[Nightcrawler]

Okay, from what I'm told from our Alaskan members, in order to defend against bears, you need a weapon that's powerful and can be brought into play quickly. Fast follow-up shots may be important as well.

Currently, the only autoloading rifle I know of that's suited for such things is the Browning BAR, which is available in powerful cartridges like 7mm Rem Mag.

In any case, I was thinking that maybe something entirely different would be in order.

Let's start with the VEPR rifle, from MOLOT of Russia. I was going to post a pic of it, but it came out huge, and not all of our members are on DSL.

It's based on the heavy, sturdy RPK receiver, and is why these guns weigh in at nine pounds.

First, scale it up. Make a large, long action version of this weapon, and chamber it in .45-70, .338 Win Mag, 7mm Rem Mag, and others. Maybe those new short magnums would be easier to fit in this gun (they did it with a FAL).

The barrel is already chrome lined and hammer forged. If the parkerizing isn't weather resistant enough for Alaska, hard chrome the whole thing, or give it one of those polymer coatings. Replace the wood with synthetic stocks with big cushy recoil pads.

It'd have five and ten round box magazines. 10+1 shots of .338 Win Mag at your disposal ought to get the job done. Will it be as accurate as a bolt gun? No, but most bear attacks happen up close and personal, and you need to get a shot off fast.

If the AK safety slows the Alaskan guide down too much, base the weapon on the Super VEPR instead!

http://www.robarm.com/images/Super_w_Vomz_copy.jpg

Easier to use shotgun style safety, different magazine release, and has a detachable scope rail for the mounting of standard rings (though really, I like the AK side bracket mounts).

Weight might be a problem, as these guns woudl have to be solid to stand up to the poweful rounds they'd be chambered for. Recoil buffers would be a must.

In any case, even if it wouldn't make a great bear rifle, I think a 10+1 AK in .45-70 and .338 would just be really cool to have. :cool:

[iamkris]

I can't imagine more perfect bear medicine than the Marlin 1895GS -- stainless, lever action (fast followup shots), ultimately reliable (proven Marlin action), light (6.75 lbs), handy (18.5" barrel), and plenty powerful (4+1 rounds of .45-70).

There's a guy (forget his name but Jeff Cooper refers to him a lot) who smiths a version of this that converts it into a breakdown, smooths the action and adds a low power scope. Word is that a lot of bush pilots carry around one in their plane.

I think you perscription has already been filled...

[gun-fucious]

Tony Rumore's .458 SOCOM Sledgehammer would be quite fun:
http://www.tromix.com/Welcome.htm

the Alaskan Co-pilot by WWG is the standard:
http://www.wildwestguns.com/CoPilot_And_Guide_Rifles/copilot_and_guide_rifles.html

[jem375]

Man, sure lot of bear attacks these days..........

[Nightcrawler]

Yeah, but I like the idea of a semiauto in this role. 'Sides, you can't make tube-fed levergun in .338 or 7mm Rem Mag. I hear that these rounds are often used up in Alaska where they have really big, really mean bears.

[Dr.Rob]

Bear defense rifle??

How about the one you are carrying in your hands while hunting whatever ELSE it is you are hunting, like sitka deer or caribou??

How about the same rifle you'd pick to HUNT a big nasty bear? Like a guide gun or 375 H&H on a slicked up mauser action?

I had some friends of friends go surf kayaking in Alaska a few years back. They were asked by the guy issuing their permits "what kind of shotgun are you bringing?" At the time they had no idea why they might have needed a shotgun. :rolleyes: After a lengthy explanation of coastal bears, the kayakers spent a few weeks actually learning how to use the shotgun (shooting clays, etc) As it turns out they got lucky. Halfway through their trip, a bear tried to get into their tent on the beach. They had stowed the shotgun between them, and managed to get it into play and empty it through the tent wall at the bear. The next morning a coast guard boat spotted them repairing their tent and sent a Zodiac out to assist them . They explained that a bear had tried to get them. (Said bear was dead 200 yards or so away on the beach full of buckshot) When asked for assistance, the kayakers only requested two things: some nylon thread to repair the tent, and more shotgun shells as they had fired all five they brought.

Ok so the story is anecdotal. But as far as I know its true. The kayakers were given ten rounds of buckshot and they finished their trip. (me.. i might have cried all the way home to mommy after a bear tried to eat me). I'm not sure exactly WHAT part of alaska, if it was a brown or black or grizzly, nor the size of the bear, all I know is the had a Remington shotgun in 12 ga. with buckshot.

