "D" liquor permit to sell alcholic beverages. State law it seems. I don't know about other stores in other states.

Nice e-mail from Linda ByTheWay.

MaggiesPapaw
October 19, 2010, 09:44 PM
>>>>Similarly, say I have strict moral standards and it is against my beliefs to be in the presence of certain items or materials that might impugn or damage my righteousness. I may restrict someone from drinking in my store -- or from pulling out an adult magazine and reading it in front of me and my customers. In fact, I can even post a sign on my door that says such items are prohibited. However, I can't actually enforce my desires on that front unless I'm going to search everyone to make sure they don't have a hip flask or a rolled-up "Playdude" magazine in their pocket.<<<<

I'm not talking about being able to enforce it. I understand keeping it concealed and no one knows.
I'm simply asking that as responsible gun owners and carriers, should we not respect the "requests" made by business owners who post their businesses.
After all, we are NOT required to patronize any particular business. We discriminate all the time in choosing which businesses. We discriminate based on location, price, convenience, quality, atmosphere, etc.
Some of us discriminate on postings against weapons as well, because it's the respectful thing to do.

This is another 45/9 subject. we'll never settle it ;)

rallyhound
October 19, 2010, 11:58 PM
Well Freedom fighter. I see you own a business and you feel that you can do anything you like in your own business.

Can you keep Blacks out if you chose too?
How about smoking, are you free to light up if you chose?

As soon as you open your business to the public at large then the Govt has some way to control parts of what you do.

Sam1911
October 20, 2010, 07:38 AM
I'm not talking about being able to enforce it. I understand keeping it concealed and no one knows.
I'm simply asking that as responsible gun owners and carriers, should we not respect the "requests" made by business owners who post their businesses.

...

Some of us discriminate on postings against weapons as well, because it's the respectful thing to do.

Ahh, well. That's a personal choice that each person would have to make based on a number of criteria as regards each location they'd enter.

Personally, I don't see that something I do which is not known to another, and does not (and CANnot) affect another, can possibly be either respectful or disrespectful of that person. The gun that rides on my hip is unknown to the business owner and he will never derive any harm nor benefit from it (except in the direst circumstances in which his wishes are the very last of my concerns). It is wholly irrelevant to our interaction or our respectfulness toward each other.

Chances are there are multiple things he wishes I would do (vote for his favorite candidate, buy his products vs. those of his competitor, advertise his establishment to my friends, etc.) which I could do to be respectful of him and his wishes. And he'd derive actual tangible benefits from those activities. But no one claims that I'm not being respectful of him if I don't chose to do those things.

If things I do or don't do which could HELP him aren't matters of "respect", then whether I do or do not do something that has no effect on him whatsoever seems to be utterly inconsequential.

Can I just avoid his shop? Sure. Maybe. Sometimes. But then I'm inconveniencing myself and causing him direct financial harm. Maybe I'm willing to do that to make a "silent statement" against that policy. But maybe I know a thing or two about liability, insurance, corporate/company policies, and the law, and don't feel too personally compelled by the sign on the door.

This is another 45/9 subject. we'll never settle it Possibly, but I think even these kinds of debates can be logically distilled to basic cost/benefit questions. Even then, however, emotion, pride, tradition, etc. can still carry more weight for people than the most logical reasoning.

What I get a laugh out of is the frequent claim by some that such actions are "giving gun owners a bad name," or that "this is the sort of thing that hurts our rights," etc. When the entire discussion centers on concealed carrying of a personal defensive arm -- absent any knowledge by the store owner or anyone else -- such claims are absurd in the extreme. Heated, rhetorical window dressing to add inappropriate emotional weight to a weak argument. (Actually a kind of logical fallacy known as an "Appeal to Fear.")

Gouranga
October 20, 2010, 08:03 AM
SAM1911 - I hear these arguments all the time in NC. However in NC all he has to do is post that sign "conspicuously" (VERY vague), and it carries the weight of law. I have seen heard many here and more on other sites say that their right to carry is absolute. In fact what these people do is break the law and advocate others to do so.

Now I know this varies state by state as to sign requirements and such. But it seems to me as gun owners (I CCW ALL the time), we should respect the rights and rules of businesses to post their stores. That being said, I would not ever step foot into a store that posted. IMO, they are taking a stand on a political issue (which is never a good idea in business that deals with the general public), and I will not support a business that takes a stand against the 2A. We have a choice to go into their store or not. We can choose to disarm ourselves and go in or we can choose to go to their competitor who respects our right to self defense.

I say this in suburbia where I have infinite options for about any type of store you can think of. I would make special exemption for those who are a bit more rural where maybe that 1 store is the only one for a considerable distance. IMO, that is a special case that many of us are not subject to.

