Not happy with my pistol's accuracy..


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Wonderclam
October 20, 2010, 04:17 PM
I have a S&W Sigma .40 caliber. I've been taking it to the range and I'm not happy with its accuracy at all. At first, I thought it was the hefty trigger pull. I fixed that, but it's still pretty inaccurate. I shot about 15 feet:

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/3561/img0237rm.jpg

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/5395/img0238vt.jpg

I used Fiocchi, Federal, Winchester. All FMJ rounds.

I'm thinking of trading it in for a more accurate 9mm pistol. Like a Ruger P95, SR9 or a Beretta.

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REAPER4206969
October 20, 2010, 04:22 PM
Adjust the little nut behind the trigger.

ETA:That's decent shooting BTW. Almost all your hits are in lethal zones.

KodiakBeer
October 20, 2010, 04:28 PM
Sigma's are Glock clones, so are specifically designed with a poor (long and mushy) trigger pull. It takes a lot more practice to get proficient with such a trigger, so knuckle down and shoot more.

Wonderclam
October 20, 2010, 04:30 PM
Adjust the little nut behind the trigger.

ETA:That's decent shooting BTW. Almost all your hits are in lethal zones.

yeah, but I was aiming dead center in the box of the body or the head. And this is only at 15 feet with me carefully aiming. I take my time with each and every shot.

Are 9mms more accurate?

essayons21
October 20, 2010, 04:38 PM
The winchester groups don't look bad at all. I'd say some of the flyers are attributable to shooter error instead of the pistol or ammunition.

I have always found Fiocchi ammunition to be inaccurate in most of my guns, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

To really determine your pistol's accuracy you need to get some good quality ammunition and shoot it from a rest.

REAPER4206969
October 20, 2010, 04:41 PM
yeah, but I was aiming dead center in the box of the body or the head.
Work on trigger control.
Are 9mms more accurate?
No.

DasFriek
October 20, 2010, 04:43 PM
I do see some low left hits which corresponds to recoil anticipation, The rest look like decent shooting for a gun that is DAO.
I think its alot to do with the trigger still being a long DAO pull, But your anticipating that .40 recoil and that is throwing the rest off.

Solution? imo practice.
If you ever needed to use your weapon in SD i think your shooting decently enough to get the job done.

If your really concerned about your guns accuracy being off, Next time at the range sit on a chair and rest the gun on the table top or gun case and use that as a supported shot and work on your trigger pulls to get them as smooth as possible.
I think you will see the gun is much more accurate once on a rest.

That would prove you just need more practice if your not happy with your targets now, Which imo ive seen alot worse and those dont look bad at all to me even for 15' as i mainly shoot 21' myself as a max distance for ccw guns.

Wonderclam
October 20, 2010, 04:52 PM
The winchester groups don't look bad at all. I'd say some of the flyers are attributable to shooter error instead of the pistol or ammunition.

I have always found Fiocchi ammunition to be inaccurate in most of my guns, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

To really determine your pistol's accuracy you need to get some good quality ammunition and shoot it from a rest.

What ammo do you recommend? Also, Is a Ruger P95, SR9/40 or Springfield XDM9/40 going to be more accurate than this?

doc2rn
October 20, 2010, 04:53 PM
Honestly that Sigma is shooting far and above the one I bought in college. Mine shot consistently 2.5 inch groups that where all low left. Then I tried Glock had a Kaboom and now found the ultimate 9mm in my opinion the FNP-9.

KodiakBeer
October 20, 2010, 05:11 PM
It isn't the ammo and it isn't the gun (though you'd certainly learn easier on a gun without a Glock style trigger). You should be able to make a ragged one-hole group with any pistol at 5 yards.

Practice, practice, practice. That includes sitting at home and dry firing your weapon several hundred times a day. Balance a coin on the muzzle and dry fire at the TV set. Make a game of it...

ForumSurfer
October 20, 2010, 05:20 PM
Sigma's are Glock clones, so are specifically designed with a poor (long and mushy) trigger pull. It takes a lot more practice to get proficient with such a trigger, so knuckle down and shoot more.

