What if 1911 never existed?


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TexasGunbie
October 20, 2010, 09:44 PM
The discussion is not to imagine what world would be like without 1911... but the question is as follows.

If 1911 never existed, what would be the current best handgun that shoots 45acp?

BRAINSTORM!

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Isher
October 20, 2010, 09:54 PM
CZ 97B (or BD if you like decockers) right out of the box.

Now ask a really hard question :D


Isher

dovedescending
October 20, 2010, 09:54 PM
Well, Browning invented the .45 acp specifically to use in the protoypes that became the 1911... so I'm going to have to go with "no guns would be chambered for .45 acp."

docnyt
October 20, 2010, 10:04 PM
Sig p220?

Mike OTDP
October 20, 2010, 10:06 PM
Remington Model 53. It was the gun that beat the 1911 in Navy/Marine Corps tests, was supposed to be adopted...then World War I intervened.

pvthouse
October 20, 2010, 10:12 PM
Glock 21.

Oyeboten
October 20, 2010, 10:18 PM
The Colt-Browning Models 1905, 1907, and 1910 .45 Autoloaders then...if no Model 1911 were to be available.

I used to have a Model 1905 .45 ACP an it was a sweetie...if preferring slightly reduced Loadings to it's younger Brother, the Model 1911.

swinokur
October 20, 2010, 10:24 PM
If we didn't have the 1911, we'd be speaking German or Japanese.

:uhoh:

TexasGunbie
October 21, 2010, 01:23 AM
If we didn't have the 1911, we'd be speaking German or Japanese.


why??

harmon rabb
October 21, 2010, 06:34 AM
If we didn't have the 1911, we'd be speaking German or Japanese.

Ah. One of the guys that thinks handguns win wars. They don't. They're almost not even a factor in war. Most infantry WW2 weren't even issued pistols, iirc.

Zerodefect
October 21, 2010, 06:58 AM
....then we'd still be shooting revolvers. Do you really think semi-auto's would have ever become popuar without the 1911's help?

Otherwise Glock 23/22/21.



Whats interesting to me is that noone has really come out with an all steel direct competitior to the 1911 with modern tech. I think thats just because such a weapon would be too expensive to produce. Too much of a risk for the manufacturer.

Imagine a modern 1911 with:
-full cocked Striker, no hammer
-ramped barrel, no bushing or barrel link
-high capacity mags (similar to STI maybe)
-SA trigger

Now that would grab my attention, after all the 1911 is 100years old. Should be a way to make an original design thats just as good without going the cheap polymer and DA trigger route.

Joe Demko
October 21, 2010, 07:47 AM
If there had been no 1911, then I see the US either sticking with a revolver or following everybody else down the 9mm-ish route. Historically, the US was the only major player who thought a big bore automatic pistol necessary. The tiny few other countries that used one got them from us, licensed them from us, or just outright counterfeited them.
Had we gone down the mid-bore route, who knows? Perhaps there would have been a domestic design adopted. Maybe we would have licensed production of some foreign piece. Regardless, I agree that if there hadn't been a 1911 there wouldn't be a .45 acp. The 1910 and other 1911 predecessors would be historical footnotes along with the cartridge they fired.

harmon rabb
October 21, 2010, 07:48 AM
If you get rid of your striker requirement, there are a variety of CZ pistols that fit. :rolleyes:

DonRon
October 21, 2010, 07:53 AM
The Europeans have been very successful with all other calibers over the years. The .45 ACP is not by any means the end all, be all in handgun calibers. It just might be the worst!

swinokur
October 21, 2010, 08:47 AM
If we didn't have the 1911, we'd be speaking German or Japanese.


Lighten up fellas. It was done tongue in cheek because of the fanaticism about the pistol

IlikeSA
October 21, 2010, 08:54 AM
Hey ZeroDefect, didn't you just describe the XD?

