battery with a skateboard.


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eatatjoes
December 18, 2003, 02:18 PM
some of you may have seen the video floating around the web that shows a violent beating given with a skateboard. i don't wish to post the video without clearence from a mod so i won't at this time.

to summarize what is seen: there is a young man in what looks like a fairly busy section of street messing around on his skateboard. he starts by asking people walking by to get on his board and then procedes to push it out from under them, resulting is quite a nasty fall.

after the second time he does this he throws his skateboard at a passing car, appearing to hit the roof. the young lady driving gets out and demands an i.d. so she may be able to receive compensation for damages that may have occured.

he refuses to show i.d. and the video cuts to a few minutes later. an older man approaches the skater and attempts to put him in a headlock, he misses and the skater draws up his skateboard as if to swing it and hit the older man in the head. the older man raises his hands and they argue for a few seconds, all the while the skater is feigning a swing with the board.

they continue to argue when the skater swings his board, hitting the older man in the head and knocking him to the ground. the swing is fairly hard and a solid *thwack* is heard on the tape. the older man attempts to get up and is hit in the head again, he is then kicked in the face and finally hit in the head again, all while he is on the ground. the skater than proceeds to skate away.

my question is this: at what point would it have been permissible to draw a firearm if he was carrying? also would it have been permissible to draw a firearm if you were a member of the crowd(there was quite a large crowd) in an attempt to stop what was happening?

this assumes the older man or member of the crowd had a valid CCW permit.

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schadenfreude
December 18, 2003, 02:27 PM
The man shouldn't have been in that situation. He should have run away and called the police.

When the old man was kicked on the ground you might have a resaonable fear that the man's life was in danger if you were in the crowd. But it's still a difficult shoot.

I think you would have a hell of a time convincing a jury that a shoot was legit if you were the old man or a bystander. I would think there was way too much time to flee.

I think if you were a bystander and you shot the guy with the skateboard everyone would want to know why you didn't tackle him? He didn't have a deadly weapon (in the eyes of many). It's a tough one.

outfieldjack
December 18, 2003, 02:29 PM
If I came upon the situation while the skater was hitting the old man I would tell him to stop. If he hit him again I would then "draw down" on the skater and tell him if he contiues to attack the old man I will do what is necessary to defend the old man. HOPEFULLY the punk will get the idea. If he were to hit him a third time :confused: :confused: :confused:

I would either have to backup my promise or try to "manhandle" him myself. Problem would be where to put my .357 while doing this. I dunno, maybe I would shoot if it appeared he was putting the old man in a "life threating" position.

Jack

spacemanspiff
December 18, 2003, 02:32 PM
depends on your states laws regarding when deadly force is 'justifiable'.
if i was witnessing that going on, i'd draw down on the person as soon as they endangered another persons safety. falling off a skateboard to the ground could very well cripple a person or leave them with broken bones. threatening to hit someone with a skateboard like a baseball bat is very serious.

theres a good chance that idiot would have been killed if a person like myself was being attacked or witnessed such an attack.


when i was a teenager, i didnt skateboad. i rollerbladed. for some reason skaters hated bladers and in some places they would viciously attack rollerbladers, hitting them like they did in the account you posted. its assault with a deadly weapon as far as i'm concerned.
back in the day i was faster than anyone on a skateboard, and often could hold my own against someone on a bike. that was my goal as i bladed, to overtake everyone ahead of me on the bike trails. and i wasnt even the fastest blader, i knew several who left me in the dust, and on flat open roads could get up to 25-30 mph. i left many a parking garage attendant out of breath trying to catch me.

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
December 18, 2003, 02:46 PM
Here in Dallas the DA has determined that water is a deadly weapon.

I don't think you'd have much argument about the use of deadly force to whap this sk8r d00d if it happened here.

Regards,
Rabbit.

