Pistol holds 31 rounds of 22 magnum. Good defense weapon? Yes or No.


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ms6852
October 25, 2010, 04:52 PM
If your pistol held 30 rounds in the magazine and 1 in the chamber weighs less than 20 ounces, and it comes with another 30 round magazine, would you reconsider your stand on carrying a rimfire for self defense if it were a 22 magnum? Kel Tec has the new PMR 30 in 22 magnum for under $450. You can easily now cary over 60 rounds for self defense. What is your stand on this new pistol?

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pikid89
October 25, 2010, 04:55 PM
30 rounds is nothing to sneeze at...if you are aware and willing to accept the risk of relying on the (somewhat) inherent unreliability of a rimfire cartridge
i could see it being a little more useful as a trail gun
as a side note, this will be a very very LOUD gun...six shots from my single six WMR is enough to induce temporary deafness for me

GEM
October 25, 2010, 04:56 PM
Does the gun run? It is based on the old Grendel,IIRC - which had a bad rap. The 22 mag round is long and not idle for semis - or so I've been told.

Would it work for self-defense - probably as most guns work for self-defense most of the time!

fourdollarbill
October 25, 2010, 05:02 PM
If I'm going to use a gun in defense the bad guy is going to have to be very close to me so I have always considered a 22lr for that reason. I don't know enough about 22 and SD but I would certainly consider it. I have been eyeballing my kids Walther P22 because of the size and weight I'm just not sure I could place a shot that well.

Sam1911
October 25, 2010, 05:03 PM
"Most" shootings are over in 2-3 shots. I'd like my 2-3 shots to be rounds as powerful as I can easily and quickly place on target. For me that's usually a .45 ACP.

I've trained to put those 2-3 .45s into the center of a target at rates of fire better than 5 shots per second. I doubt the lesser recoil of a .22 mag is going to let me go a whole lot faster than that.

As the statistics seem to indicate that I'm vanishingly unlikely to need more than half of a 1911 magazine to deal with my problems, and I generally carry 3 total, the extra 65 rounds of .22 Magnum I could have on hand seem superfluous.

ms6852
October 25, 2010, 05:10 PM
The gun does pretty well there is a write up on ammo times.

http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/pistols/pmr-30/

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/23/kel-tec-pmr-30-pistol/

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/06/30/kel-tec-pmr-30-22-magnum-video-and-review/

http://www.bugoutsurvival.com/2010/02/kel-tec-pmr-30-i-kinda-want-one.html

kimbernut
October 25, 2010, 05:12 PM
As long as you continue center mass hits and not go to spray and pray. Never forget you alone are responsible for where each of those 61 bullets impact. IMHO less quantity is better using a round with more of a reputation for putting down an assailant.

Joe Demko
October 25, 2010, 05:16 PM
Bill Jordan thought the .22 magnum was nothing to sneeze at, for whatever that is worth. Assuming the gun runs well, which my personal experience with several Keltecs indicates is not a given, I can see it having great usefulness as a home defense gun for those who cannot handle a harder recoiling piece.

ms6852
October 25, 2010, 05:16 PM
Sam I agree with you. I take my training a little further and train religiously at only 25 and 50 yds. At those distances who ever is on the other hand will get hit. It is now second nature for me to hit a 3" bullseye with my 1911.

I still like the concept for my wife who carries a 38 but does not shoot because of recoil. This way every one will be ducking bullets for a verry verry long time.

As a trail gun I think it has its uses.

Sam1911
October 25, 2010, 05:30 PM
Sam I agree with you. I take my training a little further and train religiously at only 25 and 50 yds.
Not to be contrary, but that sounds like taking your training back a notch.
Are you able to practice shooting from retention at 25 and 50 yds? Can you engage multiple assailants on different lines of force at those ranges? Square range plinking at longer ranges may be a lot of fun, but it doesn't look much like the kind of skills you'll need to defend yourself with a gun.

I still like the concept for my wife who carries a 38 but does not shoot because of recoil. This way every one will be ducking bullets for a verry verry long time.Everyone indeed. Yikes. 31 potential horrible mistakes before reloading. :uhoh:

Considering how lightly loaded you can make a .38 Spc. cartridge, (lots) more practice seems like a far better idea than getting her a rimfire and telling her it's a magic bullet hose.

As a trail gun I think it has its uses. Oh absolutely. You could do a lot of small game hunting with it or just have a ball plinking cans. Still, a big, bulky rimfire plinker is not what I'd choose for a defensive sidearm.

ms6852
October 25, 2010, 05:57 PM
You are correct when stating that it is taking it back a notch, but not in my case. The last 8 years of my 21 year army career took me to many places that involved a lot more CQB than I cared for. Somalia, Bosnia, Croatia, and Iraq. It has left me jumpy and for my own mental reasons I practice this distances. I still do multipe targets, prone, back, weak hand training etc. I just feel comfortable doing it this way for me. I figure I can hit just as easily close up as far away. I do not advocate this for anyone but by the grace of God I survived some nasty scrapes.

rcmodel
October 25, 2010, 06:03 PM
You can easily now cary over 60 rounds for self defense.Do you plan to miss a lot??

Seriously, if you ever shot 60 rounds in a SD gunfight, you would probably be charged with murder if you pumped that many shots into a BG.

Or reckless endangerment if all those bullets flying around hit something besides the BG.

rc

Travis McGee
October 25, 2010, 06:03 PM
Only if the pistol will fire 200+ rounds without a hiccup.

ms6852
October 25, 2010, 06:28 PM
Do you plan to miss a lot??

Seriously, if you ever shot 60 rounds in a SD gunfight, you would probably be charged with murder if you pumped that many shots into a BG.

Or reckless endangerment if all those bullets flying around hit something besides the BG.

rc
No. No one ever plans to miss in a self defense situation and I doubt many have ever had to shoot their way out for their life. Its easy to fast and accurate when shooting at targets but not when you are scared half to death. Any way sir my question was very simple if you now could carry 60 rounds with you for self defense, would you reconsider your stand on rimfire as a self defense round in a 22 magnum? It is obvious that many people feel more comfortable carrying more rounds than a situation may call for, it is their comfort zone. I carry a 1911 with a 7 round mag and one extra magazine.

M2 Carbine
October 25, 2010, 06:35 PM
My Wife was a good shot, especially with the Ruger MK I 22LR. For some years she kept the MK I in the night stand.
Then it seemed that there were a few too many cases of someone using a 22 for defense and still being shot and/or killed.
The final straw was when I read in the Rifleman about a old lady shooting a BG 6 times with her 22. She killed the BG but he lived long enough to kill the lady before he died.
The next morning the 22 was replaced with a GI 45 (which my Wife could also shoot well).

would you reconsider your stand on rimfire as a self defense round in a 22 magnum?
I'll use a 22 for defense but only if I have to but given the choice I want a bigger caliber for defense.
I recently bought a 3.5 inch barrel S&W Model 51 (22 Mag). I've chronographed several loads and from a pistol barrel and there's not that much difference between the 22LR and 22 Mag.


Having a large magazine capacity in a defense gun isn't a bad idea, so I use such as this 20 round Beretta PX4 (9mm) for a nightstand gun.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/PX4withStreamlight.jpg

SharpsDressedMan
October 25, 2010, 07:38 PM
Gee, a .22 Mag pistol has just a wee bit more energy than a .22LR from a rifle (depending on barrel length)...........

BHP FAN
October 25, 2010, 07:44 PM
I think this set up with 2 spare mags [90 rnds!] would make an ideal earth quake kit gun. Too bad you can't buy them in California.

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 25, 2010, 07:49 PM
Quoted from someone's sig on these forums awhile ago:
"Getting shot in the head from across the street with a .22LR will surely ruin your day"

Granted it kills but I would prefer a 9mm or .45 and when would someone need 31 rounds to stop someone?

Rembrandt
October 25, 2010, 07:52 PM
30 rounds better than 8?.....sounds like the pre-Vietnam M-16 debate-vs-M14. While good arguments can be made for both sides, one has to wonder if this isn't compensating for lack of marksmanship ability.

One could make a case that a 12 gauge handgun firing 00 buck would be the ultimate lead thrower.

Sam1911
October 25, 2010, 08:00 PM
I still do multipe targets, prone, back, weak hand training etc. I just feel comfortable doing it this way for me.That clarifies things quite a bit.

hardworker
October 25, 2010, 08:10 PM
As far as reliability, I've never had a 22 magnum misfire. Out of a pistol, the 22 wmr is about as hot as a 22lr out of a rifle. Nothing to sneeze at.

CaliCoastie
October 25, 2010, 08:34 PM
got a pmr 30, misloaded the first mag had a few failture to load, striped the mag the reloaded correctly. then about 180 rounds fine. only had one outing with it, i like it and if its on hand and you need it....... 30rds of 22mag.

Al Thompson
October 25, 2010, 08:52 PM
The reliability issue is a huge one. I'd rather have a .25 if the .22 Magnum isn't dead nuts reliable.

Caliper_RWVA
October 25, 2010, 09:00 PM
"Most" shootings are over in 2-3 shots. I'd like my 2-3 shots to be rounds as powerful as I can easily and quickly place on target.

+1.

If I really think I lived in a place where I'd need 31 rounds, I'd just carry my P95 with a spare mag.

Carter
October 25, 2010, 09:06 PM
I'm pretty sure dumping that many rounds in to a person would constitute excessive force in most places. All the DA, police, jury, etc would hear is, "The defendant shot the victim 30 times with a magnum handgun." Case over, you go to prison.

There is a point to where capacity vs cartridge size becomes silly.

jon86
October 25, 2010, 09:07 PM
Pistol holds 31 rounds of 22 magnum. Good defense weapon? Yes or No.


I wouldn't bet my life on it. Is it a good defense weapon? Maybe if it's fully automatic. My defense calibers start at 38 special/9mm. YMMV.

Hatterasguy
October 25, 2010, 09:09 PM
If you want something that's light with little felt recoil get an FN57. My friend has one and its pretty good, holds 20 rounds, weighs nothing, and is crazy accurate. I was printing nice group's at 30 yards the first time I held it and hitting cans at 70.

Judging by how hot the civilian lame 5.7 round is, if you get them loaded up to proper law enforcement spec...I imagine it would make one heck of a hole in someone.

Rimfire IMHO are not as reliable as center fire and in a defensive weapon that's everything.

ms6852
October 25, 2010, 09:32 PM
I'm pretty sure dumping that many rounds in to a person would constitute excessive force in most places. All the DA, police, jury, etc would hear is, "The defendant shot the victim 30 times with a magnum handgun." Case over, you go to prison.

There is a point to where capacity vs cartridge size becomes silly.
There was an incident a while back where some garage owner got burglarized, but I do not recall if the burglar was hit or not but the guy that shot at the burglar was asked by the police how many times he shot and he replied 7 times. When asked by the police why he shot 7 times he responded I ran out of bullets.

