[H&Hhunter]

I'm just curious why do many self proclaimed dyed in the wool hunters say they wouldn't hunt elephant?

Right now in South Africa Kruger National Park's eco system is carrying around 5,000 to many elephants they are soon going to eat themselves to death.

Zimbabwae needs to reduce it's herd by an esitmated 6,000 elephants and soon or they are going to have a major die off.

Botswana I've heard numbers as high as 10,000 over current carrying capacity.

Elephants multiply like rabbits and can quickly outstrip the local flora in todays limited range. Sport hunting is the only economic solution to this problem and it was the funds from legal sport hunting that have brought elephants back to the point where they need to either be culled at a great expense or need to be sport hunted at profit which would benifit all animals the environment in general, and provide incomes for countless thousands of people.

Sport hunting of the elephant is a win win situation. And for the elephants long term survival. Elephant hunting has never been cheaper If you are willing to take a non-trophy cull animal the license cost under $2,000 in some countries. A friend of mine just took a broken toothed old bull in the RSA for around $1,500US. And he reports that it was an incredible hunting experience. He also reported that he was quite emotional after the kill. As most first time elephant hunters tend to be and rightly so.

Either we come together in this country as hunters and promote the ethical sport hunting of elephant or the game departments will be forced to gun down thousands of these proud and worthy creatures from helicopters. Not to mention the thousands that will be killed by people trying to protect thier meager farms and in many cases protect themselves from elephants that will be forced to raid crops to survive.

[cordex]

Hunting African game doesn't personally appeal to me (whether reedbok or elephant or anything in between). However, I love to hear stories and see pictures & mounts that others - who have the time, money and desire to go - bring back.

If you want to pop an elephant, H&H, you've got my blessing. Unfortunately, that blessing only counts as law in Kyrgyzstan, and they don't pay much attention to laws anyhow.

[HSMITH]

I would love to hunt Africa, but I just can't afford it. Best wishes to those that can go.

[Kestrel]

I would love to hunt elephants. My only aversion is the expense. If it weren't for that, I would want to hunt one with large tusks and be able to have the head with tusks mounted and be allowed to bring it back to the US.

If I can't do that, I certainly am not going to pay to go shoot one (with no tusks) and have to leave it over there.

Steve

[St. Gunner]

H&H,

I'd do it in a minute, just don't have the finances to do so at present, hopefully in the next few years I can make a go of it. I was watching a video from Zimbabwe in 2001 a guy who runs another board went on, he shot an elephant and my almost 4yr old daughter who I thought would freak said, "I want to shoot one of those daddy, when can we go..." That about sums up the view from the Moody household, just save me at least one of the surplus elephants for when I get the money to go.:D

If I hit the lotto, I would be gone in less than a week along with a few of my closest friends... Course the guy I work with says before he goes to Africa he needs a Winchester model 88 built in some big game cartridge, he doesn't think .308 is gonna do. Anybody know of an 88 in .416 Rigby?:D

It has been my dream since I was old enough to hunt, elephant, buffalo, lion, leopard, eland, warthog, and a few other critters...

[redneck]

No complaints here on the ethics behind it or any of that.

Just out of curiosity, why is the license so high? Seems to me, that with expense of getting there when you have :
#1 a rifle capable of taking an elephant.
#2 A full set up for being in africa (clothes, supplies and stuff, you might have lots of hunting/camping gear but if you live in alaska you probably aren't quite equipped for africa)
#3 Travel expenses. Don't know what a normal round trip goes for on a regular airline, but I doubt its too cheap, especially shipping guns and all your gear.
#4 time to go, when your spending all this money, you have to work to make some more

That gets your total price pretty dang high! And all for one animal. If your going to hunt Africa I would imagine you would want to make the most of your time there and take a few other animals too, so you've got licenses for them as well.
Seems like if you have in the neighborhood of 20-25 thousand elephants too many, you would make the license cost fairly cheap in comparison to the total cost of the trip. It encourages people to come solve the problem and you know they are going to bring in revenue for more than just the license.

[H&Hhunter]

Redneck,

Depending on where you go the license fee can range from the hundreds to the thousands. What usually gets to be expensive on a trophy elephant are the daily fee's. Your paying for quite a bit of stuff there including staff game guards etc consevation fee's the list goes on and on. Elephant prices have always been high just due to the demand for good ivory in the sport hunting world.


On your first point you can get into a decent elephant rifle for under a grand no problem. You don't have to have a double gun...A good old standard out of the box iron sighted .458 would be just fine.

