Best AK-47 for the money?


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Ricker
October 24, 2010, 08:28 PM
I know the WASR-10s are cheap, but I've heard some bad things about them. Arsenals are really nice, and that's what I really want, but they're a bit picey, some of them. I don't see the point in spending $1000 + for an AK. What would be the best AK for the money?

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WardenWolf
October 24, 2010, 08:35 PM
The bad reputation about WASR's primarily came from the earlier ones. The newer ones available now are actually quite nice. They're rough, and have surplus parts, but they're very solid, reliable guns. They're not lookers, but they're good shooters. Many of them have threaded barrels, as well, to allow you to install muzzle brakes and hiders. They're a very good deal for the money.

As for the Arsenals, they're a different animal. They're made from new-production Saiga rifles, made with new parts, modern tolerances, etc. They're fitted with premium parts and features. Both WASR's and Arsenals will be equally reliable, but the Arsenal is just a much more polished example.

Bottom line: if you want it to shoot good and be fun, and don't care as much how it looks, go WASR. If you're willing to pay for the better fit and finish, go Arsenal.

nalioth
October 24, 2010, 09:16 PM
As for the Arsenals, they're a different animal. They're made from new-production Saiga rifles, made with new parts, modern tolerances, etc.I think you're getting your wires crossed a little bit.

Arsenal, Inc of Las Vegas is Arsenal of Bulgaria's sales arm in the United States. They've been around since the early 2000s.

They made their name with Bulgarian model Kalashnikovs, of which they still sell many.

Their Saiga line is only about a year old.

jon_in_wv
October 24, 2010, 09:17 PM
Saiga.

DustyVermonter
October 24, 2010, 09:43 PM
Aye yea....the Saiga

migkillertwo
October 24, 2010, 09:47 PM
my wasr has been 100% after 300 rounds

Girodin
October 24, 2010, 10:09 PM
I think this question depends on exactly what the buyer wants. Form a shear performance stand point I think I self converted saiga is the best bang for the buck. For something that goes bang and has authentic AK looks then a WASR might be a better value. If one is after an accurate clone of a particular model then something else might be the best buy.

Another option I like for the money is a Draco SBR. That is likely my next AK platform weapon. I just need to decide how I will dress her up.

I agree $1K or anything close to it is laughable for an AK rifle.

Zundfolge
October 24, 2010, 10:18 PM
Saiga rifles are built in the same factory in Izhmash Russia that Soviet/Russian military AKs were made, so in essence its as close to a pure AK-47 (well actually AKM) you can get without dropping tons of cash and paying NFA tax.

They're also priced well. Downside is you'll likely have to convert it to original military configuration yourself.

Now if money is no object you can order a nice custom AK from Krebs (http://www.krebscustom.com/) but I gotta agree that if you're going to spend a kilobuck you might as well get something else *cough*AR*.cough*

nalioth
October 24, 2010, 10:28 PM
Now if money is no object you can order a nice custom AK from Krebs but I gotta agree that if you're going to spend a kilobuck you might as well get something else *cough*AR*.cough*My kilobuck will never be used on a *cough*AR*cough*.

Robinson Arms XCR
Sig 556
Daewoo K1/K2

AK reliability with AR15 ergos and mag capability.

I don't like rifles that poop on their own dinner plates.

GunTech
October 24, 2010, 10:39 PM
The one that works.

I've owned quite a few, and most recently bought a CAI (yes, Century) AK74 just because 5.45x39 ammo is so cheap. It does not have a chrome bore, which I think is desirable in any rifle that's going to shoot military surplus of unknown quality. I've resigned myself to be scrupulous about cleaning.

The only other nit is the canted front sight, for which CAI guns are notorious. This was quickly fixed with a lead hammer and a few well placed blows (nothing bent or damaged).

In the week I have owned it, I have fired 1060 rounds (one metal can of surplus ammo) with zero malfuntions. The gun was cleaned after two range sessions.

I feel like I got my $400 worth. The rifle shoots 2-3 MOA with irons off the bench, although after getting the rifle really hot, groups were more like 3-4 MOA.

I only have three magazines right now, so that really slowed down shooting. But so far, I like the rifle enough to invest in a tech sight, Galil grip and Galil style handguard (I like the bigger grip). I plan on stopping there.

I am looking at an Arsenal SGL-31 just for the chrome bore. Best price I've found is about double what I paid for the CAI.

WardenWolf
October 24, 2010, 10:44 PM
The WASR 10/63 I bought last year has a chromed bore and threaded muzzle.

Roastbeef
October 24, 2010, 11:00 PM
Saigas are the best AK variants in the world. They are actually better than AK's. Their accuracy is underrated and the great thing about them is the different calibers that they offer. .308 and .223 giving them better ammunition that is more accurate than 7.62x39. And that is without mentioning what they offer in shotgun formats.