Carter
October 25, 2010, 10:17 PM
There was an incident a while back where some garage owner got burglarized, but I do not recall if the burglar was hit or not but the guy that shot at the burglar was asked by the police how many times he shot and he replied 7 times. When asked by the police why he shot 7 times he responded I ran out of bullets.

Haha, I like that. However, here in NC that'd get you arrested. Even the gun friendly cops are strict on the laws (from my experience). 7 misses would also be a very bad thing to deal with. I'm sure that'd bring about a charge on its own here.

hardworker
October 25, 2010, 10:32 PM
Again, 22 wmr is just as reliable as a centerfire. Stop associating it with 22lr in reliability.

ms6852
October 25, 2010, 11:24 PM
Again, 22 wmr is just as reliable as a centerfire. Stop associating it with 22lr in reliability.
It all boils down to individual preference. I know of this famous Texas Ranger by the name of JOAQUIN JACKSON who carried a 22 magnum as a back up. He is now retired and lived in Alpine where I grew up. Went to school with one of the Allee's who's grandfather at the time was the Captain for the Texas Rangers. And as far as comparing a 22 lr to a magnum you are correct. The comparison is not there. You got the magnum coming out of the barrel at over 1300 ft per second and delivering over 135 lbs of energy from a pistol. The 22lr won't deliver that much out of a rifle.

Dr.Rob
October 25, 2010, 11:36 PM
Poor man's 5.7. I think the Kel-Tec an interesting pistol but I'm not convinced it does any thing better than a 9mm all steel pistol.

As a plinker? Sure. As a 'fun gun' absolutely. As a defensive arm? I have many other choices.

jbkebert
October 25, 2010, 11:44 PM
I am still unsure of the old rimfire ammo is unreliable bit. The past 2or3 thousand rounds of .22lr I have fired I could count failures to fire on one hand and still have a couple fingers left. I have fired hundreds upon hundreds of rounds of .22 mag and .17hmr without a single problem.

Here's a thought don't buy crappy ammo and you won't have crappy results. Heck my P-22 has fired several thousand rounds with only two failures to feed and no failures to fire. CCI mini mags work cheap bulk ammo does not.


I will continue to carry my whimpy little .380 or even my puny little .22lr without a single worry that I am outgunned. These freaks of nature 400# linebackers with 1/2% body fat hell bent on killing you don't exist. Sorry to disappoint all of these rambo fantisies.

Back to the OP I want one. Wish it was not a Kel-tech but Browning doesn't make a buckmark in .22 mag or .17hmr.

orionengnr
October 26, 2010, 12:24 AM
These freaks of nature 400# linebackers with 1/2% body fat hell bent on killing you don't exist.
Do you understand the concept of a "straw man"? :rolleyes: Do your homework. There are cases 135 lb crackheads who take multiple rounds of .40 to bring down.
The 300-400 pounders are not exactly unheard of either, although they are more often in the 30%+ body fat category...

If you choose to carry a .22, that is your prerogative. Ignorant and ill-informed, IMHO, but it harms no-one.
To try and convince others that there is no reason to carry anything larger is flat out irresponsible.

jbkebert
October 26, 2010, 12:40 AM
Carry what you will I have no problem with a .45 I own a couple 10mm. Maybe it's just the dumb farm boy in me. I have seen more things dropped with a .22lr than anything else combined over and over. Is it the best defensive weapon of course not. To many people feed on fear and think they have to have a cannon. More often than not the average CCW holder does not practice that much. Or they practice with cheap Winchester white box bulk ammo. The the load up with the latest sure kill ammo that has never been fired from their gun because it's to expensive.

I fire 50-100 rounds a week through my carry gun certainly not as much as some but certainly more than others. I guess is comes from alot of times in the woods as a kid cutting firewood. I always had a .22 handgun on me. I could go from finishing a cut with a chain saw to drawing and shooting a rabbit without missing a beat.

Also perhaps our meth addicts aren't getting the same uber dope that some other cites get. Most of the tweakers I have ever seen or been around were so sick that a spit wad would put them down. Maybe some other places that meth and crack is fortified with vitamins and minerals and such.

Yet I forgot this is the interwebz. Where you need a Glock 620 chambered in .416 rigby and a 25 round mag loaded with DRT 400 grain solids to go buy milk and bread. Then a .220 swift or the ever popular .223 is more than ample for a 400 yard shot on a bull elk or rhino. I guess my .300 win mag should go to the store with me and my .22lr on my next big game hunt.

FlyinBryan
October 26, 2010, 12:46 AM
i carry a lightweight commander in 45acp every single day. its the only caliber ive ever carried since getting my chl.

i doubt i will ever carry anything else.

i could see a viable arguement for 30 rounds of 22mag, but it would be wasted on me.

Hoppes Love Potion
October 26, 2010, 12:46 AM
Defense against what? A pack of wolves? Yeah, then I want 30 rounds.

There are some conceivable circumstances where you might need to launch a barrage in order to get others to safety. Let's say there's a night time home invasion. You might want to spray the hallway or stairway to keep the bad guys at bay while your kids run to you from the other bedrooms.

Or if you are far away from help. Say a couple of bad guys are stalking a lone hiker. She pulls out her trusty 5-shot snubbie and backs them away. But they're able to harass her from a distance and sucker her into wasting all the ammo. It does downhill from there.

natman
October 26, 2010, 04:27 AM
Yes, a 22 mag from a pistol is roughly equal to a 22LR from a rifle and, yes, it's nothing to sneeze at.

I'd still rather have 10 rounds of 45.

BTW, a 22 mag out of a pistol is amazingly loud and gives a truly impressive flash, even in daylight.

Ryder
October 26, 2010, 06:45 AM
I have a lot of respect for the 22mag performance but most of my experience is from a rifle. I've owned 22mag pistols, too noisey for my liking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2KZMI-qNvY

PTK
October 26, 2010, 06:56 AM
I personally loved carrying things that were low recoil to allow me decently fast and accurate shots. Missing with a .45 is significantly less effective than hitting with even a .22 short, never mind a .22mag. :)

Pete D.
October 26, 2010, 07:16 AM
get an FN57.

Y'know.....I am a fan of the 5.7....have had one for years. The gun is amazingly accurate, very reliable and, with the right ammo, as powerful as a 9mm.
But.....the cost, especially compared to the KelTec, is quite high. IIRC, you could buy two PMR-30s for the price of a FiveSeven pistol and have money left for ammo.
Pete

DirtyHarry31
October 26, 2010, 08:03 AM
Quote from Carter
"I'm pretty sure dumping that many rounds in to a person would constitute excessive force in most places. All the DA, police, jury, etc would hear is, "The defendant shot the victim 30 times with a magnum handgun." Case over, you go to prison."

I agree 100%. Remember you will be judged by a jury of 12 peers. How many are gun supporters? Who would see this as "aggression" as to "self defense".

Do this & be the poster child for ALL ANTI-GUN lovers. I could just see the talk, "gun crazy nut", "see what happens when we don't regulate control of guns", etc.

If you can hit with guns the rest of us use to defend ourselves, practice more.

For plinking or poops & giggles, yea!

Where do you live anyhow, in the streets of Bagdad outside the Green Zone?

StrawHat
October 26, 2010, 08:18 AM
pikid89 ...as a side note, this will be a very very LOUD gun...six shots from my single six WMR is enough to induce temporary deafness for me ...

To address this side note, no such thing as temporary deafness! Deafness is a cumulative thing. And there is no "cure" at this time. But this is a topic for another thread.

natman
October 26, 2010, 11:09 AM
I personally loved carrying things that were low recoil to allow me decently fast and accurate shots. Missing with a .45 is significantly less effective than hitting with even a .22 short, never mind a .22mag. :)
Fortunately, those are not the only two options.

kayak-man
October 26, 2010, 11:11 AM
Yes I would reconsider my stance on .22.

I normally drink coolaid with the "big slow bullet" group. I really like my 1911's, and GLOCK 29's, but I'm willing to step back and take another look every now and then. I think the .22 is a pretty decent round, and I really do like the idea of having that 30 round magazine. I still don't think I would carry one as a primary EDC. It wouldn't surprise me if I eventually get one, and use it as a back up gun, or my formal wear gun.

CARTER: I agree that there is a point where low power vs capacity becomes silly. I also think your dead on with the outcome of the trial. That being said, I think the contrast of your post and your sig-line is kind of funny. YMMV

VinnAY
October 26, 2010, 11:27 AM
I've only ever considered carrying my P22 for a couple of reasons, weight and size are two, but I tend to think a .22, just the introduction of a gun to a defensive situation would hopefully be enough for me to escape to safety. If I did have to fire on a BG, atleast the sight and sound might also allow me to escape. But most of the time it's a 5" 1911 ;)

benEzra
October 26, 2010, 12:08 PM
as a side note, this will be a very very LOUD gun...six shots from my single six WMR is enough to induce temporary deafness for me
A .22 WMR revolver is probably considerably louder than a .22 WMR pistol of the same barrel length, though, due to the barrel-cylinder gap. The .22 WMR pistol won't be quiet by any means, but a lot of a revolver's noise comes from that gap.

Justin
October 26, 2010, 12:48 PM
as a side note, this will be a very very LOUD gun...six shots from my single six WMR is enough to induce temporary deafness for me

If you're shooting guns without wearing hearing protection, even rimfires, you are doing permanent and irreversible hearing damage every single time you pull the trigger.

Hearing protection is cheap, easily available, and extremely effective at protecting you. Stop what you're doing right now, go to the nearest store and buy a $2 package of earplugs.

General Geoff
October 26, 2010, 12:48 PM
The PMR-30 would be a perfectly cromulent choice for a carry weapon to those who are both on a budget and have a hard time dealing with the recoil from a standard centerfire pistol round such as 9mm, .45acp, .40S&W, etc.

The FN Five-seveN is undoubtedly superior due to the 5.7x28mm cartridge's far higher muzzle velocity when fired from a pistol length barrel. But it's also twice as expensive. And in the end, some folks just can't afford it. The PMR-30 is, as has been mentioned, the inexpensive alternative. And there's nothing wrong with that.


As an aside, if the PMR-30 takes off in popularity, ammunition manufacturers will likely begin to market loads designed specifically for the PMR-30, which may significantly reduce the muzzle velocity gap between the 5.7mm and the .22WMR.

GunTech
October 26, 2010, 01:09 PM
The imperfect gun you have on you is better than the perfect one in your safe.
The imperfect gun you hit with is better than the perfect gun you miss with.

You can never have too many rounds in a gunfight. Statistics that say 2-3 rounds are the average. That means someone fired only one, and somebody fired a lot more than 3. Better to have too many rounds than not enough.

BTW, there have been a couple of studies on handgun lethality that seem to indicate that the number of rounds striking the target is more a factor in lethality than the caliber. More hits increases the chance of hitting something vital.

Please note that lethality is not the same as stopping power. You can create a lethal wound which may take hours to kill the target. You can drop someone instantly with a non lethal wound and stop the fight.