Point two all the supplies you need for africa are a good sun hat a tee shirt shorts or pants and good comfortable pair of walking shoes because on elephant you can expect to do some serious walking. Africa is the least equipment intensive hunting destination bar none.

Airline fee's are quite cheap and it doesn't cost any extra to ship your guns or gear they are just checked baggage. I can get round trip tickets to Jo-burg right now for around $800.00.

As far as time goes well that's a personal thing I guess it all depends on how you arrainge your life.

There is no denying that it is expensive to hunt Africa however it's more to hunt brown bear or sheep or for that matter elk in many places. And as far as my thinking goes they need to make some money from hunting revenues as that is the primary reason that any land is left for these animals to roam free in the first place.

The point of this thread is however given the facts why would any hunter be morally adverse to hunting elephant?

I can understand being financially adverse to elephant hunting. If it wasn't for the contacts and friends that I have in Africa I wouldn't be able to do much of the hunting that I do over there. ;)

[H&Hhunter]

Course the guy I work with says before he goes to Africa he needs a Winchester model 88 built in some big game cartridge, he doesn't think .308 is gonna do. Anybody know of an 88 in .416 Rigby?

St Gunner.

No but I do know a guy in Arlington who builds a 1886 win in a supped up 45-120 that equals the ballistics of a .458 lott. 500gr bullet at around 2300fps. Or you can have him build you a marlin 1895 in .500 Alaskan firing a .50 cal 500gr bullet at around 2000fps.

That'd do the trick.

I'm telling you guys who want to do this African thing, the next couple of years are a window of opportunity that's not going to last if you can put it together it's a great time.

[sm]

H&H, I'm going to show my ignorance here-ok? :)

Granted monies and time hinder many from hunting in Africa, or similar big game hunts.

I thought the restrictions on Ivory was the reason the elephant was not being hunted. Strict and severe penalties because of poaching years ago--"I thought"--was the demise of elephant hunting. Gov't officals did the culling only.

What is the straight scoop because in honest, I didn't keep with it as I probably should have. I figured it was a hunting era gone by.

MY involvment with ivory was such that a big deal was made over "legal and reputable sources". Certain countries and the old elepahant put down due to culling, or just old age caught up finally.

Thanks,
Steve

[Kestrel]

That's my big aversion, too. If I could afford it, I don't think I would, simply because I would not be able to bring the mounted head/ivory back to the US.

If I go to the expense and trouble to fly to Africa, risk my life to shoot one of those huge beasts, I better get to bring home the trophy!

Steve

[Ol' Badger]

I'd like to bring it to my Processor and say skin that!

[redneck]

Thanks H&H
I hadn't realized that the license fee included paying the folks who have to go with you on the hunt. Thats a little more reasonable.
I wholeheartedly agree that they need to make money off the hunts so that they can continue the conservation efforts. I was just thinking more along the lines that they would do themselves a favor to go for slightly lower profit per elephant because they would sell a lot more permits. I didn't think that they had quite as much cost/overhead on each hunt.

I don't really agree with all the rules on Ivory either now that these guys have brought them up. Thats mainly an issue with the U.S. though not allowing it to be imported. I make knives and while I don't use ivory myself I've seen some of the trouble guys go through to get it, has to be pre-ban and licensed and all kinds of stuff. Much easier to get mamoth ivory and fossil type stuff :banghead:
I can see where that would discourage alot of people from hunting elephant, although I bet the experience is worth it in itself trophy or not.

[HankB]

Why the aversion to hunting elephants?

1. In a word - Dumbo. Too many people "learn" about wildlife from Disney cartoons. (and worse, PETA-inspired shows on cable stations like "Animal Planet.") They think elephants are in danger of extinction, and don't understand that while the elephant populations in places like Kenya were devastated by poaching (the poachers made sure that those at the highest levels of government profited) other populations were actually TOO LARGE. As a species, elephants are VERY healthy. But that's not what people see on TV!

2. Cost. If you jump through the hoops, you CAN bring elephant trophies - including the tusks - back from certain African countries. But if you want a good hunt in a good area, you'll probably have to spend well upwards of $1000 per day as your daily rate, often for a minimum of 21 days . . . and that's before trophy fees and possibly (depending on which country) air charter fees, license fees, concession fees, and so forth. For most people who hunt Africa today, spending that kind of $$$ for only a remote possibility of a big trophy is just not in the cards. Sure, the well-heeled can talk about "the hunting experience" being worth it, and I understand that - I mean, I can go on a grouse hunt and come back empty handed, and STILL say I had a good time. But the cost of a grouse hunt doesn't run WELL into five figures.