Ricker
October 24, 2010, 11:03 PM
Have you guys ever heard of Koraynovich Arms? I haven't, but I found this:

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct919.aspx

It looks nice, but I've never heard of the manufacturer. It's a decent price too, I guess.

migkillertwo
October 24, 2010, 11:14 PM
I know the draco pistol is really cheap, but wouldn't the work+ATF paperwork and tax be well over 500$?

nathan
October 24, 2010, 11:32 PM
A WASR is hard to beat . Kills as good as the pricey ones.

Girodin
October 24, 2010, 11:32 PM
I know the draco pistol is really cheap, but wouldn't the work+ATF paperwork and tax be well over 500$?

The final price depends greatly on the stock you want to run. For the stock one can spend anywhere from fairly cheap to more than the price of the gun. It will be over $500 though since the gun is approx 340 and the tax stamp is $200. One could keep it to $600 easily. As far as SBS weapons go it is priced pretty well and I would rather have it than most of the AKs I see selling for $600+.

nalioth
October 25, 2010, 03:38 AM
I know the draco pistol is really cheap, but wouldn't the work+ATF paperwork and tax be well over 500$? The tax stamp is going to be $200 no matter what. Add that to the $350 price of the Draco, and you're at $500+ from the get-go.

Any work that needs doing can be done by the owner, if they've got any sort of sense (folks who've converted a Saiga are fully qualified).

Snakum
October 25, 2010, 07:17 AM
I know the WASR-10s are cheap, but I've heard some bad things about them. Arsenals are really nice, and that's what I really want, but they're a bit picey, some of them. I don't see the point in spending $1000 + for an AK. What would be the best AK for the money?

Well, you could spend $450 on a WASR 10/63 and have a weapon that shoots 2" - 4" groups with good Russian HP ammo (till the barrel gets hot) and goes BANG! every time you pull the trigger, no matter how rusty and mucked up it is. And you can work on it with a screwdriver and a hammer.

Or you could spend $799 on an Arsenal and have a weapon that shoots 2" - 4" groups with good Russian HP ammo (till the barrel gets hot) and goes BANG! every time you pull the trigger, no matter how rusty and mucked up it is. And you can work on it with a screwdriver and a hammer.

It's an AK. It is never going to have the accuracy of an AR, I don't care who you buy it from nor how much you spend. It is what it is. Hit the Search because this one was beaten to death here on THR years before most of us had even heard of THR.

jon_in_wv
October 29, 2010, 08:00 AM
They're also priced well. Downside is you'll likely have to convert it to original military configuration yourself.

Generally Atlantic has "partial" conversions like these on their website that hardly cost more than doing it yourself. Saigas used to be a lot cheaper and you could buy one and convert it for $400 bucks. Now that they have gone up in price it makes more sense to me to buy one of these.

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct894.aspx

The Karoynavish looks like an even better deal if it uses the Saiga as a base. The guy from Atlantic arms posts on this forum. Look him up and ask him. I bought my Saiga conversion from him and he is a great guy to deal with.

Gord
October 29, 2010, 08:13 AM
Now that they have gone up in price it makes more sense to me to buy one of these.

Um, they're still the same $300-325 they were when I bought and converted mine a year ago. It clocked in at around $450 all told - which is a damned far cry from your "hardly costs more" $590 gun...

nalioth
October 29, 2010, 08:20 AM
Now that they have gone up in price it makes more sense to me to buy one of these.
Um, they're still the same $300-325 they were when I bought and converted mine a year ago. It clocked in at around $450 all told - which is a damned far cry from your "hardly costs more" $590 gun... . . and not only that, but you know how your gun was put together.

GunTech
October 29, 2010, 09:44 AM
Who makes the forend on the Red Jacket shown?

Found: SGM tactical

tju1973
October 29, 2010, 10:02 AM
IMHO at sub $400 the WASR is a great value-- as long as you get to inspect it first. I bought one right before the "panic" for $400 even-- the guy let me shoot it first (FTF local sale)-- it was pie plate accurate at 100 yards from a sitting pos, so I was ok with it...I would still have it except I was offered $850 back in febuary, so I took it and ran...Now that the price is back down to sub $400s, I may look at picking another one back up..here is a pict of mine that I had..wood was rough, but some fine grit sandpaper, steel wool, hand rubbed BLO and Johnson paste wax made this one a good looking shooter...