Ultimately, the question I have for someone looking for a SD handgun is: does it work reliably? can you hit what you aim at? and do you carry it all the time? The last is of critical importance because most SD shooting happen when you don't expect them. If you were expecting to get in a gunfight, you'd be carrying a rifle.

That big, expensive custom 1911 does you no good if it's sitting in your safe when you need it.

GunTech
October 26, 2010, 01:11 PM
As a reply to the loudness issue, all guns are loud - particular in enclosed spaces. Losing your hearing temporarily is going to be the last of your worries if you get into a gunfight.

ambidextrous1
October 26, 2010, 01:40 PM
Many years ago, I thought the .22 Magnum was a good personal defense round, and became very proficient (accurate) with a pistol in that caliber, through extensive practice. I found that all .22 Mag rounds were not created equal, due to differences in powder burning rate. you need a round with a fast burn rate (Winchester et al) for the short pistol barrel.

After a few years of this endeavor, I gravitated to the large bore center fire pistols, anf feel more secure with that format.

Fire your .22 Magnum pistol a lot; it's good training and a lot of fun; it certainly gets the attention of other shooters. But combine your rimfire shooting with a bit of center fire pistol practice (at least 9 mm), and hopefully, you'll follow the same path to larger (center fire) formats, as I did.

I still shoot the .22 magnum for fun; my short-barreled Automag II always draws a crowd!:eek:

Strahley
October 26, 2010, 03:08 PM
No thanks, 61 rounds is overkill, unless it's SHTF or something

SharpsDressedMan
October 26, 2010, 03:41 PM
Cromulent. Now THERE'S a word you don't see every day! :)

hill.country
October 27, 2010, 03:26 AM
You can never have too many rounds in a gunfight. Statistics that say 2-3 rounds are the average. That means someone fired only one, and somebody fired a lot more than 3. Better to have too many rounds than not enough.

I'm sure the quote is something like "it's not about the probabilities, it's about the stakes" - same as why many carry to begin with.

Back to the OP, I see nothing wrong with carrying 31 rounds of .22wmr, and would not feel either un-armed or under-armed with it... providing the firearm has proven itself reliable.

I'm sorry so many have decided to suggest that anyone carrying such would be less likely to aim well, or somehow be unable to cease firing without emptying your magazine - anymore than someone with an "Evil Black Rifle" would likely empty a 30 round magazine.

I also disagree with the suggestion that 31 (or 61) .22WMR well aimed rounds would typically be needed to stop, incapacitate, or discourage a single attacker as there's simply too much evidence of even the .22lr doing all of the above.

As for the courtroom probabilities if you search you'll see that some here are also worried about how a jury will see use of hollow points http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=408512 (among others), and we've also had this conversation about whether you're more likely to be convicted for using a "massive/excessive" 45 vs [potentially more shots if using] some smaller caliber.

Point is that a DA can make anything sound 'evil', and your lawyer can just as easily talk about how in the interest of preserving life (or for your health reasons [carpal, etc], or for xyz) you were 'only' using a .22 (which I think will resonate with many Texans), to stop the threat.

Texas law (as I understand it) allows firing in self-defense until the threat has ceased. It dosen't mention a number of rounds, and if you look at police incidents you'll find precedent there as well. As I see it if you're justified in using force, you're justified in using as much as required to stop the thread.

So while I don't carry it, I don't discount the .22WMR's stopping power, and agree withBetter to have too many rounds than not enough.

Ragnar Danneskjold
October 27, 2010, 03:40 AM
The main problem is the reliability, and the lack of penetration/power not the diameter. Keep in mind that a small round, like the 5.56 or the 5.7, when going fast enough is plenty destructive. I would love to carry a pistol chambered in 5.7 if there was a Glock in that caliber and the rounds were cheap and plentiful enough. Skip the 1 or 2 big rounds and hoping for the best. Being able to put 6 or 7 rounds in tight accurate succession all driving towards that spinal cord is where it's at. Not to mention still having more than half a magazine left when you're done.

hill.country
October 27, 2010, 04:32 AM
The main problem is the reliability, and the lack of penetration/power not the diameter.

While I would expect even better penetration from the PMR-30 than the NAA mini-revolver there's some .22WMR ballistic gel data right here at THR: Ballistic gelatin test results : .22 Magnum (NAA Mini-Revolver) (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=262584)

Shots were fired at 10" distance from the block - as such, impact velocities were not recorded.

Shot 1 - CCI Maxi-Mag HP +V 30gr, penetrated to 11.4". No expansion/deformation present.

Shot 2 - Winchester 40gr Semi-jacketed hollowpoint (part #X22MH), penetrated to 10.6". No expansion present.

Shot 3 - Winchester Supreme 34gr JHP (part #S22WM), penetrated to 11.0". Minimal expansion of copper jacket took place, no deformation of the lead inner core.

Shot 4 - Remington 40gr JHP (part # R22M1), penetrated to 9.0". No expansion present.

Shot 5 - CCI 40gr TMJ (FMJ bullet), thru penetrated the 16.0" block and was not recovered - estimated penetration depth was 12.5" plus some.

Better still check out the gel photos (and 5.7x28 comparison) at reply #29 of http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1262737740/29. Also some "different" 2" barrel .22WMR penetration data at reply #30 http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1262737740/30


Here's some very consistent .22 WMR performance from a 2" barrel, regardless of ammo manufacturer or bullet mass. The results would be better with another 2" on the barrel, as the PMR-30 gelatin results in the previous post demonstrate.

14.6" penetration, 40 gr .22 WMR, 2" barrel
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1541.htm

14.5" penetration, 40 gr .22 WMR, 2" barrel
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1455.htm

14.3" penetration, 30 gr .22 WMR, 2" barrel
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1565.htm

14.3" penetration, 40 gr .22 WMR, 2" barrel
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1610.htm

Velocities from the PMR-30 if you want them at http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1259682868

FWIW: Similar discussion at Glocktalk last January
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1173257

mljdeckard
October 27, 2010, 07:24 AM
I decided years ago that I was more worried about carrying the gun I shoot best than how many rounds it holds. We don't live in MelGibsonland where you shoot 15 or more straight shots without reloading. Should you find yourself in such a situation, it is unlikely that a handgun will save your life anyway.

All handguns are a compromise of stopping power vs portability, and in this gun I see no gained advantage in concealability, or in stopping power. With all handguns you are shooting until the threat stops, and in this case, if you ever had to use it, I think you could be waiting a timespan that would feel like a decade in a defensive situation. I think I would be much more effective with three or four bigger bullets. With a .22 mag, if the first few don't save you, I think the rest of them are a waste of time and space.

DonRon
October 27, 2010, 09:02 AM
There is no such thing as stopping power unless you take out the central nervous system of the aggressor. Remember the .22 short, that's what killed Bobby Kennedy. I say caliber is totally irrelevant, it's where you put it that really matters. But then again that is only my opinion and what do I know! What I do know is that, the human body does not do well when hit with anything going at 1,000 feet a second.

HGUNHNTR
October 27, 2010, 09:09 AM
No thanks, 61 rounds is overkill, unless it's SHTF or something

No kidding, and when I drive to work I put just enough gas in the tank to get me there and home, its not like I'm trying to outrun the zombie hoard or anything. :p

scotjute
October 27, 2010, 11:41 AM
My thought would be NO!. While the round is everything the .22lr always dreamed of being when it grows up and has good penetration, its still too small of a round to be a "good" self-defense stopping round. Also the pistol is a bit large for concealed carry. A "fair" self-defense round/gun, maybe, certainly its better than nothing and better than .22 lr.
The round is fairly effective on smaller-med. game. I've done a one-shot stop on a large dog when a pack was in my yard. That however was from a .22 magnum rifle. It would normally be considered too small for hunting deer size game, and even more lacking for stopping a charging deer-size animal.

LHRGunslinger
October 27, 2010, 11:45 AM
I think the only way you could call it a really good defense weapon is if it had a three round burst function letting you put ALOT of rounds into the target quickly. I remember someone comparing the .22 WMR to a scratch awl. And if you're defending yourself with a scratch awl you want to be able to put ALOT of holes in whatever you need to.

teirst
October 27, 2010, 02:53 PM
I can not think of a single self defense scenario that would not be able to be taken care of in less than 10 rounds. I remember seeing some figures somewhere about the "average" gun fight. I seem to remember average self defense is under 10 feet, with around 2 rounds total fired. It is the movies that lead us to thinking that an assailant will be able to tolerate 10+ rounds before finally dying. If you hit center mass a couple times on a person not wearing body armor with a 9mm they are not going to want to fight anymore. Quantity can matter, but imho once you hit 10 rounds you are good

Saying you want 61 rounds for self defense is what has the revolver guys laughing at semi guys.

Ragnar Danneskjold
October 27, 2010, 05:43 PM
And yet there are still bank robberies, jewelry store robberies, gang shootings, gang rapes and beat-downs, and team home invasions that all involve 3, 4, even 5 or more subjects. It happens. No one is saying you have to use every single round you have. But having the option of having more ammo when you realize your shooting doesn't exactly fit the standard formula is a smart thing.

A smart man prepares for what will probably happen
A very smart man also prepares for what could happen.
Which are you?

Zerodefect
October 27, 2010, 06:28 PM
No.

That 31 round Keltec looks to be as big as a 13 round .40 S&W Glock 23. 13 rounds plus a 15 round G22 magazine for a reload is plenty.

No thanks, I'll take the G23.

In a gunfight, I figure if I haven't eliminated the threat in 10 rounds, regardless of how many mags I have on my belt, the chances of me dieing go up exponentially very quick. It's been a bad, bad day when I have to reload under stress.

But that deosn't mean that I don't carry a reload, I do.

How many shots can the bad guy land on you in the time it took for you to send 10+ rounds in his direction?


What I find more interesting is at this point in a 5.7x28mm thread there's a dozen posts saying how weak and completely ineffective 5.7 is. Yet far weaker .22 mag is OK? What's up with that?

:rolleyes:

ms6852
October 27, 2010, 07:14 PM
The following indvidual makes several compelling agruments about the 22 rimfire for self defense. Though his reference is about the 22 lr not the 22 magnum.

http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2006/04/22-long-rifle-for-self-defense.html

My wife has a 38 S&W model 642 that she carries with crimson tracer grips but refuses to shoot it for practice because of recoil but I know that she would shoot it in an emergency.

Personally I would feel much better her carrying 30 rounds of 22 magnum in a single magazine knowing that she will use it with less fear. This way she gets to practice and I can teach her better tactics, multi target acquisition, weak hand, etc.

There are those that argue about spraying bullets around because of innocent bystanders and there is truth to that. But, many times there will be no witness around when some one is attacked. Either by one or more perps. This way the perps get to duck for a long time if they are not hit instead of her getting to shoot 5 times only with a 38. Just my opinion.