3. Trophy quality. Let's face it, your chances of getting a "100 pounder" today are somewhere between slim and none - today, even a 70 or 80 pounder is exceptional. The "cheaper" hunts that sometimes become available will yield either an elephant with less than 50 pounds of ivory on a side, or even (on a PAC or Problem Animal Control hunt) a tuskless or immature elephant. No trophy value there, but still thousands in trophy fees and other costs. (Back to $$$ again.)

I've hunted Africa several times - never for elephant - and that's my take on it. If I win a big lotto jackpot (kinda hard, since I don't buy tickets) I may change my viewpoint.

[H&Hhunter]

Steve, SM,

Both of you guys harbor a common misconception. There is no problem importing Legally taken ivory from any country with leagalized sport hunting.

It requires a CITES permitt. I can arrainge one for you over the phone.

Hank, I agree with all you've said and would just add that I've had several buddies go and sort out a PAC cow or bull and thay all say the same thing. That it was the most intensly dangerous hunting they've ever done.

That blows my skirt up in a big way but then again I'm a bit of an adrenalin junkie.

[Detachment Charlie]

O.K., H&H, I'll step up to the plate to take one for the team.

I have no ethical problems with taking an elephant. I'd love to hunt Africa.
My question is, how difficult is it?
Once you get beyond the mundane stuff like money, rifle, and time, just how difficult is it to shoot an elepant?
I ask this after seeing some "hunts" when I was in the corporate world. These involved taking a client out to some ranch and having them shoot some animal -- elk, bear, boar or exotic. This just wasn't hunting. This was just killing. Shooting dairy cows would have been more of a challenge than these corporate weenies had on the set-up "hunts."
-Sorry for the the rant -- a little off topic, but I had to get it out.
Just how challenging is an elephant hunt?
I can see a real challenge of stalking on foot, some in-rut, bad attitude bull elephant that could turn you into so much between-his-toes jelly if the wind shifts and you miss the shot. But, if all it entails is the cash to hire a Land Rover with a Ransom rest for your 50-yd. pot shot, no thanks.
Now, where did I leave my asbestos skivvies???:uhoh:

[BigG]

I balked when I read the license (some years ago) cost $25,000 :eek:

[H&Hhunter]

Well Detatchment,

That all depends. To hunt a trophy elephant usually entails cutting a track early in the morning then following the track into the thick stuff usually between 5 and 20 miles later on foot.

Once you find where the elephants have holed up for the day in the thickest nastiest thorn imaginable to man or beast you cut wind on them and try to sneak up on the ole boy while he's taking a his midday sieasta. Thne only problem is that he'll have several guards with him commonly called askaris. These are younger elephants who's job are to kill anything of a threat that gets to close to the old man.

After crawling through the thorn you will usually hear the bull before you see him. He'll be eminating a low growling rumbling sound from his gut. You will usually be able to see him at about 20 yards or closer then you have to sneak around and find his head. Untill you've actually seen it you can't believe how an animal this size is so darn invisible in the brush.

After you find his head you try and line up for a side brain shot or if that's not working you can take a heart shot. At the shot one of two things usually happen.
A. Tembo Sana takes one through the brain and collapses to the ground then the askaris start trumpeting and searching around for some little pink thing to smash into ground round. This part of the hunt involves alot of running away cussing and underware clinching

B. The elephant is not hit well and requires a long and usally fruitless follow up. Or he's heart shot and runs for awhile before dropping taking his askaris with him. Or he may charge from close quarters.

A tuskless cow or a control animal tends be an animal that is very aggersive and usually herds up with other aggresive animals. In most cases that I have personal knowledge of either the animal your hunting or it's buddies will charge with deadly intent. It also involves alot of running cussing and unerware clinching. Many of my PH friends tell me there is absolutley no quicker way to get killed in the hunting world than by a bad news elephant. The most dangerous situation in hunting bar none.

In anycase either form of hunting include long forced marches in under the African sun. And then are punctuated by several minutes of life threating moments after the shot. Hardly a corporate get away vacation for yuppie scum.

Then again sometimes you just get lucky and shoot ole temdo off the road over the bonet of the rover. But this usually never happens in a true hunting concesion. That would be more likely to happen while culling (read slaughtering) elephants in a park. But I don't consider that to be hunting just like you don't.

I hope that sheds some light on the picture with out sounding like to large of a richard cranium.

In general I've seen both types of hunting in Africa if you want to you can find a place to drive around and shoot critters from a truck. Or in most cases you'll actually have to put in some miles and hunt hard for your heads. It's entirely up to you.

