[ninjalawyer]

I bought a NIB Bersa model 85 .380 (like the Thunder, but with a pre-ban 13 round double column mag) about a year and a half ago. It has been a terrific shooter, very comfortable and exceptionally accurate... until about a month ago. The recoil on the gun has suddenly gotten unusually fierce... the thing kicks harder than any other pistol I've ever shot. I suspect that the main spring is shot out, but I haven't shot the thing that much, probably only a thousand rounds or so. I first noticed the problem with Winchester White Box, but after cleaning it out and inspecting it (didn't see any obvious problems) I tried shooting it with Magsafe with the same result. The gun still seems to be cycling properly, but I've only shot a few rounds with it for fear of causing serious damage to the gun... and it's genuinely painful to shoot now. It worked just fine when my fiance shot it two weeks before the problem occurred. Any ideas what might be wrong with the thing?

[1911Tuner]

Hmmm...Could be the result of some of that hot .380 ammo that I
read about in a local newspaper several years ago. To wit:

"The victim was shot four times in the chest by a .380 caliber magnum
automatic revolver."

:rolleyes:

To hell with the story...I'd like to have a look at that gun.:scrutiny:
Especially since the reporter indicated that the gun acted alone.

[KMKeller]

It worked just fine when my fiance shot it two weeks before the problem occurred. Any ideas what might be wrong with the thing?

Sounds like it's picked its favorite owner... and it isn't you. Seriously though, sounds like the recoil spring is either not properly installed or shot out. Disassemble, clean, lube, reassemble and test fire. If that doesn't fix it, get a new recoil spring.

[Redlg155]

Sounds like you need a new recoil spring.

You might also want to try taking a peek at your old spring and make sure it is installed correctly. Many blowback autos have a recoil spring that is slightly smaller at one end. That end slips over the barrel. You could have some problems if it is installed incorrectly.

Good Shooting
Red

[PCRCCW]

Id second the motion on the Recoil spring...the gun is soley dependent on them to run, how they run or not run. Get a new Wolff spring and try it....
If your old one was to blame, it will be very apparent very quickly.

Shoot well.

[clubsoda22]

I'd replace springs on blowback auto's every 500 rounds if used for SD, maybe 1000 if not.

[ninjalawyer]

Thanks guys. I need a new grip screw anyway and I'll get the new recoil spring with it... maybe a few, depending on what they cost. In the meantime I'll try reversing the spring position, I may well have had it in wrong.

[ninjalawyer]

Well, the folks at Eagle Imports took care of me on the Spring, it was only $4. I compared the new spring with the old when I installed it and it was noticeably longer-- at least a cm difference.

It seems to have partially, but not completely solved the problem. The thing kicks less than it did before I swapped the springs, but still way more than it did before. The gun is just jumping straight back, hard, into the web of my hand.

I'm 100% sure that I had the spring in correctly, with the narrowerl end towards the breech and the wider end towards the muzzle. Anyone have any other guesses on what's wrong with the thing? And if not, anyone care to recommend a 'smith in the MA/NH area?

[horge]

Ninja,

I'm no expert, but is there any chance you can post sharp closeup pics of

a) the underside of the slide
b) the rails
c) the base of the barrel, sans spring
d) the frame, viewed from dead-on above (slide removed)?

It might help readers deduce the source of the problem.


----

[ninjalawyer]

Pics of the Bersa (http://www.ninjalawyer.com/public/bersa/)

I have shots there of all the parts you wanted to see... thanks for help!
---Will

[Redlg155]

Hmm...

I checked a parts diagram of your pistol and don't see a recoil buffer, so that isn't the problem. Some blowback pistols do have a plastic buffer, but yours doesn't..or at least I didn't see one.

I'd check the following.

1. Make sure the barrel does not have a burr in it. A small burr in the rifling would be enough to cause higher pressures as the bullets passes that area, thus increasing recoil. Take a peek at a fired casing and examine the marks. Do you have a severely flattened primer? Are the primers starting to pop out of the primer pocket?

2. Slowly work the action and feel if there are and obvious places where you slide sticks. If you feel a spot, disassemble and check for burrs or excessive wear in that general area. Also pull the slide completely back and mark where the slide stops. Does it stop completely against the frame or does it stop at the limit of the compressed spring? Now remove the spring and put the slide back on the frame and pull it to the rear. This time the slide will be stopped by the frame. Is the length of travel the same? Also, examine the area where the recoil spring makes contact with the front of the slide. Check to see if the recoil spring sits squarely within the proper area.