Sportcat
December 18, 2003, 03:07 PM
I believe in SC a CWP holder can defend another person's life if they are in danger.

rock jock
December 18, 2003, 03:09 PM
The question here is did the victim do anything to make the sitation worse, i.e., put himself unnecessarily in danger and by doing so, contribute to his own assault? If so, use of deadly force would be a stretch. IMO, the victim in this case was perfectly justified in exiting his vehicle and observing the skater at a safe distance while he called the police WITHOUT confronting him. This would allow the victim to rely information real-time to LE via the dispatcher. I would also say that although the skater up to that point had demonstrated himself to be a total idiot, he had not done anything that would lead a reasonable person to believe they were entering a dangerous confrontation. Now, all that having been said, if the skater initiated a confrontation while the victim is waiting on police, the victim should have retreated to safety. If the victim were trapped however, he would be justified in using deadly force. All my own opinion.

ceetee
December 18, 2003, 04:30 PM
The girl driver should have called LE as soon as he refused to make an effort to fix the damage done to her car. I can see getting out of the car first, and saying, "Hey! You gotta fix this!"

Then she shoulda stayed there until LEO's arrived. From this story, I'm not sure what the older man was trying to accomplish... was he defending the girl? Or just trying to prove a point? Either way, nobody was really being assaulted or battered until he tried to put the guy into a head lock.

If the girl didn't call LE, then he should have. Regardless, I can't see threatening the younger guy with deadly force until such time as he was battering the older guy beyond that which would be necessary for self-defense (against the headlock).

Balog
December 18, 2003, 05:01 PM
I'd say reapeatedly kicking someone in the head and hitting them w/ a deadly weapon after they no longer pose a threat is entirely unjustified. If you think a skateboard isn't a deadly weapon you've obviously never been smacked w/ one.

45R
December 18, 2003, 05:10 PM
Thats what we call a poor outcome in the medical profession. Its too bad someone didnt help the older gentleman out.

mwithers72
December 18, 2003, 05:19 PM
nobody was really being assaulted or battered until he tried to put the guy into a head lock.


I would say that some people were being battered.


he starts by asking people walking by to get on his board and then procedes to push it out from under them, resulting is quite a nasty fall.


I dont know why this dumb a$$ got away with it for as long as he did. why didnt somebody kick his a$$. I mean come on if that happened to anyone on this board do you not think that there would be some a$$ kicking going on.


( ok i will no longer use a$$ for the rest of the day I think that I used my limit on this post.....sorry)

zahc
December 18, 2003, 05:19 PM
when i was a teenager, i didnt skateboad. i rollerbladed. for some reason skaters hated bladers and in some places they would viciously attack rollerbladers, hitting them like they did in the account you posted.

Unfortunately I can vouch for how rollerbladers are hated. I ride little bikes, skaters sometime don't get along with us either and it can be very intimdating being a lone biker in a ghetto park with a ten foot fence around it to keep bikes out (climb over) and about 20 skateboarders giving off bad vibes. Skateboards make pretty good weapons.

I'm interested in more opinions on lethal force in the original scenario.

eatatjoes
December 18, 2003, 05:21 PM
here is the video. (http://69.28.156.67/a65/o1/portal/2481847_200.asf)

you should be able to get a better handle on what happened after viewing it than reading my somewhat lacking sysnopsis.

Goet
December 18, 2003, 05:40 PM
I just saw the video.



I would have shot the punk till the mag was empty.

Balog
December 18, 2003, 05:40 PM
Note: I don't have sound on this PC, so I'm going off video solely.
1. That doesn't look like the old(er) fellow tried to put him in a headlock.
2. Deadly force would IMHO have been justified from the first swing. The skater was a credible threat to kill or maim the old(er) fellow.

TheeBadOne
December 18, 2003, 05:41 PM
After viewing the video, it's as the 1st post said, "An older man", not and "old man". He looks pretty young himself, 20ish.

Balog
December 18, 2003, 05:42 PM
Goet: Mormon Labe! That's priceless!

Matt G
December 18, 2003, 05:51 PM
Having just seen that video footage, I'm angry. I'm hot. I'm really upset.

