Can we put an end to...


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Ragnar Danneskjold
October 17, 2010, 06:30 PM
People saying "if you don't think caliber X is good for ____, than why don't you volunteer to get shot with it" or other variations on that theme? That sentiment seems to come up over and over, especially when you have people defending their choice of a low end caliber like .22 and others for CCW. That is a terrible standard for any sort of caliber choice. As a poster noted on another thread, I wouldn't volunteer to get shot with a pellet gun, but that doesn't mean a Crosman air pistol from Wal Mart is a good CCW choice.

Someone not wanting to get shot with caliber X does not mean that caliber will effectively stop a deadly threat. Please, stop using that as an excuse.

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Justin
October 17, 2010, 06:33 PM
I don't know about a moratorium on that particular line of thinking.

After all, seeing someone spout that particular line is kind of like a sign saying "Do not take this person seriously. Ever."

mbogo
October 17, 2010, 06:33 PM
If you put an end to people saying that, how would you know when you were dealing with an idiot? :D

mbogo

mack
October 17, 2010, 07:17 PM
Hey, if you don't think .22lr is an adequate stopper then why don't you volunteer to get shot with it? The fact is that more people who die from being shot with a .22lr - die from being shot with a .22lr than any other cartridge. The .22lr shot out of a 1911 with a .22lr conversion kit will be just as lethal as any other .22lr. And the fact remains that the elite of the US military still often choose to use the 1911 platform. The accuracy and power of the .22lr is almost unmatched and legendary - it is a known fact that Russian tanks have been taken out by shooting a .22lr down the barrel of the tanks main gun thereby exploding the chambered tank round and exploding the tank.

And there is a reason that the .22lr is the cartridge of choice for professional assassins - because it travels faster than the speed of sound and is therefore silent.

Any self-defense expert - if they are worth their salt - will tell you that they would rather carry a gun chambered in .22lr for self-defense over carrying any other caliber of ammo without a gun.

Finally, the .22lr for years was the standard for slaughtering farm animals sent to slaughter - including 2,000 lb cattle - with that kind of stopping power it is easily a match for Grizzlies or any other predator - animal or human.

writerinmo
October 17, 2010, 07:21 PM
Mack, you really should post a disclaimer on posts like these for those of us on cold medications... I had to reread it like five times to make sure what my brain was telling me it said was actually what you had written! Love it...

Jbabbler
October 17, 2010, 07:36 PM
Ok, but only if we can ban "I would never trust my life to a gun that only cost $XXX.00 "

KodiakBeer
October 17, 2010, 07:39 PM
I always find the front sight prevents me from jamming the .22 far enough up their nostril to be effective. I'd take the front sight off but we all know sight picture is everything!

herkyguy
October 17, 2010, 07:46 PM
let's not forget that long range performance of the mighty .22lr. I know for a fact that it shoots perfectly straight out to 784 yards before dropping at all and it is too small to be affected by wind but still big enough to vaporize cattle. another reason snipers exclusively use the .22lr.

writerinmo
October 17, 2010, 07:51 PM
Dont forget that the soft lead melts at super-sonic speed, destroying any tell-tale markings that could be used to trace it back to the weapon.

mack
October 17, 2010, 07:55 PM
Jbabble wrote: "Ok, but only if we can ban "I would never trust my life to a gun that only cost $XXX.00 " "


Oh come on now - you can't be serious - life is priceless - that is why I have never paid less than 1,000 dollars or more for any of the hipoints, jennings, of davis firearms that I carry for self-defense. Also regardless of the firearm you should only use ammo for self-defense that you have already shot out of the gun and therefore know will function properly - that is why I always reload all my carry ammo - even though it is a pain to dig those bullets out of the berm.

daorhgih
October 17, 2010, 08:10 PM
Best humor I've seen since John Browning came out of the gave to straighten out good ole' Gaston Glock. Is there any way to work them in here??

NavyLCDR
October 17, 2010, 08:20 PM
it is a known fact that Russian tanks have been taken out by shooting a .22lr down the barrel of the tanks main gun thereby exploding the chambered tank round and exploding the tank.

I would love to see that mythbusters episode!

mack
October 17, 2010, 08:46 PM
daorhgih: "Best humor I've seen since John Browning came out of the grave to straighten out good ole' Gaston Glock. Is there any way to work them in here??"

Please do not be disrespectful or disingenuous - it is a well known apocryphal fact that Gaston Glock is the unclaimed son of John Moses Browning - as Glock’s mothers family was not accepting of their daughter being married to a man who already had multiple wives in the Mormon tradition of polygamy- they therefore married her to a second husband to cover up the fact she was already married. That fact is substantiated by even a cursory examination of the life of Gaston Glock and a comparison of the Browning Hi-power and the Glock pistols.

The facts - both Browning and Glock have designed and produced guns - both Browning and Glock designed pistols - both the Hi-power and the Glock were originally chambered in 9mm - both pistols have hi-capacity magazines - both pistols are or have been used widely around the world. Sure some people say - but what about the 1911 - well of course the answer is obvious - the 1911 chambered in 45acp is considered perfection in a combat pistol - John Browning died before he could perfect the Hi-power and its design had to be finished by another designer who did a great job - but not a perfect job - therefore it was up to Gaston Glock to perfect it and thus the Glock 17 - the worlds first perfect pistol in 9mm.

I wish more posters here would be respectful of the facts and the truth - I only make up facts and truth that I can verify.

Jbabbler
October 17, 2010, 08:50 PM
Jbabble wrote: "Ok, but only if we can ban "I would never trust my life to a gun that only cost $XXX.00 " "





Oh come on now - you can't be serious - life is priceless - that is why I have never paid less than 1,000 dollars or more for any of the hipoints, jennings, of davis firearms that I carry for self-defense. Also regardless of the firearm you should only use ammo for self-defense that you have already shot out of the gun and therefore know will function properly - that is why I always reload all my carry ammo - even though it is a pain to dig those bullets out of the berm.