Just my .02, and yes I know it has been beat to death on THR and we are probably not going to change anyones mind on the matter.

Sam1911
October 20, 2010, 08:44 AM
SAM1911 - I hear these arguments all the time in NC. However in NC all he has to do is post that sign "conspicuously" (VERY vague), and it carries the weight of law. I have seen heard many here and more on other sites say that their right to carry is absolute. In fact what these people do is break the law and advocate others to do so.

This should be very clear: We do not EVER advocate breaking any laws. If your state allows an establishment to post a legally binding sign, then the law takes the decision out of our hands.

But it seems to me as gun owners (I CCW ALL the time), we should respect the rights and rules of businesses to post their stores.
I think I dealt with that pretty clearly in the post directly above. If you feel this is a "respect" issue, follow your heart. If not, follow the law.

That being said, I would not ever step foot into a store that posted. IMO, they are taking a stand on a political issue (which is never a good idea in business that deals with the general public), and I will not support a business that takes a stand against the 2A.
Maybe they are, maybe they are fishing for an insurance rate benefit, or have swallowed some boilerplate policy guide provided by a business consulting firm and it is merely a CYA artifact with no political intent at all.

Maybe you can write some letters and get them to change it. Maybe they get hundreds of letters from dissatisfied customers on all sorts of issues and yours will occupy a treasured spot in the circular file with the rest.

Every business is different. Some are faceless corporate entities, some are Mom&Pop establishments that have to care what their customers think -- and which only enact policies that mean something important to them. Hard to make a blanket statement.

We have a choice to go into their store or not. We can choose to disarm ourselves and go in or we can choose to go to their competitor who respects our right to self defense. Again, maybe, maybe not. Everyone has some threshold for how much trouble they'll go to to make a point that no one will ever see. Maybe I have to drive twice as far to go to that competitor. (Maybe I will do that, maybe I won't.) Maybe I don't care at all what their political intents are and just want to go about my business. Without observing the specific instance, it is hard to say which I'd choose.

I say this in suburbia where I have infinite options for about any type of store you can think of. I would make special exemption for those who are a bit more rural where maybe that 1 store is the only one for a considerable distance. IMO, that is a special case that many of us are not subject to.Yup. Depends on where you are, what you're looking to buy, and a lot of other factors. Also, again, depends on whether you feel this is a political statement by the store, and whether you care. AND, on whether you feel that the store's property-ownership right to restrict confidential personal items possessed by it's customers is compelling upon you.

Again...follow your heart / follow the law.

Double Naught Spy
October 20, 2010, 04:55 PM
Well Freedom fighter. I see you own a business and you feel that you can do anything you like in your own business.

Can you keep Blacks out if you chose too?
How about smoking, are you free to light up if you chose?

As soon as you open your business to the public at large then the Govt has some way to control parts of what you do.

Yep, he can do anything he wants with his business inside of the guidelines of the law and right now the government does not disallow business owners from banning guns.

BlkHawk73
October 20, 2010, 04:58 PM
Maybe its a matter of respect of others rights.
If we are unwilling to respect the rights of others to control what goes into THEIR business, how can we be upset when someone doesn't want to respect OUR right to even own a firearm and/or carry it into places which do allow it?

Hmmm......


I'm with maggie on more than this one post. My right, my right, my right...yadda, yadda, yadda...Yes you have a right but so do others and one persons right stops where another's starts. IMO, if you are to take the responsability to carry there must be a level of maturity and with that come a level of respect. You don't grant and show that respect, you really expect others to respect your choices?

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 20, 2010, 05:47 PM
What I get a laugh out of is the frequent claim by some that such actions are "giving gun owners a bad name," or that "this is the sort of thing that hurts our rights," etc. When the entire discussion centers on concealed carrying of a personal defensive arm -- absent any knowledge by the store owner or anyone else -- such claims are absurd in the extreme. Heated, rhetorical window dressing to add inappropriate emotional weight to a weak argument. (Actually a kind of logical fallacy known as an "Appeal to Fear.")

Well for one, if you go back to the OP you will see this was started about OPEN CARRY not concealed. For 2 I personally do feel that people that disregard others rights in favor of their rights actually does give us as gun owners a bad name. It is by far in no way absurd. I respect others rights and I expect others to respect mine. What I don't respect are those that feel that their rights are in any way more important than mine.

As far as the Civil rights comment, Again I post "Management reserves the right to refuse service" Seen in 99% of stores nationwide. If open or CCW was permitted here in IL I would have no problem with it whatsoever. You could bet my .45 would be a fixture on my side as well. The ONLY problem I have is with these people that flat out refuse to respect ones rights to control their own property in a manner that suits THEM. It doesn't mean a tinkers damn if we agree with his/her policies or politics. What matters is that it is THEIR property and THEIR rules PERIOD. And it is a sorry attitude when people say "screw them Ill carry if I want to".

