Bill of Sale????


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huntinggamo
October 14, 2010, 08:59 PM
about 2 months ago I did my first FTF firearm's transaction here in CO, I since have done several others and i have noticed a trend, nobody like to do bills of sale, when i have purchased firearms i have gotten bills of sale for my insurance policy, when i sell firearms i like to have a bill of sale as CYA because who knows if that guy is planning on murdering someone or if he is not legal to own, ect, i just dont want it backfiring on me. does anyone know why the general dis-like of bills of sale? i get dirty looks and they dont seem to happy when i ask them to sign one....

Whats up with this?
Do you get a bill of sale when you do a trans?
anyone else run into these issues?

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AKElroy
October 14, 2010, 09:12 PM
The lack of response should pretty much give you your answer.

Black Knight
October 14, 2010, 09:22 PM
It sounds like you already suspect the reason they don't want a bill of sale. There is nothing wrong with a personal policy of no bill of sale - no gun. If they don't like it tough you'll just sell to someone else who seems to be more reputable. A person who has legitimate plans for the gun should not be afraid of a bill of sale. Be sure your bill of sale has the buyer's name and address on it and that you see proof of residency at a physical address (no P. O. Box). You could have them show you a state issued form of ID with a current physical address as well. Remember you are protecting yourself not them.

oneounceload
October 14, 2010, 09:26 PM
Lots of folks want a gun that is not traceable - i.e. no paperwork to link them to something - typically folks who fear a government taking them away under some guise of safety or similar

Gord
October 14, 2010, 09:29 PM
I will not buy or sell a firearm without a bill of sale, in some shape or form. If the other party doesn't agree, that's their prerogative and I'll move on. Simple as that.

Be sure your bill of sale has the buyer's name and address on it and that you see proof of residency at a physical address (no P. O. Box). You could have them show you a state issued form of ID with a current physical address as well.

I just ask that they put down their DL# on my copy of the bill of sale, and I do require them to show me their DL briefly as proof of residency.

My bills of sale typically go along the lines of:

I, [seller], do sell a [make, model] serial number [serial] to [buyer] on [date]. Buyer has shown proof of residency and by signature below confirms that he or she is legally able to own and possess a firearm under all applicable state and Federal laws.

[Seller printed name]
[Seller signature]
[DL number]

[Buyer printed name]
[Buyer signature]
[DL number]

Short, sweet and to the point. I have a bill of sale certifying that they're legal to buy, and they have a bill of a sale with a DL# to show the authorities on the off chance that I stole the gun or it was previously used in a crime or something (or vice versa). Cheap CYA for both parties, as far as I'm concerned.

dogtown tom
October 14, 2010, 09:37 PM
Make sure you get fingerprints and a DNA sample as well. It's way to easy to fake a drivers license.

:rolleyes:

Iam2taz
October 14, 2010, 09:45 PM
I wouldn't buy or sell a gun with out one. That legal policy works both ways. ;-)

swede4198
October 14, 2010, 09:48 PM
I have done several FTF sale of weapons and never gave or received a bill of sale. I do verify the buyer has a picture ID from my state per the ATF requirement. The last weapon I bought I almost walked away because the seller wrote down my CCW info.

I am a firm beleiver in the 2nd ammendment. I do not want weapons that can be taken from me because someone wants to collect all traceable firearms. This is what was attempted in NO until people were able to shine a light on those roaches.

M2 Carbine
October 14, 2010, 09:49 PM
You have to follow state and local law when buying or selling a gun FTF.

In Texas I swap the money and gun and walk away. I tell the buyer/seller nothing and I ask for nothing. Just last Sunday I bought a S&W pistol from a lady. I haven't clue who she is and she knows nothing about me and that's the way I want it.
It makes my day when I end the paper trail on a gun.:)

The anti-gun crowd would love it if we had to continue the paper trail in FTF sales and we would complain if it became a law.


when i sell firearms i like to have a bill of sale as CYA because who knows if that guy is planning on murdering someone or if he is not legal to own, ect, i just dint want it backfiring on me.
Exactly what are you CYA from? What's going to backfire on you?
If you sold/bought the gun legally that's all you have to do.

Rusty Shackleford
October 14, 2010, 09:51 PM
+1 to swede4198. And ending the paper trail on a gun should be seen as a great thing if you are an honest citizen.

New Orleans after Katrina is a great example of why it would be nice to have several guns not linked to you. If they don't know you have them, how can they steal them?

jon_in_wv
October 14, 2010, 09:54 PM
I don't require a bill of sale for sales I make on this website or others. The sale is recorded electronically and I print off the PMs/emails for my records. If the cops want to know who that person is they can track them down themselves.

Some people seem to think that if you sell a weapon to someone and it is used in a murder that you are going to prison unless you can prove you sold it to someone else. It takes a little more than that to get a conviction for murder. If you are that uncomfortable about selling weapons, keep them. I'm not being snotty, keep your guns, more guns is BETTER. ;)

huntinggamo
October 14, 2010, 09:57 PM
If I purchase a new gun through an FFL and something happens later on with that gun it gets traced back to me as I am the last one on the paper trail. So having a bill of sale goes to show that I do not have the gun anymore.

M2 Carbine
October 14, 2010, 10:27 PM
If I purchase a new gun through an FFL and something happens later on with that gun it gets traced back to me as I am the last one on the paper trail. So having a bill of sale goes to show that I do not have the gun anymore.
Exactly what do you think will happen when the gun is traced back to you?
I suspect you don't know what will happen because you have never heard of this happening. Every one talks about it and are afraid of it happening but they don't know what they are trying to cover themselves from.

So I'll tell you what happens.
A 45 that I bought from a dealer and later sold FTF ended up used in a killing.
The city Detectives traced me half way across the US. The conversation went something like this.

Detective, "A Star 45 that you bought from ***** gun dealer was used in a killing".

Me, "Wasn't me".

D, "We didn't think so. We already ran a check on you. We assume you got rid of the gun, so we want to know who you gave it to".

Me, "Yes, I (legally) got rid of the gun months ago and I have no idea who had it".

D, "OK, thanks for your time".


The end.



.

Zundfolge
October 14, 2010, 10:36 PM
People on both sides of the bill of sale issue really get their panties in a wad.

Its not a legal requirement, nor do I believe there is any legal advantage to them (or legal disadvantage to not using them).

I don't require it when I sell a gun nor do I expect one when I buy one but if the other party (buying or selling) wants one I don't mind ... whatever makes you comfortable.

Where I draw the line is at local sellers that want to do the deal through an FFL ... that's just stupid.

M2 Carbine
October 14, 2010, 10:48 PM
As far as I will go when buying a gun FTF is show the seller my carry license but I put my thumb over the name and address.

This shows them I'm not a criminal and that I am a state resident.
I can't recall even doing this but once and I've bought a lot of guns FTF.


As far as a Bill of Sale.
If I was a criminal I'd gladly give you a BOS and show you all kinds of ID.
Good luck if you ever have to show this phony paperwork to the Police.:D

MileHighMan
October 14, 2010, 11:01 PM
I am afraid of buying a stolen gun. Would a receipt with the seller's info protect me?

brboyer
October 14, 2010, 11:21 PM
I refuse to give complete strangers any of my personal information, like address, D/L number, phone number, etc.

Birdmang
October 14, 2010, 11:24 PM
In Illinois you have to have a bill of sale and keep it for 10 years.

Ole Coot
October 14, 2010, 11:24 PM
I have not purchased or sold a firearm in 30yrs, turned in my FFL & paperwork then and don't bother with a bill of sale. If I have bought or sold since I consider it a private transaction between private citizens and nobodies business.

okespe04
October 14, 2010, 11:27 PM
I have used this several times, as a seller I would not do a transaction without one. As a buyer......