That trigger takes some getting used to. I could shoot the center out of a target all day long with a 1911, but when I tried learning with a Glock (in a serious, dedicated way) it took LOTS of practice. My first targets were like yours, all over the place.

Get snap caps and dry fire, dry fire and dry fire some more. Get better trigger control.

After I shaped up my trigger pull on the glock, someone told me a neat idea that would work. Have a friend load your mags and make him/her add a snap in at random intervals in your mags. Watch what your front sight does when you click that snap cap. More than likely you are doing like many people (myself included at first) and pushing to the left because of the weird feeling trigger if you aren't used to it.

But most of all, practice, practice, practice. The gun is much more accurate than we are 90+% of the time. :)

schmeky
October 20, 2010, 05:24 PM
Wonderclam,

I can read between the lines on your posts. You're not happy with the .40 Sigma. You have the impression it's not accurate. You say you have fixed the infamous Sigma trigger. That's good. Here is what I would suggest:

Bench rest it at 15 yards
Have someone you know that is a very good shooter give it a try
Find someone that reloads and have them load some dummy rounds. Mix a few of these dummies in your hand with your good ammo. Don't look at the mag when you load. Now shoot. My guess is you'll be shocked at what you find.

The Sigma IS very accurate at 15 yards. Others have given good advice. Practice, learn trigger control. Your shots are a little low and left; classic anticipation and flincing. Besides, the second target looks very good.

writerinmo
October 20, 2010, 06:40 PM
Mine was consistently shooting low, I just had to compensate for it. Then one day my front sight was gone. I put a Hi Viz fiber-optic front sight for a Glock on it. This is my latest target, Federal 180gr FMJ at 25 feet. This is printed on a standard sheet of printer paper.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y120/handymanks/SW%20SW40VE/scan0001.jpg

The Wiry Irishman
October 20, 2010, 06:59 PM
It isn't the ammo and it isn't the gun (though you'd certainly learn easier on a gun without a Glock style trigger). You should be able to make a ragged one-hole group with any pistol at 5 yards.

Exactly. No pistol is that mechanically inaccurate to print groups that large at only 15 feet. Your first instinct whenever you're unhappy with the way you're shooting should be to blame yourself. If you blame your equipment all the time, you'll never improve.

Kingofthehill
October 20, 2010, 07:03 PM
Thats not bad shooting at all. That is "Combat Accurate" For the price of the sigma, thats a fair set of results.

now saying that, i have over 15k rounds with my sigma's and i can shoot them very accurately. Although they still don't keep up with my 1911's, M&P's, CZ's, or even glocks... but they keep up with my Rugers, Taurus and polymer EAA stuff i shoot.

JOe

Wonderclam
October 20, 2010, 07:09 PM
Thats not bad shooting at all. That is "Combat Accurate" For the price of the sigma, thats a fair set of results.

now saying that, i have over 15k rounds with my sigma's and i can shoot them very accurately. Although they still don't keep up with my 1911's, M&P's, CZ's, or even glocks... but they keep up with my Rugers, Taurus and polymer EAA stuff i shoot.

JOe

I thought the Rugers were just as accurate as Glocks and M&Ps?

Kingofthehill
October 20, 2010, 07:11 PM
What ammo do you recommend? Also, Is a Ruger P95, SR9/40 or Springfield XDM9/40 going to be more accurate than this?

I own everything you list here except for the SR40 since it just came out. As for any of those being more accurate than the sigma? They can be. I know im better with my P95, and both my XDm 9 and 40. But my SR9 (old trigger) puts the same pattern on paper as i do with my sigmas.

the XDm's you lsited are going to be the msot accurate of the group though. They are very fine guns and very accurate. If you have the money to swing on those and you find it comfortable in your hands and easy to shoot, you won't regret it.