True, I always carry pre-expanded JHP's. Unfortunately I have to shoot 70gr .32's from my 50 G.I. to do it but I know I'll never have to worry about expansion.

At the last gun show I saw a vendor with some Keltec P11's for $199.00 I would never trust my life to a $199 gun so I offered him $750 for it. He resisted, we haggled, I walked away and pretended to be disgusted. Later, as I walked by on my way to the door, he motioned me over and we worked a deal. In the end I got it for $725 out the door. Not quite what I was hoping but still better than the original price.

smartshot
October 17, 2010, 08:53 PM
yeah man, this conversation is weird

Carter
October 17, 2010, 08:56 PM
I would love to hear Mack's "facts" on the AR-15 vs AK debate. :D :evil:


I've seen a pellet gun take down a boar/pig with a good shot to the head. Wouldn't carry it for SD, wouldn't wanna be shot with it either.
Personally, I don't see why people get so worked up over caliber wars. It doesn't effect someone personally, unless you have highly over worked feelings that a talk show wouldn't even want to touch.

I second this ban...except for those who wish to show their stupidity.

CraigC
October 17, 2010, 09:03 PM
IMHO, it's not to be taken literally. More of a "put your money where your mouth is" sort of sentiment. In other words, if you think a particular cartridge is useless for any particular task, or that a particular firearm is only effective within a certain range, volunteer.

mack
October 17, 2010, 09:06 PM
Jbabbler - I feel your pain. I too have a Kel-tec P11 - sure it was reliable out of the box - sure I could put all the rounds in the ten ring from seven yards - sure it was concealable and light weight - but I was not so much a fool as to trust my life to it. Unfortunately, I had bought my P11 from a wholesaler at list price and was unable to haggle as you did. But there is a simple but brillant solution - I pawned it - and then insisted on paying one grand to get it out of hock. At first the pawnbroker thought I was nuts - but I explained the reason for doing so and then he was very helpful and even showed me a lot of other high dollar hipoints, jennings, and davis pistols.

Jbabbler
October 17, 2010, 09:06 PM
IMHO, it's not to be taken literally. More of a "put your money where your mouth is" sort of sentiment. In other words, if you think a particular cartridge is useless for any particular task, or that a particular firearm is only effective within a certain range, volunteer.

Hmmmmm................







................ Nope. :)

MrWesson
October 17, 2010, 09:10 PM
I want to carry a sling shot.. you say its not adequate let me shoot you in the forehead with a rock.. I'm right!

Erik M
October 17, 2010, 09:26 PM
People saying "if you don't think caliber X is good for ____, than why don't you volunteer to get shot with it".

We can stop as soon as people admit that 5.56x45 is superior in every way to 7.62x39, and when people admit that NAA mini's are just as effective as a glock 17 for self defense.

(its a circular argument you see lol)

mack
October 17, 2010, 09:32 PM
The AK is just a clone of the AR design. During WWII Stoner designed the AR for US forces - it was never used because the original was designed to fire the lethal .22lr and was therefore in violation of the Geneva convention. However, Stalin’s spies working on the Manhattan project (which was an atomic bomb program used to cover up the highly lethal AR program) discovered the real weapons secret that the US was trying to conceal which was the AR platform. Needless to say the Soviets rushed it into production - making superficial changes to the basic design and brilliantly changing the caliber to a less lethal .30 cal in order to wound instead of outright kill which would tax enemy resources more having to care for wounded soldiers instead of just bury dead ones. Many historians misread the implied threat that Truman made to Stalin at their summit with Churchill before the end of WWII - thinking he was making veiled reference to the atomic bomb when of course he was talking about he AR. Of course Stalin already knew about it and the Soviets shocked the west with their production of the AK shortly there-after.

Later the US responded by producing the AR and shockingly doing so with almost a .22 cal round - though of course it was not an actual .22lr. Some may say well they are significantly different and the AK is more reliable or the AR is more accurate- well test it yourself if you don’t believe me or real genuine faux history. I did - I took an AK and an AR - I left both outside for a week - I then dropped both into a muddy pig pen and left them for another week - then I took both and filled both the actions and the barrels with quick set concrete and let them sit overnight. The next day I took them to the range and tried a variety of ammo - both guns reliably failed to fire - in fact not once could I work the action of either gun even after beating them repeatedly with a twenty pound sledge. So much for the myth that one is more reliable or accurate than the other. Neither showed any appreciable difference in accuracy when not firing even with a variety of ammo.

PuddlePirate
October 17, 2010, 09:54 PM
Hey, if you don't think .22lr is an adequate stopper then why don't you volunteer to get shot with it? The fact is that more people who die from being shot with a .22lr - die from being shot with a .22lr than any other cartridge. The .22lr shot out of a 1911 with a .22lr conversion kit will be just as lethal as any other .22lr. And the fact remains that the elite of the US military still often choose to use the 1911 platform. The accuracy and power of the .22lr is almost unmatched and legendary - it is a known fact that Russian tanks have been taken out by shooting a .22lr down the barrel of the tanks main gun thereby exploding the chambered tank round and exploding the tank.

And there is a reason that the .22lr is the cartridge of choice for professional assassins - because it travels faster than the speed of sound and is therefore silent.

Any self-defense expert - if they are worth their salt - will tell you that they would rather carry a gun chambered in .22lr for self-defense over carrying any other caliber of ammo without a gun.

Finally, the .22lr for years was the standard for slaughtering farm animals sent to slaughter - including 2,000 lb cattle - with that kind of stopping power it is easily a match for Grizzlies or any other predator - animal or human.
I remember back in the war...we were running low on everything...all the heavy weps platoon had left for mortars was about 500 rounds of .22lr. That was the quietest, most accurate mortar barrage I have ever witnessed...not very effective though, as I recall.:D

Sam1911
October 17, 2010, 10:18 PM
This thread has renewed my faith. :D This should be a sticky! We can now simply cite this thread as an appropriate closing to any threads that devolve into "WDYVTGSWO?"