And according to Alaska kayak-permit guys, and Kieth Rogan, and many others, a light and handy 12 bore ought to do the trick (though I'd load it with slugs).

So before you go blasting up the woods with a .338 semi-auto AK.. maybe you really should assess your relative bear threat level.. like are you going kayaking in Kodiak?

My 2¢


:scrutiny:

[sixgun_symphony]

Bears are attacking enmasse?

Yup, the bears are raising an army and they are being trained by the Chinese to do large "bear wave" attacks with whole divisions.

[Nightcrawler]

Dr. Rob, the bears I had in mind were the ones in Alaska, where I"ve heard that such weapons like a .44 Magnum revolver, good enough for the lower 48, won't cut it, and the bears tend to be a bit meaner.

The only difference between my idea and, say, a Browning BAR is that the Kalashnikov action is simpler, more reliable, and easier to field strip. Obviously, if you don't want a 10 round "high capacity" magazine, you can use a 5-round hutning mag; it might be mandated by law, depending on where you're hutning. Also, the Kalash type weapon would certainly be much easier to strip, clean, and maintain than any "sporting" semiauto I've ever encountered. Disassembly of, say, the Remington 7400 is simply a pain in the butt.

It wouldn't, by any means, have to be a full-size rifle, either. Chop the barrel to 16", and cut the weight down as much as possible. It'd have an overall length of about 36", and weigh about eight and a half pounds. Pretty handy, I think. But then, my definition of a "heavy" weapon is different than a lot of other people's.

I've heard of Alaskan bear hunters using .338 and 7mmRem; we're talking about very large, and very dangerous game here. Especially if you're hunting it, I don't know that you'd want to get close enough to be able to kill it with a shotgun. Depends on how gutsy you feel, I suppose.

I'm quite content to let the big bears stay in Alaska, but there are those who do like to go after them for sport, I'm told.

Note, too, that my rifle idea wouldn't be limited to bears, obviously, you should it at whatever you wanted. I don't know, what do people hunt with BARs and boltguns in 7mm and .338? Seems a bit much for deer. .30-06 will take Elk, I'm told.

[sixgun_symphony]

THE CHARGE OF THE GRIZZLY AND FOUR ACES (http://98.net/ibha/grizzly.htm#top)

The challenge of hunting the dangerous grizzly bear armed
with a .54 caliber flintlock rifle and a .58 caliber flintlock pistol.

[Nightcrawler]

Well sure. I'm certainly not mandating that anyone use a .338 for bear, or anything else.

On the other hand, I thought of a rifle that, to me, is simply an easier to maintain weapon in the same category as the Browning BAR Mk. II. A simple "I think a .338/.45-70/7mm semiauto is inappropriate for bear hunting" would've gotten your point across just as well.

[NewShooter78]

Well its a pretty cool idea to me Nightcrawler, if not a tad expensive. :D But I think that I'd go with a 12g pump shotty, or a lever action big bore. But I do like the idea of 10 rounds instead of 5. I once asked suggestions about guns for that reason because I was thinking of taking up an old friend of mine on a trip up to Alaska for a camping trip, and low and behold, he's a guide pilot! I know he'd have probably plenty of gunpower, but I wanted my own. But I still like the idea just for the heck of it if not for a practical reason.

[motorep]

I have an acquaintance who teaches the bear school for USGS, for their personnel going to Alaska- probably bigger bears than in Michigan. 12 gauge only, no big bore Casulls, rifles etc. They have a motorized bear target that basically simulates stepping into traffic going 35 mph. Pretty intimidating. This is for self defense, not hunting, but, based on experience- 12 gauge only.

[Kor]

I think that there was an article in the current Guns & Ammo Annual about a special course at Gunsite about defense against dangerous animals(i.e. bears) which emphasized the use of .45-70 leverguns, 12ga shotguns and super-magnum-class handguns.

I also mind me that McCann Industries in Spanaway, WA - mccann.machine@worldnet.att.net - may have been converting M1 Garands to .338Mag - the converted rifles even feed from Garand clips, although you can only get 5 .338's in each clip. Though a bit pricier than an RPK-type rifle, a "tankerized" 5-shot .338 Garand sounds like a handy bit of bear medicine to me.

