357 SIG - Speer Gold Dot (FAIL)


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andre73
October 19, 2010, 09:25 PM
We tested a few .357 SIG rounds this weekend and we had a case failure during the testing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V10D75bwYZY

oops Speer....:eek:

Andre'

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PabloJ
October 19, 2010, 09:40 PM
Why shoot into drum of water from above?

HGUNHNTR
October 19, 2010, 09:43 PM
Just curious, nothing accusatory, but were they handloads or factory?

gofastman
October 19, 2010, 09:45 PM
Why shoot into drum of water from above?
seems like a good way to catch a ricochet in the face

SharpsDressedMan
October 19, 2010, 09:50 PM
The chamber in the barrel could be out of spec (aftermarket barrel), headspace off, or the case could have been short, or too brittle. WE need more inspection and info gathering to tell.

Ric
October 19, 2010, 10:46 PM
I just pulled out of my safe Gold Dot 357, 9mm, 357 Sig and I don't see any brass colored primers. All silver.
I'm calling BS

andre73
October 19, 2010, 11:14 PM
These were factory rounds. I bought them from Ammunitontogo.com specifically for this test. They were fresh from the box and had not been chambered prior (no setback). We also tested a number of brands of ammo and also put a full box (50) of FMJ though the barrel. There were no other such failures with any other ammo that day. I was very suprised at this myself since Gold Dots always did well in our other tests.

Andre'

HGUNHNTR
October 20, 2010, 12:03 AM
If they were reloads, I have known folks to use 9mm bullets and not those for .357 sig. The 9mm bullets don't provide enough surface area to keep from being pushed into the casing. That could definitly cause an unsafe spike in pressure. I did this myself, and caught the error before it was too late.

bhp9mm
October 20, 2010, 01:47 AM
Don't no why them have brass colored primers the ones i seen online in 357 sig had silver primers and the ones i have in .38 special have silver too.

evan price
October 20, 2010, 02:02 AM
In any mass-produced product there may be defective single pieces. The only way to be sure is to test each piece, which is not possible with ammo. Statistical process control means there will be bad ones.

janobles14
October 20, 2010, 02:04 AM
i gotta say that i have watched the vids from these guys before and they are good for what they are. however, i also have never seen a speer factory round with brass colored primers. i would bet that if you went to a local store or larger online place (midway etc...) you wouldnt find them. i think it's a bit suspect.

but of course, i dont work for speer and we could be wrong! :)

Roughneck08
October 20, 2010, 02:23 AM
Sharpsdressedman beat me to it. Chamber out of spec is what rang the bell first for me. Shoot that through a SIG or Glock. Aftermarket barrel is what I would blame.

greyeyezz
October 20, 2010, 10:29 AM
OK lets put the brass primer issue to bed right now, here's a box I pulled from my stash, yes they are older.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/greyeyezz/P1030170.jpg

What kind of barrel is that? Did the OP contact Speer with the lot # of the ammo? If not why?

Ed DCB
October 20, 2010, 11:04 AM
Not having seen something yet does not mean it does not exist..
Just like the brass colored primers, many people say the failure I had when testing Caracal pistols could not have happened because they did not experience any such failure (the fact that they are unable to say wich ammo they shot or show a single picture of these pistols when shooting or even one with visible serial number them is another story )

No ricochet if shooting with a 90° angle to the water but plenty of water for the shooter's face for sure. When I did that I shot through a plastic foil. :D

andre73
October 20, 2010, 01:35 PM
Yes I did get wet testing (as I do with every test like this), but at the angle I shoot into the water the round will not ricochet. The barrel is a EFK Firedragon conversion barrel. We shot a number of other brands through that barrel both before this failure and after and everything else was flawless. I can say that I have shot tens of thousands (possibly hundreds of thousands) of rounds over my lifetime and I have never seen this happen. I am willing to send the remainder of the box and the broken case to Speer for analysis provided I am allowed to tell you guys their findings. I will send an email to them with a link to the video and see what they have to say.

Andre'

andre73
October 21, 2010, 03:00 PM
I got an email back today asking me to ship the ammo back to Speer for testing. I will see what they have to say about it.



Andre'

Ben86
October 21, 2010, 06:10 PM
andre73, I'm a subscriber on your channel, and appreciate your unbiased ammo testing videos.

From what I can tell high pressure calibers like the .357 sig are more sensitive to anything being out of spec than other lower pressure calibers. The fact that you have used that barrel with many other loads and never had a problem leads me to believe the ammo is at fault. It could be an overloaded charge, improperly seated bullet, out of spec case, etc. The results will be interesting, please do share.

andre73
October 21, 2010, 06:17 PM
Thanks for the sub Ben! I have shipped the remainder of the ammo, along with the broken case and the other fired cases, and the recovered slugs back to Speer for analysis. I am wondering what happed myself. As far as I can tell it was bad brass but I am not an expert by any means. I will let you guys know what they say.

Andre'

Ben86
October 21, 2010, 06:21 PM
I saw the video and I've got to say it was one of the cleanest breaks in a case I have ever seen. Almost as if it was pre-cut, or maybe it burst while have the case was in and half out the chamber.