AJAX22
October 27, 2010, 07:27 PM
I have a grendel P30 and P31...

would love to pick up one of those keltec's... do they use the same magazines?

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/S5001163.jpg

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/S5000684.jpg

Shadow 7D
October 27, 2010, 08:05 PM
like the idea, but much like the 5.7 (it is a .22 after all)
it may have it's place, my doubt would be with a rimmed round as .22 has trouble in double stacked mags, known limitation.

As a SD, I am a firm believer that much like realestate, Location, location, LOCATION is what counts, so 30 rounds in vital organs, are JUST as effective at 7 .45s.... ( you will end up dead, and yeah there is the time thing, and PLEASE, no knockdown factor, that has been PROVEN to be psychological (unless it's a .50bmg :neener: )

But then it comes to platform and shooter if it's accurate and reliable, then by all means, however I'll take my P32 and OWB gun...

mljdeckard
October 28, 2010, 05:33 AM
DonRon, I said stopping power, not knockdown power. There is absolutely a stopping power factor in handguns. The idea is to cause as much tissue damage as possible in the shortest amount of time. The more cm3 of tissue damage you cause, the more likely you are to hit something that makes the attacker stop. I have more faith in 6-9 well placed .45s. Or .38s, for that matter.

easyg
October 28, 2010, 11:45 AM
If your pistol held 30 rounds in the magazine and 1 in the chamber weighs less than 20 ounces, and it comes with another 30 round magazine, would you reconsider your stand on carrying a rimfire for self defense if it were a 22 magnum? Kel Tec has the new PMR 30 in 22 magnum for under $450. You can easily now cary over 60 rounds for self defense. What is your stand on this new pistol?
It's not a matter of capacity, it's a matter of caliber effectiveness.

The .22 magnum is simply not a good caliber for self defense.

Yes, the .22 magnum can kill a person, as can the .22LR and the .22 short.
But the .22 (even the .22 magnum) has a dismal reputation for QUICKLY STOPPING a human aggressor.



The likely outcome of using a .22 for self defense:

The bad guy advances with a baseball bat.

The good guy draws and shoots with his .22 caliber pistol and hits the bad guy several times before the bad guy is upon him.

The bad guy, having closed the distance, crushes the good guy's skull with the bat.
The bad guy continues to pulverize the good guy for several minutes insuring that the good guy is dead.

The bad guy takes the good guy's wallet and walks away.

20 minutes later, and while bleeding profusely, the bad guy calls 911 and claims to be a victim of a "drive by" shooting.

Approximately 15 minutes later EMS arrives and starts life-saving treatment to the wounded bad guy.

15 minutes later the bad guy arrives at the emergency room.

10 minutes later the bad guy is taken to surgery.

Despite the heroic efforts of the EMS, the emergency room personnel, and the OR staff, the bad guy dies during surgery.

The good guy is survived by his wife and two children.

n2cycles
December 4, 2010, 05:15 PM
I have one of these now and here is my thoughts on the gun, the ammo and the best use for it. First, the 22 mag is a very reliable round. I sent 5 rounds through the washing machine and dryer. My wife found them and freaked because she thought they would blow up. I took them out and fired all rounds through my NAA mini revolver. Not a single misfire. I have never had a 22 mag not go boom when the gun was working correctly. Second, the 22 mag is not the best round for purely defensive purposes. However, I have carried the NAA in 22mag for over 20 years. It has gone places that I would not have been able to carry any other kind of gun. In a true mouse gun, this is one of the better rounds. Of course I would much rather have a 9mm if I had a choice. Finally, the PMR30. This gun scared me for the first 2 mags. It jammed a lot and I figured I better clean and oil it. I did that and it hasn't jammed since. 300 rounds later and still runs like a clock. This gun is ultra light and about the size of a Glock 17 but thinner. It has a nice trigger pull and it accurate enough to use for trail use. This is the gun I grab when I walk my dog on a wooded trail in rural central VA. My seat of the pants evaluation of the power of this round is much stronger than the 22lr in my 10-22. Exactly what you need if confronted by a pack wild dogs, rabid forest animals, or people meaning you harm while hiking or camping. The major down side is that it looks like a pellet gun and it might force you to prove it is dangerous while your Glock is easily identifiable. However, one pull of the trigger and the BG will see a major flash and hear a very loud bang.

tostada
December 4, 2010, 05:59 PM
I think using a S&W 351PD (22 mag revolver) is reasonable for self-defense. I don't think using a Kel-Tec 22 autoloader is, though. I doubt it's nearly as reliable as a Ruger autoloader.

migkillertwo
December 4, 2010, 06:29 PM
I definitely would not. I'd trust a Kel-tec PF-9 before relying on any rimfire cartridge to stop a BG. The 22 might pierce an artery, but will it sever it like a 9mm or a .45 JHP?

azyogi
December 4, 2010, 07:09 PM
Quote General Geoff
"As an aside, if the PMR-30 takes off in popularity, ammunition manufacturers will likely begin to market loads designed specifically for the PMR-30"

+1 on that I'd love to see a quicker pistol powder loaded into a .22WMR, would attract more buyers than just those with a PMR-30

varoadking
December 4, 2010, 09:49 PM
But the .22 (even the .22 magnum) has a dismal reputation for QUICKLY STOPPING a human aggressor.


You've studied this?

Nomad, 2nd
December 4, 2010, 10:11 PM
Don't trust rimfire....

END of discussion.

orionengnr
December 4, 2010, 10:28 PM
"carry a handgun in the most powerful caliber you can shoot well".

No, thank you. To carry this .22 bit to a ridiculous extreme, one could carry a BB gun with 100 rounds.
Would I carry a .22 anything? Yes...if my other option was a sharp stick. Fortunately, that is not the case. :)

sxcamaro05
December 5, 2010, 12:00 AM
I don't see how this would benefit you save for being small. 22 Mag is not very cheap to shoot and its a caliber I would only use for hunting etc.

DavePuzz
December 5, 2010, 04:24 AM
"Most" shootings are over in 2-3 shots. I'd like my 2-3 shots to be rounds as powerful as I can easily and quickly place on target. For me that's usually a .45 ACP.

I've trained to put those 2-3 .45s into the center of a target at rates of fire better than 5 shots per second. I doubt the lesser recoil of a .22 mag is going to let me go a whole lot faster than that.

As the statistics seem to indicate that I'm vanishingly unlikely to need more than half of a 1911 magazine to deal with my problems, and I generally carry 3 total, the extra 65 rounds of .22 Magnum I could have on hand seem superfluous.
the 1911 .45 acp....makes a final decision

The Lone Haranguer
December 5, 2010, 09:32 AM
It might be a magnum, but it is still a .22. If I am going to have a gun of that size, I would rather have at least 9mm Luger. And I would want to see some "range reports" and long term reliability testing, as I can't imagine a worse cartridge to feed in an autoloading pistol action than the .22 Mag. Thirty-something "ca'tridges in the clip" does no good if one fails to fire, hangs up on a feed ramp or a fired case "stovepipes." Save this cartridge for a mini-revolver as a BUG.

natman
December 5, 2010, 12:15 PM
I'd rather have 7 rounds of 45 ACP, thanks. Unless you expect to have to fend off Banzai charges from chipmunks.

jimjc
December 5, 2010, 12:33 PM
First shooting a 22 mag is almost as expensive as shooting a 9mm, the mag. is 3 to 4 times more expensive than 22lr. so for plinking it`s doesn`t make sense plus as some have said it`s very loud. Shooting small varmints, it blows squirrels bodies all apart.

Defence guns, 99% of gun owners never go to defence classes, so the only gun they have a chance with is a shotgun, "mega clip 22 mags". I don`t see as being the answer they have some reliability issues, if you have to have a 22 mag. for defence get a revolver, they hold 8 shots, when would you need any more.

I had 22mag revolver and after owning it I didn`t see the reason for it. I now count on shotgun for defence, shotgun, 22lr and 9mm for shooting and a hobby.

By the way KAL TEK has a 9mm carbine assault that looks very good and you can get different models that use all the popular mags from Glock to S&W to Sig, there are about 6 different mags as I recall. It`s nice to have the same mag. as your handgun.

berettaprofessor
December 5, 2010, 01:27 PM
Handled one of these Kel-Tecs yesterday at a gun show. Thought to myself that I've never felt a worse grip in my life. And the next guy to pick it up said the exact same thing out loud.

MidwestRookie
December 5, 2010, 06:21 PM
what the hell are you gonna shoot at 30 times? i think overkill is a real thing to cops, right?

plus, you'd be deaf after 5 shots...

if I carried I'd have a 1911 on me, period. nice and slim, and one .45 into soft tissue or especially a vital area is gonna stop the majority of "bad guys"..

bigfatdave
December 5, 2010, 08:17 PM
what the hell are you gonna shoot at 30 times? Attack monkeys with HIV.

FruitCake
December 6, 2010, 03:12 PM
I unfornately got myself with my NAA 22Mag at pointblnk to my abdominal area and it traveled almost 6 inches under the skin and then out landing on my lap.I went to the hospital they ran xrays and released me in 3 hours. Lucky I guess. If it traveled only 6 inches through fat(Under the skin ok) at point blank then at a distance I guess it would be useless. Or maybe somebody from above was watching.

PTK
December 14, 2010, 04:19 PM
I picked up a PMR30 for ~$250, NIB with two mags. Honestly, my opinion has changed from "somewhat warm toward the PMR30" to "I no longer miss my USG 5.7". Quieter, lower recoil, higher capacity, much less expensive ammo and gun, much less expensive magazines... I love it. I really, really love it. The only change I'll be making is putting a second firing pin in to bring it closer to center fire reliability.

As for the grip? Honestly, it's a personal preference thing - it fits me fine, and it's slim enough that my girlfriend has no issue with it either. The lack of a normal push-button mag catch helps it seem slimmer. It's more comfortable than my USG 5.7 or USP-T 45 ever were.

It's a niche gun, but it certainly has found a use, for me. :)

Gelgoog
December 14, 2010, 06:22 PM
The only use I can see for it, would be as a backpacking survival pistol.

.22 mag while not so good on rodents, would do fine for anything from rabbits upto wolves. It would do ok on two legged predators out in the woods. I would hate to be 15 miles from the nearest dirt road up in the mountains after having been shot with one of those and have to hike my way out.

now if I am in grizzly/moose/elk country....well anything less then a 12gauge loaded with slugs or a .308 is not going to cut it in my book.

ratt_finkel
December 15, 2010, 12:07 PM
PTK: where did you find one for that cheap! I can't find any for half that!

PTK
December 15, 2010, 01:41 PM
A gas station/gun/liquor store, funny enough.

