October 18, 2010, 09:54 PM
Not mine. In your all's opinion, would this not be considered an AOW?

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October 18, 2010, 09:57 PM
if thats an AK "PISTOL" ...then i believe that would be considered a short barrel rifle per the front grip on a pistol

Rail Driver
October 18, 2010, 10:09 PM
If it's an AK cut down to that length barrel and no stock then it's an SBR, and not an AOW. If it's an AK "Draco" pistol, it's an AOW with the VFG installed (Unless you have a letter from the ATF stating that the grip-pod is not a VFG, that it is a bi-pod and permitted to be installed without registering the gun as an AOW)

Prince Yamato
October 19, 2010, 12:36 AM
If in the US, it's an AOW. If outside the US, it's just a gun.

Aaron Baker
October 23, 2010, 11:36 AM
In MY opinion? No.

In the ATF's opinion? Yes.

The ATF has taken the view that a forward grip on a pistol makes it an AOW (any other weapon). I disagree

The wording of the statute actually says that a pistol is a gun that was "originally" designed or made to be fired with one hand. Unless the gun comes from the factory with that foward pistol grip, then I don't see how adding one changes how it was "originally" designed or made to be fired.

Let's use a Glock pistol as an example. Gaston Glock clearly originally designed or made them to be fired with one hand. Some of them also have a rail on the front. The gun doesn't ship with a forward grip. But if you buy an aftermarket one and install it, the ATF says it's an AOW.

But here's the kicker: because the definition of pistol says ORIGINALLY designed or made to be fired with one hand, how does your aftermarket addition change what was original to the gun? The original design and manufacture are unchangeable once the gun is in existence and on the market. No matter what you do with it, it's still originally designed or made to be fired with one hand.

Of course, you can't add a stock and say "Hey, it's still a pistol because of how it was originally designed or made." But that's because there's a definition of an SBR in the statute, and it's specific enough to encompass pistols with stocks, and is more restrictive. But the definition of AOW is not specific enough to automatically encompass pistols with forward grips. It is a catchall section.

So in my opinion, a pistol with an aftermarket forward grip is not an AOW. But in the ATF's opinion it is.

One of these days, I ought to register a pistol as an AOW, pay the tax, put on my forward grip, and then sue the ATF in the US Court of Claims to get my money back. That would give us all case law to point to when we want to add a forward grip.


October 23, 2010, 06:20 PM
Seems to me someone ought to challenge these laws as arbitrary and capricious....

Is a pistol more deadly because it has a foreward grip? Is a rifle more deadly because the barrel is 15"? Is a pistol more dangerous if it has a stock?

These laws seem quite unconstitutional. If anyone out there were ever busted, they would have standing to challenge these ...

October 23, 2010, 07:00 PM
some of the AOW rules are so outdated.

you can get a contender in about any rifle caliber an it is legal but you cut the barrel down on your rifle it is an AOW.

you saw the barrel off on your shotgun its an AOW ,but you by a judge it is legal.

ned to do away with all that AOW hocky

October 23, 2010, 09:21 PM
you saw the barrel off on your shotgun its an AOW ,but you by a judge it is legal.

No. If you saw the barrel off you shotgun you've made a Short Barreled Shotgun. ("Weapon made from a shotgun...") Doesn't matter if you keep the stock on it or not.

If you start with a bare receiver -- never having been made into a shotgun -- and you build it as a handgun (no buttstock, ever) then you've made an AOW.

by a judge it is legal A Taurus Judge is a rifled Title I revolver, chambered for .45 Colt. Legally speaking, it just happens to also chamber .410 shotshells.

October 23, 2010, 09:34 PM
thought a shotgun was limited to 36 in oal and a 18in barrel

October 23, 2010, 09:54 PM
thought a shotgun was limited to 36 in oal and a 18in barrel "Thinking" has gotten more folks in trouble (or kept them from enjoying their rights) . . .

The laws are all linked here in the stickies.

October 23, 2010, 10:25 PM
OTHER THEN the right to own any gun as per the 2nd amendment .

the gov wants money to have a short shotgun

United States
Under the National Firearms Act (NFA) it is illegal for a private citizen to possess a sawed-off modern smokeless powder shotgun, i.e. with a barrel length less than 18 inches (46 cm) and an overall length less than 26 inches (66 cm), without a tax-stamped permit from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which requires a background check and a $200 fee for every transfer. However, if the weapon was manufactured by a licensed builder, with a short barrel and no stock, the transfer fee is $5. [1] (Short-barreled muzzleloading blackpowder shotguns, in contrast, are not illegal by federal law and require no tax-stamped permit, although they may be illegal under state law.) As with all NFA regulated firearms, a new tax stamp must be purchased before every transfer. Inter-state transfers must be facilitated through a Class III Federal Firearms Licensed (FFL) dealer while intrastate transfers may be between two persons.[6]

October 24, 2010, 03:28 PM
My Ruger Charger shipped with a folding bipod....

So is it an AOW? I think not....

I'm guessing the intent of the item in question is both a bi-pod and grip, therefore it's an AOW.

October 24, 2010, 11:09 PM
Ruger charger was never built as a rifle , thus it is it registered as a pistol. Folding bipod is different than a pistol grip containing an expandable bi-pod.

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