Bill of Sale
Transfer of Ownership

For $______ received, I, (seller’s name here):___________________________, have sold to (buyer's name here):____________________________
One (1) _______________________ firearm description here, Serial #

_____________________________

Any other accessories here:

I represent that this __________________ is not stolen. I am the owner of the _______________ listed above. If it can be shown now or in the future that this ____________________was stolen prior to the date listed below, I will give the buyer a full refund for return of the ______________________ and all accessories listed above.
Sold as is.
No warranty is expressed or implied by the Seller.
Seller assumes no responsibility after transfer of ownership has taken place.
Seller assumes no responsibility of any/all aftermarket parts added to the ____________.
Seller assumes no responsibility of any/all original equipment parts on the ___________.
Buyer assumes all responsibility when transfer of ownership has taken place.

Seller specifically disclaims any warranties of merchantability or of fitness for a particular purpose of this _______________ and disclaims all responsibility for consequential and/or incidental damages or any other losses arising from the use of said _____________________.
Buyer agrees to the terms and conditions set forth and listed on this document, and acknowledges that he has received a true copy of this Bill of Sale/Transfer of Ownership and certifies that he is 21 years of age or older. Buyer acknowledges and understands that he will read the Owner’s Manual. Buyer agrees that it will be his responsibility when transfer of ownership has taken place to adjust, check, and follow all instructions as outlined in the Owner’s Manual. Buyer attests that he is able to legally buy and possess firearms.

Buyer:______________________________________

Seller: _____________________________________
Date:_________________________
Buyer: _____________________________
Address:____________________________
Phone #: ____________________________
Seller: ______________________________
Address: ____________________________
Phone #: ____________________________

Zundfolge
October 14, 2010, 11:36 PM
In Illinois you have to have a bill of sale and keep it for 10 years.
There's another good reason not to live in Illinois then :neener:

Seriously though, I'm not covering my name with my thumb ... I would trust most of my fellow Colorado gun owners with the amount of data they could get by looking at my drivers license for 15-20 seconds more than I trust the kid at Papa Murphy's that always demands to see my license when I buy pizza with a debit card yet I still show him.

Honestly y'all give more "scary" info to some guy you buy a car from on Craigslist than you do when you sign your name on a bill of sale and let some guy look at your DL. You can be a felon and legally buy and sell cars.

A and O
October 14, 2010, 11:43 PM
Geez, must be nice having the problems you folks have.

okespe04
October 15, 2010, 12:26 AM
Out of all the deals I have ever made with strangers, the couple of times I sold, traded, etc, gun related items have been the smoothest transactions with some of the most respectable people I have dealt with. If it ever feels otherwise I will walk from the deal in a second.

gym
October 15, 2010, 12:28 AM
You do what your stae law requires you to do, An more than that is just a matter of personal taste.
As far as id goes, I don't give my social to my doctor or anyone else, and so far I have never been refused service because of it. Giving people your personal info therse days is just asking for trouble. Assuming you don't know the person you are dealing with, why would you want them to know anything that could lead them to your door. People are nuts, even to the point of the gun failing to function ten years down the line, you don't want some nut knocking on your door asking you for their money back after, they got chewed out by their wife for spending the rent money on a gun. I had a guy come in 5 years after a haircut that he recieved in one of the salons I owned, he decided after his 5 years in the military that his wife didn't like the way his hair looked when he went in,and one of my girls "so he said" cut his hair. They were serious, People are nuts, the less you deal with them the better off you are.I figured after 3 tours in "Nam", it was way back when, we should give the crazy bastard a free haircut just so he didn't blow up the store one night.

Shadow 7D
October 15, 2010, 12:59 AM
I look at it as kind of an honesty check, but then you have fun stuff like C&R, where you are required to collect information...

But if a guy is willing to sign a piece of paper saying he is buying the gun legally, well, kinda makes you wonders, esp. if the only on paper info is his name, date and firearm info.

nalioth
October 15, 2010, 01:07 AM
I am afraid of buying a stolen gun. Would a receipt with the seller's info protect me?There is nothing keeping you from it, except to not buy any used guns.

You can buy a stolen gun from a gun shop. No "stolen gun" checks are required of FFL holders (some cities require checks from pawnbrokers).

As far as "protection", protection from what? If you're found with a stolen gun you bought in good faith (didn't know it was stolen), it'll be recovered by the police and (hopefully) sent back to it's original owner.

howlnmad
October 15, 2010, 01:19 AM
A piece of paper with the buyer and sellers name upon it, no witness, no notary public. May as well stick it between the pages of the Sears Roebuck or Montgomery Ward catalogue out in the privy for future use. That's about all it's good for.

staggerlee213
October 15, 2010, 01:47 AM
I'd probably want some kind of receipt, especially if it's an expensive item in case any question of ownership came up. That's for guns, a computer, camera etc... anything valuable

NavyLCDR
October 15, 2010, 02:02 AM
I do verify the buyer has a picture ID from my state per the ATF requirement.

You must hold an FFL swede4198. There is no such ATF requirement for private sales.

I have no problem doing a bill of sale to act as a receipt for the gun and as a receipt for the money. I will also show ID to verify state of residence, even thought it is NOT an ATF requirement. No way are you getting a copy of my ID or writing down it's number. I don't know you, I wouldn't give that information to Joe Schmoe on the street. If my name, address, telephone number and signature on a receipt and a visual peek at my ID aren't good enough, then we don't do business.

lwknight
October 15, 2010, 02:17 AM
It looks like mostly CA and OR folks think a bill of sale is a good idea. Most everyone else thinks its BS.

marv
October 15, 2010, 02:28 AM
Most dealers won't give a BOS or even a reciept with the SN on it so why on earth should one be expected in a F2F sale?
BTW if you live long enough every health care provider you deal with will have your SSN. At age 65 your SSN becomes your Medecare number.

psyopspec
October 15, 2010, 03:11 AM
A person who has legitimate plans for the gun should not be afraid of a bill of sale.

Could the same logic apply in saying that:

"A person who has legitimate plans for the gun should not be afraid of registration."

or

"A person who has legitimate plans for the gun should not be afraid of legitimate confiscation in the event that their legitimate plans become illegitimate."

Note: Rhetorical, no reply expected.

jon_in_wv
October 15, 2010, 08:04 AM
look at it as kind of an honesty check, but then you have fun stuff like C&R, where you are required to collect information...

But if a guy is willing to sign a piece of paper saying he is buying the gun legally, well, kinda makes you wonders, esp. if the only on paper info is his name, date and firearm info.

Its NOT an honesty check, it just makes you feel better. If bad guys are willing to lie on official ATF forms and risk prison, why wouldn't they lie to YOU? The fact is you can't avoid running into a bad character. It is a risk you take. But if you sell your weapon, comply with Federal and State law and you will be fine. If they don't require one, you are fine without it.

mcdonl
October 15, 2010, 08:35 AM
The majority of the time money and gun change hands. Occasionally I will ask to see an ID to verify age if the seller/buyer looks like they could be underage. I have never been asked to show my ID or provide a bill of sale. It is the LACK of paperwork that I like about FTF sales.

jimmyraythomason
October 15, 2010, 08:41 AM
If I buy FTF I want a bill of sale if the seller is not known to me. The seller may report the gun stolen at some point for whatever reason and I want PROOF that I paid for it. I will do this with ANYTHING that I buy.

youngda9
October 15, 2010, 09:29 AM
I don't do bill of sales because nothing that I own is registered. There is no registration in Indiana so I see no need to have a bill of sale.

I wouldn't object if a seller required one, but I make no effort on my end since I think it's unnecessary.

writerinmo
October 15, 2010, 09:50 AM
I do bills of sale here in Missouri even though I don't have to verify identification unless it's C&R. Why? Because if you have a problem with me knowing who you are, then I ain't about to sell you a firearm. You can mosey on down to the gun show, or the street corner, and get it from someone else, no sweat off my brow. If I sell a gun and end the paper trail and that gun is used in my area in a crime and the BG even looks a little like me, I want that piece of paper saying I sold it, since it's "guilty until proven innocent' anymore, and that one scrap of paper might be the difference in my sleeping at home that night. I have no problem not selling to eccentrics who worry that every bit of their personal information is going to be used against them.

rbernie
October 15, 2010, 10:05 AM
Its not a legal requirement, nor do I believe there is any legal advantage to them (or legal disadvantage to not using them).