Awesome!

W.E.G.
October 17, 2010, 10:32 PM
I don't think the .257 Roberts is a very good sniper round, but if I got shot in the head with one, I might change my mind.

MaggiesPapaw
October 17, 2010, 10:46 PM
You had me shaking my head at this point:

>>>And there is a reason that the .22lr is the cartridge of choice for professional assassins - because it travels faster than the speed of sound and is therefore silent.<<<

but I kept reading. Glad I did ;)

Iam2taz
October 17, 2010, 10:51 PM
Excuse me gentlemen (and ladies), but slingshots have been proven very accurate and deadly. Don't knock the slingshot user because he believes in old fashion types of self-defence and reliance. Just ask Goliath's brothers... David took out their brother with one. Hit in the forehead he was rendered unconsious. (I have been working on the technique. My stones seem to be somewhat smaller.) Of course Goliath was over 7' tall and a lad had to go out there with an oldfashioned slingshot of hand sewn leather, he needed big ones! :what: (Several ounces at approximately 25-30 fps, measurement was very difficult at the time.) Of course, he followed up his head shot with a slice to the neck to be sure.
I have found that swinging my rock chucker out of the hand made holder is not as difficult as I thought considering the amount of practice I do. It does get some what noisy when I sling my rocks at the target. David must have used a silencing device or he would have driven everyone crazy. I will have to do some more research to determine the exact type of silencer he used.;)
I will continue research. Should you decide to try a sling shot of your own, beware of overhead fans if used in doors. You may want to consider one of the newer high tech models at your local rock chucking store. :p

mack
October 17, 2010, 10:51 PM
Erik M wrote: "NAA mini's are just as effective as a glock 17 for self defense."

Well having shot myself in the head with both - albiet on seperate occasions - with the Glock when demonstrating safety to a class of school kids and with the NAA mini when trying to pull it out of my ponytail where I concealed carried it - I can say without hesitation that both left me effectively brain dead. Currently I carry a Glock 17 with a .22lr conversion installed - but I am looking for a NAA mini chambered in 9mm.

MaggiesPapaw
October 17, 2010, 10:57 PM
>>>I will continue research. Should you decide to try a sling shot of your own, beware of overhead fans if used in doors. You may want to consider one of the newer high tech models at your local rock chucking store. <<<

Indoors is the ideal location for the new horizontal sling technique. The vertical sling will certainly give you trouble in the area of ceiling fans.
Try it, you may like it (Youtube may have an instructional videa). Once perfected it is much more suitable for the prone, seated, or kneeling positions, but vertical will always be king for running.

ArizonaJohn
October 17, 2010, 11:02 PM
It's all fun and games until someone gets shot with a .257 Roberts.

christcorp
October 17, 2010, 11:06 PM
People saying "if you don't think caliber X is good for ____, than why don't you volunteer to get shot with it" or other variations on that theme? That sentiment seems to come up over and over, especially when you have people defending their choice of a low end caliber like .22 and others for CCW. That is a terrible standard for any sort of caliber choice. As a poster noted on another thread, I wouldn't volunteer to get shot with a pellet gun, but that doesn't mean a Crosman air pistol from Wal Mart is a good CCW choice.

Someone not wanting to get shot with caliber X does not mean that caliber will effectively stop a deadly threat. Please, stop using that as an excuse.
you definitely have a point. But until the ignorant people stop saying things like: "A 32acp isn't an effective self defense caliber" or "Would you trust your family's life with that"; along of course with the belief that if the gun doesn't cost at least $400.

So, educate people, and stop them from spouting such ignorance, and I'm sure we can get those who talk about voluntarily being shot with a particular caliber as being the benchmark as for it's capabilities, to stop saying their stuff.

Old krow
October 17, 2010, 11:10 PM
Someone not wanting to get shot with caliber X does not mean that caliber will effectively stop a deadly threat. Please, stop using that as an excuse.

Didn't even know we were using the alphabet on bullets yet... is X bigger or smaller than a 9mm:confused:

Gord
October 17, 2010, 11:12 PM
Can we also move to immediately ban anyone who replies to a thread with:

"Oh great, another Glock copycat/clone."

hardworker
October 17, 2010, 11:14 PM
Monday's New Headlines:

"Gun Owners all over the nation willingly allowed themselves to be shot by other gun owners to demonstrate lack of power in ammunition after reading internet forum. Police baffled"

mack
October 17, 2010, 11:17 PM
While I won't venture to comment on the use of sling shots for self-defense since I only comment on those issues on which I am inexperienced and fully uninformed - but I feel compelled to comment on the circumstances surrounding the death of that Philistine Goliath the alleged giant and the ammunition used.

I don't mean to nitpick - but having known the pathologist who did the autopsy and having read the autopsy report I can reliably say that the findings showed that Goliath did in fact die from blunt force trauma to the head caused by a single missile from a sling shot - the decapitation was merely a pro-forma show for style points after the fact - David was after all a well known musician and performer.

The missile or ammunition in question was a well known lion load commonly used by Sheppard’s for flock defense and fully capable of killing even the largest man. It was a .22 caliber 70 grain copper solid hollow point contained in a round 900 grain granite sabot.

Carter
October 17, 2010, 11:19 PM
This by far has been my favorite thread ever to read.

Gun Owners all over the nation willingly allowed themselves to be shot by other gun owners to demonstrate lack of power in ammunition after reading internet forum. Police baffled
And the Brady's would celebrate.

I think I've seen more gun owners get flamed at caliber or manufacturer differences than people like the Brady Campaign.

MrWesson
October 17, 2010, 11:21 PM
can we also move to immediately ban anyone who replies to a thread with:

"oh great, another glock copycat/clone."

yes please!!!