Mr. Skateboard, in this instance, needs a good old-fashioned butt-whoopin'. BTW, the older fellow isn't an "old man," he's probably just in his late thirties or so.

Why didn't the girl call 911? Why didn't the dude? Were they acquainances? Dunno. Who took this footage?

Why didn't anyone stop this idiot from beating a man on the ground with a board?

These questions stand. That said, I don't see this as a "shoot" situation-- I see it as a "draw, and get other fellow to safety" situation.

Not to say that being swung at with a skateboard isn't deadly:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/66869_skate17ww.shtml
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GenesBMX/message/2887

TarpleyG
December 18, 2003, 06:47 PM
Had I been the "old guy" and still had the wherewithal to draw and maintain myself in an upright position, I would have done so. If the skateboarder came again, I would have fired.

Had I been a bystander, I would have drawn and gotten the "old guy" the hell outa there and promptly called the police.

The second scenario would also depend on where in the crowd I was and opportunity.

GT

spacemanspiff
December 18, 2003, 06:47 PM
as far as i'm concerned, i'd have shot until empty.

looked like it was some dumbbutt imitating some "jack@ss" stunts. he obviously had his friends there to video tape it and 'ohhh' and 'ahhh' about how tough he is.

attack someone with a 2x4, and you'll likely be charged with 'assault with a deadly weapon'. skateboard should fall in the same category when used as a weapon.

especially since he kept returning to hit/kick the guy who was dazed from the first hit.

shoot until empty.

outfieldjack
December 18, 2003, 08:05 PM
I would have run in with my gun drawn.... IF, after I was in between them, the skater had made another threating move toward me or the "older man", I would have shot COM and then asked for the video for my defense.

Thumper
December 18, 2003, 08:26 PM
I've seen the video. I would have cheerfully beat the dog s*** out of the guy.

eatatjoes
December 18, 2003, 10:16 PM
what really bothered me was that not a single person even attempted to stop it in any way. even though it was over in a few seconds there were people close enough that after the first blow someone could have been able to close the distance and prevent the further attacks.

ceetee
December 18, 2003, 10:24 PM
After seeing the video... Boy that's a toughie... Anybody else see the girl who was supposed to be so mad at the sk8boarder give the peace sign as he rode down her hatchback?

And with all the other people around, it's most likely that as soon as you get involved, this guy's friends will swarm on you like cockroaches on a Snickers Bar the instant the light's turned off...

1. Yes, dial 911 the instant you see trouble start. IMO, those guys who got kicked off the sk8board looked like acquaintances (if not friends) of the jerk's who deserved a bruise or two for taking part in this ridiculous thing...

2. If the thing turned serious before LE arrived, yes, step in. First, step in unarmed, and try to de-escalate the issue. If that doesn't work, show your weapon and explain how you're feeling threatened with violence, and if the threat doesn't drop the sk8board and lie down peacefully, he might end up taking a dirt nap.

3. Use deadly force as a last resort. This is exactly why anybody who carries a firearm should also carry some form of kick-??? non-lethal self-defense also (I'm thinking here of the LEO-type 17% O.C. spray...)

Realize that from the instant you decide to step in every action you take will be second-guessed ninety times, by people who wouldn't know a real threat if it came up and punched 'em in the nose.

Think globally, act locally... and tactically...

Prodigalshooter
December 18, 2003, 11:11 PM
Someone should have tackled that guy from behind and kicked his butt, he certainly deserved it.

Dionysusigma
December 19, 2003, 12:55 AM
Desert Eagle. 44 mag. 4 COM, 3 to head, 2 to skateboard itself. Reload as necessary. :banghead: :cuss: :mad: :fire:

I don't mind JackA$$ because that's just a bunch of stupid people that (most of the time... Bam Margera's parents not included) only do the dumb s*** to each other, but this is uncalled for. I've seen too much of this in real life. The fact that someone was videotaping it makes it all the more f***ing stupid. I really and truly apologize for the language, but this... this is just awful.