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/tju1973/DSC00002.jpg

jon_in_wv
October 29, 2010, 10:08 AM
Um, they're still the same $300-325 they were when I bought and converted mine a year ago. It clocked in at around $450 all told - which is a damned far cry from your "hardly costs more" $590 gun...
__________________

Um, a year ago is AFTER they went up in price. They were in the low $200 dollar range. And good for you if you did it for that price. I think people can do the shopping and add the parts and supplies to see if its worth it for themselves. Your snide attitude isn't a replacement for the facts.

rklessdriver
October 29, 2010, 10:35 AM
WASR's - When they were $279.00-$299.00 were the best deal going - Even with the canted sight bases. Rought machine work, crappy wood but they still go bang every time. These days with prices hovering near $350.00-$400.00 I don't think they are the deal they once were... However the price is comming back down.

SAIGA - When I decided to get a new AK pattern rifle last year - This is the route I took. I did a bare bones conversion with the Tapco G2 FC and plastic pistol grip/buttstock... Turned out good and I have a tad over $400.00 in it.
Will

Jbabbler
October 29, 2010, 11:23 AM
When I was looking for an AK a few months ago I researched them until I was seeing them in my sleep. I went to about a dozen gun store in my area and looked at every conceivable iteration of the AK47 that I could find. I looked at WASR-10, Saiga, MAK-90, AMD-65 and even the non-AK but still freaking awesome VZ-58.

Unfortunately every WASR I looked at looked like it was assembled by complete morons. The parts appeared to be thrown together and the magwell surgeries that the WASR rifles have to go through at Century to make them compatible with double-stack standard AK mags varied greatly from rifle to rifle. About half of the WASRs I picked up had sloppy fitting magazines for this reason. The WASR rifles do not have the dimples on the side of the receiver and there is a lot of speculation as to the purpose of those dimples. Some claim that these help to hold the magazine in place and prevent wobble while others say that they are only cosmetic. I do not know the answer to this but I am fairly certain that they perform some function or Ivan would have never added them since "cosmetic" additions do not seem to be a common addition from the Reds.

The Saigas were very nicely built but in their stock configuration they are more like an SKS in that they have limited magazine capacity and no pistol grip. While this can be changed I didn't want to start grinding, drilling and changing it right after I bought it.

The only MAK-90s I could find were imported pre AWB and were in pretty rough shape. I liked one but it had the thumbhole stock and slanted receiver so a standard AK buttstock wouldn't fit it quite right.

I really liked the AMD-65s but only one local shop had them and they were priced about $150 too high (according to interwebs pricing).

My favorite rifle of all was the VZ58 and went to go look at them at peachstateguns in Covington. The gun was awesome and I liked the feel of the gun. Parts and magazines do not interchange with AKs though and AK parts are plentiful around here. While I was there he showed me an AK-47 made by I.O. Inc. The gun was brand new and built in North Carolina on US made receivers with Mossberg barrels and a mixture of Galil and RPK style polymer furniture. The rifle had the Tapco Slanted Muzzle Brake and Tapco G2 trigger group. I also like that i the receiver comes equipped with a side-rail scope mount assembly It has a Lifetime Warranty and was built very solidly. It was priced at $429 which was only a ferw more $$ than the rather shoddy looking WASRs they had so I bought it.

Over the last 4 months I have shot over 1500 rounds of Wolf hp through the gun without a single failure of any kind. I've read a lot of good and bad about the IO built AKs but all I can say is that mine has been perfect for me and I will be buying one of their Bullpup AK's in the very near future. I would not spend my own money on a gun that I didn't trust implicitly.

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc81/jbabbler/milsurplus/AK-47c_2.jpg

jon_in_wv
October 29, 2010, 12:29 PM
A Saiga conversion is they best deal going. I'm not saying it can't be done with a good deal on the base Saiga especially a used one. BUT if you factor in a new Saiga, parts, AND any tools, hardware, etc... you may need if you don't have them then the difference is small enough that if I factor my free time I see the pre-converted KVARS and such as a good alternative especially if the company that converts it provides a warranty over thier work. Do it yourself and you will void any warranty on you Saiga and you take your work in your own hands. Its not wrong to convert your own, or to buy a pre-converted model. I'm not snobby enough to say that one is SOOO much better than the other for anyone but me.

BTW, if you are going to buy a used Saiga for a base you can certainly buy a used, converted Saiga for the same price as converting it yourself. If still doesn't add up to me to do the work unless you really want to.

Girodin
October 29, 2010, 03:33 PM
Do it yourself and you will void any warranty on you Saiga and you take your work in your own hands. Its not wrong to convert your own, or to buy a pre-converted model. I'm not snobby enough to say that one is SOOO much better than the other for anyone but me.

A warranty on a saiga rifle is a bit superfluous IMHO. Also, if the rifle functions before you do the conversion you would probably have to try to do something to it that would make it stop functioning. If you are worried about warranty then give the gun good one over and test for function. If something doesn't look seriously out of wack then remember its an AK.