My youtube id is vidwatcher321 by the way, you'll probably see some comments of questionable relevance from me from time to time. ;)

andre73
December 12, 2010, 04:32 PM
Ok guys,

I think we have finally found out what happened here. After changing the factory recoil spring to a heavier 20# one, we have had no further issues. Below are the emails that were sent back and forth to Speer on the issue in order. Also, I have made a video response to this one and posted it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5xDmiF_FDc


In the response, we shot a full box through with the heavier spring and had no problems at all.


Andre’







From: Andre' Leger
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 10:27 AM
To: Experts, SpeerAmmo
Subject: Gold Dot Case Failure

Hello,

I have a channel on youtube where I test various ammo. While I realize
that these tests are not exactly scientific in nature; they have developed a significant following. On a recent test of your Gold Dot ammo, I had a case break in half. I have never seen anything like this. Here is a link to the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V10D75bwYZY

We shot a number of other brands through that barrel both before this
Failure and after and everything else was flawless. I can say that I have shot tens of thousands (possibly hundreds of thousands) of rounds over my lifetime and I have never seen this happen. I am willing to send the remainder of the box and the broken case to you for analysis provided I am allowed to tell them your findings.


Andre' Leger
http://www.youtube.com/andreleger2001


-----Original Message-----
From: Getman, Coy, On Behalf Of Experts, SpeerAmmo
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 11:49 AM
To: Andre' Leger
Subject: RE: Gold Dot Case Failure


Andre': we would like to test the product to establish if meets industry standards for 357 SIG.

SHIP IN THE FOLLOWING MANNER, SEND TO:

CCI
ATTN: COY GETMAN
**** **********
LEWISTON, ID 83501

INSIDE THE PACKAGE PLACE YOUR CONTACT INFORMATION, NAME, ADDRESS (MUST
BE STREET SO UPS CAN DELIVER, NOT A P.O. BOX) PHONE NUMBER. INCLUDE A SHORT NOTE ON WHAT THE PROBLEM WAS THAT YOU EXPERIENCED WITH THE TYPE FIREARM.

MARK THE EXTERIOR OF THE PACKAGE WITH "CARTRIDGES, SMALL ARMS" AND
"ORM-D". THEN SHIP VIA UPS GROUND. DO NOT SEND LIVE AMMUNITION THROUGH THE US MAIL.

QUESTIONS, CONTACT ME @ 866-***-****.

We will test and replace any product you send for testing and cover the cost incurred in shipping with additional ammunition.

Shoot Straight!
Coy Getman
CCI/Speer Sr. Technical Coordinator
(866) ***-****

-----Original Message-----
From: Andre' Leger
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 11:04 AM
To: Experts, SpeerAmmo
Subject: RE: Gold Dot Case Failure

ok, ill ship it back today...

Andre' Leger
http://www.youtube.com/andreleger2001


-----Original Message-----
From: Getman, Coy, On Behalf Of Experts, SpeerAmmo
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:16 PM
To: Andre' Leger
Subject: RE: Gold Dot Case Failure


Andre':

Testing is complete on the product returned, Lot # C21R33, it met
Industry Standard for pressure and was actually a bit above the catalog
velocity spec at 1390 fps. Review of the fired cartridge cases that you
sent showed what appears to be cases that have been exposed to a firearm with a headspace problem.

The appearance of a headspace problem in a semi-auto firearm can also be attributed to the timing being out of cycle. That could be as a result of the EKF Fire Dragon after-market barrel being installed on the Taurus PT-100 slide and frame. The 357 Sig has an Industry approved Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) which exceeds that of the 40 S&W by almost 20% which may add to the problem.

Now to the case that pulled apart when firing. The case appears as if it was stressed during extraction and it shows an extractor mark in the rim cut that has removed the nickel plating from the case. I suspect that goes back to the comment above about being out of cycle as the primers also show them to be domed and cratered (raised metal) around the primer strike. The fired cases from your gun show the same indications on the case rim and the raised primer material.

Based on our testing, the fired cases and the failed case are all indications that the timing is out of cycle and/or headspace is an issue in the modified firearm. We will replace the product you sent for testing and cover your shipping cost with additional product, that said, I would give serious consideration to not using it in the modified Taurus PT-100.

Shoot Straight!
Coy Getman
CCI/Speer Sr. Technical Coordinator

-----Original Message-----
From: Andre Leger
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:50 PM
To: Experts, SpeerAmmo
Subject: RE: Gold Dot Case Failure

Coy,

The only 'modifications' made to the original PT100 was a simple barrel
swap. The factory locking block was used. I do not mind sending the barrel to EFK for testing. Since this failure incident we have fired many hundreds of rounds through the same barrel and gun combination with ammo from many different manufacturers (all factory) and we have had no problems at all. No FTF, no FTE, no stovepipes, no cracked cases, no signs of overpressure... nothing.

I can concede that it could be a headspace issue, but only testing the barrel would tell. Let me know if this response is what you want me to post as official and if you would like me to contact EFK about this issue. I have also forwarded this to a local gunsmith for his review.