The Lone Haranguer
December 15, 2010, 08:33 PM
A gas station/gun/liquor store, funny enough.
Now there is true one-stop shopping. :D All that is missing are bail bonds. :p

stolivar
December 15, 2010, 10:33 PM
I love mine. It will shoot anything you stuff in it. very reliable and deadly accurate.


steve:neener:

mustang_steve
December 15, 2010, 11:08 PM
If you're going to go rimfire, go 22mag....22lr out of a pocket pistol is like using 22shorts, which isn't even a remotely good idea. It may do the job, but it's a serious crapshoot.

provided .25acp is better than 22mag (it was designed for pocket pistols, is more manageable and has similar overall energy...and is centerfire), but .22mag does have it's place in an arsenal.

The KT pistol is IMO too big to fill the role of carry pistol though. The typical 22mag pistols are Derringers and the NAA mini-revolvers (The Pug and Black Widow are of particular interest). I have a little Cobra Derringer in .22mag. It's far slower to use than a .25acp pistol, recoils harder but is easier to conceal than the tiniest 25acp pistol.

If you're going to get a full size pistol and want capacity, just get a Glock in 9mm and enjoy your serious ammo capacity AND additional energy delivery provided by the larger round.

daorhgih
December 16, 2010, 12:03 AM
A thirty-member gang ....... eventually (LOL).

SIGLBER
December 16, 2010, 03:36 AM
I mentioned it in another post. Bill Jordon said that a .22 Magnum J-frame would make a perfect back up gun. I think he would know. He also said the little .22 Magnum did damage way out of proportion to it's size. Would I pick it over a gu nfiring a major srvice caliber? Probably not. Would I feel underarmed with it? Hell no! As with any gun shoot them in the right spot and repeat as necessary.
Awhile back a young lady in Kentucky was in a bank and had one of the little
NAA revolvers in .22 Magnum on her. As the robber ran out the door she shot him. He fell dead before he got to his car. She hit him in the neck cutting the major artery in the side of the neck. He bleed out real fast.

sxcamaro05
December 16, 2010, 03:54 AM
I do not trust a 22 mag anymore than a 22 LR. I want to use as few shots as possible. 30+ rounds is too many to be justifiable.

PTK
December 16, 2010, 04:33 AM
That argument is rather pointless; "He used a DEADLY, WELL KNOWN, MAN STOPPER round, the FORTY FIVE CALIBER AUTOMATIC COLT PISTOL CARTRIDGE, with HOLLOW POINTS, and shot the poor victim TWICE in the CHEST." would ruin your day just as much. ;)

mustang_steve
December 16, 2010, 09:35 AM
Siglber,

The reason it does far more damage than people anticpated is in a world of handguns, you are sticking a magnum (extremely high pressure) rifle cartridge into a handgun. Even at 50% power loss, it's going to hit as hard as a .22LR from a rifle. An NAA black widow with CCI Maxi Mag +V will put out an average 1381fps velocity. That is above the sound barrier, so there is a potential for the shockwave to cause some damage as well. That's just nasty.

Provided, any other ammo in this pistol results in velocities approaching the sonic barrier, but not quite piercing it. Even when used in a 1-58" barrel, the Maxi-mag +V will still go supersonic, however in a 1-1/8 Barrel it will try to reach the barrier, but not quite make it. It would be at .22LR velocities though.

Velocity is just one part of the equation however, as some slower ammo (the Winchester Supreme for example) dominate over these high velocity rounds when it comes to gelatin and other penetration tests. It's all in what you want out of it.

Either way, don't feel underarmed if you have a .22mag revolver...it's not "ideal" by what most people on the forum would consider defense, but it's more than enough firearm to get you out of a bind.

stolivar
December 16, 2010, 09:50 PM
I have never had a 22 mag dude in over 30 years. I can not say the same for 22 lr... It is a very reliable round...


steve

orionengnr
December 16, 2010, 11:39 PM
If your (supposed) multiple attackers are unarmed, totally unorganized and not terribly motivated...

You may get off 30 shots in an "SD" situation. Really? Is that what you are counting upon? :rolleyes:

Real life tends to be somewhat more challenging. If you have one adversary, you may be able to stand back and put 30 rounds into him...and then you will get an opportunity to explain those actions to the DA and the jury. Good luck.

Worst case, you are facing multiple adversaries. Do you think they will stand there, patiently waiting for you to dispense your ration of lead to each? If you have to take the time to put 5-10 rounds of puny .22 into each, one (or more) of the others will put you out of your misery before much time elapses.

Done. Game over. No reset.

IMHO, expecting that 31 rounds of an ineffective caliber to rule the day carries a video game mindset.

If that is your SD plan, may God have mercy on your soul, because the goblins surely will not.

Joe Demko
December 17, 2010, 12:19 AM
"Goblins?"

1911austin
December 17, 2010, 06:26 PM
there was an incident a while back where some garage owner got burglarized, but i do not recall if the burglar was hit or not but the guy that shot at the burglar was asked by the police how many times he shot and he replied 7 times. When asked by the police why he shot 7 times he responded i ran out of bullets.


god bless texas :d

Laf'n'Larry
December 19, 2010, 12:50 AM
A thirty-member gang ....... eventually (LOL).
Your probably closer to the truth than you realize. While I notice many of the comments about 31/61 rounds being too much to justify in court, most of the Texans commenting don't seem to be so worried about the court. It is perhaps because our neighbors to the south are already experiencing SHTF. The drug cartels are engaging in open warfare against each other and the authorities.

It is spreading to this side. In a few cases, not only drugs, but also, bullets are flying across the border and there have been fatalities as a result. Remember the American jet skier that was killed on Lake Falcon. The Mexican officer that was investigating his death was also murdered and decapitated, http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130698341

It's about four hour drive to the border from my house. So, "better judged by twelve than carried by six", "there's no such thing as too much ammo," I want the largest caliber that I can handle effectively. So, no. The PMR won't be my first choice in SD. But I would like to have one anyway. It looks like a fun "power plinker". Now, PTK what was the phone number for that gas station? :)

PTK
December 19, 2010, 04:56 AM
Now, PTK what was the phone number for that gas station?

Since it's here in Montana and you're there in Texas... ;)

JShirley
December 19, 2010, 06:12 AM
It is impossible to have a "perfect gun" you miss with.

Now that I've dealt with that glaring and annoying impossibility, I have owned several KT products. I had one of the first P32s (12x). When I first handled the P32, I started thinking about how neat a "kit gun" version in .22 magnum, with a longer barrel and adjustable sights, would be. I sent KT several emails suggesting this (and later, suggesting an M4-style stock for the over-long SU-16. But I digress).

I like the light weight and low recoil of the .22 Magnum, but I am much happier with its defensive potential from a rifle. The PMR is only ideal for dealing with packs of coyotes or medium-sized feral dogs, or for use as a bedside gun by the handicapped/physically challenged. While wearing ear protection.

John

Aftermath
December 19, 2010, 07:29 PM
I think it looks like a cool little gun, I would have liked to buy one when I had the money a couple months back , maybe a bit of an impulse buy.

Too bad they were unavailable ( still are? ). I think it is a bit silly they can't manufacture them quickly enough to have them stocked anywhere. Maybe they don't know what they are doing - I no longer plan on buying one.

BlindJustice
December 19, 2010, 09:14 PM
No - SPray and Pray is not a good strategy

what's 30 rds of .22 mag weigh anyhoo ?

R-

PTK
December 20, 2010, 01:26 AM
I think it looks like a cool little gun, I would have liked to buy one when I had the money a couple months back , maybe a bit of an impulse buy.

Too bad they were unavailable ( still are? ). I think it is a bit silly they can't manufacture them quickly enough to have them stocked anywhere. Maybe they don't know what they are doing - I no longer plan on buying one.
I see them in gun shops, gun shows, a gas station (;)), and all over the internet. Who says they're hard to find?

charlie echo
December 20, 2010, 01:52 AM
No, I'd rather have: 6+1 45 ACPs, 6 44Mag's, or 6 45LC+Ps (assuming that a 30 caliber family of rifle's not available) vs. an armed hostile.

Now 22 mags would be a fine if killing's all you're after and you have the element of surprise or the initiative, but that's not self-defense.

Eric0424
December 20, 2010, 02:35 AM
I said it before on another forum referring to the recent imitation AR and AK tactical style rifles from Remington, Ruger, etc., etc. chambered in 22lr, there are reasons our law enforcement and military personnel don't carry rimfire rounds into combat or defense situations.

If the rimfire cartridge was anywhere near as deadly, accurate, effective and reliable as some of you think it is, it would be in service somewhere.

Again, 22 wmr is just as reliable as a centerfire.

No, it's not. The 22mag I've shot had been just as problematic as the 22lr. Some are worse than others and some of the issues can be caused by the weapon itself, but the rimfire cartridge is not as reliable as the centerfire.

...No expansion/deformation present.

...No expansion present.

...Minimal expansion of copper jacket took place, no deformation of the lead inner core.

...No expansion present.

...thru penetrated the 16.0" block and was not recovered...

I feel that's the most relevant text from that post.

But the .22 (even the .22 magnum) has a dismal reputation for QUICKLY STOPPING a human aggressor.

You've studied this?

See the information above.

what's 30 rds of .22 mag weigh anyhoo ?

Winchester 40gr Super X JHP (soft point) is 3.324-oz. per/30 rounds, the CCI Maxi-Mag 40gr Total Metal Jacket is 4.287-oz. per/30 rounds.

...and while I have the scales out, four rounds of Speer Gold Dot 230gr JHP in 45ACP is 2.992-oz, seven rounds of Speer Gold Dot 124gr 9mm is 3.121-oz and ten rounds of Fiocchi 95gr FMJ (brass jacket) 9mm Makarov weighs in at 3.528-oz..

Laf'n'Larry
December 20, 2010, 10:31 AM
Quote:
...No expansion/deformation present.

...No expansion present.

...Minimal expansion of copper jacket took place, no deformation of the lead inner core.

...No expansion present.

...thru penetrated the 16.0" block and was not recovered...

These results sure surprised me! I have no experience with jell, but I've hunted with 22 mag and I expected to see hollow points blow-up. Hollow points always expanded explosively on any animal I ever shot. On small game it just blew them up and on coyote and javelina size critters, 25 to 40 pound range, the bullet would pulverize a small 1 1/2" to 2" by 2" to 4" size pocket of meat at and just under the skin. Max penetration was never more than 6 or 7 inches. The plated round nose bullets, on the other hand, performed just like they did in the jell. They almost always penetrated unless they struck a heavier bone. There was often evidence of tumbling during passage. Of course, I was hunting with a rifle, that may account for the difference, but it does make me wonder about the accuracy of jell as a predictor of bullet performance.

No, it's not. The 22mag I've shot had been just as problematic as the 22lr. Some are worse than others and some of the issues can be caused by the weapon itself, but the rimfire cartridge is not as reliable as the centerfire.



I wonder if rimfire gets a bad rap because we shoot so much more of it. It isn't uncommon for two or three friends to go thru a 500 round brick in an afternoon of plinking. In my case, I can't afford to shoot centerfire that way, so rimfire is most of my practice. Consequently, I should see more FTF in rimfire, but I don't.