[Sunray]

Redneck, it isn't the licences, travel expenses, etc. It's the trophy, taxidermy and shipping fees. The Accurate forums are really good on this subject. Actual people who live and hunt in Africa and guide there etc. From what little research I've done, and none recently, you're looking at $50,000 USD and up for an African hunt by the time the dust clears.
http://www.nookhill.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi
NA hunters are adverse to shooting elephants because we've been brain washed by our governments and the anti-hunters into thinking there are very few elephants left. The importation of ivory is illegal as well. Not sure about legally hunted ivory though. In Canada anyway and I think into the US. No self shot ivory for pistol grips why bother?
I'd kind of like to see SteveW13 rumpus room when he gets a elephant head mount installed. Will there be room for the beer fridge Steve? Just curious. I can see one in my living room. In my one bed room apt. HAHAHAHA! I'd rather have a big cape buffalo head though.

[Detachment Charlie]

H&H,
Thanks for the info from someone who's been there, done that.
For me, the true thrill of a great hunt is never really knowing the outcome. Never hunted elephant, but handgunning for big, nasty boar piggies in the thicket is about as good as it gets for me. If I don't nail him with the first shot, he's gonna make me sing soprano with his tusks. Some times you just have to get the old heart-rate up a tad to make things really interesting. I think a few tons of really PO'd elephant could raise mine a few points.
As for the Yuppie Scum...what's the daily bag limit on them in Africa?:evil:

[Kestrel]

Sunray - I'm sure my wife would let me sell all the furniture in the room, just to hang my elephant head... ;)


Det. Charlie - to minimize the chances of injury, do they offer elephant hunts where they chain a drugged elephant securely to a tree and let you shoot at him? Might make the hunt a little more safe... :D Of course, for the pictures afterwards, they could bring in a crane to position the elephant in a menacing position, to make it look like you were in a thin scrape.

I'd love to hunt them - just can't afford it.

Steve

[sm]

H&H

Thanks for clearing up some misconceptions. I didn't really harbor any, I just did not get the straight answers I wanted. In another life I was around ivory, no biggie, I appreciated the whole deal from hunt, to cratsmanship, to finished product. Then the tree hugging, PC, and such hit.

I had just accepted elephants, ivory as part of the "natural order of things". Maybe all this "new order " has really caused a lot more damage than most realize. I tend to think so.

I was about to leave said business and everyone I ran across did not give straight answers...meaning they continued the "big deal" to qualify all the "extra effort" so could charge more.

I could have checked into further but I was getting out and focused attentions elsewhere.

I did visit a home once with tusks mounted and tusks made stools ...I could not believe the size of those things. I mean Ruark and others, always wanted to go...dang them suckers big. Fella said you ought to be facing that when it is a living breathing critter. Nice scar he had too, bleeding everywhere and never knew it, kinda got a "bit hairy" , never felt the recoil, never felt the shot, and when hauling butt ( from askarias) never felt that thorn that sliced him good.

My heart rate went up just taking this all in.

Sir I really do appreciate you taking the time to shed light, share experiences, answer questions, and share pics.

[Correia]

I would absolutely love to, but like many here an African hunt would cost more than I make in a year. Most of us are just working stiffs with kids and mortgages. I think the vast majority of the folks you meet on THR have no ethical problems with elephant hunting, we just see them as really enormous deer. :)

[NRA4LIFE]

H&H,

Wow. I have to admit, I thought the numbers you mentioned seemed unbelievable but I found articles supporting them. KNP has over 12000 elephants with a holding capacity of 7000-7500. An article claimed also that the population is steadily growing by 7-10% per YEAR. That is incredible.

One big problem I think with any aversion to hunting them is that the only things you ever see on TV or the news, etc., is the liberal slant on the whole issue. You will rarely see anything that shows the obvious population problems, but you will always see how there is so much poaching, how the numbers are dwindling in a certain area, etc, etc, etc. It leads one to believe that there are barely any elephants left on the planet.

For me, I really don't have much interest in hunting them. I could afford it, I guess, but there are so many things I would like to hunt on this continent before I go elephant hunting. I have no problem with people hunting elephants, especially when their so overpopulated.

What happens to all the elephant meat after you kill one? I seem to have read something way back when that it is shared amongst the local populace.

[Guyon]

I would hope NRA4LIFE is right about the meat. Like any other animal (excepting some species that really do need protection), I don't have a problem with it being hunted if the animal is put to some use. Use enough gun, make a clean, ethical kill, and you'll get no objections from my quarters.