But consider that the XDm opposed to the SR9, p95 and Sigma are in 2 very seperate classes. the XDm is a rolls royce opposed to the others. NOTHING wrong with the others but its not really a fair fight. You would have to compare the XDm with the M&P, CZ SP-01, Glock 17/34, FNP, FNX, CZ 75, HK p2000.

are you looking for a carry gun? Truck gun? Home defense gun? range/target gun?

because if you want a Target gun and amazing accuracy, look into a 1911, high power, cz75, eaa witness match, Glock 34 (just a few examples of very accurate firearms)

Wonderclam
October 20, 2010, 07:14 PM
hmmm.. I saw a Colt 1911 series 80 on the classified ads yesterday for cheap. Would that be any good?

Also, the ONLY shooting range anywhere near close to my house is a stand-up only indoor shooting range. So, I have to stand, hold the gun in my hands and shoot. No sitting and resting the gun on the table while shooting.

How about Beretta 92FS? Where does that belong?

Kingofthehill
October 20, 2010, 07:15 PM
I thought the Rugers were just as accurate as Glocks and M&Ps?

enhhh.... i know i can out shoot most of the people i know with my p95, SR9 and even SR9c no matter what they have in their hands but a good shooter Vs. good shooter... the Rugers aren't Glock or M&P quality.

The new SR9's are getting there and we aren't talking being very far off but the price difference does get you a more accurate higher quality gun. And i own everything i have suggested.

it just comes down as to is 200 bucks worth a 1" difference in group size from 15 feet? maybe 2-3" difference? where do you draw the line ya know?

the rugers are fantastic guns for the money, but their more known for their durability and longevity over their accuracy.

Kingofthehill
October 20, 2010, 07:19 PM
As for the 1911 colt being better? everyone is different.

your talking a very different trigger system/feel/break from a 1911 to a polymer gun. usually a few pounds of pull difference as well.

Too bad you didn't have more access to rent/try different stuff before you fork over the cash. An afternoon with someone with a good selection would really get you to have a solid idea of what you like and what you want out of a pistol.

remember though, you will probably shoot great groups with a 1911 but is the cost of ammo difference worth it? and if its your nightstand or carry gun, is the weight and 8-9 shots over 13-15 shots worth the accuracy as well?

so many trade offs. The solution is to buy them all! hehehehe

Wonderclam
October 20, 2010, 07:37 PM
I wish I can buy them all... I've only begun, though. I'll be buying more and more over time. I can probably treat myself to a new pistol every 6 months or so.

Probably gonna buy a Glock 17 next.

Kingofthehill
October 20, 2010, 07:42 PM
See how the 17 fits in your hand first. Im 6'3" 270, and can palm a basketball no problem and i HATE the feel the/grip size of the glock 17... but i LOVE the feel of the Glock 19.

So take that into consideration when looking at the 17. But other than that, its a great gun with tons of aftermarket to really get that trigger smooth if you want to do that.

JOe

Yarddog
October 20, 2010, 07:58 PM
If the OP keeps on shooting that sigma, The there groups WILL tighten up. Trigger time
is the key, I like the 9mm much better, Quicker follow up shots. Hang in there ; )
Y/D

DasFriek
October 20, 2010, 08:03 PM
Keep your Sigma unless you hate it, All guns take time to be accurate with.
I have about 500 rounds threw my XD SC .40 and id say my targets would look similier to yours if i was shooting unsupported. But im getting better with it with each mag i shoot.

But im 2x more accurate with my 5" 1911, But that doesn't mean you would be. I have 2k rounds threw that gun and enough money in upgrades to buy a small car.

KodiakBeer
October 20, 2010, 08:08 PM
Try this one: http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/p/argentine-fm-90-high-power%2C-9mm-very-good-condition-hi-power-model/products_id/4230?osCsid=7e9b64dc10ba068bd09a4f5eda09117d

If you do, you may never go back to a Glock-style trigger. You'll be making one hole groups with this style of trigger.

Mac's Precision
October 20, 2010, 08:27 PM
Most shooters suffer from poor trigger control. I get pistols in occasionally for "sight adjustments" or complaints of huge groups. Out of those guns I rarely find one that has a real problem. I got a customer's Sig in with complaints of 8 inch groups at 50 feet. I would suggest that I have never seen a Sig shoot THAT bad. I shot it...from 50 feet...with HIS ammo he provided. 1.125 inch group was the result. Exactly to point of aim.. I gave him the target back with his gun and box of ammo. I further included some written suggestions on how to improve his shooting skills. It was the driver...not the race car.