We all have different experiences with rimfire. Several months back, I found (relocated) several boxes of 42+ year old 22 lr that I had stupidly put in a cabinet up high in the bathroom where they were exposed to the steamy vapor coming off the shower. They had been in that cabinet for approx. 27 of the 42 years. Just for the heck of it I decided to take them to the range. I had 5 FTF out of 250+ rounds. Those are the only misfires I've ever had out of thousands of rounds of rimfire.

Eric0424
December 21, 2010, 03:52 AM
These results sure surprised me!

There's really no way to tell what jell recipe they were shooting in to, if it's to hard or too soft compared to human tissue the results will be moot at best. I feel the 22 rimfire in mag or LR is a great round for small game and I believe the size of the critter will determine the amount of damage the 22 can cause . Try to imagine the amount of damage caused by the 9mm, 45 or 357 at legal, self defense handgun distance on the same animals. I'm thinking it would be nothing but a pile of red paste and fur.

A friend of mine shot a squirrel with a 7mm-08 or his 30-06 once, he said there was nothing but the tail left.
****Edit: I forgot the 0 in 7mm-08.

I believe the 22 rimfire shot into most humans will probably do more damage from ricocheting around than from actual bullet expansion due to their size, but body structure will also play a role in how much damage occurs.

I wonder if rimfire gets a bad rap because we shoot so much more of it.

That's possible, I've probably shot 20% more rimfire than centerfire over the years and the 22lr has yielded about 1-2% failure rate when the weapons are clean and running right, the 17HMR hasn't had but two or three misfires in about 500 rounds, the 22-mag was pretty bad with the Winchester Super-X I mentioned above. With the center fire I've not had one failure in factory loaded ammo and only 1 stovepipe every 200-300 rounds of the local range reloads. This is mostly handgun centerfire and rifle rimfire, I won't speak of my 22-Mag derringer's failure rate, it just wouldn't be fair rimfire cartridge. The little derringer is a problematic headcase.

Still a 1-2% rimfire failure compared to the 0.33-0.5% centerfire.

We all have different experiences with rimfire. Several months back, I found (relocated) several boxes of 42+ year old 22 lr that I had stupidly put in a cabinet up high in the bathroom where they were exposed to the steamy vapor coming off the shower. They had been in that cabinet for approx. 27 of the 42 years. Just for the heck of it I decided to take them to the range. I had 5 FTF out of 250+ rounds. Those are the only misfires I've ever had out of thousands of rounds of rimfire.

That is funny :), one of the worst possible places to store ammo, for nearly 30 years and still just a 2% failure on the tortured rounds.

This may sound a little odd, but I just recently started shooting some CCI Blazer and Mini-Mag through my Marlin 60 after shooting thousands of rounds of Remington Golden Bullets with only the occasional misfire or dud. My first 350 rounds of Blazer have been 100% so far, but the Mini-Mag produced the round pictured below in the first 100 round box.

After looking the rifle over inside and out and finding it to be in perfect working order I started inspecting the other 500+ rounds of Mini-Mag. I found one with a bullet that was deformed and another that had no bullet or powder in it. The empty case didn't even have a crimp around the mouth. CCI rimfire ammo, and the Mini-Mag in particular, have the best reputation in the industry of being the most reliable and worry free, and I believe it. It was just my luck to stumble across three defective rounds out of the first 600 I bought. :scrutiny:

http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad125/Eric_D_0424/Bang03.jpg http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad125/Eric_D_0424/Bang04.jpg

http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad125/Eric_D_0424/Bang02.jpg

Vern Humphrey
December 21, 2010, 11:05 AM
I'll use a 22 for defense but only if I have to but given the choice I want a bigger caliber for defense.
I've said many times disasters occur because people plan to have disasters. If you wind up in a shootout with only a .22, it's because you planned to carry a .22. It's just as easy to plan for and carry a .45 or .357 -- proven manstoppers.

Geno
December 21, 2010, 11:34 AM
A Glock 26, 19, 17, 17L or 34 all can hold 33 rounds of 9mm plus one in the chamber. Yes, it's heavier, and the magazines are larger too. But, the chances of a 9mm failing was exponentially lower than a .22 Mag. For that matter, I would take 8 rounds of .45 ACP over 31 rounds of .22 Mag. As has been stated, most defensive shooting are over in about 2.5 rounds.

Geno

Mr.Davis
December 21, 2010, 12:13 PM
If I'm going to use a gun in defense the bad guy is going to have to be very close to me so I have always considered a 22lr for that reason. I don't know enough about 22 and SD but I would certainly consider it. I have been eyeballing my kids Walther P22 because of the size and weight I'm just not sure I could place a shot that well.

If you like the P22 but want a stouter round, check out the PK380.

Yo Mama
December 21, 2010, 12:31 PM
I don't care what it is, a rubber band gun to the face will make me flinch. I'm pretty sure a 22mag will also.

Pete D.
December 21, 2010, 02:57 PM
I've hunted with 22 mag and I expected to see hollow points blow-up. Hollow points always expanded explosively on any animal I ever shot. On small game it just blew them up and on coyote and javelina size critters, 25 to 40 pound range, the bullet would pulverize a small 1 1/2" to 2" by 2" to 4" size pocket of meat at and just under the skin. Max penetration was never more than 6 or 7
I was hunting with a rifle, that may account for the difference,

You betcha it does. The velocity loss from rifle to a pistol barrel the length in question is from 2000fps+ to 1400 fps or less (1400 is from a 6.5" barreled revolver.)
Pete

JShirley
December 21, 2010, 05:43 PM
There's really no way to tell what jell recipe they were shooting in to, if it's to hard or too soft compared to human tissue the results will be moot at best

Actually, gel shots only count if they fire a bb into the gel, verifying it goes to the proper depth. It is then calibrated = correct.

Your friend who claimed to utterly destroy the squirrel with the rifle? Lied.

John

Erik M
December 21, 2010, 06:52 PM
rimfire just isnt consistent enough for me to trust my life to it. IMO the pmr can not fill the role of cc weapon or home defense weapon and is a plinker at best.

Eric0424
December 22, 2010, 01:51 AM
Quote:
There's really no way to tell what jell recipe they were shooting in to, if it's to hard or too soft compared to human tissue the results will be moot at best
Actually, gel shots only count if they fire a bb into the gel, verifying it goes to the proper depth. It is then calibrated = correct.



John

To clarify my jell test comment. If the test results presented above are in stark contrast to what I, or anyone else, has experienced first hand. Most of us would consider the possibility that the jell recipe could have been off, in which case the results would be null and void. That was the point I was trying to make to Laf'n'Larry. If his results are just the opposite of those above, then maybe their jell was not the right consistency to mimic human tissue or the animal tissue he was shooting.

I won't dignify your closing remarks with an actually response.

Marshall
December 22, 2010, 02:06 AM
I've shot more squirrels with a .22 than I can count. None were utterly destroyed. The had a hole in them. Just saying, that's my experience.

Home, I'll take a shotgun, carrying I'll take a 9mm, .40 or .45. Leave the .22 for the squirrels, and mob pros that offensively plan for temple shots.

Girodin
December 22, 2010, 02:23 AM
Most self defense situations involve the need to stop a threat ASAP. If there is not imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm then there is no reason to be using a firearm. You need to stop something quickly not after 30 trigger pulls. Most self defense shooting do not involve firing particularly high round counts. Thus, I do no see having a 30round 22 mag as an advantage over a 15-17 round weapon in a more typical SD handgun. Honestly I'd rather have 8 rounds of .45 in a 1911, or 17 rounds in a Steyr M9 (approx the size of a G19) or 15 in a G19, etc, etc, than 30 rounds of 22 mag. I think I'd probably even prefer 20-30 rounds of 5.7x28 than 30 rounds of 22 mag. The 5.7 has notable advantages and owning both Kel tec and FN firearms I can tell you which I have more faith in.

JShirley
December 22, 2010, 10:06 AM
Most of us would consider the possibility that the jell recipe could have been off, in which case the results would be null and void. That was the point I was trying to make to Laf'n'Larry. If his results are just the opposite of those above, then maybe their jell was not the right consistency to mimic human tissue or the animal tissue he was shooting.

There is a scientific way to see if the gel is correct. As I said previously- and can readily be found over the intarwebs- this is determined by the depth a bb penetrates. Since the bb velocity is known, the depth it should penetrate is also known. Science is based on observable fact, and is repeatable. If the bb calibration is correct, the gel is correct. End story.

I won't dignify your closing remarks with an actually response.

Let me break this down slowly for you.

1. There are few varmint rounds in .308 or 7mm. Absent magic exploding rounds, varmint bullets are the only ones that could possibly give a result at all close to what you described your friend said.
2. Squirrel are considered edible prey, not varmint, so your friend would not have been using such a round if he had one of the few available.
3. If using SP ammunition, squirrels are not thick enough for much expansion- and certainly no fragmentation to happen.
4. If using FMJ, no fragmentation would happen.
5. If "barking" a squirrel by shooting the tree underneath it, this would not happen.

Conclusion: Your friend lied.

NELSONs02
December 22, 2010, 10:19 AM
Aside from everthing else mentioned, choose the right bullet. Hollow points are no good in a .22 mag unless you're just shooting little critters...

With maybe the exception of the Gold Dot

Eric0424
December 22, 2010, 09:32 PM
John, I'm not going to argue with you over events (jell mixing, calibration, storage, etc.) I was not on hand to witness in person. If you're convinced they're 100% accurate, great.

...End (of) story.

Okay, at least we can agree on that.

...Hollow points always expanded explosively on any animal I ever shot. On small game it just blew them up and on coyote and javelina size critters...but it does make me wonder about the accuracy of jell as a predictor of bullet performance.

Larry, that's what I call common sense, something that's rarely seen on the web. If your field results differ from the lab results then logically one would assume something is different. There are a lot of variables involved when comparing lab results in jell to actual field results on small and medium size game.

...and speaking of explosive impacts on small critters, click here. (http://dogbegone.com/video.html) :eek:

bigfatdave
December 22, 2010, 10:56 PM
Why is there a thread about terminal ballistics of .22wmr stuck in the middle of an analysis of the practicality of the KelTec PMR-30?

You need to stop something quickly not after 30 trigger pulls. Most self defense shooting do not involve firing particularly high round counts. Who said you have to empty the magazine? Most encounters are over after ZERO shots, most of what's left are over after one brief firing, and the rest are determined attackers I'd want a gun in .99 caliber for anyway, 31 rounds doesn't sound so bad when you're dealing with someone who doesn't seem to mind being shot, while the rounds might be small compared to a duty caliber some people can't handle recoil, and some people want a gun that doubles as a trail gun and carry gun.
I wouldn't put it into service as primary carry without some serious testing ... but when KT comes out with a compact version and matching carbine it will be tempting to have everything sharing ammo/mags in a pinch ... might tip the balance over to at least considering it for defensive uses, particularly if we get pistol-optimized .22mag loads (or a new load altogether? .22PMR? .22KTP?)
I wouldn't be surprised to see loads optimized for pistols, after all the silly Judge got pistol loads for .410 on the market.