Iam2taz
October 17, 2010, 11:29 PM
Mack! - You are so correct... Your research once again is unsurpassed in detail. I stand corrected! LOL

Just read some excerpts of this post to my wife. She thinks it is very funny!

mack
October 17, 2010, 11:36 PM
I too grow weary of the Glock clone/copy comments. Every informed person knows that the Glock is just an iteration of a Browning design - just like S&W and even Colt copied off of Browning. I mean honestly - take a Colt Walker and hold it up next to a 1911 - it's the same gun people.

hardworker
October 17, 2010, 11:48 PM
It's been a while since the colt walker was brought up in a caliber war. So why not start here?

Extrapolating the FBI statistics on one stop shots, the colt walker can be expected to stop an assailant 95.4345663 +/- .000000001% of the time. If you don't believe that, you should volunteer to take one in the chest from it.

22-rimfire
October 17, 2010, 11:58 PM
I miss the 22 discussions for self defense. I wouldn't want to get shot by a 22 either, but I generally choose a slightly larger caliber for self defense. But as they say.... if that is all I had, then I'd use it and probably feel pretty confident about protecting myself oveall. Went for years with only a 22 as the only loaded gun in my abode even though I had larger caliber handguns, rifles, shotguns, etc. That has changed.

I generally don't see the Glock comments as I seldom visit the semi-auto pistol sub forum. Yes, I have a Glock or two.

I mean honestly - take a Colt Walker and hold it up next to a 1911 - it's the same gun people.

That is pretty humorous and made me smile.

mack
October 18, 2010, 12:00 AM
Iam2taz wrote "Mack! - You are so correct..."

I humbly thank you for your praise - I am glad you did not fall for the second shepherd with a sling shot in the grassy glen conspiracy theorists or the magic stone nuts.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 18, 2010, 12:14 AM
I humbly thank you for your praise - I am glad you did not fall for the second shepherd with a sling shot in the grassy glen conspiracy theorists or the magic stone nuts.

Mack you seriously need to think about starting a career in writing for Letterman!! Lord knows his lead in jokes have been getting downright anemic!!! You sir have brightened my otherwise dull and boring day!! Thanks

lookshigh123
October 18, 2010, 12:38 AM
starting a career ? Nice idea.

MTMilitiaman
October 18, 2010, 12:50 AM
And while we are petitioning for a cease fire of certain drivel, could we please stop with the "rifles penetrate too much for HD" and most of the over penetration crap in general? That is getting really old, and just isn't true.

Please? Pretty please?

DenaliPark
October 18, 2010, 12:51 AM
People saying "if you don't think caliber X is good for ____, than why don't you volunteer to get shot with it" or other variations on that theme? That sentiment seems to come up over and over, especially when you have people defending their choice of a low end caliber like .22 and others for CCW. That is a terrible standard for any sort of caliber choice. As a poster noted on another thread, I wouldn't volunteer to get shot with a pellet gun, but that doesn't mean a Crosman air pistol from Wal Mart is a good CCW choice.

Someone not wanting to get shot with caliber X does not mean that caliber will effectively stop a deadly threat. Please, stop using that as an excuse.
Oh absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more, further, can't we all agree to end those ridiculous, "what load works best on charging bear" threads? :)

pacerdude
October 18, 2010, 01:33 AM
Hardworker, your post about monday's news headlines just made my night. I can now sleep well after having read that :D.

gbw
October 18, 2010, 01:39 AM
Ok, but while we're banning stuff, not handguns I hope, how about adding these:

"YMMV". Very humble, a writer admitting his answer may not be perfect in every single case. Got it. Actually everyone already knew that. After all this is the internet, and Everyone's MMV. Or YMM not V. Who cares?

"Having said that" and variations. More honest to say, "now that I've tried to cover my backside...". Also, since "that" was, in fact, just said or you cannot say 'having said that' in the first place, this one seems to fall into the department of redundancy department.

ccjcc81
October 18, 2010, 02:13 AM
This is a good thread.

Gord
October 18, 2010, 03:28 AM
I generally don't see the Glock comments

Seems like there's at least one in every thread about a plastic gun. Glock, you see, retains all intellectual property rights related to making a gun out of anything but metal. Lawsuits against the estates of John Dillinger and his lawyer are ongoing. If anyone ever makes a steel-framed Glock clone, untold numbers of heads will explode.

Furthermore:

Effective immediately, PGO aficionados now have three chances, beginning as of such time that Dave McC or Lee Lapin weigh in on their threads, to submit that either 1) PGOs are indeed laughably inefficient [unless the specific quality being discussed is waste of space] novelties, or 2) that PGOs are just as good as a full stock, but they are too weenie to demonstrably test the hypothesis [whereupon they will be required to post a pic of themselves in a tube top and stilettos with PGO in question]. Failure to comply will result in a ban on the grounds of "conspiracy of accessory to manslaughter."

The only authorized reply to threads making mention of Extreme Shock ammo (unless a LOL is appended directly after) is, "Your mom is a Fang Face!" Further insinuations regarding "Explosive Entry" are permissible, but only via PM.

A donation page will be made available to contribute towards funding for the newly-formed THR Carnivore Research and Provision (CRAP) team. This team will provide timely response to CRAP-worthy "What caliber for x?" threads by applying the scientific method: namely, a portable barricade system will be erected around the originating member's place of domicile; a variety of small arms in calibers ranging from .45ACP to 12-gauge will be provided for testing purposes; and an appropriate example animal will be introduced into the enclosure. By these means we endeavor to obtain objective data related to the dispatch of dangerous game by the average suburbanite. THR/CRAP retains the right to pursue reimbursement from the user or user's estate for the removal, cleaning and/or replacement of any firearms lost in, or recovered from, the user's bodily orifice(s) by HAZMAT personnel at the conclusion of the experiment.

KodiakBeer
October 18, 2010, 05:24 AM
Oh absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more, further, can't we all agree to end those ridiculous, "what load works best on charging bear" threads?

The .22 is excellent for shooting your way out of a bear.

mack
October 18, 2010, 12:30 PM
It is best to use that gun and caliber that you are most competent and familiar with for self-defense, whether against human or animal predators. Given that the majority of shooters practice with and shoot the .22lr more than any other cartridge - it is obviously the hands down choice.

