[Bravo11]

I've been carrying FMJ for CCW for awhile but I'm thinking of loading up with something else. What is some good self-defense ammo to try.
Of course my final decision will be based on how well my handgun eats them.
Thanks

[TarpleyG]

I've been contemplating moving over to Speer Gold Dots myself but that's an expensive proposition. I am using Hydrashoks now and I know they feed reliably in all three carry calibers that I have so I guess I'll be sticking to them for now.

GT

[Redlg155]

It would help a lot if we knew what type of weapon and caliber you are using as well as barrel length.

In general most manufacturers out there make a quality JHP that will meet regular concealed carry needs. My favorites are Speer Gold Dot and Remington Golden Saber bullets in 9mm and .45.

Again...knowing the specifics can help us in giving some suggestions for good carry loads.

Good Shooting
Red

[Bravo11]

I usually carry a Sig 239 in 9mm. If I have to go real concealed I carry a Kel-Tec P11(9mm). If I want to go big I'll carry my 1911(.45)
But I guess my Sig if I have to chose one.

[clubsoda22]

This websight give's good information that should help you decide.

http://www.ammolab.com/Test%20Results.htm

Personally, I have a strong preference for Gold Dots and Wincheste Ranger ammunition. The Ranger is a Law Enforcement restricted ammo and is not allways available to the public, but can be found. Winchester does not ballistically test their civillian ammunition so I would not buy it. The ranger talon, however, would be my first choice. My friend prefers gold dots, which are more commonly available. They're pretty much just as good. Golden sabers are good too, though i find that they often do not perform as well as the afforementioned two. Hydra-Shocks are excellent bullets as well and strong performers.

I avoid corbon and other brands because they do not use bonded bullets and often experiance jacket separation and fragmentation. You will have more problems with penetration through barriers (maybe important to you as you carry FMJ)

[Sean Smith]

Winchester Ranger-T 127gr +P+ if you can find it for a reasonable price.

- In my experience, it is very feed-reliable, even in guns pre-dating hollowpoints like an old Danish military-issue SIG P210.
- Low flash.
- Accurate in the CZ-75B and (duh) SIG P210 I tested it in.
- As the Ammolab tests indicate, it is a very consistent performer even out of short barrels. Penetration and expansion were virtually identical from a Glock 17, 19, and 26.

It isn't a magic bullet, but it is darn good stuff in my experience. You can also get Federal 9BPLE on sale at Ammoman.com.

[Ankeny]

I am using Corbon in my 9mm and Hydrashoks in my .45 auto. Golden Sabers, Gold Dots, etc. are all good. If it feeds reliably you can't go wrong with any of them.

FWIW, Corbon 9mm ammo is loaded with a Sierra jacketed hollow cavity bullet.

[clubsoda22]

The sierra is not a bonded bullet. Core/jacket seperation and fragmentation is common, especially with their lighter bullets.

[charleym3]

Current production Gold Dots, Golden Saber, Hydro-shocks, Starfire, Personal Protection, (I probably missed several) are all close enough in performance that I would feel well armed with a mag full of any of them. The only question is how they work in *your* sidearm.
Personally, I bought a quantity of Gold Dot bullets and load my own to factory specs in both .45 and 9mm.

[Black Snowman]

I haven't the foggiest idea but when I just had my Glock 24 I bought Federal Premium Defense to load it up with because I figured they'd done more experimenting than I had. Works great in my gun. When :uhoh: KS gets it's act together and I can CCW I plan to carry my Delta Elite 10mm with a 135 gr Nosler JHP pushed by 13.2 gr of AA #7, a WLP primer, loaded up in Starline brass, because I know it works and it will be exactly what I've practiced with.

As mentioned on previous threads on the subject the general consensous is penetration is 1st priority, then expansion. Expansion is gravy and not guaranteed but don't sacrifice too much penetration to get it. If it's a light round keep packing FMJ, if it's got some oomf behind it no harm in a hollowpoint. Pick a modern hollowpoint that works in your gun. If your first magazine donesn't stop them then hope it buys you enough time for a reload.

Remember, my opinion is just as worthless as the next guys ;)

[Ankeny]

As a general rule, bonded=superior penetration and hollow cavity bullets like the Sierra=superior expansion and in theory more tissue damage and a larger wound channel. The debate as to which is best will rage on for years. I have chosen to opt for a lighter bullet at a faster speed and lots of fragmentation. Others will choose less expansion and more penetration. I wouldn't want to be shot with either one.

[SavannahSteve]

If you subscribe to Evan Marshalls's "stopping power data" -- which I do -- then it's hard to beat the tried and proven Federal HydroShocks. They have been my preferred load in .380 ACP, .38 spl, and .357 mag. I have switched to CorBon for my Kel-Tec P32, however, because they provide a big improvement in power, increasing the muzzle energy of .32 ACP rounds fired from the Kel-Tec from about 100 ft-lb to about 130 ft-lb (see the GoldenLoki.com data).