I don't require it when I sell a gun nor do I expect one when I buy one but if the other party (buying or selling) wants one I don't mind ... whatever makes you comfortable.

Where I draw the line is at local sellers that want to do the deal through an FFL ... that's just stupid.This.

Its NOT an honesty check, it just makes you feel better. If bad guys are willing to lie on official ATF forms and risk prison, why wouldn't they lie to YOU? The fact is you can't avoid running into a bad character. It is a risk you take. But if you sell your weapon, comply with Federal and State law and you will be fine. If they don't require one, you are fine without it. And this.

As far as I have been able to determine, there is zero legal benefit to a bill of sale. More to the point, you have zero assurance that the infomation provided on it is legit. A BoS is not a magic talisman that somehow makes it less likely that you'll sell a gun to A Bad Person, and it's not a Get Out OF Jail Free card in the event that you do. Your situational awareness and ability to suss out good deals from shady deals is still your best defense against selling a gun to a prohibited person.

<rant>
Last time I looked at the statistics from the DoJ, something close to fifty percent of all Federal felons who used a firearm during the commission of their crime were not prohibited persons when they obtained the firearm. You clearly and logically cannot be responsible for how somebody uses an object after you sell it, and I have never groked why so many in the gunny community seem to feel that somehow that's our responsibility and burden.
</rant>

22-rimfire
October 15, 2010, 10:28 AM
I would prefer to know who I am selling a firearm to. I ask for their driver's license now because they are often young and as you get older, it seems harder to "guess" somebody's age and I want to be comfortable with their state of residence. The residency issue is important in my area as you see people from NC, TN, GA, AL, and KY very commonly at gunshows. In Northeast TN you run into VA residents and west TN you run into MS, and AR residents. Before I knew the law, I never asked their residency.

I have never gotten a bill of sale on a FTF transfer even though I think it is a good idea. Abide by the law and you are good to go.

Frank Ettin
October 15, 2010, 12:34 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the primary reasons to document a private transaction are --

[1] If you sell a gun that is later connected with a crime, and the gun somehow gets traced back to you (which can happen if you bought the gun from a dealer), you will have some documentation to support your story that you sold the gun prior to its criminal use;

[2] If you bought a gun that, without your knowledge, had previously been reported stolen, and you were found with the gun, you would have documentation that you bought the gun, when and from whom.

[3] If you unknowingly sold a gun privately to someone who turned out to be from another state or a prohibited person, and the sale gets tracked back to you, you'll have some documentation to help show that you had no reason to believe the buyer was from another state or was a prohibited person. (And that could work even if any ID you got was bogus, as long as it wasn't obviously bogus).

It's up to you to decide on what terms you will sell (or buy) a gun. Documenting the deal could be a deal breaker for some folks. Not documenting the deal would be a deal breaker for others. You need to decide how you want to handle it and what risks you're willing, or unwilling, to take.

jimmyraythomason
October 15, 2010, 12:38 PM
You need to decide how you want to handle it and what risks you're willing, or unwilling, to take. that about covers it for me.

NavyLCDR
October 15, 2010, 12:43 PM
As far as I have been able to determine, there is zero legal benefit to a bill of sale.

What about the legal benefit of having a receipt? What if you get a small claims filed against you if you sell a gun and the buyer is claiming, "I gave him the money (check or money order) for this gun but he never delivered the gun." Or in reverse, the seller claims, "I gave him this gun, but he never gave me the money to pay for it!"

I look at the bill of sale as a simple receipt for the exchange of goods/money. But, just like I won't let Wal Mart put a copy of my driver's license number on my receipt for the stereo I bought there, I won't let anyone put it on a bill of sale for a gun.

AirForceShooter
October 15, 2010, 12:49 PM
I'm in Fla. No paperwork is required.
All that is necessary is that the seller believes the buyer is allowed to buy.
I don't do BOS. All I want when I sell is the buyer show me his CCW. No CCW no sale.
When I but I'll show my CCW.
No one is putting down any numbers.
If you want to go the BOS route all I ask is you say so in your ad.

AFS

jimmyraythomason
October 15, 2010, 01:07 PM
All I put on the bill of sale is buyer's and seller' names (and signatures)and a description of the firearm. The only numbers are the firearm's serial number(a BOS is useless without one) and amount paid. None of this is required by my state or by federal law. It is what you do when you buy from or sell to me.

hiphowitzer
October 15, 2010, 01:39 PM
You must hold an FFL swede4198. There is no such ATF requirement for private sales.
.

This from ATF FAQ:

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

The way I read this, you need to verify residency with a photo id and at the very minimum insure that the buyer is 18 or older otherwise the buyer is a prohibited person.

brboyer
October 15, 2010, 02:47 PM
This from ATF FAQ:

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

The way I read this, you need to verify residency with a photo id and at the very minimum insure that the buyer is 18 or older otherwise the buyer is a prohibited person.

You are reading it wrong.

If you know he is not a resident, you cannot sell.

The law does not require you to know that he is a resident.

BTW, a photo ID does not necessarily prove residency. That is why the law is written as it is.

A and O
October 15, 2010, 03:01 PM
Although this thread does not apply to me, I think I can contribute to it in a positive manner.

The only reason I would give a BOS to anybody is for my own protection. I would state on my copy and the buyers that this Gun is being "Sold As Is". No warranty whatsoever. In California that is the only way to release yourself from any liability after the sale. And when written into auto contracts it also releases you from the Smog Junk.

Geez I hate this State.


Had to edit to say that this entry is given to you "As Is, No Warranty Expressed or implied"

NavyLCDR
October 15, 2010, 03:09 PM
The way I read this, you need to verify residency with a photo id and at the very minimum insure that the buyer is 18 or older otherwise the buyer is a prohibited person.

According to that reasoning, hiphowitzer, you would also have to perform a background check on the buyer to ensure they are not a felon, you would have to do a medical records check to ensure they have not been declared a mental incompetant , been committed to a mental institution or have been addicted to illegal drugs, and you have to do a local background check to ensure they have no misdemeanor convitions of domestic violence.

Packman
October 16, 2010, 12:13 AM
Most dealers won't give a BOS or even a reciept with the SN on it so why on earth should one be expected in a F2F sale?

Every gun I've ever purchased from a dealer included Bill of Sale/Receipt that listed a description of the gun, the serial number, and the amount paid.

If I buy from a private individual, I'm willing to show a FL driver's license and a CCW, if the seller really wants to see it. By show, I basically mean "flash." I'm not going to have someone I don't know a thing about recording any of my personal information, thank you very much. I have no idea what they're going to do with it, and I'm a suspicious person. If they don't like it, I'm not buying their guns.

As far as me selling a gun, I dunno. I never have, and don't have any I really intend to sell. If I went to the trouble of buying it, I probably wanted it bad enough that I'm keeping it. The only exception to this one is a shotgun I bought as a gift for my best friend. Other than that, if I bought it, it's mine. :)

thorazine
October 16, 2010, 05:39 AM
i get dirty looks and they dont seem to happy when i ask them to sign one....

Do you state up front that a bill of sale is required in the advertisement or instead surprise them after they drove a half hour for the meeting?

If you like to surprise the buyer I would give you dirty looks and would potentially cancel the deal.

luigi
October 16, 2010, 08:54 AM
Colorado doesn't regulate the private sale of a firearm except at a gun show. I have bought several firearms w/ no paper trail what so ever. I bugs the hell out of me when I see people adding Fudd rules to their gunsales.

jimmyraythomason
October 16, 2010, 09:08 AM
Fudd rules? If you buy from me and don't want a BOS that's fine with me but if I buy from you and you don't want to give me a BOS/receipt for my money,I'll just find a seller who will.

logical
October 16, 2010, 09:10 AM
In Michigan a buyer by state law has to have a purchase permit or a CPL to buy from a dealer or a private party. The law also requires the sale to be documented and reported to the state police. Good or bad, thats what you require of a buyer in MI if you want to follow the law when selling FTF.

luigi
October 16, 2010, 09:24 AM
if I buy from you and you don't want to give me a BOS/receipt for my money,I'll just find a seller who will.