As to tools you don't have. Well there are very very few tools actually REQUIRED. I did one with a file, a screw driver, a hacksaw, and drill for the bullet guide an some of the rivets. A dremel does make things much quicker and easier. I think it is a bit disingenuous to suggest that the price of tools that are generally useful and nice to own ought to factor in the same way as that money just spent on a different gun. In the end you have gun plus tools as opposed to just gun. So even if you cannot borrow the tools well you will then have some basic tools which is nice. Also if you are like me saigas are addicting so you will get more than one use out of them anyhow.

As to the time spent doing it, I personally think there is a lot of value in the process of doing the conversion, particularly for those that might think it is daunting. In the end one will have a better understanding of their weapon and how it ticks. If you are not normally the type of person that does projects there is a sense of accomplishment, if you are then you'll likely enjoy doing it. For me my first saiga conversion was the jumping off point for giving me confidence to do more and more work on my guns.

If still doesn't add up to me to do the work unless you really want to.

Well you will probably do it right. No guns with glued in bullet guides or some of the other silliness that the companies selling mass conversion guns have done. It is in all honesty a pretty small amount of work and a pretty minimal time investment. It seems to me that those who have never converted one have a habit of over stating the time difficult and risk to the gun involved.

Sure there are other viable options but in the average case I think a home converted saiga is dollar for dollar the best value.

The biggest draw back to the saiga conversion is once you do one you want to do more, be it a 12 guage, or 308, or just doing one that is a bit more elaborate. That's the boat I'm in now.

Gord
October 29, 2010, 11:33 PM
BUT if you factor in a new Saiga, parts, AND any tools, hardware, etc... you may need

Saiga: $325
Parts: $150?
Tools/hardware: Either you have them already, or you know someone who does. If you're an absolute pariah alone in the world, you basically need to buy a drill and/or a Dremel. Gasp, the horror. You'll never be able to find another use for those outside of this project. Say $60.
Time: Maybe two hours of actual work. Maybe. Afterwards, you'll realize you could have done it in half the time if you had realized how ridiculously simple it was and hadn't been so worried about mucking something up.

So you're now at a high-end price of $535, if you're really enough of a Doris to hold a grudge against buying general-purpose power tools. That's still at least sixty bucks less than a preconverted gun - take the money you've saved and buy yourself a half-dozen mags, crack open a beer and admire your new drill and/or Dremel.

Is that a clear enough breakdown?

The prebuilts are a ripoff.

jon_in_wv
October 30, 2010, 12:41 PM
A warranty on a saiga rifle is a bit superfluous IMHO

Probably very true

Wispa
October 30, 2010, 01:33 PM
Saiga: $325
Parts: $150?
Tools/hardware: Either you have them already, or you know someone who does. If you're an absolute pariah alone in the world, you basically need to buy a drill and/or a Dremel. Gasp, the horror. You'll never be able to find another use for those outside of this project. Say $60.
Time: Maybe two hours of actual work. Maybe. Afterwards, you'll realize you could have done it in half the time if you had realized how ridiculously simple it was and hadn't been so worried about mucking something up.

Is that a clear enough breakdown?

The prebuilts are a ripoff.

I agree completely. It's really easy to do. If you're concerned about messing up just go slow. Buy good conversion parts the first time. It's better than having to buy more stuff in the future. Tactical Ninja is correct about the time it takes too. I think it was about two hours for me but I was going slow to make sure I didn't screw anything up. The truth is it would be really hard to do so. You'd have to basically try and mess it up to do anything wrong. I think it would take less time now that I've done it once.

Watch this tutorial and you'll see that it's really not hard at all.

http://vimeo.com/2787027

Here's mine after finishing. I left the stock forearm grip on but I may change that in the future. I'm definitely changing the pistol grip soon. :)

jon_in_wv
October 30, 2010, 04:15 PM
I love just how "High Road" some of you guys are.

Gord
October 30, 2010, 06:01 PM
Wispa, I left the stock forend on mine too - I actually quite like it. Differentiates it from any other AK variant and provides more grip area, what's not to like?

frankiestoys
October 30, 2010, 06:25 PM
I bought a Bugarian 74 a few months back from Centerfire (CAI) price delivered was $389
with four mags and a bayonet. I installed a mount/rail and a 4x32 red/green dot and a L.E.D light on the side
total investment $490 ive ran about 400 rds through it so far without a single issue. It shoots 3 1/2 groups at 100 yards thats the best i can get out of it.
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/frankiestoys68/HPIM5306.jpg

PH/CIB
October 31, 2010, 12:44 AM
Vepr, no longer made, but one of the best and accurate AK'S, RPK machine gun stamped receiver, heavy barrel, rear sight adjustable for windage and elevation. $800 to $1000 on Gunbroker, in 762x39,556, and 308.

Gelgoog
October 31, 2010, 01:03 AM
frankie whats with the shell holder on an AK? I am having a hard time understanding why you would ever need one of those on a magazine fed weapon.