[tbeb]

The standard pressure 9mm load which has always been my choice is the Federal Classic Hi-Shok 115 gr. JHP (9BP).

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. I've been very favorably impressed in both 9mm and .45 ACP with Golden Saber and Speer Gold Dots.

I also continue to have good luck with some "old technology" rounds like Federal's 9mm 115-gr. JHP and their 230-gr. JHP in .45 ACP. These do not routinely "pass" the "4-layers of denim test", so if that's a major concern, I'd go with one of the more modern "premium" rounds.

Probably, the "best" in these two calibers remain in the Winchester Ranger T line. I prefer the 127-gr. +P+ in 9mm, but some pretty respected folks advise the 147-gr. is just as good or better. In forty-five, I like their std. pressure 230-gr. load. How much "better" these loads are than Golden Saber, et al, remains an open question with me, anyway.

Best.

[armoredman]

I have used Hydra Shok for years, and thankfully have never had to test any of them the hard way. I am beginning to get very interested in the new federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket as the best of both worlds - jam free feeding, and great expansion/penetration, as measured by Evan Marshall and his gello slaughtering crowd. One actual shooting we know of - worked great.

[Sharpie1]

Go here (http://www.shootingisfun.com) and click on "Proper Ammo Selection" at the right-hand side of the page.

You should find helpful information there.

TD

[Lennyjoe]

My current carry is a G19 with Black Hills Ammunition.

124 Gr +P with the Speer Gold Dot bullet pushing 1250 fsp @430 ft lbs of energy.

50 round Box rounds are $19 per box.

Same brand for my .40 cal

[Mikul]

ProLoad's ammunition is loaded with Speer Gold Dots. It is excellent stuff. Their 9mm 124gr +P's do 1,324fps out of my USP Compact.

[RWK]

I believe Gold Dot bullets/projectiles are among the very best, if not the best “traditional” JHP. An earlier comment noted their expense; however, GEORGIA ARMS loads Gold Dots in a variety of new, top-quality defensive loads -- and their prices are excellent. I suggest, for those who favor Gold Dots that you check: www.georgiaarms.com.

[clubsoda22]

As a general rule, bonded=superior penetration and hollow cavity bullets like the Sierra=superior expansion and in theory more tissue damage and a larger wound channel.

That's incorrect. Bonded hollowpoints expand just as well as non bonded hollowpoints. You will get the same (SIMILAR) end diameter with a gold dot and a corbon, the difference is the cor bon is more likely to loose it's jacket or fragment, therefore giving less penetration and less tissue damage. a .65" hole throuhg 9" is less damage than a .65" hole through 13". The other advantage to the bonded bullet is penetration through barriers like auto glass. This is why you will not see many police agencies using Corbon.

If you subscribe to Evan Marshalls's "stopping power data" -- which I do -- then it's hard to beat the tried and proven Federal HydroShocks.

A lot of people dissmiss it as unscientific, which it is, it relies on only 1 bullet being fired, and the skill of the shooter with that 1 bullet. It does not relate to stopping power in the least

[Mastrogiacomo]

Winchester Silver Tip hollow points....:D

[SavannahSteve]

Evan Marshall's one-shot criterion was an effort to reduce the complexity of real world shooting data to the point that you could more reasonably expect to be comparing apples to apples and thus get a reasonable ranking of the effectiveness of ammunition. Most of the people that criticize his work seem to have very little or no appreciation of statistics or experimental design. The important thing that you can get from his work is that A appears to work better than B which in turn appears to work better than C and so on. What you can’t get from his data is a sure fire statistical evaluation of the percent of time that you are going to stop someone with one shot or two shots or three shots. He uses percentages only as a way of comparatively ranking stopping power in a 1, 2, 3 hierarchy and you should not attempt to attach too much significance to the absolute value of the percentages.

Evan likes to shoot jello as well as anybody, but he realized that real world shootings are ultimately much more informative that inferring gelatin results to people.

[Stevie-Ray]

Federal HydraShoks, both 9mm and .45 ACP

[Brigrat]

Please for the love of your life do not listen to savanahsteve, you will regret it, study the facts for yourself, learn about statistics for yourself, and learn about the facts of wound ballistics for yourself. I have a BS in mathematics, and I can tell you for a fact, Evan Marshall's data is not statistically valid in the slightest. You do the research, you decide, but please take the time to make the right decision.

[SavannahSteve]

Well, I have a MS in Chemical Engineering and worked for years in R&D and process engineering where statistics and math were the tools of my trade, and I do know more than little bit about them. The anti Stopping Power camp spends a lot of time flaming Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow and their work. However, I look for sound, dispassionate, objective science that speaks for its self, and I ignore the ranting of those that fling insults while highly suspecting their character and position.

[enfield]

Oh Gawd, now they'll whip out their sliderules to see which one is bigger!! :neener:

[Stephen A. Camp]

I'm sure we all have our own views of the "truth" in the wonderful, never-ending
discussions concerning "carry ammo/stopping power."