Please do. IMO when we add unnecessary requirements to the law we’re no different than the antis. In Colorado a legal private sale (where less than 2% of crime guns come from) is unregulated. If the state feels that no regulation is needed why should you add any?

If you get a recipt from me it will say "Jimmyraythompson gave me X dollars and I gave him a firearm done deal."

jimmyraythomason
October 16, 2010, 09:38 AM
IMO when we add unnecessary requirements to the law we’re no different than the antis. That's total BS. If I pay for anything including a gun I want a receipt for my money. That is in no way contrary to the 2nd amendment or any other right or freedom. It's just good business.

hiphowitzer
October 16, 2010, 09:44 AM
According to that reasoning, hiphowitzer, you would also have to perform a background check on the buyer to ensure they are not a felon, you would have to do a medical records check to ensure they have not been declared a mental incompetant , been committed to a mental institution or have been addicted to illegal drugs, and you have to do a local background check to ensure they have no misdemeanor convitions of domestic violence.
Read my post again. You have to have " reasonable cause". Checking a drivers license for residency and age is reasonable. A backround check is beyond the resources of most sellers.

luigi
October 16, 2010, 10:47 AM
If I pay for anything including a gun I want a receipt for my money. That is in no way contrary to the 2nd amendment or any other right or freedom. It's just good business.

I told you if you absolutely want a recipt I'll give you one and it will say verbatim "Jimmyraythompson gave me X dollars in exchange for a firearm done deal"

jimmyraythomason
October 16, 2010, 10:56 AM
"Jimmyraythompson gave me X dollars in exchange for a firearm done deal" Spell my name correctly and we have a deal. (I will record the serial number on my copy)

NavyLCDR
October 16, 2010, 11:29 AM
Read my post again. You have to have " reasonable cause". Checking a drivers license for residency and age is reasonable. A backround check is beyond the resources of most sellers.

Read the statute again. You say you "NEED" to see a driver's license to verify residency - but then you turn around and say that doing a background check is unreasonable. And yet, the exact same restrictions in statute apply to residency as does felon, mental defective, committed to a mental institution, etc. So how can you say that it is required to see a driver's license or ID, but not required to verify the other items? The EXACT same language is used in the statute for both! The fact is that the Federal statute does NOT require you to verify state of residence just as much as it does NOT require you to verify the person is not a felon, etc...

18 USC 922 (a)(5) and (d):

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides

(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—
(1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
(2) is a fugitive from justice;
(3) is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
(5) who, being an alien—
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(26)));
(6) who [2] has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
(7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship;
(8) is subject to a court order that restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child, except that this paragraph shall only apply to a court order that—
(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had the opportunity to participate; and
(B)
(i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or
(ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or
(9) has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.

22-rimfire
October 16, 2010, 11:49 AM
Some may not like this, but I do ask for the buyer's ID if I am selling. If they want a bill of sale, they get one. But I record the buyer's name and what I can remember when I look at their driver's license on my copy for my records. I don't do it in front of them, but I guarantee I know their name and address for my records.

Seldom in my life have I really felt that I "needed" to sell a firearm. So if the buyer is uncomfortable, I really don't care and I do get their information. I seldom really care if the gun sells today or next year.

Balrog
October 16, 2010, 12:00 PM
Read my post again. You have to have " reasonable cause". Checking a drivers license for residency and age is reasonable. A backround check is beyond the resources of most sellers.

To those of you who require a photo ID, how do you know it is legitimate ID? I do not know how to tell a fake ID from a real ID. How do you tell?

PX15
October 16, 2010, 12:04 PM
FWIW:

I'm old (67) and I have always gotten a receipt from a seller when buying a gun, and I've always given a receipt when I sold a gun.

Just personal preference, I think doing so "might" make it easier for me down the road should a gun I sold be involved in a crime, and easier for me should a gun I bought, in good faith, be stolen, or have been somehow involved in a crime before I purchased it.

It's not necessarily about the legality of doing giving and getting a receipt, or bill of sale, I just feel better when I do, and that's good enough for me.

The idea that having a bill of sale is a good thing is so ingrained in my thinking that last weekend at the Eastman Gun Show in Savannah, Ga. when I traded in a Walther G22 + cash for a Marlin Original Golden 39A, and no information was exchanged between myself and the seller I was amazed.

My buddy reminded me that in many instances a trade/selling of a long rifle is different than the same procedure for a handgun, but I was still surprised at how simple the transaction was.

Or:

How much are you asking for the 39A?
Can you take less?

Um.. that's better....

Will you take this Walther G22 in trade?
No?

Seeya.. Have a great day. :)

Oh, you WILL take the G22 in trade?
Great.. I appreciate it.

Here's my G22 (Thank you Lord, I was really beginning not to like that sucker).
Here's the cash difference my wifey kindly loaned me.

Have a good day... Thanks to you, I'm having one already..

Painless.
Priceless...

Jesse

Bonesinium
October 16, 2010, 12:44 PM
Well I have never done a FTF transfer/sale/trade, I think it is completely reasonable to get a bill of sale AND ask to see and ID if you want.

Having a bill of sale does a couple things. It is some sort of proof that you own (if you are buying) or don't own a specific firearm. Even if neither are legally required, it can still be beneficial and easier for you to get other things accomplished.

Example, from experience.

Handgun is stolen. You report it. If you bought it face to face, have no bill of sale, even though you haven't done anything wrong, it is much more convenient and quicker to go through the process of reporting it stolen when you can just show them some paperwork that verifies you have that firearm to begin with. Not all cops are as helpful as others...

gym
October 16, 2010, 11:05 PM
In Fl there is a link I posted a while back where you can check to see if the gun was stolen right from your cell if you have a 3g phone with internet. I did that when I met a fella in a parking lot once. He didn't even want to get out of his truck. He was dressed in Cameo from head to toe when he finally did exit the blk Durango. All was well, he had FL license, and that was that. As far as insurance goes if you just take pictures of your stuff that is uaually enough. Down here with the hurricane crap, insurance companys are pretty good, and when they gave me a shortfall that last one we had, I took them to court and got another 15 thousand. It comes down to how much you want the gun, and how much you are willing to do to get it. But I just don't trust stragers with my ID, I have been told by the banks and CC companies not to give out any info you don't have to.

CajunBass
October 17, 2010, 09:04 AM
I see no sense at all in doing for the government what they don't have the authority, either given or taken, to do themselves.

rscalzo
October 17, 2010, 09:35 AM
I see no sense at all in doing for the government

Where do you get that from?? Documentatuion for your own use? What does that have to do with the government?

tooltech
October 18, 2010, 01:24 AM
Where do you get that from?? Documentatuion for your own use? What does that have to do with the government?

Perpetuating a paper trail for your "personal use" or "protection" has everything to do with the government. Who else is going to be interested in a private transaction?

CapnMac
October 18, 2010, 01:46 AM
I prefer a BoS for the same reason that I want one in every other transaction.

If you contract with me to come set up your office computer network, I'm going to bill you. You will get a receipt which details what you paid for and how you paid. When I buy something to resell, I'm keeping my receipt for my business purposes. Simple as that.

Government is not involved. Not unless they develop warrants and PC and the like.

But, if I take calves to the auction house, but sell them in the parking lot, there's a BoS. If I buy or sell a firearm, it's no different to my thinking.

Gord
October 18, 2010, 02:33 AM
Perpetuating a paper trail for your "personal use" or "protection" has everything to do with the government. Who else is going to be interested in a private transaction?

You act as if anyone asking you to sign a bill of sale is then going to forward it straight to some government database like a good little serf. It's personal CYA; if you don't do anything moronic with the gun that's in my name on the 4473, I won't have any reason to show a government agent (or anyone else) the bill of sale. If a badge does knock on my door inquiring as to whether I know anything about my gun being used to knock over a bank the next town over, however, I'm not going to risk my personal status quo by offering up the undocumented explanation that "yeah, I totally sold it to some dude a couple weeks back. Nope, don't know his name or where he lives or anything about him whatsoever. Well, I guess that's that!"