Ignition Override
October 31, 2010, 01:04 AM
Ricker:
Before you make your final decision-if not already-have you watched one of the best gun videos by "hickok45" on Youtube? He seems to never use a scope. "hickok45's channel" has also given me a new perspective. That "channel" might brighten your night or day.

I just watched him (third time) in a regular stance with his WASR, and hit a 15" metal plate ("ting") from 230 yards, at least four times in a row.
Some people use accurate rifles and have very good skills, yet others, like this gentleman, appear to have excellent skills and apply them to any gun they own.
My choice, if it were only possible....would be to have his skills, instead of ever feeling the impulse to spend money on a fairly costly rifle.

DoctorOfLight
October 31, 2010, 01:27 AM
I have been shooting a friends Romanian WASR 10/63, and have had some jams with Wolf ammo during rapid fire. I have inspected it, and think that some slight grinding/polishing in one certain spot will take care of the problem.

It is what it is. I can hit a paper plate at 100yrds all day long, and will be adding one soon to my arsenal. For the price, it can't be beat. Some have even said that shooting a few hundred more rounds through it to "break it in" will make it run better. Sounds like fun to me. :)

jon_in_wv
October 31, 2010, 02:35 PM
I have shot 2 inch 5 shot groups with my converted Saiga. Its not exactly the norm though. Generally it shoots 4 shots into 2 inches with one shot opening the group up to 3-4 inches. My range has steel plates you can shoot at from 100-1000 yards. At 200 yards I can bang the largest plate, about 18x18 inches, with boring regularity. I consider my AK to be more than accurate enough for defense at anything within 200y. Outside of that I would rather have my Savage FCP-K. I consider the Saiga based AKs the best bang for your buck but many of the Romanian. Yugo, and Hungarian AKs are very good. My next one will no doubt be a Hungarian.

okespe04
October 31, 2010, 02:38 PM
Wasr-10

Girodin
October 31, 2010, 02:52 PM
I have shot 2 inch 5 shot groups with my converted Saiga. Its not exactly the norm though. Generally it shoots 4 shots into 2 inches with one shot opening the group up to 3-4 inches.

Well, I think you have a few options to improve the accuracy you are reporting. These are the most common "tricks" I see online for having a "more accurate" rifle:

A) just cherry pick the best group it has ever fired and report that any time you talk about the weapons accuracy.

B) Stop shooting five round groups that are much more meaningful and just shoot three or at best four round groups. Don't forget you can repeat step A after you've done this.

C) Remember to do your internet accuracy report conversion which should cut 1/2"-1" off whatever you really shot. This step can be used with both of the above for maximum results.

I imagine if you do the above you will surely have a MOA or better rifle.:D

jon_in_wv
October 31, 2010, 06:46 PM
Hmmm. Choices, choices, choices.

Mayo
November 1, 2010, 11:20 AM
Here's your answer:


http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?107080-AK-47-74-rifles-from-around-the-world...

Fuego
November 1, 2010, 12:33 PM
I say WASR. Ugly, crude, rough finish---but it works every time.

"For the money"--the WASR will put 30 rounds into the target as well as any other AKM.

And all AKM parts will fit the WASR. Not so for the Saiga or the Yugo.

WASR is the way to go for the money.

nalioth
November 1, 2010, 01:07 PM
I say WASR. Ugly, crude, rough finish---but it works every time.

"For the money"--the WASR will put 30 rounds into the target as well as any other AKM.

And all AKM parts will fit the WASR. Not so for the Saiga or the Yugo.

WASR is the way to go for the money.Again, I say "With the Kalashnikov, if you buy for cosmetics, you are wasting your money."
The only thing that won't fit a Saiga is the . . . .

. . . nothing.

Please list the AK parts that won't fit the Saiga, and I'll show you they can.

The Saiga is a brand new gun, made out of brand new milspec parts ('cept for the Klinton Krap).
The WASR is made out of some soldiers gun. How many rounds did he send downrange? Was it the company "full auto trainer?" With recycled parts, you just don't know.

CnRnut
November 1, 2010, 07:55 PM
Saiga rifle--- $335
K-var stock set----$100
Grip screw and nut-$ 10
G-2 FCG -$ 27
Lower HG retainer -$ 10
Bulgie gas block -$ 30
Bulgie frt.site base -$30
Bulgie comp $ 30
6 plugs for holes $ 1.50

Total = $573.50




SGL-21's go for @$699

DoctorOfLight
November 2, 2010, 12:13 PM
Ricker:
Before you make your final decision-if not already-have you watched one of the best gun videos by "hickok45" on Youtube? He seems to never use a scope. "hickok45's channel" has also given me a new perspective. That "channel" might brighten your night or day.