Matthew in Wisconsin
October 20, 2010, 07:09 PM
We all need to agree that EVERYONE has rights. A citizen has the right not to feel threatened by another carying a gun in a provocative manner. I work weekends in a auto parts store. A customer came in looking for a part that can't possibly be on the car he says it is on; (single cam parts on a DOHC Pontiac Sunfire). He responds by saying that I think he is stupid, then allows his jacket to open enough that I notice a holster.

What do I do? Now that I am convinced that he is indeed stupid and armed, what do I do? Although he has not actually threatened me, no words or direct actions, but... he seriously wants to argue about a car part that doesn't exist on his car. This isn't the movies. And I'm not Dirty Harry. And saying that I should have been carring a gun is childish bravado, not to mention that I don't want to be carrying a gun around to defend myself from people that feel the need to carry a gun around to defend themselves from people that have a right to carry... on and on and on...

At that point, standing across the counter from this nutcase, I'd like to take your rights to carry a gun into a store and deleted -- <Sam>.

Instead, I looked up the parts for a different engine than what he insisted he had. Ordered the parts and told him he didn't have to pay for them until he picked them up. Because hopefully, I won't be working that day.

So you want to be able to carry your gun into where I work... eh? Because you have rights?

MinnMooney
October 20, 2010, 07:21 PM
I just sent a rather lengthy letter to Speedy/SuperAmerica. If I receive a reply, I'll post it here but it'll probably be the form letter that has already been posted.

Sam1911
October 20, 2010, 07:44 PM
I respect others rights and I expect others to respect mine. What I don't respect are those that feel that their rights are in any way more important than mine.(Emphasis added.)

And yet, this is a wholly unreasonable expectation. It is universally understood (at least here among the "gun community") that no person with ill intent (robber, murderer, terrorist, etc.) is going to respect your "no firearms" sign. Certainly not when they'd respect no LAW of man (or higher/other law) against their actual criminal actions. So, on the very face of your argument, expecting to have your wishes respected is absurd.

Now, what then of the "ethical, upright, moral, law-abiding citizen?" I suppose he/she is to hold the high moral ground, acquiesce to your request, and disarm ... i.e.: submit to those villains so rude as to have ignored your sign? So you would demand "respect" in the form of disarmament ONLY from those who wouldn't harm you for all the world.

(Yes, I understand that YOU, personally, would never post your business, but I'm using "you" for the sake of convenience.)

It would make me happy to be able to "respect" others by honoring every wish they have. Obviously this is impossible with so many conflicting wishes in the world. I have to pick and choose which wishes I will fulfill and which I won't.

But I don't carry a defensive sidearm for some frivolous reason. My reason for carrying a gun is more important (INFINITELY more important) to me than the ephemeral (and ultimately pointless) "respect" I could show someone else by NOT carrying it. Especially as my refusal to "respect" them causes not the slightest harm to them, (COULD actually be of some benefit), and will never be known to them.

As I've said before, I could choose to "respect" the business owner by causing him as much financial distress as possible (not patronizing, writing letters, staging boycotts, etc.) -- and I certainly would in many cases -- but those aren't always going to be the choices I make.


-----

(Yes, the original poster mentioned Open Carry, but there is no stated differentiation in his question or in the store policy that they only prohibit Open or Concealed, so there's no reason to try and hang the conversation up on that. Besides, a store that prohibits guns can tell someone Open Carrying to leave at any time, or not to enter in the first place, and have trespass law come into play. Moot point.)

EddieNFL
October 20, 2010, 08:04 PM
We all need to agree that EVERYONE has rights. A citizen has the right not to feel threatened by another carying a gun in a provocative manner. I work weekends in a auto parts store. A customer came in looking for a part that can't possibly be on the car he says it is on; (single cam parts on a DOHC Pontiac Sunfire). He responds by saying that I think he is stupid, then allows his jacket to open enough that I notice a holster.

What do I do? Now that I am convinced that he is indeed stupid and armed, what do I do? Although he has not actually threatened me, no words or direct actions, but... he seriously wants to argue about a car part that doesn't exist on his car. This isn't the movies. And I'm not Dirty Harry. And saying that I should have been carring a gun is childish bravado, not to mention that I don't want to be carrying a gun around to defend myself from people that feel the need to carry a gun around to defend themselves from people that have a right to carry... on and on and on...

At that point, standing across the counter from this nutcase, I'd like to take your rights to carry a gun into a store and deleted -- <Sam>.