This also isn't unique to guns. If I'm forking out much more than $200 for a piece of merchandise, I'm probably going to want a bill of sale stating that I now own the merchandise in question, that it's in working order (if applicable) at the time of sale, etc., etc. I'd expect any buyer with a whit of intelligence to request same.

stickhauler
October 18, 2010, 05:12 AM
I'm frankly amazed at so many responses to this thread where the person said they'd refuse to do a BOS for a firearm purchase or sale. I thought this was the High Road, where we tried to promote legal transfers of firearms.

I assure you, if you buy a firearm from me, you'll either show me your ID with enough time for me to note your name, address, and drivers license number, or CCW permit number if that's the ID you choose to show. Both your information, and mine will be listed on a copy of the bill of sale, along with the serial number of the firearm. The purchase price will be listed as well, with the notation included that you're buying the firearm "as is" and my assurance it operated properly to the best of my knowledge at the time of sale. We'll both sign it, with the names listed in buyer/seller information. If that ain't cool with you, we aren't going to have a deal. I'd require this from you, that I don't know from Adam, or from my own brother or son.

To those who are so up in the air about refusing to go through with a deal where someone required those simple steps for the transfer of a firearm in a face-to-face sale, thanks for giving the anti-gun crowd every piece of proof they need to demand that face-to-face sales be banned nationwide. They might not have your name and address, but they have the proof they can cut and paste into an e-mail to a legislator demanding private sales be banned.

I thought we were supposed to be the good guys?

nalioth
October 18, 2010, 05:26 AM
I'm frankly amazed at so many responses to this thread where the person said they'd refuse to do a BOS for a firearm purchase or sale. I thought this was the High Road, where we tried to promote legal transfers of firearmsIn Texas, BoS' are not legally required.

In Texas, showing ID isn't legally required, either.



Don't get all twisted and start accusing folks here of "low road" behavior just because it may be different where you live.

stickhauler
October 18, 2010, 05:49 AM
I doubt Ohio's law on FTF sales are different from Texas, it's what responsible people do. This bogus "living off the grid" attitude of many responses bothers me more than what any law requires. Unless you are carrying concealed illegally
(with the exception of a few states) you're on a government list of people they would know own firearms. If you giving me basic information on the sale of a firearm is seen as a danger of identity theft in your world, you really need to get that foil hat made to a larger size, it's pinching off something. If you think I'm supplying your information, and proof you own a firearm to the Feds, you're really too damned paranoid.

My point is, this is a public forum, with posts available for view without ever registering as a member. If you are naive enough to believe the anti-gun side doesn't know about this forum, and likely read it regularly, there's a issue on that as well. They want to find proof that gun owners are acting irresponsibly, and ya'all gave them a truck load with the responses in this thread.

Of the guns I own, there is at most only one not on government paper as they were either bought through an FFL, or came into my possession via my use of a C&R license. Given the number of gun owners in this country, and the majority of us unwilling to yield on our second amendment rights, I have no fear the "jack-booted thugs" are coming to get our guns.

"Don't get all twisted" if laws are different where I live? Did you read this thread, and the responses of those who got radical about the idea of even buying a gun if a BOS was required? And you felt it necessary to call me out for "getting all twisted?" I stated my requirements for you to buy a gun in a private sale from me, if that's too strict, there isn't going to be a deal made.
If my mother was still living and bought a gun from me, I'd require the same. Regardless of any law.

nalioth
October 18, 2010, 05:58 AM
Don't assign your morals to others, please.

It's legal here in Texas (and some other states) to cash-n-carry, and many Texans do.

Just because you choose to do the paperwork dance, doesn't make it "irresponsible" for me to exercise my legal right to "cash-n-carry".

jimmyraythomason
October 18, 2010, 08:18 AM
Don't assign your morals to others, please.
Morals has nothing to do with a BOS. It is just good business.

22-rimfire
October 18, 2010, 10:42 AM
I agree. I just wish I did it every time I sold something or provided services.

rscalzo
October 18, 2010, 10:50 AM
That's total BS
I tend to agree. I get a BOS from any large purchase and it's for MY records. Why everyone is bring the government into it when they don't require it is odd. It's for the benefit of the seller and buyer and no one else. Simply good business practices.

dogtown tom
October 18, 2010, 12:20 PM
stickhauler I'm frankly amazed at so many responses to this thread where the person said they'd refuse to do a BOS for a firearm purchase or sale. I thought this was the High Road, where we tried to promote legal transfers of firearms...

Well.........do you know what IS legally required?:rolleyes:

For a transaction between nonlicensees residing in the same state:
A Bill of Sale IS NOT required under any federal law.
Recording the buyer or sellers name, address, DL number, birthdate, height , weight or anything else IS NOT required under any federal law.

Exactly what part of the above is contrary to the ideals of The High Road?

Freedoms not exercised are freedoms lost. Continue to make up your own silly, meaningless "requirements" and eventually they'll become law.

If you list a WTS ad for a firearm and mention that the buyer will have to show ID and have his info recorded.....that's fine by me. Anyone that buys under those restrictions deserves what he gets.

But many sellers do not do that. Instead they come to an agreement to sell the gun, get nervous, and then at the FTF meet decide they need to write out a Bill of Sale to "protect" themselves. Requiring the buyer to provide his personal information is out of line at this point. Similiarly, buyers who decide at the last minute that they need a BOS can take a hike. That requirement should have been made when you offered to buy the gun.

It does puzzle me......do you guys not bother to archive your emails? I can pull up every FTF firearms transaction I've done since 1998 just by searching through my archived emails.

jimmyraythomason
October 18, 2010, 12:39 PM
A Bill of Sale IS NOT required under any federal law.
Great! I hope it stays that way! That has absolutely nothing to do with me wanting a receipt for my purchase be it gun or groceries.

DCR
October 18, 2010, 03:23 PM
What's all this talk about "good business" in a conversation about personal transactions???

If it's "business" to you, you should be an FFL; go get licensed, then print out bills of sale to your heart's content for each transaction, and leave gun sales to the professionals.

To those that require a BOS where your state law does not, well, I say the .gov has won by putting fear of its wrath into you. Those already indoctrinated to what the .gov wants to ultimately impose roll over easiest when it is proposed or imposed; they are the "sheeple" we so glibly refer to - and it appears they are among the forum members as well.

jimmyraythomason
October 18, 2010, 03:29 PM
I say the .gov has won by putting fear of its wrath into you. And you would be very wrong in that assumption. Someone buys from me and doesn't want a receipt/BOS good on them they wont get one. Sell to me you will give me a receipt. If that is too tough for you then we have no deal. GOVERNMENT has nothing to do with me wanting proof I paid for anything.

Frank Ettin
October 18, 2010, 06:21 PM
What's all this talk about "good business" in a conversation about personal transactions???...When strangers exchange things of value it's business.

...To those that require a BOS where your state law does not, well, I say the .gov has won by putting fear of its wrath into you....Balderdash.

More than a few of my colleagues live in nice houses in nice neighborhoods, drive nice cars, and generally lead materially comfortable lives, all financed in large part by the contributions of folks who should have known better, but who needed the services of a lawyer to get them out of trouble they could otherwise probably have avoided if they weren't disinclined to take some fairly simple precautions when conducting business.

If you're the seller of a gun, having documentation that on X date you sold this gun (identified by description and serial number) to a person who showed you specified forms of identification like a driver's license and concealed weapons permit will go a long way toward conclusively establishing that (1) you had no reason to believe that he was not a resident of your State; (2) you had no reason to believe that he was a prohibited person; and (3) that after that date you no longer possessed the gun. Even if the ID was forged, you've still established your due diligence. You've also gone a long way toward establishing that if the gun was later used in a crime, you no longer possessed it at the time.

And if you're buying a gun in a private transaction, similar documentation will help establish when and how you came into possession of it. That could be helpful if it turns out that it was previously reported stolen.

Of course, it's finally up to you on what terms and in what way you want to conduct your personal business. And in many cases, even if you're haphazard about it, things will work out. But then again, if you're both haphazard and unlucky there's always the chance that you'll wind up helping a colleague of mine buy another fancy new car. (I'm retired now, so it doesn't matter to me.)

nalioth
October 18, 2010, 06:38 PM
Balderdash.I was under the impression there were no private transactions allowed in California.