Africa though? Not on my budget. My wife complains enough about what I spend on deer and turkey hunting.

I cancelled my subscription to Sports Afield recently because they changed their format to cater to "exotic" hunts in places I'm not going to visit anytime soon. And really, I don't need (or want) an elephant bearing down on me to get an adrenaline rush. All is takes is a spring gobbler answering my yelps to get my heart going. I'm pretty simple, I guess.

Still, H&H is right about the need to correct the uninformed victims of our Disney culture when it comes to the realities of game management. The same issues go on here in suburbs overrun by deer--just on a smaller scale.

[12-34hom]

Shooting a tusker does not interest me.

I've always wanted to hunt a Cape Buffalo.

12-34hom.

[H&Hhunter]

I would absolutely love to, but like many here an African hunt would cost more than I make in a year. Most of us are just working stiffs with kids and mortgages.

From what little research I've done, and none recently, you're looking at $50,000 USD and up for an African hunt by the time the dust clears.

Corriea & Sunray,

I am going to be a bit abrupt here and nip this misconception in the butt right here and now.
You can do a quality plains game hunt in Africa for under $5000 no problem.
You can do a real nice dangerous game hunt for buffalo or tuskless cow elephant for under $10,000 and that is after the dust has cleared.

If you want to spend $50,000 on a hunt you can but it would be a fullmeal full bag deal with elephant, lion, leapord, buff and all the plains game you could stand.

Corriea,
I am a working stiff as well with two kids and a mortage. Hunting africa is cheaper nowdays than many hunts right here in the good ole USA. It's all a matter of priorities. In any case my question is why would a hunter be morally opposed to the legal sport hunting of hunting and killing of elephants? It really has notthing to do with anybodies finances.

Now I think I'll have my servants get me my smoking jacket and slippers so that I can review the financials around my vast empire.
;)

12-34,

I agree with you and you should go hunt buff soon it's an unbelievable experience and unless you make less than $6000,00 a year you can even do it for less than you make in a year.:)

NRA and other,

All of the leagally killed elephants that I know of are processed for food.


I don't mean to be to rough with anybody. I would just like to clear up the price missconception about African hunting. It's not free and it will cost some money, but it's way more affordable than many think. I believe that Africa is the best hunting buy in the world. And it is available to all budgets.

I meet all sorts and book hunts for all income levels. I've booked cops, butchers and retired military people. I've also booked ungoddly rich people. But the fact of the matter is Africa is really quite an obtainable goal for most any hunter with the desire.

[Kestrel]

Elephant meat? I didn't know people ate the meat. What is it like? (I'm sure it tastes like squirrel, since chicken tastes so much like squirrel...)

Steve

[ARperson]

Elephants multiply like rabbits....

This is totally wrong. Elephants, being the large land mammals that they are, have one of the longest gestational periods of any animal, let alone of mammals, running on close to 2 years. And they mate later in life relative to other mammals (particularly rabbits), and they have fewer young per birth than rabbits do (one, maybe two, for as you said yourself, they can strip the local food sources down to nothing). And to make matters even worse, the rearing time for elephant young is quite long as well, running into multiple years. Meaning that from the point of conception to the "hit the road, youngin", there can be as much as 4 years. Aside from the mammalian nature of the reproductive systems, there isn't anything in elephant reproduction that can be compared to rabbit reproduction. If you are using this as a justification of hunting, better find some new info.

That being said, I want to make sure that it is clear I am not opposed to hunting elephants in principle. No Dumbo syndrome for me. But I do find it annoying as hell when completely inaccurate information is given, particularly as a justification for certain action.

[BigG]

...multiply like rabbits I think that is a figure of speech that means they are very destructive to the habitat if unchecked. Of course anybody with an encyclopedia can find out it takes two years to gestate an elephant calf.

How does it taste? According to Pondoro Taylor, it is very VERY chewy. In other words, among the toughest meat you'll ever try to masticate. :D He says africans love it.

[H&Hhunter]

But I do find it annoying as hell when completely inaccurate information is given, particularly as a justification for certain action.

ARperson,

Yes I am aware that in the order Proboscidea and in the species Loxodonta Africana does not mate & multiply exactly like a rabbit. This was a figure of speech. But thank you for picking out this inaccuracy as we wouldn't want any of our members to think they could start an elephant farm with just a few elephants and have it grow into a major elephant population anytime soon.

However, elephants in a healthy non stressed and low preditory enviroment can grow in numbers at an alrmingly fast rate. This is especially true when faced with limited range as this enormus land mamal takes a large range to keep up with it's caloric needs. And given the fact that elephants have ineffcient digestive systems means that they are forced to eat alot. All of this combined in a limited range calls for a limited number of elephants.