Girodin
December 23, 2010, 01:45 AM
some people can't handle recoil,

There are rounds that are superior that have very little recoil.

and some people want a gun that doubles as a trail gun and carry gun.

They may want that but it does not mean that it is still an inferior choice for SD. People can do as they like but it doesn't mean its a good idea.

I wouldn't put it into service as primary carry without some serious testing

I wouldn't put it into service as my primary carry gun period, but to each his own.

JR47
December 23, 2010, 05:28 PM
This is actually funny.:D

The little gun isn't advertised as a self-defense gun, although, despite Internet Mathematics, the .22 WMR, from a pistol, will still have the power of a .22 lr. from a rifle. Now, the .22lr in a rifle is a self-defense mechanism that appears to successfully defeat bad guys in the Armed Citizen columns. So, maybe it works better then assumed .

Who really cares what you carry? Or what your personal choices are? They're yours, and not anyone elses. Trying to make them sound important by denigrating another round is pretty useless.

A 30 round .22 WMR pistol is a neat concept. Sort of like a poor man's FN Five-Seven. Whats not to like?

FYI, the average cost of a box of 115 gr. FMJ 9x19 here is about $13.50. The price, as of two hours ago, of a box of Winchester 40gr. Dyna-Point JHP is $7.97. That's hardly "almost as expensive", no matter how you look at it.

Six pages of wordy replies, chock full of opinions presented as fact, and just plain errors. What a place.

amazon shooter
December 23, 2010, 06:53 PM
If someone needs a 30 round magazine for a SD pistol, I think he is living in the wrong part of town, or in the wrong country.

But in any case, they should have at least several magazines taped together so as not to waste time when reloading and the car trunk should be loaded with ammo crates.

seantyler09
December 23, 2010, 08:25 PM
Self defense has a lot to do with confidence in your weapon. If you are afraid of shot placement your reaction could be delayed and boom(well you know what happens then). Have a round you are almost certain that could drop someone, especially if the shot isn't that well placed. I would use a 22 but I am very confident in my use of the round.

bigfatdave
December 23, 2010, 08:49 PM
Who really cares what you carry? Some people seem to be very concerned with the defensive choices of others, but oblivious to the fact that ~95% of the population is at "unarmed" on BFD's patented scale of "unarmed" to "Full auto 10g shotgun with 50-round drum". (that's zero to one hundred points there)

I think the PMR-30 falls at about 35 points on that scale, most duty handguns run in the 50-60 range (both scores assuming skill and some minimal training beyond stationary range shooting) while only long arms and full auto toys break the 80 point barrier.

Is it perfect? Of course not!

CZguy
December 23, 2010, 08:49 PM
Self defense has a lot to do with confidence in your weapon. If you are afraid of shot placement your reaction could be delayed and boom(well you know what happens then). Have a round you are almost certain that could drop someone, especially if the shot isn't that well placed.

I agree, one shot stopping is an important consideration.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii299/badgerone/Shotguns.jpg

Eric0424
December 24, 2010, 12:33 AM
FYI, the average cost of a box of 115 gr. FMJ 9x19 here is about $13.50. The price, as of two hours ago, of a box of Winchester 40gr. Dyna-Point JHP is $7.97. That's hardly "almost as expensive", no matter how you look at it.

If you're going to compare the average price of 9mm to a specific 22-Mag, you're no better than the six pages of opinions you don't seem to care for.

Click here for 9mm (http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/cPath/23_61_118/products_id/430) that's only $0.52 higher per-50 rounds than the Dyna-points. That's exactly what most everybody would call "almost as expensive".

That's hardly "almost as expensive", no matter how you look at it.

I looked at it with more accurate data.

Personally I wouldn't shoot the Dyna-Points or the Bear in my rifles or handguns, but that's just me. People who look for cheap ammo will look for cheap ammo no matter what caliber they're buying.

What a place.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing the last few days. :)

Girodin
December 24, 2010, 03:26 AM
But in any case, they should have at least several magazines taped together

I know you are being sarcastic but I cannot help but laugh at the mental image of a pistol mag that must go in the grip being taped to another one, African rebel AK style.

bigfatdave
December 24, 2010, 10:17 AM
double-sided tape on the baseplate?

You could set them up like 10/22 "trimags" in a star pattern!

amazon shooter
December 24, 2010, 06:02 PM
Forget about magazines taped together "banana style", Puma has a .22 caliber 500 round drum magazine available on internet now.

Wow.....with two of them glued together back to back, you could become a real MALL NINGA.

seantyler09
December 25, 2010, 01:09 PM
Quoted from someone's sig on these forums awhile ago:
"Getting shot in the head from across the street with a .22LR will surely ruin your day"

Granted it kills but I would prefer a 9mm or .45 and when would someone need 31 rounds to stop someone?
Sorry but I disagree, 9mm are a minimal knock down round and are horribly inaccurate. The 45 is on the top of the list. .22 mag is an amazing round that has a lot of hit power and has carry, .22 mag all the way.

bigfatdave
December 25, 2010, 01:56 PM
9mm are a minimal knock down round and are horribly inaccurate. possibly true of ball ammo and a myth

ALL HANDGUNS are lousy for "knockdown" ... "knockdown" is a myth, the kinetic energy is. not. there.

mopar92
December 25, 2010, 02:57 PM
A good point my long time pal and lawyer ( good lawyer kind, though rare )makes... don't carry a modified super whizz bang gun, rifle round shooting gun (this is technically one) for carry. He has done some work for the NRA and so forth. He's been in a lot of self defense cases and always represented the defending person who was always a law abiding citizen. He said jury's really seem to frown on hi capacity guns, rifle rounded pistols (22 mag, short ak/ar 15, etc), heavily modified guns, and defense rounds. I can't say I agree with him or disagree, but I do see how it would look as a liberal jury might see it. He said the hardest cases that he's had were super modified 1911's and 44 magnum, .357 magnum, etc. They frowned on excessive force and purpose built weapons. Not trying to stir the pot, but thats my 2 cents. 31 rounds would look strange that you needed 31 rounds to defend yourself. Not too mention the stray bullets, etc. I'd love that pistol for a trail gun. It has it's place, but not for SD in my opinion.

stolivar
December 25, 2010, 08:29 PM
You don't need 31 rounds to kill someone.... So why are you keep harping on emptying a 30 round mag..... The average self defense shootings are around 3 to 5 rounds. You can use the same argument against a 17 round mag of 9mm.



steve

CZguy
December 26, 2010, 01:27 AM
A good point my long time pal and lawyer ( good lawyer kind, though rare )makes... don't carry a modified super whizz bang gun, rifle round shooting gun (this is technically one) for carry. He has done some work for the NRA and so forth. He's been in a lot of self defense cases and always represented the defending person who was always a law abiding citizen. He said jury's really seem to frown on hi capacity guns, rifle rounded pistols (22 mag, short ak/ar 15, etc), heavily modified guns, and defense rounds. I can't say I agree with him or disagree, but I do see how it would look as a liberal jury might see it. He said the hardest cases that he's had were super modified 1911's and 44 magnum, .357 magnum, etc. They frowned on excessive force and purpose built weapons. Not trying to stir the pot, but thats my 2 cents. 31 rounds would look strange that you needed 31 rounds to defend yourself. Not too mention the stray bullets, etc. I'd love that pistol for a trail gun. It has it's place, but not for SD in my opinion.

mopar92, Makes a good argument in the above post

It might make an interesting kit gun though. ;)

Kachok
December 26, 2010, 01:50 AM
I am not a huge fan or the 22 magnum for self defence but I will say that I would take that over a .25 auto anyday for a superlight kicking gun.

Prosser
December 26, 2010, 03:29 AM
I used to have a Mac 10, actually a variety of them, in 9MM and 45 ACP with 32 round clips under my pillow. In the place in Kali I lived, if I ever had to use them, I would probably have been crucified.

That was 1980, and, I was living in a house owned by the San Jose DA. Good Lord, I was an ignorant, innocent at the time...

Now, your post says you live in TEXAS. I'd check what your local DA and police carry, how SD cases have gone in your county and area, and, I'd REALLY know the law.
As I understand it, in Texas, if someone comes into your home, you can shoot them with
anything that doesn't harm someone a couple of miles away, anywhere short of a 105MM canon, and, you are legally justified, with the Texas Castle law. Your case law may vary, so, either ask your DA, ask a defense attorney, or hire one, PRIOR to having to shoot your gun. Gangs are also at issue, and, with that being the case, a high capacity gun has some major points for it.

Laf'n'Larry
December 26, 2010, 12:33 PM
As I understand it, in Texas, if someone comes into your home, you can shoot them with
anything that doesn't harm someone a couple of miles away, anywhere short of a 105MM canon, and, you are legally justified, with the Texas Castle law.

Though new and barely tested the castle law does seem to be a powerful legal defense in cases where the home owner or permanent resident has found it necessary to use force to protect life and [B]property[/B. For those that may not know, Texas law used to be a nightmare for the homeowner, because you were only allowed to use deadly force if it was obvious that you or someone else was under immediate physical threat. That usually meant that you would be charged unless the BG was inside the home and brandishing a weapon or acting in a menacing manner. Forget about protecting your property. If someone was in the process and you might get by with showing a firearm to deter him, but if you actually fired, you would have been charged.

Castle law also covers transporting a firearm in your car. It permits ordinary citizens (no handgun license) to transport. Before castle it was unlawful to transport with exceptions for trips to the range, hunting and certain overnight trips. Legally, since you weren't allowed to transport, you could be prosecuted if you defended yourself from a BG. Under the new law your car is part of your castle and you are permitted to transport in your vehicle and if SD is necessary you should be charged with unlawfully transporting.

If nothing else the castle law has reduced the DA's workload because he no longer has to prosecute honest people for defending themselves and their property. As they say on TV the shooting still has to be "righteous". You still can't shoot your neighbor being a Redskins fan :barf: and obnoxiously aggressive drivers :cuss: are still off limits.

As to what firearm to use at home, the 12 gauge still gets my vote, although I must admit the 105mm does have a certain appeal, especially if we're invaded by gangs of Oklahoma Sooners. :D

Lars,

PS: If you're state doesn't have a castle law, I think you should get one.

Prosser
December 26, 2010, 06:03 PM
Lars:

I was thinking what I'd like to use if I lived on the Mexican Border, and was having problems
with Mexican gangs invading/smuggling things through my property, and threatening my house.

Over-penetration would be a concern:D, until the shell hits something solid, like Mexico.;)
P

JR47
December 26, 2010, 08:03 PM
f you're going to compare the average price of 9mm to a specific 22-Mag, you're no better than the six pages of opinions you don't seem to care or.


FYI, the average cost of a box of 115 gr. FMJ 9x19 here is about $13.50.