Also it is past time to put an end to the myth that bears are somehow more dangerous than many other common critters. Bears - per scientists - are biologically relatives of the dog family - and anyone with half a brain knows that one is much more likely to be bitten or attacked by a vicious poodle than a bear. I myself can attest to this fact having survived numerous poodle attacks, whilst never having survived a single bear attack. Given the fact that poodles are much more dangerous than bears - it only stands to reason that one should use a recognized "poodle shooter" caliber as a self-defense round. While some may prefer the .223 - educated shooters are aware that the .22lr is the preferred round.

As to penetration - I have found that women shooters who are usually more educated on the topic than their male counterparts - thus they are much more concerned about penetration as they are aware that uncontrolled penetration can result in unintended consequences including the significant swelling of bodily tissues and cause months of unnecessary physical pain and discomfort - and result in thousands of dollars in unnecessary medical expenses and millions of dollars of ancillary expenses over a lifetime.

I can't tell you the number of my macho male peers who think that excessive or uncontrolled penetration is the key to where it is at - "better to much penetration than too little" - only to discover months down the road - that they will be paying a lifetime of bills for their thoughtlessness.

Please people, use the brains god gave you and be prepared. As the old saying goes "Si vis pacem, para bellum," Flavorus Larrius Vegetis Cucumberus - meaning if you want salad, use the tomato.

CoRoMo
October 18, 2010, 12:51 PM
Put a SEAL team, armed only with Marlin 60 rifles & iron sights, up against a handful of average Taliban who are armed with Mk 14 Mod 0 rifles & top tier optics.

We'll get to the bottom of the whole 'mindset, skillset, toolset' school of thinking.

mcdonl
October 18, 2010, 02:24 PM
Put a SEAL team, armed only with Marlin 60 rifles & iron sights, up against a handful of average Taliban who are armed with Mk 14 Mod 0 rifles & top tier optics.

We'll get to the bottom of the whole 'mindset, skillset, toolset' school of thinking.

MODS.. where do we vote for best post ever?

Buck Snort
October 18, 2010, 03:44 PM
mbogo wrote: "If you put an end to people saying that, how would you know when you were dealing with an idiot?"

mack wrote: "Hey, if you don't think .22lr is an adequate stopper then why don't you volunteer to get shot with it?"

Well HELLO!!

burley
October 18, 2010, 03:53 PM
Just as annoying as the, "would you take one in the chest? Didn't think so" argument, is the, "intent of the founding fathers" argument. ie "The founding fathers never intended forr you to have an AK-47 and 100,000 rounds of ammo, they intended for you to have a musket." The FFs did their thing and they're dead and long gone. Please don't tell me their intent as if you had lunch with them this afternoon.

"John Adams said Thomas Jefferson would take a .380 round to the chest, no problem, but there's no way he'd take a .38 + P!" :p

MinnMooney
October 18, 2010, 03:59 PM
I agree that that line of "reasoning" is adolecent and dangerous but no one is here to stop someone from saying stupid things (with the possible exception of the mods).

Two to three years ago, the .380 ACP was concidered way too weak for protection but now it's one of the more popular carry tools. It's better than throwing rocks and the .380 is totally concealable.

mack
October 18, 2010, 04:03 PM
Seals with marlin 60's against Taliban - maybe - but they wouldn't stand a chance against the mighty Quinn - cause when Quinn the Eskimo gets here then the seals are gonna run from him.

mack
October 18, 2010, 04:22 PM
"The great object is that every man be armed and everyone who is able may have a AK or AR and one hundred thousand rounds of ammo" - Patrick Henry


"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed with an AR or AK and one hundred thousand rounds of ammo." -Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-8.

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed with an AK or AR and one hundred thousand rounds of ammo." -Thomas Jefferson.

CoRoMo
October 18, 2010, 04:30 PM
mack
Seals with marlin 60's against Taliban - maybe - ...
Does that mean .22lr is enough? That mindset & skillset can make up for "poor" toolset?

mack
October 18, 2010, 05:27 PM
CoRoMo wrote: "Does that mean .22lr is enough? That mindset & skillset can make up for "poor" toolset?"

Maybe - though I would be very concerned about the whole flipper vs hand issue. Seals having flippers instead of hands might have serious issues with trigger control and with loading those .22lr rounds. I know seals are very trainable and can even balance balls on the end of their nose - so I assume they could do the same with rifles. Plus the definition of average soldier or average taliban is problematic - Audie Murphy and Alvin York would prior to their combat experience have been considered average soldiers. So maybe - circumstances make so much difference - long range contact or short range contact - in the water or out of the water. Have the seals had combat training with the marlin and have they had hand to hand eskimo training? Sorry to blubber on but the specific details and circumstances of any general senario make so much difference as do the qualities of the individuals involved.

thorazine
October 18, 2010, 05:30 PM
People saying "if you don't think caliber X is good for ____, than why don't you volunteer to get shot with it" or other variations on that theme?

Instead,

How about you marry it?

Or sleep with it? RAWR! =D

sm
October 18, 2010, 05:50 PM
Justin wrote in post 2:
I don't know about a moratorium on that particular line of thinking.

After all, seeing someone spout that particular line is kind of like a sign saying "Do not take this person seriously. Ever."

I make a motion we apply this to some other thread titles and lines of discussions.

No, I do not want to list what these titles and lines of discussions are, in fact prefer to leave it open, especially when we have a rash of trolls that sign up.

Why?
Well for one, I/we need to leave our options open, and two, how else are moderators gonna get bashed and trashed around here by trolls and others if we have every darn thing spelled out, thus leaving common sense out of the equation?

*smile*

SharpsDressedMan
October 18, 2010, 06:11 PM
Well, I have to just jump it and add to the "founding fathers" sidebar. It doesn't take too much investigation to conclude that our founding fathers intended for the private citizen to be armed, without infringement, just as any governmental troop be armed, should we ever have to stand, AGAIN, against the government, as they did. We are already hopelessly "outgunned" technology-wise, as "the government" has severely tried to restrict the TYPES of weapons we hold, but we still have some teeth. More than the teeth, though, we have to be willing to "bite", and that might mean biting a bear on the ass and hanging on until he cries "uncle", or gets tired of dragging us behind him.