One can express a divergent opinion or view without comments telling the reader not to pay attention to a specific poster's words. Why don't we do it that way and let the reader decide what he wants to believe or explore?

Thank you in advance.

[Sean Smith]

Most of the people that criticize his work seem to have very little or no appreciation of statistics or experimental design.

On the contrary, many of us do. That's why we consider it worthless junk. It's not our fault if you slept through part of Probability & Statistics. ;)

Quoting myself from an eariler topic:

Here is a re-print of the M&S figures, there used to be a cooler website endorsed by M&S that published the same M&S figures in a neat tabular format, but it went down for whatever reason.

http://www.powernet.net/~eich1/sp.html

You will note that the % figures for rifles and shotguns overlap those for handguns. In other words, the study can't reliably resolve differences in stopping power between handguns on one hand, and high-powered rifles and shotguns that are orders of magnitude more powerful on the other.

Put another way, based on the OSS % numbers M&S came up with, a 135gr .40 caliber bullet at 1,300 feet per second produces essentally identical on-target effects to a 438 grain 12ga slug at 1,600 feet per second (96% vs 98%). That's about 500 foot-pounds versus almost 2,500 foot-pounds.... fully QUINTUPLE the muzzle energy. To belive a study that produces a statistical dead heat when comparing those two projectiles is to appeal to magic. We are really at the point where basic physics doesn't allow M&S to be correct.

At this point it shoud be abundantly clear that M&S are full of crap. This would be like a study of diet pill effectiveness that can't tell the difference between 100 pound and 400 pound test subjects.

The OSS methodology applies the exact same (defective) standard for determining one shot stops across cartridges. It isn't a relative comparison within a given caliber; it is a uniform (if uniformly bad) system applied to a wide variety of calibers. They didn't create subgroups and apply different standards to each one. In this case, a % is a % is a %, based on how they themselves describe it. So the fact that their method can't tell a 12ga slug from a .40 S&W tells us a great deal about how useful their results are.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50402&perpage=25&highlight=Marshall&pagenumber=1

[Brigrat]

Although I do completly disagree with Evan Marshalls theories, the point of my post was not to say it is junk, but to encourage the origional poster to do his own research, if you want to look at Evans stuff, fine, but please look at both sides of the issue, do your research, and make your own decisions. Blind faith in flawed numbers can kill!!!

[Bravo11]

Wow, lots of info to digest. It's looks like I've got some reading and research to do.
I can't really render an opinion on those studies that are being debated.
I think a well known actor put it best when he said.

"Beer from a can always tastes 2 degrees cooler than beer from a bottle, even if they're the same temperature. I don't know why that is, I'm not a physicist. But I am a beer drinker."

Hank Hill, King of the Hill.

Thanks all.

[kimbernut]

IMHO Speer Gold Dots have been wonderful stuff for all my handguns.Nothing against any of the aforementioned brands as I have used most of them. The Gold Dots just seem to be more consistant for me.I would recommend from personal experience that whatever CCW ammo you choose seal both bullet and primer yourself.It's amazing what a little moisture can do at just the wrong time.

[SavannahSteve]

Sean, I appreciate the link. The numbers for both the 40-cal Cor-Bon (96 %) and the 12-ga slugs (98 %) are pushing 100 %, so that is not a lot of room for them to be different. However, if you look at the data from the prospective of 1-stop failures rather than 1-shot stops, the 40-cal pistol failed to stop 4 % of the time with one shot which is twice the 2 % failure rate of the shotgun slug.

The thing that I noticed most, however, is that were only 24 shooting in 40-cal Cor-Bon universe and so a single success or failure in either direction would result in a percentage change of 4 %. You don't have nearly the universe you need to be drawing conclusions about the stopping power of the Cor-Bon. I also noticed that no other 40-cal round was higher than 94 % and most were less than 90 %.

[Ky Larry]

"There are lies,damn lies and statistics." Mark Twain :neener:

[Dave R]

Veering back from the Marshall hijack...

If you reload, Speer's Gold Dots are pretty reasonably priced. You should be able to reload Gold Dots for the price of cheap FMJ blaster ammo.

I'm still working on the right load, but that will likely be my carry ammo. Groups on some of my loads are the best I've seen so far from the pistol in question.

Of course, now we have to have the obligatory hijack on "if you use your own reloads in a defensive shooting then the prosecuting attorney will crucify you for manufacturing eeevil super-lethal ammo."

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello, Dave R. I appreciate your post and getting back on topic. My results with Speer Gold Dots have been positive as well.

Best.

[Mannlicher]

With each of my various CCW handguns, I strive first to find a load that is reliable. In many cases, such as 9mm, and .45 ACP,this choice is Federal Hydroshock. In some cases, particularly with revolvers, I wind up handloading. I am very partial to Speer .38 caliber LSWC, an duse them in both .38 Special and .357 mag.
I like CorBon, in both .45 Colt and .44 Mag for carry ammo. In .40S&W, my Browning works best with Gold Dots.

I have found that you need to shoot a lot, and do some of your own testing, to determine what works best for you , in your guns.