Or, instead of an RPK as a base, perhaps one of the Romanian Dragunov-type rifles could be used as a base gun, as its action is already scaled-up for 7.62X54.

[WYO]

Pretty cool, Kor. I found McCann's website at http://www.mccannindustries.com/index.html

Only $2,500 plus your Garand (for the base model, of course).

Anyway, I guess a 12 gauge or .338 bolt would have to do for me. I really don't think that there would be much time to accurately unload a semi-auto under most circumstances.

[T.Stahl]

How about an HK SLB2000 in 9.3x62 with a ten round mag?
A friend of mine achieves an ME of more than 4000lbsft with his handloads.

[gun-fucious]

One could convert a .410 saiga shotgun to 45-70

[labgrade]

I know nothing about bears, but from all I've read, you'll be lucky to get off one shot when/if attacked - at 35 MPH from 10 feet away.

Semis, bolts, pumps doesn't seem to matter much. You get - one - shot --- if that.

Make it count.

[El Rojo]

Nah, 12 gauge isn't cool enough. Just put a red dot on this and take off the bipod. Don't forget to curl this gun several times a day to get conditioned for it.

http://www.barrettrifles.com/images/model82A1.jpg

[St. Gunner]

My middle brother went to Alaska last year for a fishing and hiking trip. Took his HS2000 along in 9mm, asked me to load him some 147gr XTP's, told him he was beyond having screws loose. Offered him my Rem870 with the 18.5" barrel and some slugs, or my .45/70. He said he didn't need em, if it was really needed it was gonna be close and he'd shoot him in the head. I quit argueing and loaded him 50 hot 147gr loads and wished him luck and told him to take some trash bags so they could get his pieces back. He saw his first track and put on his tennis shoes and left the GS at the place they where staying.

I spent a summer in Canada a few years ago and I can assure you I am not going anywhere without an 870 or a Guide Gun in .45/70 with some of those Buffalo Bore loads. Isn't someone building a .50AE on an M1 carbine action with 10rd magazine? I thought I had seen an article on one in a gun rag someplace. Handy, quick to point, and a potent load, not a .45/70 but maybe the handy makes up for it.

[iamkris]

That's it...thanks gunfucious

Nightcrawler, it's a neat mental exercise but I still think you're looking for an answer to a question that already has an answer.

.45-70 will take any dangerous game in North America handily. It will take any game in the world with a slightly slimmer margin. The Marlin lever gun is a proven package. If you're going to all the trouble to increase the mag capacity, why not have an 1895GS rebarreled with a 24" barrel and up the mag to 6 or 7?

[Gordon]

The problem with all these weird semi auto apparatus is that they havent proven to be 100% reliable which for bear defense is what its all about. I have shot 1 Kodiak and numerous Blacks with appropiate rifles; .338 , .375 45-70. The guys needing defence , like scientists ect. to a man use; 12ga short barrel pumps with slugs with the occasional heavy rifles mentioned. Guides use heavier calibers yet because they are batting cleanup.While not the weapon of choice a heavy caliber hand gun with deep penetrating hard cast or super controlled expansion bullets would prove very effective if shots could be delivered to brain ect. The problem with stopping a bear attack is similar to the same problem as a human attack to a much greater extent. A determined adversary could take hits to heart or lungs or other vitals and not bleed to unconsciousness before killing the shooter. Combine that with the kind of nerves of steel and skill to hit a charging target and you see why anything you could handly carry would be sub minimal. Moral , dont get in posistion to get "surprised" and plant your heavy caliber slug to break down shoulder and heart or maybe spine. Post guards in shifts when along prime bear habitat, use your superior knowledge and marksmanship!

[gun-fucious]

yea, but check out the video of the dood shooting the FA 458 SOCOM:
http://1919a4.com/gca/keith_458socom.avi
http://1919a4.com/gca/leona-keith-458socom.mpg

http://www.gulfcoastarmory.com/mgvids.html

http://www.teppojutsu.com/images/rounds_lined_up.jpg

My dad was stationed by the DER on Kodiak Island back in the late 50s

He carried a 30-06

[Badger Arms]

Hehehe, this is funny. Bears in New Orleans... Hehehe. I was just checking out all of the posters' locations here. Most of the people in bear country agree, 12ga Slug is probably the best medicine. Lightweight and CHEAP which is the primary concern. If you have the money, spend it on a 45/70 or some other short rifle. Follow-up shots are usually a joke. A bear can run VERY fast and you're likely to get one shot only. Big magnums are fine, but you best have a double rifle, because working a bolt with a charging bear that you've just grazed and upset greatly is NOT something I want to have to do.