KodiakBeer
October 18, 2010, 06:16 PM
Speaking of Alvin York, they recently dug up some of the 942 Germans he killed with his Winchester Model 52 and found .22 slugs still actively ricocheting around in some of the craniums. They said it sounded like an olympic level ping pong game. Scary! The French archeologist immediately surrendered.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 18, 2010, 06:23 PM
Speaking of Alvin York, they recently dug up some of the 942 Germans he killed with his Winchester Model 52 and found .22 slugs still actively ricocheting around in some of the craniums. They said it sounded like an olympic level ping pong game. Scary! The French archeologist immediately surrendered.

Mack, You have competition!!!!!!! :D

Mike J
October 18, 2010, 08:21 PM
Mack you seriously need to think about starting a career in writing for Letterman!! Lord knows his lead in jokes have been getting downright anemic!!! You sir have brightened my otherwise dull and boring day!! Thanks

Actually I was thinking that Mack should be careful. If the government were to see his posts they would almost certainly offer him a job writing news releases.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 18, 2010, 08:44 PM
Good point Mike!!

AKElroy
October 18, 2010, 09:22 PM
Mack you seriously need to think about starting a career in writing for Letterman!!

Stop it. You'll only encourage him.

I think this has gone just about far enough, young man. You are all raising quite a ruckuss with this tomfoolery. Now brush your teath & head upstairs.

52grain
October 18, 2010, 09:38 PM
Best humor I've seen since John Browning came out of the gave to straighten out good ole' Gaston Glock. Is there any way to work them in here??

If this is a reference to another thread, can you please post the link?

mack
October 18, 2010, 10:41 PM
KodiakBeer wrote: "and found .22 slugs still actively ricocheting around in some of the craniums."

Oh, good point, I had forgotten all about the richochet factor.... I'm so embarassed.

AKElroy wrote: "I think this has gone just about far enough, young man. You are all raising quite a ruckuss with this tomfoolery. Now brush your teath & head upstairs."

But we haven't even gotten to mean gun shop owners, dumb customers, .45 acp vs. 9mm, .50 bmg vs .22lr, .308 vs 30-06, .270 vs 30-06, motor oil vs gun oil, shoot to stop vs shoot to kill, scopes vs red dots vs iron sights, lasers yes or no, leather vs synthetic holsters, wood vs plastic, the ultimate survival gun, the ultimate gun, and of course the grandfather of them all the brown bess or the kentucky rifle.

What year did John Browning invent the Thompson Submachine gun and which side used it more effectively in the Civil War?

Does anyone make a small of the back holster for a Colt Walker? I'm only asking because I keep getting unwanted attention when I carry it in my Thunderwear.

Tim the student
October 18, 2010, 10:46 PM
This is the funniest thread I have read in some time.

I love when people give that whole "...why don't you let me shoot you with ____" line.

Personally, I think I'll just say [dwight schrute]False, bears eat beets![/dwight schrute]

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 18, 2010, 11:13 PM
I remember seeing one that said he would be willingly shot with a .32 ACP and invited someone to do it. Bet he would have changed his mind when he stood downrange and the gun was raised.

MaggiesPapaw
October 18, 2010, 11:14 PM
>>>What year did John Browning invent the Thompson Submachine gun and which side used it more effectively in the Civil War? <<<<

History shows he began his work on the Thompson in 1822, but didn't perfect it until around 1845. It was considered a military secret of national security magnitude, therefore was not patented until the 20th century, and then only because a Freedom of Information request made by the founder of the HSA (Homeland Security Association), the predecessor to the HOA (Home Owners Association).
Obviously, the West used it best in the Civil War, as they used the .22lr version rather than the .45acp version, as they could carry three times the ammo, (by weight) and could get 300 rounds in the drums.
The North as well as the South were adamant in their commitment to black powder and percussion caps. The short-sighted bean counters considered the cost of individually cased rounds vs powder by the keg to be a luxury no army could afford during time of war.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
October 19, 2010, 12:13 AM
LOL, Man you guys are cracking this poor old man up too much.

Texas Pride
October 19, 2010, 01:00 AM
Anyone who is serious about self defense knows that the "which caliber is better" debate has been resolved, in light of the awesome devastation that is dolled out by the mighty Judge. Firing the long-respected .410 shotshell, that handgun-length barrel really makes it a sawed-off shotgun (they barely got around the law on that one) which makes it even deadlier than most rifles. Those five 00 buck pellets each carry the same power as a .45 ACP, and their round shape causes them to curve throughout the body (because the rifling made them spin you see) and it's like a swarm of bees twisting through the body. This results in extreme hdrostatic shock, and kills instantly.

It can also fire the .45 Colt, but that's mostly for legal reasons to get around being a sawed-off. The .45 "Long Colt" (which has been its true designation since its creation in 1911) is a fine pistol cartridge, but can't compare to a shell holding 5 pellets of the same size.

Gord
October 19, 2010, 03:21 AM
Or sleep with it?

I'm sure that somewhere out there exist videos of a certain nature involving a 20mm Vulcan round. Rule 34 is unflagging and infallible.

KodiakBeer
October 19, 2010, 05:38 AM
Few people know that John Moses Browning flew his souped up Spad all the way to Berlin, parachuted into the Kaisers drawing room and chased him around with a 1895 potato digger machine gun chambered in .22 LR. He'd have killed him, but the Kaiser threw up his hands and gave him a secret Masonic signal, so JMB had no choice but to spare him. He did shoot a couple of orderlies though, and a butler, and some guy named Otto who was just delivering sausages.

Gord
October 19, 2010, 12:33 PM
and some guy named Otto who was just delivering sausages.