I would suggest that you buy some snap caps and dry fire your gun about 50 times every day. Learn to be aware of when and how the trigger breaks. Learn to hold the trigger to the rear when it fires. After the slide cycles then allow the trigger forward just enough to get the trigger to reset. Focus on that front sight...fixate on it and chant in your head..... Front sight....and....squeeeeeze. Do this until the trigger breaks. This will encourage smooth trigger operation. Smooth is more accurate....smooth will be fast with practice.

Most of what I see in pistol group issues is from losing focus on the front sight and proper trigger squeeze. Shooters move their eyes from the front sight to the rear...to the target and so on. They are worried about front sight and rear sight light gap...they are worried about keeping the sights level.... Then they worry about the position of the front sight ON the target. They chase this multi plane picture around trying to align them all and then they worry about trigger pull....which ends up being snatched rather than squeezed.

Proper handgun grip and body posture will encourage easy alignment of the front and rear sight so you don't have to worry about light gap. If you are standing correctly ....the pistol will be level.. you should only have to focus intently on the front sight and subconsciously squeeze. If the shot surprises you ....GOOD. If you anticipate when it will break....it will not be a good shot. You can have someone test you for flinching. Have them rack the slide for you between shots. Occasionally and randomly giving you an empty chamber. If you see that muzzle dip down when the trigger snaps....you are flinching.

Cheers
Mac.

KodiakBeer
October 20, 2010, 08:29 PM
Oh, one more suggestion! Forget the range - you live in LV, so drive out into the desert with some tin cans and just blaze away. There's something about a range that makes a relative newbie uncomfortable - maybe it's people watching or the restricted environment or other guns going off... At any rate, if you just blaze away at some cans on your own some place (pick them up when you're done) and have fun, you'll relax and shoot much better.

Robert Wilson
October 20, 2010, 08:36 PM
I don't think I saw anybody ask him how his groups are with other guns. Maybe I missed it, but I'll ask anyway: how are your groups with your .22?

9mmepiphany
October 20, 2010, 08:41 PM
How about Beretta 92FS? Where does that belong?

I would rank the Beretta with the leaders of the pack...the H&Ks and Sig...my Beretta 96 has been much more accurate than any Sig 226/229, H&K USP or Glock 22 I have shot.

Remember that getting better isn't just about practice, you need to practice correctly, otherwise you're just reinforcing bad habits.

If you really are taking your time (1+ sec per shot) shooting the groups in your picture, I would suggest that besides inconsistent trigger control, that your are shooting with variants in your grip pressure too. You might consider some instruction to teach correct trigger control

Wonderclam
October 20, 2010, 09:21 PM
I don't think I saw anybody ask him how his groups are with other guns. Maybe I missed it, but I'll ask anyway: how are your groups with your .22?

I'm much better with my Ruger Single-Six than my SW Sigma. Maybe it's because I don't anticipate the recoil?

Robert Wilson
October 20, 2010, 09:34 PM
Almost certainly. As others have pointed out, it's extremely unlikely that your Sigma is that inaccurate. It is pretty difficult to shoot, however, especially as compared to your Single Six. I agree with the suggestions that dry-fire practice may be a real help to you. I would even incorporate dry-fire into your range plan. Mixing live fire with dry fire - and carefully watching the sights with every shot - is almost certain to shrink your groups dramatically.

Good luck!

DenaliPark
October 20, 2010, 09:48 PM
The winchester groups don't look bad at all. I'd say some of the flyers are attributable to shooter error instead of the pistol or ammunition.

I have always found Fiocchi ammunition to be inaccurate in most of my guns, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

To really determine your pistol's accuracy you need to get some good quality ammunition and shoot it from a rest.
Fiocchi inaccurate? Hmm, I've found their 9mm loads to be among the very best, their loads are much hotter then the other target ammo he shoots with, keep in mind that he is shooting a Sigma, a pistol that more often then not sells NIB for about $260.00!