The bottom line is that bear attacks are so rare, even up here, that the gun will likely be carried lots, shot never. After a few fishing trips, you're going to start leaving the gun on the ATV, then in the Truck, then at home. Bear country is hard on ANY gear and that includes $1,500 WWG rifles. Be willing to beat the crap out of the gun. Don't need the takedown feature, bears don't wait for you to assemble and load the gun.

Finally, don't put a stupid pistol-grip on the shotgun. Bears are stopped by well placed shots to vital organs that do massive damage. Put that shotty to your shoulder and place your shot well. You can obliterate the heart, and the bear will still have about 4 minutes of kick-butt left in it. Don't aim for the head. Unless you hit an eye or ear cavity or get a square-on shot, most shotgun slugs and bear calibers are going to fail.

If you have lots of time to think about these things, the bear probably isn't a threat. If you have the time, try other methods to ward the bear off. Shooting a bear that isn't a threat will MAKE IT A THREAT if you don't kill it. If you do kill it, you have to prove that the bear was a threat to you.

[Freedom in theSkies]

I think that a pump shotgun prefferably 18" barrel with MC choke and a folding stock/ pistol grip combo would work great. The ammo load would be: first 3 shots 3" mag 1oz. slugs, followed by
3 rds of 000 Buck.
- And a can of bear strength pepper spray velcro'd to the underside of the mag tube, in true Skunkabilly Tactical fashion.- Just in case...

[foghornl]

Take a look at the Marlin 1895CB 'Cowboy Model'. 9+1 of .45/70. According to the spec sheet, though, it is a LOOONG gun....26" octagon taper barrel, overall length of 44.5"

Although 10 rounds of .45/70 in a slick Marlin lever gun....:D

[NewShooter78]

Hey! I never said there were bears in New Orleans, but there are black bears in the state. Jeez, what's a guy got to do? :neener: :D ;)

[labgrade]

Like I said.

I know zip about big bears except that you'd better stop one toot sweeet!

A shot through their nose - coming front on - with a suitable caliber seems a good thing. We used to use the "front tooth" method for "breaking down" terr-perps.

A big/heavy caliber - 12 gauge slug/.45-70 kinda thing - that area = for deep penetration seems to do what works.

All others need not apply.

You do not have time for it to "bleed out," or anything else but to just break it down & stop it immediately.

My thoughts on bears & hogs is to just break it! Now!

Killing it's for later.

[Keith]

Badger,

Over there in Anchorage/Kenai you could live your whole life and never see a grizzly. When you get off the road system to Kodiak, SE, or the Peninsula you can see big brownies every day. I've been following this pretty closely, and since 98 when I started to take notice (after a rude awakening), I've noted between 5 and 10 reported maulings every year in this state alone. A lot more bears are killed "in defense of life and property" than that - ask any bear biologist. So, they may be "rare", but they are common enough in some parts of the state that they really have to be considered whenever you hunt, fish, hike, etc.

As for guns, I think there's a disconnect between hunting and defense. If you're hunting (brown) bears, get a .338 or a .375 with a good scope and go for it. If you're just fishing or hiking, such a weapon is not a great choice because they're heavy and the scope essentially makes you blind at short range - where bear attacks happen. Ditto with a heavy semi-auto of any kind.

For me, the perfect choice is the Marlin GG, but I concede a short barreled shotgun would serve just as well. The key here is short, light and handy. Bear attacks almost always happen in dense cover, because that's where bears lie up during the day and that's the terrain that lends itself to getting within the animals safety zone without seeing them, or them seeing you. If a bear spots you at a distance, it generally goes the other way. A bear encountered at close range can be nasty.

A lot of maulings occur along creeks where the alders tend to be thick, and the water covers the sound of the human footstep. You're edging along to the next hole in the river and a bear jumps up at ten feet, surprised and angry.

So, what's needed is a handy weapon that is quick to point, and SHORT enough to be useful in an alder thicket. Anybody who has ever threaded their way through such a mass will understand that. I suppose short enough to be wielded in a tent would be another way of saying the same thing, and another circumstance where a firearm would be useful...