I would think that the word HERE indicates just that, locally. That includes Federal American Eagle, S&B, Remington UMC, and Winchester Q loads. All are equivalent, brass-cased, loads. The cheapest was $13.50, with several a couple of cents higher, others a nickle or so lower.


That's hardly "almost as expensive", no matter how you look at it.
I looked at it with more accurate data.

Perhaps a little reading comprehension would help. Locally means just that.

Personally I wouldn't shoot the Dyna-Points or the Bear in my rifles or handguns, but that's just me. People who look for cheap ammo will look for cheap ammo no matter what caliber they're buying.

Personally, who cares about a single opinion? Especially without any facts provided. Going from Brand bashing in guns to ammo still stinks the same.

By the way, if you're looking at Internet deals:

Fiocchi 22 Rimfire Ammunition 22WMB, 22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire, Jacketed Hollow Point, 40 GR, 1910 fps, 50 Rd/bx


(1 Reviews) $8.24

10+ $7.83 ea.

Able Ammo.

This is a much better ammo than Brown Bear.

Happy Holidays

Eric0424
December 27, 2010, 10:54 PM
if you're going to compare the average price of 9mm to a specific 22-Mag, you're no better than the six pages of opinions you don't seem to care or.

That still holds true no matter how angry you get, how inaccurate/misleading your information is or where you live. Had you compared the average or cheapest price of both 22-mag and 9mm you wouldn't be reading this post right now and I wouldn't have pointed out your mistake earlier.

the average cost of a box of 115 gr. FMJ 9x19 here is about $13.50.

...The cheapest was $13.50, with several a couple of cents higher, others a nickle or so lower.

How is "a nickel or so lower" not cheaper than $13.50?? If the cheapest 9mm in your area is $13.50, then it can't be the average price and there can't be "others a nickel or so lower".

Are you trying to say the average price of the cheap 9mm in your area is about $13.50 per-50 rounds?? That would make more sense, but still wouldn't be a fair comparison to the price of a specific 22-mag.

Perhaps a little reading comprehension would help. Locally means just that.

Yeah, I missed the word "here" probably because I was thinking "you can't compare the average price of item "A" to the lowest price of item "B"" as I was reading the rest of your post, but for what ever reason I missed it. However, you should consider the fact that your local prices are not the same as ammo prices across the country and here the cheap 22-mag is only a dollar or less lower than the cheap 9mm the last time I looked at local ammo prices.

"People who look for cheap ammo will look for cheap ammo no matter what caliber they're buying."

That includes the web, I really don't care where "here" is, I'm sure most everybody reading this has access to a web connection. We're not talking about quality ammunition, just the cheapest stuff a person can find whether it's locally or online.

Especially without any facts provided. Going from Brand bashing in guns to ammo...

If you wanted some "facts provided" you should have asked, getting upset and hostile isn't going to get you any information. Since you've decided bring up me bashing gun brands. It's obvious you've read just enough of my posts on other forums to get offended, get your feelings hurt or you're basing your opinion of me on second hand information and lies from others on a different forum who can't handle a negative opinion based on factual, first-hand knowledge. But you failed to read any further, read for yourself or didn't bother to ask why I have my opinion on the aforementioned weapon. Which is exactly what has happened here regrading the ammo you seem to favor. If you had bothered to read further, read for yourself or simply ask me directly, the information on why I dislike this weapon would have been provided to you.

If you wanted to know why I won't shoot a particular brand or type of ammo you should have asked. If you wanted to know why I dislike a particular weapon you should have read the posts yourself instead of relying on the lies and assumptions of others looking to protect their pet weapon.

"Personally I wouldn't shoot the Dyna-Points or the Bear in my rifles or handguns, but that's just me."

That statement seems pretty clear to me. "Personally I...my...just me...". I never said you nor anyone else should not use the ammo. I didn't post any derogatory or insulting remarks regarding those brands of ammo. You really need to learn the what "bashing" is before you start whining and crying about your favorite products not being liked or used by everyone in the firearms industry.

You're no better the blind-to-the-cracks witness fans/owners who refuse to accept and/or try to hide the proven, fatal flaw some of those weapons have had. Telling someone I won't buy, shoot, own or recommend product X isn't "brand bashing", it's just stating a fact. If you/they would like to know why you/they should ask or, in the case of this particular gun brand, just actually read my posts on the subject, instead of being hurt or offended by someone not loving the same product as you/them. You and the witness faithful need to show a little backbone and deal with the fact that your pet products are not for everyone and have their problems. If someone doesn't like your favorite brand of whatever they have just as much right as you do to express their opinion and first hand experience with said product.

If you can't handle comments like "I prefer brand X" or "I won't shoot ammo Y" or "weapon Z has known issues" then you should stay off the web.

By the way, if you're looking at Internet deals:

This is a much better ammo than Brown Bear.

You can't possibly think I would consider anything you have to say accurate, honest or in my best interest. Save your suggestions and advice for someone else.

This is a much better ammo than Brown Bear.

Careful, by your standards you're "brand bashing" without any facts to support it, making you just as evil as you're wrongly accusing me of being. :scrutiny: ...and didn't I just say I don't shoot Bear ammunition in my firearms??

Personally, who cares about a single opinion?

Care to re-think that comment while you're spewing your "single opinion" all over the web?? It's quite obvious you care about mine more than you'll admit, but with you not having respect for the opinions of others, I won't waist my time reading yours anymore.

DEAHEAT
January 1, 2011, 09:27 AM
Weight fully loaded, approximate, 19.6 ounces

31 rounds i have to say i have always loved kel-tec since i got a sub2000 when i was about 15. I was very interested in the PMR-30 but didn't appeal to me as a main carry gun i'm looking at getting a s&w 637 as a off duty to my m&p 9c but $506 is pricey and only for 5 shot. 31 for around 300 sounds way better and 19.6 ounces with a thumb safety it wouldn't be bad at all, also i would be able to practice and turn heads at the range once again

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 1, 2011, 09:32 AM
Sorry but I disagree, 9mm are a minimal knock down round and are horribly inaccurate. The 45 is on the top of the list. .22 mag is an amazing round that has a lot of hit power and has carry, .22 mag all the way.


I'm sorry but horribly innaccurate? When compared to a Cheytac Military rifle than yes.
.22 magnum does not match 9mm in power.

natman
January 1, 2011, 12:33 PM
Sorry but I disagree, 9mm are a minimal knock down round and are horribly inaccurate. The 45 is on the top of the list. .22 mag is an amazing round that has a lot of hit power and has carry, .22 mag all the way.

I don't know where you got these ideas, but they're not true. The 9mm is not "horribly inaccurate". It is considerably more powerful than the 22 mag from a pistol (Muzzle energy in bold):

22 Win. Mag. RF 40 HP 1410 177
9mm Luger 124 JHP 1150 367


http://www.handgunsmag.com/ballistics/22_win_mag_rim_handgun.html
http://www.handgunsmag.com/ballistics/9mm_luger_9x19mm.html

The 45 is a top defense round. At least that's right.

stolivar
January 1, 2011, 02:02 PM
that the rf is measured at 50 yard and all other ammo does not say this.'

so apples to oranges. not a fair comparison.




steve

1911austin
January 7, 2011, 11:03 AM
Sorry but I disagree, 9mm are a minimal knock down round and are horribly inaccurate. The 45 is on the top of the list. .22 mag is an amazing round that has a lot of hit power and has carry, .22 mag all the way.

Did you learn this from playing video games?

Walt Sherrill
January 7, 2011, 10:25 PM
The idea that you can get the majority of 30 .22 magnum rounds into a target assumes 1) that you'll have TIME to fire that many shots, and 2) that you're that good a shooter, against a moving target.

In most domestic self-defense confrontations, it's generally quick, up close, and with just a few rounds being shot. (Often from little more than a few feet away.)

If you're a good-enough shooter to get a bunch of .22 magnum rounds on target quickly, I think you'd be far better off putting fewer, bigger rounds into an attacker, more quickly. The idea is to minimize the risk and end the transaction -- and while .22 magnum rounds aren't to be sneered at, they just don't have the ability to disable or damage an opponent as well as a larger caliber.

That doesn't mean I don't want one of those new Kel-Tecs, though. <grin>

Elmer
January 7, 2011, 10:29 PM
Sorry but I disagree, 9mm are a minimal knock down round and are horribly inaccurate. The 45 is on the top of the list. .22 mag is an amazing round that has a lot of hit power and has carry, .22 mag all the way.

Funnier than Letterman.......

gym
April 27, 2011, 10:35 PM
You are never going to shoot 30 rounds in a self defense senario. Unless you are in a movie with james cahn and Bennisio del toro. I think it was "the way of the gun", but seiouslly, gunfights are over in 3 seconds unless there are multiple gunmen and cover. I would rather have my 9,40, or 45, going to the bad guys chest than any 22 with 100 rounds in it. They only matter if everyone misses and you have more ammo, silly, what good is it? maybe if they put a bumpfire stock on it like just came out for ar's, but that would be illegal on a handgun. My gunstore guy bought 5 of those stocks at $450.00 a pop. If you could legally put a similar gizmo on that keltek and make those 30 rounds come out in a second and a half, then it might be something to consider. otherwise it's just a gimmick. Earp said fast is good but acccurate is better.

all_tied_up
April 28, 2011, 02:14 AM
To avoid excessive force only use the number of rounds you need to take down the bad guy, permanetly....as for when you would need 30 rounds simply think about a gang situation or multiple "perps". My daughter and grand daughter were threatend by an ex boyfriend who claimed he would take down our entire family if she ended their (abusive) relationship. She did and now lives with myself and wife in a secured complex with 24 hour security guards.

In addition to the home security I carry a 9mm with 10 rounds and two back up clips.....After doing some research on the .22 Magnum with 30 rounds and a second clip I am burying one for my wife and daughter as well as my self. All because some jerk can't handle a break up and is abusive and controlling. He even told the judge at a hearing for a restaining order that it was only a "misdeamanor" if he broke it and he was going to do "what he wanted". So be prepared and watch out for the nut or groups of nuts (cowards)that run together.

RevolvingGarbage
April 28, 2011, 05:04 PM
I think it odd that most people can easily rationalize 15-17 rounds of 9mm, and a few even think its absurd to pack less on board due to the probability of multiple aggressors Does it not follow that a pistol with 30 rounds on board of smaller rounds that still meet FBI requirements for projectile penetration would be a legitimate self defense tool?

Drail
April 28, 2011, 07:50 PM
31 rounds of .22 sounds like a great idea if you plan on missing A LOT.

dirtykid
April 28, 2011, 08:55 PM
I wrapped my paws around 1-of these and i'd say no.
Maybe if the gun didnt feel like my sons air-soft pistol i would feel more confident about it.
I wouldnt trust the gun.the bullet however is probaly powerfull enough to put a hitch in the bad-guys step but couldnt imagine the percussion of shooting a 22-mag indoors :eek:

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