Frank Ettin
October 18, 2010, 06:57 PM
I was under the impression there were no private transactions allowed in California.That's correct. But I was writing in general terms.

A lot of lawyers make a lot of money sorting out matters for folks who could have been a little less haphazard in the way they conduct their personal business, no matter what that business might be. And of course, many States allow private firearms transactions.

stickhauler
October 18, 2010, 07:02 PM
Well.........do you know what IS legally required?

For a transaction between nonlicensees residing in the same state:
A Bill of Sale IS NOT required under any federal law.
Recording the buyer or sellers name, address, DL number, birthdate, height , weight or anything else IS NOT required under any federal law.

Exactly what part of the above is contrary to the ideals of The High Road?

What part of not giving the anti-gun crowd ammunition to get laws passed to ban private sales based on the comments your side of the argument posted here escape you. It sure seems to me like a majority here see no need to even ascertain the identity of the buyer in a private sale, and are against any buyer knowing who they are in a private sale. You really think that isn't exactly what the anti-gun side wants to prove to legislators when they demand a halt to any private sales?

Be as uncaring as you wish, and when they use the comments of you and others here vehemently defending your reluctance to even have proof of who bought your gun against ALL gun owners, we'll know who to thank (or blame)for that right being ended by law.

That is "High Road" to you? I'd prefer to present a view to the anti-gun crowd that we're responsible gun owners, who use whatever means necessary to insure that, if we choose to sell a gun in a private sale, it is sold to a person legally allowed to buy it. That is "High Road" to me, as I said, we're supposed to be the good guys.

nalioth
October 18, 2010, 07:17 PM
Well.........do you know what IS legally required?

For a transaction between nonlicensees residing in the same state:
A Bill of Sale IS NOT required under any federal law.
Recording the buyer or sellers name, address, DL number, birthdate, height , weight or anything else IS NOT required under any federal law.

Exactly what part of the above is contrary to the ideals of The High Road?
What part of not giving the anti-gun crowd ammunition to get laws passed to ban private sales based on the comments your side of the argument posted here escape you. It sure seems to me like a majority here see no need to even ascertain the identity of the buyer in a private sale, and are against any buyer knowing who they are in a private sale. You really think that isn't exactly what the anti-gun side wants to prove to legislators when they demand a halt to any private sales?

Be as uncaring as you wish, and when they use the comments of you and others here vehemently defending your reluctance to even have proof of who bought your gun against ALL gun owners, we'll know who to thank (or blame)for that right being ended by law.

That is "High Road" to you? I'd prefer to present a view to the anti-gun crowd that we're responsible gun owners, who use whatever means necessary to insure that, if we choose to sell a gun in a private sale, it is sold to a person legally allowed to buy it. That is "High Road" to me, as I said, we're supposed to be the good guys.
You can sell a gun to the most outstanding person you know, and if that person later develops a brain aneurysm and goes nutty with the gun, how would you have known that was going to happen prior to the sale?

You are preaching for strict "gun control".

NavyLCDR
October 18, 2010, 07:29 PM
I assure you, if you buy a firearm from me, you'll either show me your ID with enough time for me to note your name, address, and drivers license number, or CCW permit number if that's the ID you choose to show. Both your information, and mine will be listed on a copy of the bill of sale, along with the serial number of the firearm. I'd require this from you, that I don't know from Adam, or from my own brother or son.

I don't know YOU from Adam. You really think it is wise for me to give you, written down, my Driver's License number or CCW permit number?!? No way. Trust goes both ways, my friend.... you don't trust me in the sale of a firearm after I show you my DL and sign a Bill of Sale with only the info on it that you can get from the phone book about me (+info about the firearm) - I am certainly not going to trust you with my DL number!

And there is absolutely nothing low road or shady about doing a cash and carry deal with nothing other than a handshake in free states that allow it.

Frank Ettin
October 18, 2010, 07:32 PM
...You are preaching for strict "gun control". For my part, at least, this has nothing to do with gun control. Based on my experience, I favor formality in my private business transactions -- whatever they may involve.

I may be more informal about buying a $5.00 trinket at a garage sale. But I certainly would be more formal and diligent about the purchase or sale in a private transaction of anything of significant value -- a piece of art, some expensive jewelry, a fine watch, a gun, etc.

stickhauler
October 18, 2010, 08:02 PM
No, I am not favoring gun control, it's my personal choice to go further than the law requires in such sales. The rule is the seller can only legally transfer a firearm if they reasonably believe the buyer is legally allowed to buy a firearm. If you don't even check an ID, how did you exercise any effort to believe they are legally allowed to buy it? You didn't!

A bill of sale like what I described covers both the buyer and seller, from you making a claim if you suddenly changed your mind about the sale and told the cops the dude stole it from you, or from them claiming they paid you and you didn't deliver the said firearm to them. Because pretty much, you'll not sign a paper saying you got money for the gun if you didn't transfer it to the buyer. They aren't going to sign a paper saying they paid you if they didn't do so, or if they didn't get the gun described.

Needless to say, because of the attitude I've seen from you and many others here, I doubt seriously I'll ever sell a gun in a private transaction, as I want at least a BOS to cover my butt in any number of possible situations that could come up from selling, and then the gun being used in a criminal act.

There is no way on God's green earth the cops would come after you if a well respected member of the community went "postal" because of a health issue after you legally sold them a gun, that's a straw argument. There is a very high probability they would come after you if you sold a gun and didn't even make reasonable attempts to assure yourself they could legally buy a gun from you.

Just what danger is there is disclosing your driver's license number or CCW permit number? How would someone co-opt your identity using those numbers? I see no reasonable way that could be done. Sure, if they got your SSN or bank routing number, it's a breeze. The information that can be gleaned from the phone book should be sufficient in your view? My phone listing doesn't even show my address, just my name and phone number, and I'd wager I'm hardly in the minority on that here.

Still you're trying to miss the main point I was making. This forum can be viewed without being a member of it, and rest assured, those on the anti-gun side do monitor gun forums they can access without becoming members, and quite likely will even join a forum so they can monitor the comments of those there on gun issues. And they would love to see all sales limited to purchases either straight from licensed dealers, or transfers being done through a dealer.

Their main thrust these days appears to be ending private sales entirely, as it's their contention that gun owners are very happy to sell guns to criminals without question. If you really want to express the opinion that you don't want any checks of ID's for a sale to go through, and refuse to allow buyers to know your personal data, please do it in a private venue where they can't just access it for evidence proving exactly whet they're saying all gun owners do. Doing what you and others who insist on doing deals that way is playing to their hand, whether you choose to believe it or not.

staggerlee213
October 18, 2010, 08:16 PM
Which is more likely: Needing to file a home owners or renters insurance claim to replace a lost or damaged firearm and wishing you had a BOS to provide the insurance company

Or the fed marching around the country and collecting millions of BOSes from dusty filing cabinets for the purpose of compiling A LIST.

I'm going to go with A.

I buy something of value-- I want a receipt.

NavyLCDR
October 18, 2010, 08:30 PM
No, I am not favoring gun control, it's my personal choice to go further than the law requires in such sales. The rule is the seller can only legally transfer a firearm if they reasonably believe the buyer is legally allowed to buy a firearm. If you don't even check an ID, how did you exercise any effort to believe they are legally allowed to buy it? You didn't!

Good grief, stickhauler, you don't even know what the law is! In most states there is no "rule is the seller can only legally transfer a firearm if they reasonably believe the buyer is legally allowed to buy a firearm" and there isn't at the Federal level, either. :banghead:

stickhauler
October 18, 2010, 09:08 PM
Here is the data from the BATFE's FAQ:

Q: What record-keeping procedures should be followed when two private individuals want to engage in a firearms transaction?

When a transaction takes place between private (unlicensed) persons who reside in the same State, the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not require any record keeping. A private person may sell a firearm to another private individual in his or her State of residence and, similarly, a private individual may buy a firearm from another private person who resides in the same State. It is not necessary under Federal law for a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) to assist in the sale or transfer when the buyer and seller are “same-State” residents. Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA. See 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(g) and (n). However, as stated above, there are no GCA-required records to be completed by either party to the transfer.