I just watched him (third time) in a regular stance with his WASR, and hit a 15" metal plate ("ting") from 230 yards, at least four times in a row.
Some people use accurate rifles and have very good skills, yet others, like this gentleman, appear to have excellent skills and apply them to any gun they own.
My choice, if it were only possible....would be to have his skills, instead of ever feeling the impulse to spend money on a fairly costly rifle.
I love that guys videos! He's my favoirite youtuber. Lots and lots of different guns shooting lots and lots of lead.

FMJMIKE
November 2, 2010, 10:10 PM
I bought two Arsenal SGL-21s when they were on sale for $500. About the nicest AK I have ever owned. The recoil break actually works too.....:D The money spent converting a Saiga would be better spent on an Arsenal rifle. The resale value will be more.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/mbmphoto/AK103a.jpg

nalioth
November 2, 2010, 10:17 PM
I bought two Arsenal SGL-21s when they were on sale for $500. <snip> The money spent converting a Saiga would be better spent on an Arsenal rifle.
If Arsenals sold every day for $500, I would agree with you.
The resale value will be more.Most of us don't buy guns to turn around and resell them.

wideym
November 2, 2010, 10:46 PM
I've have a few AKs, CAI 74, STG-2000, Norinco NHM-91, home built "G" model, and most recently an Arsenal 107F that I picked up for $600 at a pawn shop.

I love the factory sidefolder on the Arsenal, plus it has an AK74 type front sight base.
If you look and wait long enough you will find the AK you want at the price you want.

DoctorOfLight
November 3, 2010, 01:16 AM
frankie whats with the shell holder on an AK? I am having a hard time understanding why you would ever need one of those on a magazine fed weapon. I'm not seeing any shell holders on any of the pictures. Am I missing something?

ulfrik
November 3, 2010, 05:09 AM
on the wasr-10, trigger bounce can be gotten rid of by installing a g2 trigger,i think?

however i heard the magazine wobble is so bad that it rattles and makes a lot of noise.

what company makes a semi auto akm that is as good as the origanal, for under 1,000$ ?

nalioth
November 3, 2010, 05:20 AM
however i heard the magazine wobble is so bad that it rattles and makes a lot of noise.
All Kalashnikovs have "mag wobble". It's the way they're made (they also all rattle [even without a magazine]).

If you're not into "just works" and have to have a "high speed - low drag" rifle that makes no noise and requires constant cleaning because it's tolerances are so precise - the Kalashnikov is not for you.

ulfrik
November 3, 2010, 05:29 AM
so would the g2 trigger get rid of any trigger bounce and or creep?

nalioth
November 3, 2010, 06:16 AM
so would the g2 trigger get rid of any trigger bounce and or creep? Century has been using Tapco G2 FCGs in it's WASRs for the past 3-odd years.

You need to stop listening to the ancient myths and look into reality.

If you happen to have an older WASR, a Tapco G2 or Texas AK Triggers FCG will be quite an improvement (the TAKT more of one).

ulfrik
November 3, 2010, 06:36 AM
"for the past 3-odd years". cool.

how much does a Century wasr cost$ these days? 400$ or 500$????

sturmgewehr
November 3, 2010, 01:28 PM
what company makes a semi auto akm that is as good as the origanal, for under $1000?
I would say Arsenal builds the most authentic AKs on the market using as many Russian (Saiga) parts as they can. Fit and finish is top notch and most can be had for less than $1k.

skipbo32
November 3, 2010, 04:12 PM
ditto on sturmgewehr:

i love my arsenal and i think they are worth the extra pennies considering you are not buying a gun built from crap. here is mine sgl20 after fitting it with some wood. very nice AK and accurate too!


http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/pix428700859.jpg


http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC03921.jpg

sturmgewehr
November 3, 2010, 04:52 PM
Here's some shots of my Arsenal SGL-31 AK-74 built on a Russian Saiga receiver.

http://www.intempusphotography.com/photos/1076361427_dF6SZ-L.jpg

http://www.intempusphotography.com/photos/1076354138_JUj4F-L.jpg

skipbo32
November 3, 2010, 05:00 PM
nice,

how do you like that 5.45 and that eotech setup? do you prefer the 5.45 over the 7.62?

stchman
November 3, 2010, 05:07 PM
I have a 1963 WASR-10 made to be 922r compliant in 2009 and it has been 100% for me. It always shoots and when I concentrate from a bench I can get 2" groups at 50 yards.

I spent about $400 after the transfer. I bought some extra Tapco mags and never looked back.

nalioth
November 3, 2010, 05:12 PM
I have a 1963 WASR-10 made to be 922r compliant in 2009 and it has been 100% for me. It always shoots and when I concentrate from a bench I can get 2" groups at 50 yards.You have a 2009 WASR made using parts from a 1963 Romanian military AKM.