The fact of the matter is this. There are to many elephants in regards to the lands capability to carry them. I did not use the highest numbers that are published as they are really astounding. Wenge national park has mades claims that they have a carrying capacity of around 18,000 elephants they are currently carry around 60,000.

The reason that we have so many is that the legalized commercial harvest of elephants was stopped back in the 80's by pressure from the Leaky foundation and others in an attempt to stop elephant poaching. They made it illegal to deal in ivory and other elephant products. A nobel cause that did in fact put a huge dent in elephant poaching and by drying up the major markets. They did not however uinclude a contingency plan in regards to herd health and population control.This making it financially impossible for the parks to profit from the elephant and stopping the commercial hunting of elephants. This also made it immpossible for the parks to keep the elephant numbers at a healthy level.

I am not trying to JUSTIFY anything. If something is not done soon there is going to be a major die off in the elephants population. Commercial hunting is no longer a viable option. So tell me ARperson what is your solution?

[NRA4LIFE]

I did a simple internet search on KNP'selephant population and found a lot of good data. At the current rate of the population increase, there could be 20000 elephants there in 5 years, almost 3 times the holding capacity.

[SteveS]

Back to your original question about why anyone would be morally opposed to hunting elephants? There doesn't seem to be anyone here that is morally opposed. Personally, I can't say that I am interested in hunting elephants, but it is just a matter of personal preference. I certainly don't have a problems with anyone else doing it.

In terms of affording it, you are correct that it is about priorities. I am going on a caribou hunt next fall that I have been saving for during the past two years and it has required a fair amount of sacrifice. I can't say that it will get any easier. If I have some spare money I usually put it in my daughter's college fund.

[H&Hhunter]

Personally, I can't say that I am interested in hunting elephants, but it is just a matter of personal preference. I certainly don't have a problems with anyone else doing it.

Steve,


Yes that seems to be the case. :)

It's been interesting to me to read some of the posts which mirror many of my misconceptions about Africa and and African hunting before I started hunting there. I hope that I have (without insulting anyone hopefully) helped to clear some of these misconception up.

I have in the past however, been berated by members on this forum who've argued the imorality of african hunting and sport hunting in general. I'd really like to hear from them so as we can have a logical cool headed debate about this subject with the facts in full view.

I've always believed that most of our members are not conflicted when it comes to these activities. It's really interesting to me that some are however, and I'd like a clear picture as to why?

Does anybody believe that sport hunting is not the clear cut win win solution to this problem? And by this I'm not asking if you've got the money to do it. But in general.

[JGReed]

H&H Hunter,

I think you're posting the question in the wrong forum. I've noticed a lot of guys in the General Discussion, Legal & Political, etc who seem to be opposed to hunting in general but they probably don't browse here much.

For my part, I just don't have much of a jones to hunt anything I walk away from after killing...elephant, lion, or prarie dog. I love hunting deer, elk, and small game but that's partly because it's a great feeling to put them in the freezer later. Heck, I don't even shoot coyotes when I'm deer hunting. Why? I guess cuz I have no reason to. So I'm not "morally opposed" to anybody else doing it but I'm not likely to head down there anytime soon.

On a slightly different note, right now I'm reading "Lion Hunting in Somali-land" by C. J. Meliss. To be honest it makes me sad. In his day they didn't just hunt a lion...they hunted whole prides. This guy killed every single lion he came across. His "best day" was when he nailed all seven in a pride. Three juveniles, three females, and a male. I don't care how many lions there were back then, to me that's just lame.

[H&Hhunter]

This guy killed every single lion he came across. His "best day" was when he nailed all seven in a pride. Three juveniles, three females, and a male. I don't care how many lions there were back then, to me that's just lame.

JG

There are a whole bunch of people out there who don't understand the difference between hunting and culling. As they don't understand the difference between hunting and poaching or commercial shooting.

What you described is cull shooting or in that case they were probably trying to eliminate Lions from that region entirely. Just like we did to the buffalo.

I don't see how this compares to legal controlled sport hunting? But I do agree with you that it's tragedy the way some species were routed out and slaughtered. It is also going to be a major tragedy if something is not done about this elephant over population problem. And soon.

[SDC]

I fall into the same category as SteveS; I don't really see anything WRONG with hunting elephant, it's just that it doesn't really ATTRACT me. Now, cape buffalo, on the other hand... :) . I would dearly love to be able to hunt a few of those; they're tough, smart, and if you screw up, they'll make you pay for it.