And I'll say again that in addition to a rifle (or shotgun), the best tool you can carry is a large can of pepper spray. Not to use against "attacking bears", but to use whenever a bear is too close, but not necessarily threatening you. I always get a load of .... for saying that from all the macho types, but it's true. If you are to say, float the Karluk river (here on Kodiak) for some of the finest King Salmon fishing in the world, you will literally see a dozen grizzlies a day. And many of those bears will be close, and perhaps curious, or interested in your beer cooler or tent... or the trophy fish you are carrying. Pepper spray gives you an option that a rifle doesn't. Such bears can be chased off with a blast of pepper spray. Yes, it really does work.

If you didn't have pepper spray, you'd either kill bears every day (and likely go to prison) or spend a lot of time in trees (good luck finding a large tree on the south end of Kodiak), sleeping in the rain because your tent smelled good and was turned into confetti or eating a steady diet of fish because your baloney and flapjack mix disappeared down the gullet of some ursine epicure. I could tell stories all day about people I've known who've had everything they owned turned into garbage by a curious bear. I once saw a photo showing a pile of tent fabric in Kodiak bear doo-doo. The bear had eaten somebodies tent!

Bear attacks are "fairly" rare. Bear problems are very common. Pepper spray in the right circumstances is GREAT stuff to have around. I wouldn't even consider pepper spray with an angry bear or a sudden encounter with a bear, that's what firearms are for.

Keith

[Nightcrawler]

WEll, besides bear, what else do people hunt with .338s, 7mm Rem Mags, and so on? They seem like overkill for deer and elk, unless you like REALLY long range kills (does anybody try to take deer at 600 yards?)

[Dr.Rob]

7mm mag isn't overkill for elk.. and yes it makes a dandy long range game getter.. for wiley critters like trophy pronghorn.

My buddy Dan bought a 375 for Africa, but the red tape of getting the rifle there made it too much of a hassle. He did all his plains game hunting with a camp gun... a Remington 700 7mm mag (gemsbock, kudu, zebra, wildebeest, etc) said he was buying one as soon as he could.

Like I said, there is a big difference between bear hunting.. and bear defense. I've carried an 870 with slugs, and a scoped 30-06 hunting black bears. Either one would do the job.

[iamkris]

7 mm RM = elk medicine

.338 Win Mag = moose medicine

All shots within 3-400 yards and that's pushing it.

Chuck Hawks has a GREAT site in general and a specifically good article on ranges and power factor for hunting different animals at different ranges. http://www.chuckhawks.com/game_range_caliber.htm

[justice4all]

I'd want a shotgun, but in rifles make mine a semiauto. I imagine an M1 Garand would be a good rifle in such a circumstance.

[lilbiggun]

There are more brownies than people think around Los Anchorage and the kenai than people think, either that or I'm one of the few who actually keep there eyes open.

The only rifle I have that has a scope is my sheep/caribou rifle, otherwise its all open sights. I found out how useless a scope is when a bear is telling you leave his moose kill. Now its just either my co-pilot or my 375 when I leave pavement.

[Badger Arms]

Kieth:

Agreed on all points. You might hear one "Expert" or another state that you need all these fancy, smancy elephant guns, bolt guns, etc. Some will say that you need that 454 Cassul or their 4" 44 Magnum will kill two bears a shot if you line them up. This is all crap. I could be wrong, but most of the people in the know agree something light, short, and out of the way. Follow-up shots better be a lever flick or slide shuck away or my might as well be using a single-shot. I remember one very reputable guide telling me that a 416 was the minimum he would use for bear protection. That might be fine if you are HUNTING and backing up the guy with the 'little' 338 or 375, but DEFENSE is another story.

I do get out of Anchorage every once in a while. I can tell you that the only Bear that's ever gotten close enough to spook me was in a stand of dense brush where he RAN WHEN HE SAW ME AND DIDN'T COME OUT!!! All I had at the time was a shotgun loaded with 2 3/4" Steel Shot for geese. I was almost as scared as he was!

I always get a kick out of telling people that I carry a 9mm when fishing in Bear country. When they ask why I just say, "All you need to do is shoot the guy next to you in the kneecap. Then you can outrun him. No human can outrun a bear."

All this said, I still carry a 5.5" Ruger Bisley/Vaquero when fishing or hiking. I figure that I'll just leave the shotgun at home. Too cumbersome. Yeah, I'll save the last bullet for myself!

[Keith]

It's not just the bears....