Today's WASRs are nothing more than recycled Romanian AKs.

sturmgewehr
November 3, 2010, 05:21 PM
I do prefer the 5.45 over the 7.62. I believe the military surplus ammo I shoot is far more lethal than just about any other military round out there. The bullet has a hollow cavity at the nose with a mixture of mild steel and a lead alloy at the base. It's stable in flight, but when it hits flesh and the nose collapses the center of gravity rapidly shifts to the rear of the bullet causing it to immediately tumble.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Forums/guns/AK/545-CrossSection.jpg
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Forums/guns/AK/AS54501.jpg

You can read more about it here: http://www.cruffler.com/Features/OCT-01/trivia-October01.html

Anyway, that coupled with the extremely mild recoil impulse... it's tough to beat. It has much less recoil than the 7.62x39 (and even less than an AR15 in .223/5.56), holds a standard 30 rounds, fires an absolutely devastating cartridge, it's cheaper to shoot than anything else out there right now... what's not to prefer? :D

sturmgewehr
November 3, 2010, 05:25 PM
Oh, I forgot to comment about your question regarding the EOTech.

I like the EOTech, but I'm probably going to move to an Aimpoint CompM2 I have sitting around. I ordered a low mount 30mm ring for it today and will give it a shot. It has the added benefit of allowing me to co-witness the iron sights through the scope, something I can't do with the EOTech.

But I think the EOTech seems right at home on the Ultimak base. I think it looks like it belong there. :)

Zombiphobia
November 3, 2010, 06:05 PM
The Saiga, also is Russian, last time I checked.

I've heard good things about the Yugo's, for just a bit more than WASR's.

I own a WASR-10, made just post-clinton. Bayonet lug is removed, no threading, but it accepts High-capacity mags and it's completely reliable and shoots well. Chrome lined barrel.
Only problem I have with it is the roughness of the bolt carrier, it looks like crap.
Using Wolf FMJ, I can hit a gallon jug at 100 meters almost every time.

skipbo32
November 3, 2010, 06:21 PM
sturm....nice. is the ammo corrosive? on my ak, im running a bushnell 3 moa dot. its lightweight and medium quality.

sturmgewehr
November 3, 2010, 06:44 PM
Skipbo32,

The Russian milsurp is corrosive, so you have to clean the rifle after shooting it. But that's not a major issue for me given the low cost. Non-corrosive ammo can be had at a bit higher price.

How do you like the Bushnell? I used to have one on my M16 years ago but I destroyed it... it didn't like tons of FA fire. :)

skipbo32
November 3, 2010, 07:53 PM
well i have an aimpoint comp ml3 on my M14 clone and love it! the bushnell tr25 red dot is a cheap version of the aimpoint mini (only cost me $80 at cabellas) and it is not the quality of aimpoint but it serves my AK just fine.....it is very quality for the price you pay however. i recomend the bushnell tr25 for anyone wanting a high value alternative optic. if you already have $400 sitting around then pull the trigger on the aimpoint comp......you will not be disappointed. i have never tried the eotech, but i can tell you, as someone who hikes in snow and raine i like how you can close up the aimpoint w/ lens covers. i also like how the dial is more tactile. in a nutshell: the eotech has a great reticle and large field of view but the aimpoint is more rugged.

how mush are you paying a rd w/ that 5.45? im getting my 7.62 for about .20 cents a rd.

ulfrik
November 4, 2010, 02:17 AM
Originally Posted by nalioth. All Kalashnikovs have "mag wobble". It's the way they're made (they also all rattle [even without a magazine]).

on youtube this guys wasr seemed like it had some kind of super mag wobble, wasr are modified from single stack mags to double stack mags, maby it gives them a little more mag wobble than the average ak ?

nalioth
November 4, 2010, 05:12 AM
on youtube this guys wasr seemed like it had some kind of super mag wobble, wasr are modified from single stack mags to double stack mags, maby it gives them a little more mag wobble than the average ak ? You're basing your observations on one gun you saw on youtube?

Ooooookay.

WASRs are modified from single-stack configuration. Depending on the day of the week (if the monkey is still drunk from the weekend or looking forward to beer-o-clock on Friday) or the tools used, they can have wildly different magazine wells.
It is also dependent on the year the WASR was imported and made 922r compliant (evidently the drunk monkeys were a lot drunker years and years ago and had to use dull spoons).

Here is the bottom line: Does the magazine "wobble" so far one way or other that it causes the rifle to malfunction?