Instead, I looked up the parts for a different engine than what he insisted he had. Ordered the parts and told him he didn't have to pay for them until he picked them up. Because hopefully, I won't be working that day.

So you want to be able to carry your gun into where I work... eh? Because you have rights?
Try a different bait.

Sam1911
October 20, 2010, 08:08 PM
We all need to agree that EVERYONE has rights. A citizen has the right not to feel threatened by another carying a gun in a provocative manner.Absolutely! Someone threatening another by provocatively exposing a gun is breaking the law in almost all states. Utterly unacceptable behavior, unworthy of anyone.

What do I do? Now that I am convinced that he is indeed stupid and armed, what do I do? Although he has not actually threatened me, no words or direct actions, but... saying that I should have been carring a gun is childish bravado...This is more of a Strategy & Tactics discussion, but I'd say you handled the situation pretty well. Simply SEEING a gun shouldn't have unnerved you especially, but taking notice of it is good "Situational Awareness." Of course, you have no way of knowing if he really had the right to carry a gun. He may have been a convicted felon unlawfully in possession of it. He may indeed have been a criminal with a history of violent crime. (Or he could be a cop. They've been known to have hard days and not exactly be easy to get along with. ;)) Hard to say. Being prepared for whatever violence someone may present is EXACTLY why it makes very good sense to be armed whenever possible.

Should you have drawn on him? Obviously not. He really did nothing more than argue a mistaken point. That's no crime. Even being resentful and wrongly assured of himself is not a crime. Unless faced with immediate lethal violence, you cannot lawfully draw a gun, let alone fire at him. You used social skills to defray whatever situation might have happened. That's awesome!

At that point, standing across the counter from this nutcase, I'd like to take your rights to carry a gun into a store and deleted -- <Sam>.
So based on the actions of ONE IDIOT, you'd condemn the entire population of folks who carry guns? That's probably to be expected, but it's disappointing. How many of your regular customers carry guns? (O.k. that's not fair. You have no idea.) Depending on your state it could be very few or up nearly 1 in 10. I'll assume you've never noticed unsociable behavior from them before. Just this once, and it didn't turn out to be more than an uncomfortable moment.

Instead, I looked up the parts for a different engine than what he insisted he had. Ordered the parts and told him he didn't have to pay for them until he picked them up. Because hopefully, I won't be working that day.Errrr... okay. Hope that works out for you -- and your co-workers.

basicblur
October 20, 2010, 11:38 PM
At that point, standing across the counter from this nutcase, I'd like to take your rights to carry a gun into a store and deleted -- <Sam>.
Really?
And if your dazzling young urbanite customer that is brandishing starts shooting, mebbe you'd wish one of your law-abiding customers had a gun to help you out a bit?

'Course, you could just put up a no guns allowed sign-no doubt your "nutcase" would have honored it! :D :banghead:

MinnMooney
October 22, 2010, 02:41 PM
Here is the full text of SA's reply with my original letter at the bottom :

October 21, 2010

Dear Mr. Brody,

This is an acknowledgement of your E-mail with regard to our company
firearms policy. While Speedway SuperAmerica respects your right to bare
arms we must also comply with Ohio Law. Speedway SuperAmerica does not
prohibit customers from legally carrying concealed weapons in our stores
that do not possess a "D Permit" liquor license.

We currently have 10 stores located in Ohio that do have "D Permits".
Concealed firearms are banned by law in premises for which a D permit
has been issued.

Thank you for taking the time to write us. We are always interested in
hearing from our customers whatever the reason.


Sincerely,
Linda
Speedway SuperAmerica LLC Customer Service

-----Original Message-----
From: cbpilot@frontiernet.net [mailto:cbpilot@frontiernet.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 7:19 PM
To: Customer Service, SSA
Subject: Feedback From Speedway.com Sent to: Other

Name: Carlton Brody
Email: cbpilot@frontiernet.net
Phone: () -Ext.
Address1:
Address2:
City:
State: MN
Zip Code:
SR Card:
Comments: I have purchased fuel and misc at many SA stations in the
past but never noticed the "No Guns or dangerous weapons allowed" sign.
Since I carry 100% of the time, I find that I can no longer do business
with your stores. This is certainly not a hardship on me (or you, I'm
sure) as there is usually a Holiday or BP on the opposing corner.

One day I overheard some wicked looking thugs who were about to go
into an SA station but they stopped short and said, "Looks like we've
got to go across the street and rob the Lowes store instead 'cause this
SA station doesn't allow guns on their property. How can we rob this
place if we can't have a gun inside?" So... I guess your policy really
works well.

Carlton B.

10/20/2010 7:18:54 PM

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