Realistically? Call the police first, then OC spray the faces of the uber-jerk and the cameraman. Take the tape as evidence. Draw gun just in case. If possible, restrain them. Wait for police.

natedog
December 19, 2003, 01:26 AM
Depends on the area. If it wear me, I feel a warning/flash is appropriate if he advances on you with the skateboard. Once the board is swung, gun is out, safety off, low ready. Continued action would result in magazine being emptied.

Aikibiker
December 19, 2003, 04:00 AM
I can't get the streaming video to work right. It plays part of the way then all I get is sound. Can anyone post it as an MPEG that can be downloaded whole before playing?

From what has been posted so far:

If I was a bystander. I wouldn't draw unless the "older man" was bleeding heavily or I could see bones sticking out. In that case the punk gets 2 shots COM and I take a position over the victim to guard him from further harm and to make sure I have a witness and evidence on my side when the cops get there. If the victim could survive without my use of immediate lethal force I would try to get around behind the punk and blind side him. He looked kind of skinny I could probably just grab him up and toss him in a simple suplex. If I wanted to be fancy I know a lot of jointlocks and Aikido throws. Or a good stiff elbow to the face is always a crowd pleaser.

If I for some reason took on the role of the "older man" and decided to confront the punk I would try to get real close to him, nose to nose almost, to negate the advantage the skate board gave him. Then I would try to put him down and get my knee in his back to pin and my gun hand free if I had to deal with his friends. That would the plan. How well it would work is up to luck and Mr. Murphy. Florida has citizen's arrest, but I wouldn't want to go through the attendant hassle just because some girl’s car has a dent in it. I haven't seen the whole video, did the punk threaten the lady at all?

If I got hit and was down with the punk taking swings at my head. I would try to move on the ground so I was on my back with my legs toward the punk to use as a shield while I drew my pistol.

These are vague plans that come from what little info I have. Remember how long plans last once combat starts.

Hal
December 19, 2003, 07:37 AM
WARNING ADULT CONTENT

The original of this clip can be found at IFILM Uncensored - -> Viral videos. It's titled Skateboard Punk

seeker_two
December 19, 2003, 08:07 AM
1. Call 911. Leave your name w/ the operator.
2. When beating begins, pepper spray the punk.
3. Draw only if other weapons brought into play by ANYONE.
4. When cops arrive, hold out for your lawyer.
5. Sue everybody.

It's the American way...:evil:

c_yeager
December 19, 2003, 08:39 AM
What bugs me most is that there was at least ONE witness that saw the whole thing escalate in a predictable fashion from pranks to a major assault and did nothing about it. Isnt there some kind of law about having to at least PRETEND to render assistance in one form or another?

Joe Demko
December 19, 2003, 09:31 AM
In uniform: take the troubled youth into custody. How gently that is accomplished would be directly proportionate to how cooperative he is. Regardless, he would be wearing cuffs and sitting in the back seat.

Out of uniform: (after his assault on the older fellow) beat that fool like a gong. My gf gave me one of those Cold Steel walking sticks for Xmas that would be perfect for the task. I'd have no moral qualms about striking the little cretin from behind as an opener. Pepper spray and/or shoot anybody who wants to rush to his defense. There's right and there's wrong and then there's the folks who just seem to go through life begging for an old fashioned beating. This youngster would seem to be one of them.

DF357
December 19, 2003, 03:56 PM
"I'd say reapeatedly kicking someone in the head and hitting them w/ a deadly weapon after they no longer pose a threat is entirely unjustified."


Ask the guy in Fla that shot at the 3 guys (wounding one) for kicking his old neighbor friend repeatedly in the head.

He might tell you not to do it.

mwithers72
December 19, 2003, 05:24 PM
Anybody else see the girl who was supposed to be so mad at the sk8boarder give the peace sign as he rode down her hatchback?


nope it was a different person. I have never seen a chey cavaler (sp??) that cost $40,000.00. that price is what she told him when she was talking to him trying to get his id.

I think that her car was the one pulling into the parking lot after he tosed his board down the road. I actualy think that she ran over it after the last person he pushed off sent it into the road.