UAA police shoot, kill aggressive moose on campus
MENACING: Students, officers say the cow was dangerous and threatening.


By Peter Porco
Anchorage Daily News

(Published: January 23, 2003)
Campus police at the University of Alaska Anchorage shot and killed a cow moose Tuesday night after the animal had menaced students and charged the officers.

At one point, a student got trapped behind a light pole near the UAA Commons when the moose forced him to take refuge there, said Sgt. Annie Endecott of the University Police Department.

"He kept dodging the moose," Endecott said. "Every time he moved, the moose got real aggressive."

Officer Brad Munn later fired two shotgun slugs at the animal when it charged both him and Endecott as they watched it browsing on a birch tree.

Though struck, the animal ran off into nearby woods where, more than two hours later, officers tracked it down with flashlights and Endecott finished it with two more slugs.

"I'd rather not have had to shoot it," she said. "But we were afraid a student could get hurt." She guessed the animal's age as between 2 and 3 years.

A 100-foot trail of blood smears and debris leading out of the woods near one of the dorm buildings indicated very clearly Wednesday where the carcass had been dragged behind an ATV by members of a charity organization called in to salvage the meat.

The moose had been extremely aggressive while wandering around the Commons area, according to police and students.

"Somebody warned us: 'Watch out! There's a moose over there with its ears down,' " said Aaron Wilson, a 22-year-old junior, referring to his encounter with the animal as he and a friend left the UAA Commons after dinner.

It was about 6:30 p.m., and several others were cautiously watching the animal. Wilson said he's from Juneau and doesn't know moose very well but nevertheless thought this one was "dangerous."

"We watched it for a little while and walked as far as we could around it," Wilson said.

About the same time, someone called campus police.

Munn arrived and drove his patrol car along bike paths behind the Commons. On a small hill leading up to the dorms, he saw the moose 30-40 feet away, highly agitated.

"It was like a bronco," Munn said. "It started bucking with its back legs, kicking outward, and even with its front, throwing that out. It was blowing air from its nose."

Munn called Endecott, who used to be an Alaska State Trooper in the Fish and Wildlife Protection Division.

"I felt right then we had a dangerous moose," he said.

He drove around to another part of the campus to put himself between the moose and a frequently crossed area called the quad.

Standing near a corner of a dorm building, he pulled his shotgun out, watching the moose browse contentedly on a tree.

"I wasn't sure it was the same moose," he said. He got out of the car with his shotgun and was watching the animal when Endecott, who had arrived, walked up to him.

"It was maybe five car lengths away, just browsing," Endecott said. "Out of the blue, it was (coming) at us, making funny noises with its teeth, its ears were down, the hair on its neck went up, and . . . it cleared that distance quicker than I can imagine."

Endecott told Munn to shoot as she jumped out of the way. He fired off one slug when the moose was 15 feet away and the second when it was nearly on top of him, police said.

"It ran within a couple feet of us and kept going," said Endecott.

"Thirty yards away there was a parent unloading groceries for his kid," Munn said. "He had no idea that moose was ever there. If I hadn't shot, the moose would've got me or my sergeant or somebody in the parking lot."

"I've never seen a moose do what it did," Endecott said.

It was unclear why the moose behaved so badly, she said. The moose did not appear to have a calf.

Another moose was shot on the UAA campus in January 1995 when a cow, apparently protective of its calf, stomped a 71-year-old man to death outside the UAA Sports Center.

State wildlife officials shot that moose four days later after it charged another man on the campus. The calf later died after being hit by a car.

[Okiecruffler]

You don't need a gun for bear protection, just go hiking with a slow friend.

[Badger Arms]

That moose that stomped the man on UAA scared me. My daughter and I had just been charged the day before by a Momma that ended up bedding down in our back yard. We couldn't shoot the darn thing and we couldn't go out back either. I was holding my 2-year-old and the moose charged us to within about 5 feet when she veered off to the side and came so close I could have reached out and touched her. I had just stood still and waited to get stomped. My kid didn't care, we circled around the block to go in the front door and she just kept saying 'moose' over and over like it was a big stuffed animal.

[Cosmoline]

Keith has it right. When HUNTING bears, you're likely going to be taking shots at some distance at the broadside. You're also likely to be on as secure a rest as possible, and you'll take time to aim at the sweet spot. You need a rifle powerful enough to break through the shoulder if needed, expand, cut through the heart and lungs, and exit to allow maximum blood loss.