-full cocked Striker, no hammer (Check)
-ramped barrel, no bushing or barrel link )not sure about the ramped barrel, but bushingless and barrel linkless)
-high capacity mags (Check)
-SA trigger (mushy, but SA)

easyg
October 21, 2010, 09:24 AM
The .45 ACP is not by any means the end all, be all in handgun calibers. It just might be the worst!
Please explain.

Radagast
October 21, 2010, 09:37 AM
The 1911 not exist? You Atheist!
As for the best platform for the .45 ACP, sans 1911? Probably the Glock 21 or the S&W M&P. Of course, then it would be known as .45 GAP or .45 S&W Auto. :)
The platform that it would have ended up in would probably have been the Savage Model of 1907, which was the runner up in the pistol trials that ended with the acceptance of the 1911.

Jim Watson
October 21, 2010, 09:47 AM
There would still have been a .45; the Army set out a requirement for the caliber in 1906. There was even an ACP length rimmed round (NOT the same as .45 Auto Rim) to be used by anybody who wanted to enter a revolver in the trials.

Browning and Colt had anticipated the trend in 1905. I have always assumed that they heard of the Thompson-Lagarde tests and saw what was going to be wanted. They sure gave up on the .41 ACP.

I wonder if there would have been Savage and Remington autos if there had not been the Colt/Browning guns. One thing dictating Searle's and Pedersen's design work was the very comprehensive set of Browning patents that limited what they could do. Maybe they would have come up with their guns anyhow; no way to know at this late date.

Mad Magyar
October 21, 2010, 09:55 AM
I have always assumed that they heard of the Thompson-Lagarde tests and saw what was going to be wanted.
For the uninititated, in a nut-shell with firing into dead & live carcasses, they concluded that "bigger was better"....:)

Joe Demko
October 21, 2010, 10:02 AM
I don't doubt that there would still have been a .45. What I doubt is that, without the 1911 pistol, it would have become popular. It's no secret that the civilian market tends to want what the military has. There were other "big bore" auto cartridges in the early years of autos. None of them caught on like the .45 acp did. That gummint stamp of approval meant a lot.
The Savage pistol that competed against the 1911 wasn't nearly as good a design. If the military had adopted it, I could easily see them being dissatisfied with it and ditching pretty quickly. If still wedded to the idea of a .45, then I guess it would have been back to the revolvers already in stock...especially if we were involved in WWI.

SlamFire1
October 21, 2010, 10:02 AM
If 1911 never existed, what would be the current best handgun that shoots 45acp?

Who said the M1911 is the best 45 ACP on today's market?

Back in 1911 it was the best semi automatic pistol but it was not sufficiently advanced to cause all Armies to replace their revolvers.

The British kept Webley's until WWII, the Russians may still have some revolvers in service. The US was still issuing revolvers during WWII. I am aware of guys who carried revolvers in Vietnam. One who carried a Ruger Blackhawk in 357!. And he carried that in combat.

When the P38 became the standard service pistol of Germany in 1938, the concept of a single stack, single action semi auto matic pistol became obsolete over night.

Pyro
October 21, 2010, 10:03 AM
Then I guess we'd been using the Colt 1905 or Browning would have developed a different gun in similar caliber.
edit: I mean to say if the 1911 was never made, there would have been new developments leading up to today.

yeti
October 21, 2010, 11:46 AM
If we didn't have the 1911, we'd be speaking Tagalog.

:neener:

EdLaver
October 21, 2010, 11:51 AM
I've always pondered a Beretta 92fs in .45acp. That would be nice if the 1911 never existed.

longhair75
October 21, 2010, 12:24 PM
At every discussion about the sacred 1911 I often wonder why, if this is the absolute best pistol design, why J.M. Browning went on to design the Browning Hi Power 9mm.......

BlayGlock
October 21, 2010, 12:37 PM
Everyone knows that we would be speaking German bacuse a group of 1911s single-handedly stormed the beaches of Normandy and fought Charlie. That is what makes a 1911 a far superior weapon to any and all polymer weapons, especially Glock. Because the 1911 was winning wars by itself before Gaston was even born.