Regarding the OP, a Beretta 92FS will cost you considerablly more then your Sigma, likely an additional four-hundred bucks or so, but you will shoot much tighter groups then those you've posted with the S&W, which BTW really aren't bad at all....

bds
October 20, 2010, 09:53 PM
Many times at the range, people complain about how "lousy" their guns shoot. They look at me shooting 1/2 sheet copy paper as targets at 7-20 yards and they say, "Now you must be shooting accurate guns!".

I politely ask permission to shoot their pistols at the same 1/2 sheet copy paper targets and rapid fire tight shot groups to their amazement. I return the pistols and say, "Nice accurate pistol you got there." :D

We become fast friends as I show them proper shooting stance, grip and trigger control.

Some times I pack up fast and leave when the wife starts to outshoot the husband. :rolleyes:

PT1911
October 20, 2010, 10:04 PM
when you shrink your groups to under a few inches, then and only then will the accuracy of the gun come into play... At 15 feet, in a rest, any appropriately working gun will put the bullets awfully close to one another... I can assure you that you will not notice the difference in accuracy between your sigma and a competition gun... The trigger and sights? you can note a huge improvement... In accuracy, not so much..

Your best bet is to get more range time to improve your aim, grip, stance, and trigger control... otherwise you wont be happy with any "gun's" accuracy...

dwhite
October 20, 2010, 10:17 PM
I got about the same groups with my SW40VE when I first bought it. Practice, lots of rounds down range and I can now keep 10 shots in 4 inches at 15 yards. Probably a good 300 rounds before groups really tightened up.

I'd always shot revolvers so the Sigma trigger while heavy wasn't too unfamiliar. It just took practice.

Lastly, there is GREAT satisfaction when you're at the range happily blazing away with your Sigma and the person next to you is having a jam-fest with their new $1200 whatever and they finally stop and ask what you're shooting. Priceless!

All the Best,
D. White

P.S. Practice.

labhound
October 20, 2010, 10:21 PM
Wonderclam sometimes you find a gun that you just don't shoot accurately with. It might be the gun, it might be you, either way sometimes things just don't mesh and you don't shoot the gun accurately. I had an SR9, good gun, but I shoot my Beretta 92FS, my Stoeger Cougar 8000 F 9mm and 8045 more accurately, so I sold the SR9 to a friend who loves it. Sometimes a gun just doesn't fit your hand right and you don't shoot that great with it. No big deal. Find something else, move on and enjoy shooting.

bds
October 20, 2010, 10:53 PM
One tip: Before you buy your next pistol, look at the front sight while you press the trigger - I use the "pad" of my index finger while "pressing" the trigger back.

If the front sight moves as the hammer/striker falls, dry fire it several more times while watching the front sight. If the front sight continues to move, don't buy that pistol.

If the front sight stays steady and barely moves, buy that pistol. This will significantly improve your accuracy and shot groups. :D

Wonderclam
October 20, 2010, 11:19 PM
You guys are shooting from far away from where I'm shooting. 1 yard = 3 feet. Some guy said he shoots 3" groupings in 15 yards.. that's close to 50 feet.

9mmepiphany
October 21, 2010, 01:02 AM
You guys are shooting from far away from where I'm shooting. 1 yard = 3 feet. Some guy said he shoots 3" groupings in 15 yards.. that's close to 50 feet.
Your math is correct.

Most ranges where I have shot have a minimum distance of 7 yards = 21. Most quality handguns can be held to 1" groups at this distance, when taking their time between shots. At ~double that distance, 15 yards (=45'), I would expect something <2-3"...shooting as fast as your sights return onto target all your shots should be well inside 6" (the center of an 8" plate)

Remember that the old standard for a combat handgun was the ability to hold a 4" group at 50 yards from the roll-over prone position

KodiakBeer
October 21, 2010, 01:33 PM
I usually don't take "group" pictures, but I just bought an Argy Hi Power ($299) and wrung it out.

The group below was shot at 23 yards (because a pile of rocks was at 25 yards). So, 70 feet or so. It's just over two inches shot slow fire, offhand.