For DEFENDING against a bear, you'll be dealing with the business end. Instead of thin skin and a little bone over the chest, you're facing many, many inches of muscle, thick bone and so on between you and the heart/lung area. Hitting the brainpan is difficult at best and the chance of wounding a bear and making it VERY angry is high. If you're really attacked, you may have only a few seconds at best. The exception is if you're being stalked by a black bear who plans on eating you. If you're hit by a brownie defending cubs or a kill, you may not get any warning at all. Whatever you have, you have to be very comfortable shooting it and you have to be able to use it at close range very quickly. If you're faster and better with a beat up little carbine in .30-30, I'd recommend carrying that rather than a massive 9 lb safari rifle.

The 1895G is pretty neat, but keep in mind you may not have time to work the lever to chamber a round.

Most guys I know who hunt in thick brownie country don't worry too much about massive firepower. They carry spray and their little Sitka deer rifles, and keep a good eye out for trouble. That's it.

[Cosmoline]

Let's not get TOO paranoid about Alaskan wildlife. As far as moose, you're much less likely to get away with a defense of life or property excuse if you shoot one. The last thing we need are tourists blowing away cows and depleting the stock. I know of only one fatal attack, the one Keith mentions at UAA. That was a bit of a fluke. I've been chased many times by street moose and trail moose. The proper response? Make like brave Sir Robbin and boldly run away! ;-) The bulls during mating season just want to be the Boss. The cows just want you to get away.

Frankly, the biggest threat in this respect are OFF LEASH DOGS! The only time I had to dive out of the way of a really pissed off bull, he had been driven to rage by off leash dogs that were pestering him. I've also seen them play "wolf pack" with a cow and cubs. The cow could of course kick the dogs into next week, but she doesn't know that. To her, they ARE wolves. Moose sure taste good, but they aren't known for smarts.

FYI, you are indeed allowed to shoot unsupervised dogs that are molesting wildlife. They are deleterious exotic wildlife. Typically, though, the owners are nearby and just lazy.

[Keith]

Actually, the same winter the man was stomped to death at UAA, an old woman was killed in her yard, also in Anchorage.

This elderly gal had just moved down from one of the villages to live with her son or daughter in Anchorage. A moose came into the yard to dine on the shrubbery and this lady went out with a rolled up newspaper to "swat" it... and it killed her. Apparently, city moose are not as easily intimidated as the rural moose she was accustomed to. I attribute it to all that rap music they hear over there in Anchorage!

I know that sounds like some sort of urban legend, but it actually happened!

Keith

[Badger Arms]

Well, yes, but how many cars do moose kill?:rolleyes:

[Cosmoline]

That must have been an angry year for our moosey friends. Maybe they were planning a takeover, testing our defenses. The street moose in Anchorage are indeed less timid than those who get hunted. A recent study also showed they were more stressed out. I also get more stressed out in Anchorage, esp. when trying to drive cross town on Friday at about five.

I'm going to put "swatting a moose" high on my list of BAD IDEAS ;-)

[Keith]

Swatting anything larger than a toy poodle is a bad idea!

I *think* 95 might have been the year that there was very little snow. Remember that? There was one year when several packs of wolves moved right into town because they couldn't run down any moose out in the boonies - no snow to bog the moose down for the kill. Anyway, they were chasing moose all over town, and killing pet dogs left and right. A jittery year for urban wildlife.

And come to think of it, there hasn't been much snow this year either. At least we haven't had any over here. There has been only one short period around Christmas when it was even cold enough for frost at night. That's not real unusual over here, but I heard Anchorage was mild this year too - or has that changed?


Keith

[Art Eatman]

Meese apparently ain't the brightest of critters, and they certainly can go bonkers. Years ago, I saw a real-life film of a bull moose charging a train. A one-time event, of course.

:), Art

[lilbiggun]

Anchorage is real mild this year. We just got back from shooting down by girdwood and there is no snow. We went to portage to get some coffee and it was snowing pretty good there.

It was 95/96 where we didnt get any snow till Feb. That year sucked because it was cold as hell and all the pipes were busting on base.

As for which action is "best" for defensive guns, it depends on the person. I have a buddy whose very fast with a single shot, Of course he doesnt use it for hiking because its uncomfortable keeping extra rounds between his fingers. I happen to be much more comfortable with a lever than a bolt.