Ask the guy in Fla that shot at the 3 guys (wounding one) for kicking his old neighbor friend repeatedly in the head.

He might tell you not to do it.



sad but true :(

but also a bit different. in that case they were not useing a wood sk8
board

edit: to ad the last line.

Amish_Bill
December 19, 2003, 05:36 PM
This is why I carry a keychain that can clear a small restaurant...
(chemically)

Some situations require a response, but do not justify an all-out escalation.

This whole thread is sounding like a mass - "Man with a Hammer" party.

(To a man with only a hammer, all problems look like nails.)

Balog
December 19, 2003, 05:49 PM
I think repeatedly striking a helpless (dazed) person with a deadly weapon is about as good a "nail" as you could ask for.

Amish_Bill
December 19, 2003, 06:07 PM
Yeah.... but with no other response available, do you have to set back and wait for the other guy to escalate the matter to a level more suiting of the tool at hand? Having the proper tools lets you defuse the situation at whatever level you find it.

(note that the situation did not Start with gratuitous smiting upon the pate)

carpettbaggerr
December 19, 2003, 06:49 PM
Not an old guy, not even an "older" guy. Two youngish guys getting in a pi$$ing contest. Skateboarder deserved an asskicking. Other guy wasn't up to the task. While a skateboard could be a deadly weapon, if you shot him, I'm sure you'd be arrested and have to go to trial.

If I was there, I'd use my pepperspray, this is just why I carry it. Except I wouldn't be there. Bunch of young drunk guys trying to get in trouble, and I wouldn't be there to oblige them. Call the cops and leave the area.

spacemanspiff
December 19, 2003, 08:04 PM
i guarantee you that if the skateboarder had even attemped to hit a LEO with the board so unexpectedly, the boarder would have a couple extra breathing holes, and it would be called a 'good shoot'.


thats no slam on LEO's, but rather upon the system that says their actions are more righteous than that of a lowly civilian.

Phil in Seattle
December 20, 2003, 12:26 AM
A skateboard is a deadly weapon.

The skateboarders even have their very own lingo for beating someone with a board.

"So while Andrews tried to steady himself, Strano came from behind and trucked him with "all his might" in the back of the head. (To "truck" someone is to strike the person with one of the metal trucks on the underside of a skateboard.) "

http://www.thestranger.com/2003-01-09/feature.html

synoptic
December 20, 2003, 12:45 AM
It seems that, other than the idiots agreeing to ride his board, noone was physically getting hurt until the second guy came in. It also seems the second guy initiated the physical contact. This is where the problem is. Had he been acting in defence of a third party using only force and the situation escalated as it did you could very well shoot the boarder and claim self defense. But since he is not acting in the defense of a thrid party the man getting hit has no claims to self defense until he "abandons the situation". After his failed headlock attempt he did start to walk away, but convincing a DA and a Jury that that is an abandonment may be difficult. Anyways, the man getting hit not having the claim of self defense means you probably don't have the ability to defend him using deadly force. I'd like to think that had any of us been there the cops would have been called long before the beating started and the situation would have quickly been defused.

**Note, this abandonment stuff is what is taught in the Texas CHL class and will vary from state to state

Psssniper
December 20, 2003, 10:53 AM
SO most of us would draw down and rush in and save the day??
What about the skateboarders other friends that are with him??
How are you going to handle 2 or 3 or 4 maybe 10 guys??

kernal_panic
December 20, 2003, 11:38 AM
qouteing the gambler from magifcent 7:


" i only have 2 bullets i'll let ya'll discuss it amoungst yourselfs which one of you dies"

i don't need 10 bullets to control a crowd all i need is each individual wanting to live.

Edward429451
December 20, 2003, 12:51 PM
I never did see the video, only the sound came through...:confused:

Goet
December 20, 2003, 02:15 PM
How are you going to handle 2 or 3 or 4 maybe 10 guys??

The usual gang mentaility prevails. When one gets in deep, the others bail.


You don't really think someone ELSE would grab their skateboard and chase an armed man?

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