Andre' Leger
http://www.youtube.com/andreleger2001


-----Original Message-----
From: Getman, Coy, On Behalf Of Experts, SpeerAmmo
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 7:17 PM
To: Andre Leger
Subject: RE: Gold Dot Case Failure


Andre':

As a matter of clarification:

The extraction timing can be ammunition specific depending on the burn speed of the propellant selected by the manufacturer and in this instance that timing issue is extracting the cartridge before the pressure has dropped sufficiently to ensure case integrity.

I would be remiss if I did not ensure you understood that the 357 Sig headspaces on the case mouth and not the shoulder of the case. I feel certain you know that, some that read the post may not.

Let me add also that the Lot size was about 100,000 rounds and it has been more than 6 months since the time of manufacture, yours is the only complaint on the Lot. We are under the assumption much of that ammunition has been fired in that length of time and in a number of different types of guns. Your replacement product was shipped last week.

Coy
-----Original Message-----
From: Andre Leger
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 6:07 PM
To: Experts, SpeerAmmo
Subject: RE: Gold Dot Case Failure

Coy,

Ok, I have had a gunsmith check it out and he found nothing wrong with the gun. However when I cleaned the barrel recently, I did notice that part of the rifling right where it starts did look unusual. I am going to upload a vid for you to see what I mean if I can get it to go up. It may have caused an overpressure situation. I wish I would have recorded the stuck casing but we just pulled it out and kept going. Your theory is reasonable especially since the slight flaw of the barrel was observed during cleaning. It seems as though it may have been the cause. Barrel video link below (it is currently a private link until I hear back from you on this).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-fKxtYig8Y

The stats about the lot being 100000 rounds leads me to think that the
barrel is indeed at fault. Looks like I will be sending the barrel back to EFK for their response.

Let me know if your ok with me posting most of these emails and what you think on the barrel video.

Andre' Leger


-----Original Message-----
From: Getman, Coy On Behalf Of Experts, SpeerAmmo
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 3:39 PM
To: Andre Leger
Subject: RE: Gold Dot Case Failure


Andre': I had the chance to lunch with an old friend and your issue became a topic of conversation. He'd seen the problem when a 45 Auto that had been converted to a 10mm. The increase in pressure and the increase in slide speed pulled cases apart as well as cratered the primers, the same issues you discovered.

The remedy was to increase the spring weight and that solved the problem. As the pressure increases (35,000 MAP to 40,000 MAP) and the bullet velocity jumps (~1100 fps to ~1400 fps) the timing causes the problem (as discussed earlier). Try changing the spring to one that would accommodate the 357 Sig vice the 40 S&W before sending the barrel back.

The rifling could be hitting the bullet and setting-back the round (out-of-battery), look for witness marks on the bullet, it could be the combination.

Coy

-----Original Message-----
From: Andre' Leger
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:47 PM
To: Experts, SpeerAmmo
Subject: RE: Gold Dot Case Failure

hmmm.... I will get a spring and try it out. Thank you for your help on this issue. I will be posting the resolution on this soon.

Andre' Leger
http://www.youtube.com/andreleger2001


-----Original Message-----
From: Getman, Coy On Behalf Of Experts, SpeerAmmo
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:11 PM
To: Andre Leger
Subject: RE: Gold Dot Case Failure


Let me know how it worked.
Coy

JohnBT
December 12, 2010, 04:51 PM
"...was a simple barrel swap."

It's seldom simple, it's a system of moving parts working together. Thanks for the follow-up.

John

conhntr
December 12, 2010, 05:18 PM
Wow im really suprised by that string of emails. I would have assumed

//ammo tested and in spec: speer ammo is made to only be used in firearms origionally designed for the catridge and that are in good working order//

Or something along those lines

Claude Clay
December 12, 2010, 05:21 PM
my Sig p-239 in 40 also wears Fire Dragon 357 Sig and a 9MM barrels.

all 3 calibers fire and function perfectly.
though POI is 3" low for the 9mm and 3 more for the 357 Sig bbls.

other things have caused me much back 'n forthen.
so i can appreciate you staying calm and keeping good track of conversations over time.
cause these things tend to go on a bit...

GLOOB
December 13, 2010, 07:58 AM
Why shoot into drum of water from above?
Because shooting it from any other direction necessitates a new barrel for each test!?

Ben86
December 13, 2010, 12:26 PM
Thanks for the follow up Andre, that was interesting.

I've never been a fan of caliber conversion myself, but I'm glad to see you've got it worked out.

Among the ammo companies Speer does have some really good customer service, both from my experience and from this post.

Deaf Smith
December 13, 2010, 11:38 PM
Have you tested the origional Taurus with the ORIGIONAL BARREL to see if it gives problems with the same ammo?

Deaf

Ben86
December 14, 2010, 12:47 AM
The original barrel was .40 so I don't think that would help much.

Kingofthehill
December 14, 2010, 04:14 PM
Very cool to see that sting of Emails with Speer.

I am shocked that in this pathetic day and age of automated reply's that they took the time to actually work with you.

Speaks volumes to their customer service and makes me very very proud to carry sig ammo in all my carry guns and home defense firearms.

JOe

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