There's two reasons for that group, one is simply experience (which you'll have before long) and the other is because it's a crisp single action trigger - no way I could shoot such a group with one of the mushy triggers found on new plastic guns.

I've now taken the Mag disconnect out (which lightens the trigger in Hi Powers) so I should get even better results next time.

Wonderclam
October 21, 2010, 01:50 PM
Were you shooting with rested hands?

KodiakBeer
October 21, 2010, 02:07 PM
Nope, standing and shooting offhand at my dirt-berm-in-the-woods gun research facility.

This is the gun: http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/p/argentine-fm-90-high-power%2C-9mm-very-good-condition-hi-power-model/products_id/4230?osCsid=2ca004e6d0e8c7d3af0d05a62ab780bd

KodiakBeer
October 21, 2010, 02:17 PM
Check this out: http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=420826

Too_Pure
October 21, 2010, 03:11 PM
Most shooters suffer from poor trigger control. I get pistols in occasionally for "sight adjustments" or complaints of huge groups. Out of those guns I rarely find one that has a real problem. I got a customer's Sig in with complaints of 8 inch groups at 50 feet. I would suggest that I have never seen a Sig shoot THAT bad. I shot it...from 50 feet...with HIS ammo he provided. 1.125 inch group was the result. Exactly to point of aim.. I gave him the target back with his gun and box of ammo. I further included some written suggestions on how to improve his shooting skills. It was the driver...not the race car.

I would suggest that you buy some snap caps and dry fire your gun about 50 times every day. Learn to be aware of when and how the trigger breaks. Learn to hold the trigger to the rear when it fires. After the slide cycles then allow the trigger forward just enough to get the trigger to reset. Focus on that front sight...fixate on it and chant in your head..... Front sight....and....squeeeeeze. Do this until the trigger breaks. This will encourage smooth trigger operation. Smooth is more accurate....smooth will be fast with practice.

Most of what I see in pistol group issues is from losing focus on the front sight and proper trigger squeeze. Shooters move their eyes from the front sight to the rear...to the target and so on. They are worried about front sight and rear sight light gap...they are worried about keeping the sights level.... Then they worry about the position of the front sight ON the target. They chase this multi plane picture around trying to align them all and then they worry about trigger pull....which ends up being snatched rather than squeezed.

Proper handgun grip and body posture will encourage easy alignment of the front and rear sight so you don't have to worry about light gap. If you are standing correctly ....the pistol will be level.. you should only have to focus intently on the front sight and subconsciously squeeze. If the shot surprises you ....GOOD. If you anticipate when it will break....it will not be a good shot. You can have someone test you for flinching. Have them rack the slide for you between shots. Occasionally and randomly giving you an empty chamber. If you see that muzzle dip down when the trigger snaps....you are flinching.

Cheers
Mac.
I am so glad I read this thread. Thank you Mac.

I've been shooting about a month and half with an M&P 40 and slowly getting better, but still not great. It's like sometimes I can just feel that I nailed it, and the shot is dead on where I wanted it. I can always tell when a shot will be off because I can feel what I did wrong before the shot hits the target. Practice practice practice.

And KodiakBeer's suggestion to go to the desert and blaze away is a good one. I greatly prefer this to the indoor range, especially now that the weather is cooling down. I can shoot from the hip, play out tactical scenarios, take my time, etc. Plus we can set up 100 yard rifle targets.

Furncliff
October 21, 2010, 09:11 PM
Just my .02. You can not progress in accuracy unless you know what your weapon is capable of. You don't know what your gun is capable of if you have not shot from a rest. A simple wood rest is simple to cobble together. I go back to the rest all the time with all my firearms. And invariably the little voice says..."yes, this gun is just fine... it is thee who sucks".

JDGray
October 21, 2010, 09:23 PM
Next time out shooting(after some dryfire practice) have a buddy load your mag each shot, sometimes with ammo, and sometimes without. Watch your front sight jump when the gun is empty! Keep practicing untill it doesn't move off the target, empty or loaded;)

Dryfire with a coin on the front of your slide, it should stay on there when your doing it right.