Otto
1862 - 1914
Never Forget - Never Forgive

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/548/forotto.png

HGUNHNTR
October 19, 2010, 01:00 PM
"If it was good enough for xyz then its good enough for me!"

Cliche's and catch phrases typically a crutch for those unable to formulate their own original opinions. I totally disregard the person if their post is full of them.

Dain Bramage
October 19, 2010, 01:22 PM
you should volunteer to take one in the chest from it.

Heck, I don't even want to get hit with a Walker used as a club. A caveman could've brought down mastodon with that thing.

Sam1911
October 19, 2010, 01:48 PM
"If it was good enough for xyz then its good enough for me!"

Amen! If I have to hear one more time what some pith-helmeted 19th century holdover did with a .275 Rigby, I'll, well I'll just... oh...nevermind! ;)

yeti
October 19, 2010, 02:22 PM
I don't even want to get hit with a Walker

Come on, a Walker? I much rather have a Browning HP. You guys with your slow and heavy; fast and light is just as effective and with greater capacity. The one smack stop is a myth, using any hand gun as a club is a compromise at best. And with that Walker what can you get off? 6 smacks until arm fatigue, the HP will let me get off 13 rapid, well aimed smacks in the same amount of time and with a much shorter recovery period.

I thought we were way past the 'heavy/slow vs. the fast/light' bologna. And lets not even get into "the average pistol whipping is only 3 smacks", what if you have multiple smackees? Your arm is fatigued after 6 smacks, but I can keep delivering until all my assailants are down. I don't smack to kill I smack to stop!

I will admit you give up some stopping power if you are smacking with a Glock, but the light weight and ease of carry does make up for the slight loss of power caused by the well known 'polymer cushioning effect'. Still, you are more likely to be carrying the Glock when you need it, and we all know the first rule of pistol whipping is to have a pistol.

Are you willing to stand there and let me smack you with my HP? NO? I rest my case.

;)

SonofGilnockie89
October 19, 2010, 02:27 PM
If you put an end to people saying that, how would you know when you were dealing with an idiot? :D

mbogo
+1 pal

Mike J
October 19, 2010, 10:02 PM
I suppose next ya'all are going to say we shouldn't be arguing about whether a Remington 700 or Winchester model 70 is better. What's next a ban on Remington 870 vs. Mossberg model 500 threads?

mack
October 20, 2010, 12:22 AM
Confucius say - man who whips pistol in public end up in pokey.

AKElroy
October 20, 2010, 12:35 AM
OK,Mack. I know it violates forum rules, but I have to end this sharade and let the world know who you really are. You can always change screen names once your annonymity is compromised.

My friends, Mack is none other than........Dennis Miller.

Texas Pride
October 20, 2010, 12:39 AM
All the debates are null. I mean, of course we shouldn't be arguing about any of this, because the Judge put an end to all of it. It does everything. And anything it can't do, the circuit judge will do. The deadly .410 will take any rifle round out of the competition. With birdshot, it's like having hundreds of .22's all bouncing around inside the brain. And slugs give awesome long-range performance, out of a handgun. Just look a the ads: If it can blow up watermelons like that, can you imagine what it would do to a deer or buffalo! Watermelons exploding might mess up a room, but a buffalo doing that would cover a forest!

(as an aside, I went to a local shop in search of an old .44 special or perhaps .45 Colt snubnosed revolver. The dealer was condescending as to my choice and kept pushing the judge. If you can't tell, I didn't take kindly to his suggestion, his logic, or his attitude. And this thread is the most fun I've ever had online.)

Ike R
October 20, 2010, 12:55 AM
Funniest Firearm Related thread since Al Gore invented the internet.

everyone forgets the .22's best feature, its so fast and accurate it can shoot bullets of slower and therefor lesser calibers out of the air,, Hawk Willie, swear its true.

(I actually heard that one time)

How many smacks can you get out of a Walther p-22? just curious!

Dulvarian
October 20, 2010, 01:39 AM
Lol. I think that everyone on planet has at least one thing they have massive misconceptions on. My wife pointed out that I think everyone knows all the things that I do, and that I should assume exactly the opposite. In 32 years that never occurred to me.

I simply bow the wit and entertainment here. This has probably been one of the best threads I have read on about any topic on this forum that I can recall, even over the best lies you've ever heard in gun store.

HGUNHNTR
October 20, 2010, 10:58 AM
Nothing says lets chuck rocks and spears like "if it isn't broke, don't fix it".

Southern Rebel
October 20, 2010, 11:21 AM
I would say this great wide forum has room enough for both sides of the idiot arguments. One idiot says "that caliber is totally useless" and the other idiot says let me shoot you with it".

I say let the two opposing sides have their day. Idiot 2 gets to shoot idiot 1 with a .22. If idiot 1 is incapacitated, argument settled. If not capacitated, then idiot 1 gets to shoot idiot 2 with an "approprate" caliber.

Either way, one of the two is gonna be persuaded and we will moved all of the BS from the two groups away from the forums and into the world of reality. Real-life examples of pain are always more effective than philosophical discussions and boring statistics. (That is why they used to paddle kids in school rather than use pschology. :uhoh: )

Franco2shoot
October 20, 2010, 12:24 PM
Interesting thread... I've been watching a series called Swamp People on one of the cable channels. These guys use line thats no thicker than Kite twine, to pull up 200 pound Alligators, then pop them in the back of the head usually with a .22Lr rifle. Only one episode showed one of the guy's sons with something that looked like a Ruger Blackhawk, and he couldn't get the gun to fire and went back to a single shot 22 rifle.

Personally, I'ld be using half inch rope, and my 1911 in .45ACP and emptying the Magazine.

KKKKFL
KKKKFL

hardworker
October 20, 2010, 12:30 PM
There's a reason we don't have alligators on here calling 22lr useless as a weapon.

sm
October 20, 2010, 04:10 PM
-We have to remember we have generations that did NOT grow up with firearms in the home/ as part of growing up. Where these folks get their "information" is anyone's guess. Some say TV, movies, and video games. These folks so want to be matriculated into the firearms community, they parrot what sounds "good" or "right" in hopes of being matriculated.