3. Try a different lot of ammo to be 100 percent sure. Also examine some fired casings from your weapon. Many times this can give good clues on what is happening.


Good Shooting
Red

[horge]

Ninja :(

Where to begin?
I see you indeed have an older model 85 (no integral gunlock)
Mine is newer and is a Thunder 380, and so differs somewhat, but parts of yours simply do not look right.

In one pic you posted online, I think there's only half a proper length of rail on the left side of the frame, with some kind of metal strip in its place. Furthermore, there's no visible ejector, nor a normal slide catch-- (although i'm just asuming the model 85 has a slide catch) --instead I see this metal strap from the barrel-pin head all the way to where the slide catch would be on a Thunder. That might mess with how the slide lines up with the frame rails.

Indeed- look at the inside of the slide: I think that puppy is supposed to be satin-smooth. Instead, you have these annular marks that might suggest the slide's been hopping a bit and banging into the spring coils or the frame where it loops over the breechblock.


Tell you what, ninja...
I will try to photograph my piece just as you did yours, so you can compare.

I'll post in a bit... got to have dinner right now.

[horge]

I'm back and I hope I'm wrong about this.
I put off dinner for the extra quarter hour it took to shoot pics of my Bersa Thunder 380 and upload them for comparison to yours.

Let's start with the left side of the frame. Here's mine:
(I covered the serial number with some masking tape)
http://mabma.thereeftank.com/postpics/hofrgt.jpg

and here's yours:
http://www.ninjalawyer.com/public/bersa/b1leftrail.jpg

Compare:
the length of available rail,
the metal 'strap'
the presence/absence of a slide catch

(EDIT: I've since learned that the model 85 has no slide catch!)

Mine has some wear on the frame (triangular area) over the breechblock, but that comes from hasty fieldstripping, and has merely stripped the nickel finish off. I aso have wear on the rear end of the rail --again from careless fieldstripping. Your rail on the other hand looks pretty dinged throughout its abbreviated length.

I'm sure there would be structural differences between the model 85 and the Thunder 380, but the metal strap looks heretic.


-------------
Now for the inside of the slide, here's mine:
(with almost a thousand rounds through the pistol)
http://mabma.thereeftank.com/postpics/hoslide.jpg

and here's yours:
http://www.ninjalawyer.com/public/bersa/abottomslide.jpg

Like I said, there are annular marks on yours that suggest violent contact with the spring coils or the frame's loop over the breechblock. That can only happen if the rails aren't doing their job... which can sorta happen if the rails aren't quite present. Of course, those might be grinding marks 9a rotary tool to shape/strip the inside of the slide.

-------------

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong (these ARE different pistol models and I am kind of crosseyed with hunger for dinner), but your pistol looks to me like it might've been messed with via a strip of metal. When that remedy fell apart, the slide may have started wiggling and running hard into the pieces of metal scrap. Messing with the rails to the extent that I think I see evidence of on your piece (never mind the other discrepancies I also think I see) would be very bad juju.

I think you could stop firing that thing and have a proper gunsmith look at what I think I'm seeing.


:(
horge

[horge]

Last thing.

Can the other Bersa Thunder 380 or Model 85 owners chime in and help ninja out?
It's a simple matter to field strip your piece and compare it with what you're seeing on this thread.

Like I said, I have a latter-model Thunder 380.
ninjalawyer has an 85.
Maybe someone else with a properly-working 85 can post a topview of the fieldstripped frame, views of the rails, and views of the slide as above, for a fairer comparison.


Here's ninja's frame again, top view:
http://www.ninjalawyer.com/public/bersa/dframetop.jpg
Look at the thicker frame section to the hammer's left side.

Here's mine (didn't have time to clean out stray grease-blobs --don't ask) :
http://mabma.thereeftank.com/postpics/hoftop.jpg
The frame is symmetrical on either side of the hammer.

Again, ninja's is a model 85
Mine is a Thunder 380, and so maybe another, properly working model 85
would be better for comparisons.
Thanks.

[nvrquit]

Having owned a Bersa 85 from NIB and currently owning a Thunder380 Deluxe, I can comment directly from personal experience on both. The Bersa 85 was my primary CCW for about 5 years. Very accurate and reliable with all ammo, save Winchester 85gr. ST.

First, I would recommend a regular replacement of the recoil spring for the long lived health of the model 85 Bersa. The 85 I owned self-destructed at approx. 1500 rounds fired. The frame fractured through-and-through, side to side and top to bottom. This happened from directly above the mag release button, below the release button to the bottom of the frame, across the front of mag well directly behind the mag release button. In point of fact, the only thing that kept the barrel/chamber web portion of the pistol attached to rest of the frame was the trigger guard. This particular pistol was purchased in 1990 and the failure occurred in 1999.