[JGReed]

I understand culling very clearly, and I fully support sport hunting as an alternative. (even if I'm not inclined to do it). But I'm reading the book, and he wasn't culling and he wasn't on a concentrated effort to eliminate the population. He was on a self-financed safari and pulling the trigger on every lion he came across just because he could.

It's not related to your question about elephant hunting, which is why I wrote "On a slightly different note." It was just something I'd been thinking about since I'm reading the book at the moment.

I'll sum up my thoughts on elephant hunting in two sentences: "You wanna shoot 'em, that's your business. Not my cup o' joe."

[H&Hhunter]

SDC,

I agree with you on the Buff thing. I dearly love hunting buff. I'd rather hunt buff than just about anything. It's always exciting. I'd rather hunt buff than elephant anyday. But don't think that elephant hunting isn't dangerous for a second. It can be way more scary than buff hunting at times.

Just to clear this up I do not have a "jones" to hunt elephant in fact I don't really have a desire to hunt a trophy tusker. First off I couldn't afford to hunt a trophy elephant. I would however and have been involved in the taking of a cull elephant or an agressive farm raider or man killer. I wouldn't make a trip to specifically hunt elephants. I'd rather spend my money hunting buffalo anyday of the week.

I never turn down an opourtunity like going along on a trouble maker elephant hunt. It is an unbelievable experience. I'd also love to be involved in sorting out a man-eating lion. I won't turn that one down either if I ever have the chance.


JG

I agree with you and wasn't speaking of you in particular when writing the previous post. I was speaking in generalities.

Sounds like this Meliss character was yet another short sighted blood thirsty killer of early euro-african disdain. Of course in those days lions were considered vermin. So it's tough to place todays ethics on yesterdays actions.

[12-34hom]

If you were to go after big cat - what rifle - caliber - bullet combo who you use H&H??

From some of the accounts i've read the distances they can cover in a few seconds is unreal when they charge at full speed.

12-34hom.

[H&Hhunter]

12-34

I'd use my carbine, a scoped .375H&H would be the perfect cat gun if hunting off of a bait. I'd shoot 270gr X bullets or A-square lion loads in 300gr.

If I was tracking one in the thick stuff especially following up a wounded cat it would be my .470NE double loaded with 500gr woodleigh soft points. In semi open country I'd stick with my scoped .375. I'd have to have a look at the situation and the conditions of the day to be sure.


JG,
Please give me your definition of "sport" hunting. When I use the term sport hunting I am refering to anyone who hunts who doesn't have an immediate and life sustaining need to kill for food. People that hunt elk by choice and eat them because they want to not because they have to are sport hunters by definition.

People who kill animals because they have to to stay alive are substinance hunters.

I see no difference in me killing an animal and letting other people eat it as is the case with everything you kill in Africa verses me killing something and eatting it myself. In either case the animal is being utilized not wasted.

[kudu]

As I have been to S. Africa on a plains game hunt I would love the opporunity to take a big ole' elephant as well as several other species of plains game and dangerous game but I probably will never get the funds together again for another grand adventure. .....If I were to hit the lottery....

[HankB]

I'd shoot 270gr X bullets or A-square lion loads in 300gr.Here I'd differ a bit from H&H . . . I've only take one (1) lion, and used a 300 grain Swift A-Frame from my .375 H&H. Classic mushroom, the bullet retained 86% of its weight - impact was on the left shoulder, crossing down to the right, and recovered under the skin above the lion's right "elbow." A lot of bone was hit, and I don't know if an A-Square "Lion Load" would have penetrated as deeply . . . I've seen their extremely rapid expansion - even on game as light as impala - and frankly, haven't been impressed.

And . . . is A-Square still in business? I heard they'd closed their doors, and remember reading that the owner had been suspended from Safari Club International for ethical lapses with a customer . . .

[H&Hhunter]

Hank,

As of a year ago they were in business. I talked to them and ordered some bullets for my .458Lott.

You know come to think of it I've heard some bad stuff about the Lion Loads form A-Square as well. Belay the A-Square load I'd use X-bullets or 300gr Rhino Solid shanks. They are a bullet I've just recently been introduced to and so far have been very impressed. They are built like a lead nosed fail safe. That's about as close a description as I can give.

Hank where did you get your lion?

Kudu.

keep the faith friend never say never.;)

[kentucky bucky]

During some of my deer hunts in Eastern Kentucky I might as well been looking for elephants.:(

[Guyon]

kentucky: what would you have done if you had seen one (elephant, I mean)?