-Bread-n-Butter.
History shows, peoples have used "inferior" weapons to obtain more sophisticated or better weapons. Anything from .22 rim-fire, to single shot rifles and shotguns to you name it.

Recall, one of the ideas of the Liberator pistol, was allow persons to get better arms from the enemy.

Ben86
October 20, 2010, 04:23 PM
Someone not wanting to get shot with caliber X does not mean that caliber will effectively stop a deadly threat. Please, stop using that as an excuse.

Amen to that. Just because I don't want to volunteer to receive physical harm from your favorite caliber of choice doesn't mean it is then clearly an effective SD round and equal to all others.

Dulvarian
October 20, 2010, 06:33 PM
If I remember correctly, the ONLY thing that you are allowed to shoot an alligator (in LA) with is a .22LR. You can only get so many tags based on a fairly sizeable fee, and there are distinct restrictions on how many you can even take off your own land. If you watch closely, when they skin the gators out, they cut a specific scale pattern. That identifies the year of the hide. And if you think an ATF agent is bad, a game warden can just straight seize your property.

And there is a 'sweet spot' in the back of the skull where a single shot from a .22 will kill an alligator. But if you miss that spot, 30 rounds of .22 will just continue to make him madder. I may or may not have witnessed that one before. Especially on a larger one. Watch the show again. The 'sweet spot' is a small circle near the base of the skull.

Sorry for the thread hijack, but it got kind of serious there for a moment, and I had to fix that.

Old krow
October 20, 2010, 06:42 PM
There's a reason we don't have alligators on here calling 22lr useless as a weapon.

yeah, they bashed the .357 pretty hard though.

clutch
October 20, 2010, 06:45 PM
My candidate for best defensive round is 12 ga buck. However, no Glock, M&P, 1911, XD, ect is chambered for it and the number of rounds would be limited. Thus we make trade offs.

Some trade off for smaller rounds and smaller pistols, others bigger rounds with bigger pistols or hard to hold on to smaller pistols. Then there are those that like medium rounds and lots of them.

It is a compromise when it comes down to it and ANY GUN BEATS NO GUN.

Right now a compact .40 seems just right but if you want a 9 that is fine. .380, I've carried that when I had to be very discrete.

A .32 or a .22 beats trying to drive your ink pen into the bad guys temple. You better pick good shots with any caliber but the smaller ones grade much harder.

Clutch

gym
October 20, 2010, 06:53 PM
What is this post about?

Webbj0219
October 20, 2010, 07:11 PM
As I recall the .22lr is the number one choice for ogre hunters.

Not even chuck norris would shoot himself in the head with a .22lr.

.22s loaded with silver bullets are the number one vampire slaying round.

.22s go so fast you cant even see them, because the are faster than the speed of light.

Hope I wasnt too over the top. it is halloween after all.

Gord
October 20, 2010, 08:07 PM
Not even chuck norris would shoot himself in the head with a .22lr.

Someone tried shooting a .50BMG at Chuck once (obviously from maximum range). It was a solid hit to the bicep.

A couple minutes later, Chuck went to scratch his arm and was seen to look around and say, "Anyone got some tweezers? Think I got a splinter."

Dain Bramage
October 21, 2010, 01:25 PM
Are you willing to stand there and let me smack you with my HP? NO? I rest my case.

I am willing to get pistol-whipped with a derringer, if the licks are personally applied by Lady Derringer. I guess that makes the derringer the first official completely useless gun.

krazykeny
October 21, 2010, 04:13 PM
I have enjoyed this post very much !

skoro
October 21, 2010, 04:50 PM
People saying "if you don't think caliber X is good for ____, than why don't you volunteer to get shot with it"

I dunno.

Seems to me like that statement serves as pretty reliable marker. I see that and immediately think, "this guy doesn't know what he's talking about."

If that phrase became verboten, it would make it a little tougher to sift the wheat from the chaff on these gun forums. ;)

Just One Shot
October 21, 2010, 05:09 PM
Can we put an end to...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

People saying "if you don't think caliber X is good for ____, than why don't you volunteer to get shot with it" or other variations on that theme? That sentiment seems to come up over and over, especially when you have people defending their choice of a low end caliber like .22 and others for CCW. That is a terrible standard for any sort of caliber choice. As a poster noted on another thread, I wouldn't volunteer to get shot with a pellet gun, but that doesn't mean a Crosman air pistol from Wal Mart is a good CCW choice.

Someone not wanting to get shot with caliber X does not mean that caliber will effectively stop a deadly threat. Please, stop using that as an excuse.


Sure we can, just as soon as the people it's being said to stop trying to one up someone by saying that another persons caliber choice isn't sufficent for self defense.

By their logic we should all walk around with RPG's. But then eventually someone would chime in and say they wouldn't be caught carrying anything less than an ICBM!

:neener:

:D

CoRoMo
October 21, 2010, 05:34 PM
Okay then, lets say an Army Ranger unit, armed only with normal 10/22 rifles & iron sights, are able to ambush a large group of teenage wanna-be Al-Qaeda, who are armed with select fire M14s with quality optics, and a SAW.

Is toolset still last place?

hardworker
October 21, 2010, 05:50 PM
That depends, is Bruce Willis in this ranger unit? And if he is, has Al Qaeda already killed his girlfriend?

Ben86
October 21, 2010, 05:58 PM
And do the rest of the members of the ranger unit consist of the cast of The Expendables + Chuck Norris? If so then toolset matters very little. They could all have only butter knives and it would hardly be a fair fight.

Gord
October 21, 2010, 06:46 PM
They could all have only butter knives and it would hardly be a fair fight.

No need to bother. All they'd have to do is walk around pointing their fingers at people and yelling "Bang!" In and out, thirty seconds.

MaggiesPapaw
October 21, 2010, 11:07 PM
>>>I have enjoyed this post very much ! <<<

Which one?

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