The ammo history use was entirely factory, mostly standard velocity loadings. The exception being about 300 rounds of SD types before settling on the use of CorBon HP's. After that, the only time +P type ammo was used was to cycle the carry ammo once a year. I always felt the pistol was somewhat under-sprung recoil wise, though AFAIK, no aftermarket manufacturer makes or made any springs for the Bersa line of pistols.

BTW, FYI I believe the latest Cheaper Than Dirt catalog I have listed mags for the 13 round Bersa 85 at about $30. Not bad, as they had been going for between $50 & $70.

If I can dig up the pictures, I'll scan them for posting. Can anyone recommend any free hosting sites that are worth the trouble?

[horge]

neverquit,
Thanks you so much for responding. Your input should help ninja better than mine.
:)


I can't recommend any free sites that would allow remote hosting of pics.
You can send the pics to me, and I'll host 'em, if you like
I'm at horge followed by @ followed by hotmail
(I'm phrasing it that way to try to foil mailbots.)

I can't say I'm surprised that the 85 could break nearly in half as you decribe --steel frame or no, to my eyes, there's not enough meat to either side of the frame, directly over the trigger guard, to resist/transmit the battering (should the recoil spring tire out).

I have over 900 rounds through my Thunder 380 in just a little over three months: I couldn't help shooting this piece, and an impending 6-month electoral gun ban was further incentive to get my shooting in quick! The spring seemed to break-in (it was very strong to begin with ---almost too strong) a bit after 200-300, and hasn't really weakened or shortened much since then.

[nvrquit]

horge,

Not neverquit, it's just nvrquit.

BTW, the Bersa 85 does have a slide catch. In fact the slide catch(IIRC correctly) serves double duty as the ejector. On two of the pics, the slide catch is plainly visible. On one, the overhead pic of the 85, on the rear most portion of the catch, the small angled portion that is turned/rolled inward serves as the ejector. However, the slide catch on the 83/85/86 series possessed no external release capability, requiring the slide to be pulled rearward and released following the insertion of a fresh mag(ala a Walther PP/PPK).

On the ejector issue, I'll have to dig out the owner's manual on the 85(I think I still have it somewhere?!?) and make sure my explanation was correct.

On the frame of the 85, the cross section of the areas described is a bit thin in the mag well(behind the mag release) and the area above the mag release to the top of the frame. Of course, I can't speak as to the composition or heat treatment of the steel used to manufacture the frame. That would of course have a lot to do with the ability to withstand some of the forces of recoil, in conjuction with a recoil spring of proper design and construction.

Additionally, the early production of the Thunder22/Thunder380 series did not include the integral frame trigger lock. I know this as the Thunder380 Deluxe I have is just such a pistol. Too bad the Thunder380 plus isn't imported into the USA. I guess we'll just have to do with the CZ83 for a wide frame, high cap capable .380 ACP pistol.

One question though; a 6 month electoral gun ban? Where oh where do you hail from?

[horge]

nvrquit :),

I guess what I meant earlier was the absence of a "slide release lever" --which BERSA designates in its manuals as a 'slide catch' (hence my preference for the latter term). Your description is pretty much what I surmised from the pics.

I can see the protrusion, left side internal, in the 85 that would serve as an ejector (topview photo in one of my prior posts). If it's coming out of the slide catch, then I can see why the rails had to be shorter: to make room for this elongate contraption. However this rules out out a fair portion of frame-metal that could have bridged the frame from rail to breechblock. Its absence increases the tendency to flex (and ultimately fracture) over the trigger area.

So... I wasn't worried about thin sections, so much as about abrupt breaks.
I think you'll agree the magwell sections aren't too critical when it comes to recoil stresses --particularly since there's a magazine to help it resist deformation. The weak point in the whole frame is between the breech and the grip-- and that's just where metal was omitted to make way for the catch 'bar':

There's a barlike extension rearwards from the breechblock that I assume is the slide catch, sporting an ejector nub. Now, what's the flattish straplike affair running under and parallel to it, from right on top of the barrel pin rearwards to just about over the mag release button?


horge


PS: Philippine law mandates a ban on the transport of firearms and other deadly weapons during an election period ---which in this case covers December 15 to June 9 (or thereabouts), from campaign period to actual elections on to a wind-down period.

Many feel its reasonable given the bloody mess that political Neanderthals can make of the affair, and elections aside, this country still has some of the better KBA laws on the planet.