[smokemaker]

Have to agree with the Cape Buffalo thing. Never had huge interest in hunting Elephant, but a mean ol' Dagga Boy, that's another thing. I even bought a used Mauser Mk X in .458 Win just for that someday. That and the guy sold it to me for a song.

[H&Hhunter]

Smokemaker,

Can you post a picture of your mauser. A MK X is a serious piece of cool. I see all kinds of bush battered old mausers in Africa. I love those old things.

Hey for all of you guys that want to go buffalo hunting. Are you aware that if you can put a group together you can really get the prices down. I've got an outfitter a real good one in Tanzania who set up for groups. He's got a graduated price scale for larger groups.

I'm dead serious if any of you guys want to put a THR trip together we could do it fairly cheap. I don't have the prices in front of me but I'm thinking for 6 people that would be 3, 2X1 groups for a 7 day buffalo hunt. I need to check but I think you'll find it is very reasonable.

[HankB]

H&Hhunter:Hank where did you get your lion?H&H, it was in Zambia, the Yakobi part of the Mwanya concession, in the Luangwa Valley. We put baits up all over, but the lion hit the one barely 700 yards away from camp. :D

Rhino solid shank bullets? :confused: I'm not familiar with those - are they from one of those small custom makers?

[H&Hhunter]

Hank


No they are a major South African bullet maker. They are not yet available in this country.

[kentucky bucky]

The obvious answer here is throw my bottle away, but I'm not a drinker , so I would probably check into the nearest sanitarium. :what:

[Dr.Rob]

Have to admit I'm not up on Elephant Conservation.. I understand the biggest problem is some places have too many, other places have closed off traditional migration routes so there are too few.

I don't have any interest in Elephant as a game species, though reading about an exciting hunt sure is hackle raising.

Buffalo is the only one of the big 5 that really appeals to me.. though I have to admit... there is a small part of me that thinks Lion on foot would be one heck of a hunt.

Someday.. someday.

Rob

[Atticus]

I have nothing against it...but I can understand why some hunters might feel that they are simply too majestic to kill. Besides...they can kill you back... and toss you with their tusks..... and then stomp on you for awhile.

[H&Hhunter]

Besides...they can kill you back... and toss you with their tusks..... and then stomp on you for awhile.

Atticus,

That's kind of the reason why we hunt them.;)

The true essence of dangerous game hunting. The possibility that you may get killed. Kind of makes it a little more exciting than shooting impala huh?

[Art Eatman]

When I wuz just a kid, I roped a young bull. He hit the end of the string and the cinch broke and the back of the saddle banged me halfway to orbit. Some years later, I made six seconds (out of the required eight) on top of a Brahma bull. Once wuz enuf.

Had a horse run over me. He bit on my shoulder, leaving a little scar halfway down my bicep.

And these were basically non-hostile critters.

The point of all this is that if I'm s'posed to wallop Mr. Big & Mean, he's gonna get wallopped early and often until I observe stillness and quiet. I just flatout don't like being skeert.

:), Art

[Texasbagman]

H&Hhunter,

First off, Hello, I'm new around here.

I really appreciate your style and the info you have given. I will be financially able in a few years to go to Africa, and I'm glad to see that it will not cause me to go too far in debt to do it.

I know I would love to hunt and kill an elephant. But more than that I would love to hunt the plains game and maybe a buffalo.

Off topic, but the lion hunting video has been posted on several thread on gun boards I frequent. I have been arguing the same points you have over on GlockTalk, with little success.

Thanks for a voice of reason.

[enfield]

What kind of barbeque sauce would be appropriate for elephant? And what wine? :D

[H&Hhunter]

Texasbagman,

Welcome aboard. If I can be of any assistance, and by that I am not soliciting bussiness, rather just am offering a hand if wanted. Id be glad to share any experience with an African bound hunter.

I'd also be glad to accept any advise or experience anyone on this board has to offer.:)

[Mike Irwin]

Too much to eat in one sitting.

I've eaten elephant, out of a can, which was brought back from Africa by one of my coworkers at NRA.

I guess the best way to describe the taste is bison.

[Art Eatman]

Aw, Mike, it depends on how many folks you invite to supper.

I don't remember if it was in a newsreel or if it was one of those Martin/Johnson movies about Africa, but the film showed local villagers disassembling an elephant after it had been shot. It took less than an hour for all the meat to be hauled away; nothing left but the bones.

It is a common comment in all media about the general lack of protein in African villagers' diets. No way any meat will ever be wasted, except via poaching in the national parks. (No villages; dead animals often aren't found until they're already rotting.)

Art