If so, you have "mag wobble" worth complaining about. Anything else is just a Kalashnikov (they're not AR15s and made with tight tolerances)

ulfrik
November 4, 2010, 07:52 AM
i saw in the shotgun news saiga rifles for about 180$ , so to make a profit an ffl could sell them for about 280$

so i wonder how much a wasr really cost? for that matter i wonder how much an ar15 really cost? probably 650$ thats what the army pays for it.lol

nalioth
November 4, 2010, 09:15 AM
so i wonder how much a wasr really cost?Considering that originally the WASR was made of parts unfit to use on military rifles (which are the primary purpose of a Kalashnikov assembly facility), and today they're being made from old military rifles, their actual cost is near nothing. Even when you factor in shipping, we're still paying "market value" (IOW, what the gun buyers will pay), and not actual importer's cost + markup.

Girodin
November 4, 2010, 02:09 PM
i saw in the shotgun news saiga rifles for about 180$ , so to make a profit an ffl could sell them for about 280$

How long ago was that? I in fact bought a couple saigas for less than $280. They were $270 after paying shipping and transfer fees. My dealer friend claims his prices on them have gone up (he is a pretty straight shooter with me) and you no longer see them anywhere for those prices more like $320. If you say it very recently it could be that prices have gone back down as seems to be happening with other guns right now too.

frankge
November 4, 2010, 02:18 PM
there are much nicer AK's than the WASR 10/63 I have but mine functions 100% and has not had issues with now thousands of rounds through it. I shoot it in USPSA and IPDA matches for fun alot. I refinished the wood so its much nicer looking. Mine came with the G2 trigger group. I think alot of the quality problems of the past are somewhat gone now. The monkeys at Century are better trained, they learned they were getting problems, the G2 trigger group is standard. I think the 10/63 uses better parts from what I'm told.

Anyway, its cheap, it function 100%. You'll get a higher qulaity (fit finish) AK but it's still an AK. Mine is quite accurate considering the platform especially with reloaded ammo.

mp5a3
November 4, 2010, 03:16 PM
I've heard WASR's cost Century something like $15, you never know though.

Makes you wonder what an importer pays for the Mosin-Nagant if they can still make money at $69.

stchman
November 4, 2010, 03:26 PM
To nalioth:

Yes, thanks for the clarification.

From what I have read they do the following on a Romanian AKM to make it a WASR.

Replace barrel
Replace trigger group
Increase mag well size to accommodate double stack mags
Replace the bolt and piston assembly
Put new furniture on them

From also what I have read, the only parts that remain are the receiver and dust cover.

GunTech
November 4, 2010, 03:30 PM
Skipbo32, I am paying $156 for a 1080 round can of 5.45x39 locally for milsurp. I've seen it as low as $115 per can, but add $35 shipping and it's not much cheaper and no instant gratification. The more you buy the cheaper it gets. I was offered a really cheap price if I would be 100 cases (two cans each). ;)

nalioth
November 4, 2010, 04:02 PM
From what I have read they do the following on a Romanian AKM to make it a WASR.

Replace barrel
Replace trigger group
Increase mag well size to accommodate double stack mags
Replace the bolt and piston assembly
Put new furniture on them

From also what I have read, the only parts that remain are the receiver and dust cover. First of all, who are "they"?

Second of all, you've got procedures listed that are done on both sides of the ocean.

The Romanians take a surplussed Romy military AKM and demil it. All the parts go into a bin.
The bin goes down the line and all the parts except for the "go fast" ones are replaced in to a new US-legal receiver. This receiver has a slim mag well for proprietary slimline 10 round mags. The rifle goes in a shipping crate along with several others and the crate is loaded into a shipping container.

Once the shipping container reaches the USA, Century has it's minions hog out the proprietary mag wells so that standard milsurp mags fit, and installs the necessary 922r parts before selling the rifle on to us.


I'm not sure what you're reading, but they sound very confused.

ulfrik
November 5, 2010, 05:13 AM
any one like the robarm xcr?
its like a ak47 on the inside and a ar15 on the outside, plus quick changeable barrel and calibur. last i checked it was about 1,500$

why is it not more popular?

HorseSoldier
November 5, 2010, 05:19 AM
I think the issue with the XCR's popularity is that you simply don't see that many of them. I can't think of any gun store I've been in that stocks them, and you only see it occasionally at gun shows.

GunTech
November 5, 2010, 10:52 AM
The FNC was another rifle that is AK inside, and of course the SIG556. FN seems to have given up on the FNC and is focused on the SCAR. The SIG has its own following and is getting mixed reviews.

I suspect part of the problem with the XCR is that Robinson is a small company. How much advertising have you seen? Will the company be around in ten years, and compared to an AK, the XCR is not cheap.

In the case of military rifles, success seems to come from a few factors that the XCR lacks: Military adoption, wide distribution, availability of parts and accessories and a major manufacturer - or multiple smaller ones.

The oddball rifles will have their fanatical supporters, but compared to rifles like the AR-15, M14, AK and FAL they are a puny part of the market. It's no different than any other product.

Grey Morel
November 5, 2010, 03:15 PM
Lancaster, or an used Vector.

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