Joking aside, I vote H&K 45. Not the USP series but the new one.

Zundfolge
October 21, 2010, 12:47 PM
If the 1911 designed by John Moses Browning didn't exist, we'd all be talking about the Savage 1907 .45acp (which would likely have been called the 1911 when the US Army adopted it).

http://www.armchairgunshow.com/images/JA-SVG177.jpg

Lonestar49
October 21, 2010, 12:49 PM
...

Without doubt, had the 45 cal been developed for any and all guns other than the 1911 model - whoever would, finally, come up with the 1911 design, let's say, within just the last 5 or 10yrs would be a "very successful" person and the demand, for this new, different, platform, gun to this day, would be great..


Ls

swinokur
October 21, 2010, 12:49 PM
Everyone knows that we would be speaking German bacuse a group of 1911s single-handedly stormed the beaches of Normandy and fought Charlie. That is what makes a 1911 a far superior weapon to any and all polymer weapons, especially Glock. Because the 1911 was winning wars by itself before Gaston was even born.

This was the spirit of my OP


:(

Jim Watson
October 21, 2010, 01:20 PM
why J.M. Browning went on to design the Browning Hi Power 9mm.......

Because his contacts at FN told him they could sell guns to the French if he designed a nice 9mm. It did not work out that way, but that is why he started in on it and Dieudonne Saive finished it. (Largely by putting in 1911 design features when the patents ran out.)

Mr Browning was a pretty good businessman and he did not design guns in an ivory tower for the fun of it, he was designing guns that would sell.

Demitrios
October 21, 2010, 01:33 PM
Then we would've gone straight to 1912.

BlayGlock
October 21, 2010, 01:33 PM
I figured as much swinokur. I'm a 1911 guy guy but we deserve a good natured ribbing from time to time. I am suprised that there are less H&K answers on this thread givin the amount of love these guns have with the mall ninja leet operator crew.

Vern Humphrey
October 21, 2010, 01:53 PM
Browning's design (under contract to Colt) was selected in competition with about a half dozen other makes. If Browning hadn't designed the weapon selected, some other weapon would have been our standard.

If there had been no .45 ACP cartridge, and if the Army hadn't wanted an automatic, we would probably have stuck with the M1909, AKA the Colt New Service revolver in .45 Colt.

MYREDTAIL
October 22, 2010, 01:28 AM
My Glock 21 with out a doubt.

Taroman
October 22, 2010, 01:43 AM
Guess we would have carried 45 caliber Lugers.

Dr.Rob
October 22, 2010, 02:05 AM
Zundfolge beat me to it. That thing is a Buck Rogers pistol.

tinygnat219
October 22, 2010, 07:44 AM
Everyone knows that we would be speaking German bacuse a group of 1911s single-handedly stormed the beaches of Normandy and fought Charlie. That is what makes a 1911 a far superior weapon to any and all polymer weapons, especially Glock. Because the 1911 was winning wars by itself before Gaston was even born.

This is.... funny beyond all hell. Thank you for making my morning! :cool:

Birdmang
October 22, 2010, 09:00 AM
Thats like asking where rock and roll would or popular music without elvis...you just don't know.

Or where this forum would be without Birdmang.

SlamFire1
October 22, 2010, 11:47 AM
If the 1911 designed by John Moses Browning didn't exist, we'd all be talking about the Savage 1907 .45acp (which would likely have been called the 1911 when the US Army adopted it).


Don't know. Don't think so.

I have read everything I can get my hands on those tests and the adoption of the M1911.

The Army, particularly the Horse Cavalry, was happy with their New Service Revolvers. You have to remember, the Army likes what it has, wants something better but only a little different, and totally rejects revolutionary change.