There may be State or local laws or regulations that govern this type of transaction. Contact State Police units or the office of your State Attorney General for information on any such requirements.


Now, it says you can not knowingly sell a firearm to prohibited persons. How would it be possible to know whether the person was legally allowed to buy a gun if you didn't even check their ID?

I know the law as well as you do, even knew where to find it in the FAQ section.

And:

Or the fed marching around the country and collecting millions of BOSes from dusty filing cabinets for the purpose of compiling A LIST.


Yeah, sure, that's gonna happen. You see more hell raised than 50 Baptist preachers at a revival if they tried that, and we both know it.

Like I said, if you want to provide proof of what the anti-gun crowd keeps saying is how things go, keep posting in a public forum the proof they need to entice legislators to ban all private sales.

NavyLCDR
October 18, 2010, 09:18 PM
Now, it says you can not knowingly sell a firearm to prohibited persons. How would it be possible to know whether the person was legally allowed to buy a gun if you didn't even check their ID?

Looking at their ID card is NOT going to tell you if they are a prohibited person or not! By your reasoning, stickhauler, you are going to have to do a background check on the person!

A person who has been committed to a mental institution may have a driver's license.

A felon may have a driver's license.

I have a Wyoming driver's license, but I do not meet the definition of Wyoming resident in Title 27 of the CFR for firearms transactions so it would be illegal for me to buy a handgun in Wyoming or buy a long gun in Wyoming in a private sale.

A person convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence may have a driver's license.

A person addicted to an unlawful drug may have a driver's license.

How the heck is looking at a driver's license and writing down the number doing anything at all to even HINT that the buyer is NOT a prohibited person?!?

Like I said, if you want to provide proof of what the anti-gun crowd keeps saying is how things go, keep posting in a public forum the proof they need to entice legislators to ban all private sales.

My personal opinion, stickhauler, is that you've been associating a little too close with the anti-gun crowd and are starting to believe what they tell you.

Don't get me wrong, I've got absolutely nothing at all against a BOS. I have a BOS for every firearm I have bought/sold privately. But all it is is a RECEIPT. Nothing more. And all they have on them is information about the buyer/seller that a person can get out of the phone book.

marv
October 19, 2010, 12:13 AM
I'm in a retail business and give a reciept for nearly every transaction. I get one for nearly all my purchases. But, in all my F2F gun deals nothing has ever been asked, told, signed or written down by either party. My guns are my hobby and are funded by disposable income so I don't think it matters all that much.

gym
October 19, 2010, 12:51 AM
Do what your state law requires. Don't expect others to agree with your ideals or the way in which you run your life. No one cares what "you" do but "you". As long as you aren't violating the law, the idea of trying to convince others that your way is better or more efficient or morally correct or anything else is a waste of everyones time. And also for those of us that don't get it, the laws are different in most states. So please don't drag your moral, or business, sense of obligation along with you in here. Most of us have been buying trading, and selling firearms related stuff for decades. What makes anyone think that they can just come in and preach to adults as to what they should or should not do in matters such as this that are their own private affairs. This kind of topic gets beat to death with people who get offended that everyone dosen't do what they do. Let every man do what's best for him. That's why it's a free country.

NavyLCDR
October 19, 2010, 01:06 AM
+1000 gym! And the same for open vs. concealed carry too! :D

22-rimfire
October 19, 2010, 01:07 AM
A bill of sale is simply a record of a purchase or sale and the information placed on that bill of sale is subjective. Some want more information than other people. I try to keep fairly detailed records of my firearm sales and purchases, but some are simply... I bought or sold the firearm to a guy at a gunshow for cash on xxx date....

If you have a auto accident, do you record the person's name, address, DL#, insurance company, and policy number if it is available? I do. Are firearms so different? But I can honestly say I have never recorded anything more than a person's name and address on a firearm transaction and sometimes it is only a partial (say Joe Blow, Knoxville TN). I couldn't care less what their drivers license number is. They aren't big secrets as far as I'm concerned. They are recorded all the time at retail stores when you write a check.

NavyLCDR
October 19, 2010, 01:29 AM
They are recorded all the time at retail stores when you write a check.

First, CONGRATULATIONS! for 6,000 posts!

Second, in regards to the above statement..... OMG! Just how old are you exactly! :neener:

stickhauler
October 19, 2010, 03:35 AM
My personal opinion, stickhauler, is that you've been associating a little too close with the anti-gun crowd and are starting to believe what they tell you.


Nope, I don't hang with anti gun folks, and as such have never heard what they say. I am aware that they frequent gun web sites trying to find evidence of what they claim is normal practices by gun owners as it pertains to private sales. Their aim is to ban guns all together if possible, but are willing to take baby steps to achieve that goal. Their first goal is to ban private sales, and force legal gun owners to conduct sales through a licensed dealer. Supposedly legal owners making statements that they refuse to even ask for ID from buyers is exactly what they're looking for.

I said it once, I'll repeat it just once more. If you buy from me in a private sale, you'll comply with the simple fiats I expect from a buyer. If not, no deal. And I'd apply the same requirements to anyone who bought from me.

You want to claim I'm asking for a complete background check of a person, and that's hardly what I said. But claiming I propose that aids your argument that I'm wrong. No, getting personal information from a buyer can't assure me that they're legally allowed to have a gun, but at least I'm going to know who the hell I sold a gun to.

You claim that the info on most any BOS is exactly what you can get out of a phone book. Looked at phone books lately? A helluva lot of them do not even list addresses, mine doesn't. And guess what, they misspell my last name as well. That is yet another straw argument in this thread.

Bottom line is this, keep giving the anti-gun folks proof that legal gun owners don't give a damn about insuring they aren't selling guns to criminals. You'll provide them with the proof they need to get lawmakers to ban private sales. Yes, a BOS is simply a receipt when it all comes down to it, but at least you have some cover if the gun is used in a criminal act. Myself, I am selective about who I'd consider selling a gun to, and who I buy from. Your mileage may vary.

DCR
October 19, 2010, 04:31 AM
Fearmongering notwithstanding, this thread is running 99-0, which coincides with my experiences with BATF on gun traces and LE inquiries (albeit anecdotal) that, in states not requiring a BOS, nobody has gotten into any legal trouble for guns they've bought/sold without a BOS. I'm pitting my 35 years of gun trading against the fearmongers on this board, and still haven't read anything that demonstrably proves my way - no BOS (and I'm being generous including the "O") - is wrong.

Gord
October 19, 2010, 04:45 AM
So let's apply the same logic: what harm has demonstrably come from bills of sale?

stickhauler
October 19, 2010, 04:57 AM
Oh hell, why bother! They are convinced, given 35 years of experience of being lucky, that no blow back comes from just doing a deal of "you got the cash, here's your gun, bye-bye." God forbid anyone points out the truth of the matter. That their actions is exactly what the anti-gun folks are keyed on right now. Lord, we'll hear the whines come from these folks when private sales are banned nationwide. And I'll be here pointing out who helped the Brady gang getting it done. A lot of you folks are gonna be hearing "I told you so."

That's a helluva good question, show us how a bill of sale had been a detriment? Ya'all are so smart, educate us poor ignorant folks how it's so bad.

Oh, BTW, the BS of government agents looking through dusty file cabinets to get possession of BOS's is so bogus it doesn't even deserve debate. We all know that's not going to happen.

NavyLCDR
October 19, 2010, 09:39 AM
Wow, who would have thunk this would be such a heated debate! I think it's pretty simple really.... a private seller should state what their requirements are right up front in the ad - so the buyer can choose if they even want to bother with it. If contact is made, and what the buyer might require from the seller is not listed in the ad, the buyer should be right up front with their requirements so the seller can not bother with it if they choose.

Then when the buyer and seller meet, who cares what the two individuals work out amongst themselves, so long as it is legal? That's what it comes down to, right - if you don't like the way I do business, you don't have to do business with me! No harm, no foul.