The Lone Haranguer
October 21, 2010, 09:31 PM
I think the shooter needs more work. :) It is inconceivable that the gun itself shoots groups like that. I am seeing a number of low and left hits, indicating a recoil anticipation problem (i.e., a flinch). Also, despite the fact that you've lightened and smoothed the Sigma's trigger pull, it still has a relatively long stroke and heavy trigger compared to some other guns. You want to treat it as the DAO action it is, and wrap more of your finger around the trigger - almost to or into the crease of your first finger joint - not press it with your fingertip. Granted, it may not be the easiest pistol to work with, especially for a new shooter.

Confederate
October 21, 2010, 09:33 PM
Adjust the little nut behind the trigger.
Oh come on, Reaper. You don't know him well enough to engage in name calling!

9mmepiphany
October 21, 2010, 09:36 PM
Just my .02. You can not progress in accuracy unless you know what your weapon is capable of. You don't know what your gun is capable of if you have not shot from a rest. A simple wood rest is simple to cobble together. I go back to the rest all the time with all my firearms. And invariably the little voice says..."yes, this gun is just fine... it is thee who sucks".

This subject often comes up and I try to save pertinent bits of wisdom from different threads. These came from a thread about: Why people take multiple classes and never seem to improve. You can take them for what they are worth, but I have found them to be the Wisdom at the Center of Truth

A failure to recognize that success in handgun marksmanship is about operating the pistol, not hitting the target.

Handgun marksmanship really shouldn't be hard to master! Breaking a shot is every bit as simple and easy as dry-firing, since the techniques and skills required are exactly the same. Everyone can learn to release the hammer without disturbing the sights when the pistol is unloaded.

Shooting is dry-firing with noise and recoil. It's about the process of operating the pistol. It has nothing to do with trying to hit the target, which is about results and expectations that distract us from operating the pistol.

9mmepiphany
October 21, 2010, 09:39 PM
Oh come on, Reaper. You don't know him well enough to engage in name calling!

:p

I shouldn't, but that is funny :neener:

bds
October 21, 2010, 09:53 PM
I usually have good success with new shooters orienting to proper stance, grip and trigger control, but one shooter just had a real problem getting consistent shot groups at even close 5 yards.

I finally put a blindfold on him and had him "point shoot" to a new target. Well, he shot better with his eyes closed than open. :eek:

Now, he can quick draw from holster and "point shoot" consistent small shot groups. :rolleyes:

Wonderclam
October 21, 2010, 11:17 PM
Ok, I bought a Springfield XDM 9mm and I got this at 30 feet. MUCH MUCH better. And this is the first time I shot this pistol.

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9222/img0243me.jpg

Kingofthehill
October 21, 2010, 11:20 PM
Great shooting for the first trip!

I told you the XDm was a more accurate gun. Its a totally different level than the Sigma.

the sigma's are good for the money, but they can't compare to the Glock, XDm, M&P, FN, CZ ect.....

Great shooting!... you'll be making some ragged holes in no time!

JOe

KodiakBeer
October 22, 2010, 02:45 AM
Another Glock clone? Well, at least the ammo is cheaper in 9mm. If you work at overcoming the terrible trigger, you'll be able to shoot a group some day.

tack
October 22, 2010, 02:54 AM
I've a 22 target pistol. Every time I think the 9mm or 45auto is shooting wild, I go shoot the target gun. That quickly pins down the problem between me or the gun. I also dry fire a lot.

If you can't call your shots, then you need to dry fire more. The point being that if you can't call your shots then you are not looking at the sights when the pistol goes boom.

bds
October 22, 2010, 11:31 AM
If you can't call your shots, then you need to dry fire more. The point being that if you can't call your shots then you are not looking at the sights when the pistol goes boom.
Here's a training video on "shot calling" using iron sights (http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid61181609001) - when the page opens, click on "Shot Calling" video on the right.