An auto pistol was a big change for an organization whose leadership used, liked, and was familiar with the Colt Single Action Army. A double action pistol was a stretch, a new fangled auto pistol?: that was way out of their comfort zone. The Horse Cavalry was still around till WWII. They put their horses in horse trailers, drove to location, unloaded horses and troops, and practiced saber charges. These guys are not into change, never have been, and never will be.

That was the big reason it took so long to get an autopistol in service, and why the M1911 was developed into a reliable, powerful, and most advanced auto pistol of the period. Just look at the M1905 and the transition models. The Army always found something to complain about these early versions. One very real issue was reliability. Both the M1911 and Colt New Service revolver were endurance tested with 5000 rounds. Neither broke a part. I expect 5000 rounds was considered the service life of a pistol and the test was not a test to failure. The Army was not going to adopt a pistol that was less reliable than the Colt New Service. It took arm twisting to get them to adopt a semi auto that was equal in 5000 round reliability to the Colt New Service.

The Savage was not as reliable and would not have been adopted. Probably there would have been more competitions and who knows what design would have come forth. It is highly likely it would have been a John Browning design as he was the premier firearm designer of the period. Everything he designed worked, and worked well.

The Army tested the Luger. If you have ever handled the P-08, it is not as good as a M1911, eventually the Germans dumped it. I have heard it was dust sensitive among other issues.

DonRon
October 22, 2010, 12:04 PM
A lot of pistol smiths would have become jewelers!

cougar1717
October 22, 2010, 02:22 PM
Well, here you go...Without the 1911, the world would have just kept revolving since no one ever misses something that never existed in the first place. The US would have adopted something else as the "standard" military handgun, maybe even a 9mm (gasp!). The 1911 is iconic because of it's unique style, it's function as a semi-auto at the time, the caliber, and its' place in history as it relates to anything that is connected to WWII. Without the war and the glamour of it in movies of the time period, who knows, as silly as it sounds without the 1911, THR members may be discussing fully custom P-38's.

jon_in_wv
October 22, 2010, 05:56 PM
Well if the 1911 was never invented it would have saved me the trouble of buying the 4 1911s I've had over the years that I traded off because I got tired of trying to get them to work!

Then I would have just bought the P220 I have now. The 1911 may be the mother's milk of many guys but I like the P220 or the M&P 45s much better. BUT if it weren't for the popularity and reputation of the 1911 many of the fine .45s we have today might not have been made. There are few weapons sweeter than a good running 1911. The problem is that it seems there are few weapons RARER than a good running 1911. OK, thats not really true (mostly) but there are really fine .45s that don't wear the 1911 monicker that still owe their lineage to JMB so I still give the 1911 its due.

Old Navy
October 22, 2010, 08:14 PM
I have owned or shot most every brand of handgun at some time in the last 50 years and if there were no 1911's I'd be content with any of the H&K models I have ever shot. IMHO there is no better gun maker than H&K, outside the 1911 customs or semi customs.

EddieNFL
October 22, 2010, 08:58 PM
Ah. One of the guys that thinks handguns win wars. They don't. They're almost not even a factor in war. Most infantry WW2 weren't even issued pistols, iirc.
I think it was a joke and he forgot to post a disclaimer for the literalists.

jon_in_wv
October 23, 2010, 11:13 AM
When I was in the Marine Corps, and back then we traveled in our uniforms, I wore a 4th award expert badge for pistol and rifle. I was always stopped by other Marines because they never had to qualify with the pistol. In fact most Marines are never issued a pistol unless you are an MP (like me), or an Officer. I think you are correct the military would be largely unaffected with whatever pistol choice was made.

McGee
October 23, 2010, 11:31 AM
If 1911 never existed, what would be the current best handgun that shoots 45acp?

Oh my gosh..what a thought :uhoh:

Well, probably Glock would slip into its place as king of .45's

DasFriek
October 23, 2010, 11:40 AM
The real question is "What if beer didn't exist"?

zoom6zoom
October 23, 2010, 11:51 AM
The designers of the Tokarev would have had to copy someone else's design.

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