I don't think there is any evidence to prove that doing a BOS in a private transaction and copying ID's and numbers and such hurts our "cause", nor do I think there is any evidence to prove that not doing a BOS in a private transaction hurts our cause.

22-rimfire
October 19, 2010, 09:45 AM
A couple years ago, I was looking at buying a nickel 22 Colt Diamondback from a private seller (via a forum). He had a number of them and one of my early comments was.... where you get so many? I was expecting to hear something like "I have been buying them off and on for the last x years and just want to sell now." Simple right, and fairly normal kind of thing. The seller got all upset that I even asked such a question and never responded to another of my PM's or emails. Easy come easy go. The fact that they reacted the way they did made me very suspicious when there may in fact be no reason for suspicion. We never got to the bill of sale discussion and I can imagine what they would have said to that! :D

jimmyraythomason
October 19, 2010, 10:17 AM
Then when the buyer and seller meet, who cares what the two individuals work out amongst themselves, so long as it is legal? That's what it comes down to, right - if you don't like the way I do business, you don't have to do business with me! No harm, no foul.
There it is,all wrapped up in a tidy little package.

dogtown tom
October 19, 2010, 12:38 PM
stickhauler Oh hell, why bother! They are convinced, given 35 years of experience of being lucky, that no blow back comes from just doing a deal of "you got the cash, here's your gun, bye-bye." God forbid anyone points out the truth of the matter. That their actions is exactly what the anti-gun folks are keyed on right now. Lord, we'll hear the whines come from these folks when private sales are banned nationwide. And I'll be here pointing out who helped the Brady gang getting it done. A lot of you folks are gonna be hearing "I told you so."

How old are you?

FTF gun transactions by nonlicensees have been going on since the Gun Control Act of 1968 created the FFL system. Prior to 1968 NOBODY CARED. There has NEVER, in the two hundred thirty odd years of this country, been a Federal law that prohibited a transaction between two parties. As a matter of fact, the regulatory agency responsible for enforcement of these very Federal laws (the ATF) makes no freaking mention of a bill of sale, showing proof of ID or getting a stool sample from your buyer or seller. Further, their "FAQ's" (that you posted) tell you in simple terms that "...the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not require any record keeping..." on the part of the two nonlicensees. As such, you are not held to the same standard as an FFL.

You think that our discussion of our rights regarding such non FFL transactions will somehow alert the Brady Campaign and the anti gunners?

Where have you been the last forty years?

This is nothing new and you can cry that the sky is falling and gnash your teeth that the antigunners discovered the "gunshow loophole" right here on THR.....but you're a bit late to the party. What you, the Brady Campaign and all their antigun brethren can't wrap their head around is that we Americans ENJOY certain freedoms and rights. And right now one of those rights is being able to buy a gun from someone who does not hold an FFL and that a bill of sale is not required.

If you offer a gun for sale and state that you will record the buyers drivers license info....good for you and good luck on selling that gun. But expect to get a verbal smackdown if you spring that requirement at the last minute.

Similiarly, a buyer better tell the seller PRIOR to that FTF or he might have wasted two peoples time.

In short- a Bill of Sale might make you feel warm, but it offers zero assurance that the gun is not stolen, that the buyer or seller isn't who they say they are and if the police charge you with possession of a stolen gun- they'll likely laugh at your cries of "but, but, but.... I gots a bill of sale!.." as they cuff you. You might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.

BTW....how many guns have you bought or sold, where the other party gladly let you record the info on his drivers license?

stickhauler
October 19, 2010, 09:08 PM
Well, now that you've had your little rant, lets go back to common decency. My main point is that posts showing reluctance to formalize private sales in this public forum gives the anti-gunners (who want all sales ran through FFL's, with background checks) all the proof they need to cry for banning private sales. If you can't see that for yourself, you need to take off the blinders.

How many gun laws have been passed simply because of a claim made by the anti-gun side with limited, or no proof at all? I'd wager many. Wonder where the need to ban private sales in California came from? From anti-gunners influencing legislators that doing so would help end persons not legally able to own guns from getting them so easily. That doing so would lower violent crimes in the state. And they got the law they wanted, never mind that it didn't do a thing to lower violent crimes. Now they have a law requiring people to allow themselves to have their thumb print taken for the right to buy ammo. Using the same logic as a reason for passing the law, that it would lower violent crime. Betcha a dollar this won't lower violent crime either. But the law will still be there.

One final word on this, and then I'm done. You don't agree with me and what I prefer to do in regards to a private sale. That's fine, I don't expect every person in the world to agree with me. I've bought likely 10 guns in FTF sales, each done the way I described, and I've never had a person balk about it. I've bought many C&R's from sellers out of my area, and they required not only a copy of my C&R license, but a copy of my drivers license as well. If they were a dealer, I got a copy of their FFL along with the firearm, if not, a copy of both their C&R license and a copy of their drivers license.

As I said, I've no problem with others disagreeing with me. But you'll get a lot further in a discussion with people if you stick to the issue and leave insults out of the equation. That's it, I'm done!

nalioth
October 19, 2010, 11:01 PM
Well, now that you've had your little rant, lets go back to common decency. My main point is that posts showing reluctance to formalize private sales in this public forum gives the anti-gunners (who want all sales ran through FFL's, with background checks) all the proof they need to cry for banning private sales. If you can't see that for yourself, you need to take off the blinders.Reading the US Code since 1968 has provided all the proof they need.

NavyLCDR
October 19, 2010, 11:29 PM
Well, if we aren't going to exercise freedom because of what the anti-c's might think and say, then we need to lock our guns up in our safes and stop carrying them. That's what gets them riled up the most - is us carrying our guns - OMG - in public! :banghead:

postalnut25
October 20, 2010, 03:50 PM
Wow! The is way too much preaching going on with both sides of the argument.

To me, a gun is an object. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't buy & sell cars, tvs, cameras, etc without some sort of bill of sale. I don't need personal information, but I do need a date, description, serial number and purchase amount. I expect the same sort of thing when I buy.

The paranoia over this is amazing.

gym
October 20, 2010, 06:39 PM
But if you don't know someone personally, why would you want to give them your ID, now they "might" come to your home one day or night, and rob your house thinking that there are more guns there. Having lived through a home invasion, I don’t want "just anyone" to know that I tote a gun, especially where I live.
These are not camcorders or cell phones we are dealing with. I think some guys just are in that group that think that nothing bad is ever going to happen to them. Wake up , it does. Why would you put yourself or your family at risk by giving a stranger your info, as he already knows you have at least 1 gun, and by sizing you up, may figure you may be a good score, nice car, good neighborhood, must have more guns at home, Start thinking defensively

jimmyraythomason
October 20, 2010, 06:45 PM
why would you want to give them your ID I don't. All I want is his'her signature on the bill of sale.I think some guys just are in that group that think that nothing bad is ever going to happen to them. Wake up , it does. Things like getting accused of stealing a gun ,or reclaiming it if it is stolen,because you can't produce proof that you bought it.

gym
October 20, 2010, 07:01 PM
Jimmy,that's easy, just take a video or a digital picture of it, like the insurance company tells you to. As far as your first ID question, "that's you", there are other posts, "if you look" where guys want the lfe history of the other person, including drivers license numbers. This topic was not centered around just your requirements, it was about what the process should be. I have dealt with insurance companys and they have always paid if you had a picture you coulld show them. In the land of hurricanes it makes all the difference in the world, especially if you need to go to court.

jimmyraythomason
October 20, 2010, 07:34 PM
"if you look" where guys want the lfe history of the other person, including drivers license numbers. that is WAY more information than is necessary for a purchase of anything.

rscalzo
October 20, 2010, 07:58 PM
drivers license numbers

Giving out a dl is bad business in any transaction. Any reports requested from out department except to the actual victim, official agency or attorney had the dl blanked out. That is a requirement by the NJ OPRA laws.

Same with the social. No need for either to be given.

gym
October 21, 2010, 12:57 AM
Please remove, I posted in the wrong area, sorry.

Average Joe
October 21, 2010, 08:56 PM
I think this topic has gone way offtrack, I smell a lock down coming.

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