Other shooting training/tips videos and links - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=508844&highlight=US+Army

Strahley
October 22, 2010, 11:59 AM
Looks like you need to work on your shooting. On a rest I'd bet money that it would make a single ragged hole at 5 yards easy

j21blackjack
October 22, 2010, 12:23 PM
I didn't see anyone else mention it, so I'll do it. There is a very, very easy fix for the Sigma's terrible trigger. It involves field stripping the gun, then removing the striker assembly and removing two unnecessary springs. These two springs are what make the trigger pull so freaking heavy. It took me all of 15 minutes to do this, and difference is night and day. It's like getting a whole new gun. Here's a direct link to the post that explains it the best http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/non-xd-handguns/101197-sigma-trigger-fix.html.

Wonderclam
October 22, 2010, 02:03 PM
I didn't see anyone else mention it, so I'll do it. There is a very, very easy fix for the Sigma's terrible trigger. It involves field stripping the gun, then removing the striker assembly and removing two unnecessary springs. These two springs are what make the trigger pull so freaking heavy. It took me all of 15 minutes to do this, and difference is night and day. It's like getting a whole new gun. Here's a direct link to the post that explains it the best http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/non-xd-...igger-fix.html.

Yeah, I did that and it helped a lot. I smoothed out the back of the metal rocker plate, too. Now the trigger is super smooth.

Wonderclam
October 26, 2010, 04:39 PM
I'm doing MUCH, MUCH better. This is at 30 feet, done earlier this morning:

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/8403/img0250qz.jpg

Thinking of even doing more trigger mods on my XDM 9mm.

9mmforMe
October 26, 2010, 08:14 PM
Geez I feel I have to stand up for the P95!!

I have shot against (plinking) MPs, Glocks, 1911s and Sigs and shot better than all of 'em. Now this was shooting with people I met at the range for the day and just had some spur of the moment fun. I have also shot against myself using the same guns at different times in the past and easily shot as well, if not better. Now I am by no means the best shot around, but I would put my Ruger up against any other combat pistol!!

Dammit, Rugers are NOT second class citizens!! ;)

And you...brother Sigma, hiding in the corner...come over here and let you love light shine!

BCRider
October 27, 2010, 12:11 AM
I'd say from your last target that you've done more to fix your flinch than you did on the gun. Your Sigma target from early in the thread has all the signs of someone that is pulling the trigger with their whole hand.. and maybe their left hand as well. Your first target with the new gun a few posts back shows that you're better but still with the classic pulling down and to the left. But with less of a pure reactive flinch. THe most recent target seems like you've gotten it down to where your hands are stabley supporting the gun and only your trigger finger is moving with no change to your other muscles that are supporting the gun.

All in all I'll bet with your "inner peace" at it's present state you could go back to the Sigma and find that it shoots as nicely as your XDM now. Because by now you should be realizing that it never was about the gun but about you. That bit about good shooting skill being about dry firing with smoke and noise was spot on... :D

ratt_finkel
October 27, 2010, 12:37 AM
Those are some neat targets. I wish my range had something as modern. Nice shooting and congrats on the purchase!

Wonderclam
October 27, 2010, 03:19 PM
Those are some neat targets. I wish my range had something as modern. Nice shooting and congrats on the purchase!

Every single person that works at the range are complete jerks. Too bad it's the only range not too far from my house, a 45 min drive.

bds
October 29, 2010, 02:43 PM
You need to go to a range in Las Vegas?

Around where we live, there's so many drive by shooting and weapons discharging at night that I could probably shoot in the alleyway and no one would blink an eye. :eek:

Seriously, I use an indoor range about 20 minutes from my house as most other outdoor ranges are 45 minutes drive away.

Every single person that works at the range are complete jerks.
The economic downturn has been hard on everyone and believe me, this sentiment rolls down the management to workers. You may not know, but they may be working on the "edge" of being laid off next. We had some new guys hired at the range and they also became "jerks" when customers found out they didn't know much about firearms and treated them bad. I have good relationships with all the range staff and we all have bad days ... I hope that's the case but Las Vegas? Now, that's another planet altogether dealing with crazy tourists who want to go Rambo at ranges.

FLAvalanche
October 29, 2010, 04:44 PM
No pistol is that mechanically inaccurate to print groups that large at only 15 feet.

You should shoot my Taurus PT-138...It shoots worse and Taurus can't figure it out.

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