[George Hill]

For the love of Pete - does ANYONE worthwhile make a 1911 GM without Forward Slide Serrations?
These things are UGLY. They remind me of the bit in the movie Tombstone when Virgil grabs the boy out of the way of the horses and gives him to his Momma... who is a pretty young thing - but has this long ragged scar across her face.
Thats our new breed of 1911s.
FSS cuts are useless, ugly, collect lint, snag my shirt just a touch so that after a while all my shirts had the same abbration wear through...
"Oh, but you use them for press checks."
I don't do press checks... so I don't want them. Besides, even if I did a press check - I'd do it from the rear serrations the way I have always done them. Or even from the bushing at the muzzle end *shocked-gasps* because I don't like FLGR either.
I have to give SIG some credit... No FSS there... but then they had to make it look like a SIG with that line down the length. *@#$)!@&*$!!~@!~!!!!!
Then there is the Griffon - No FSS there either... but you have holes in the slide! GEEEZE!
LEAVE THE SLIDE ALONE!

[Sean Smith]

No front cocking serration 1911s that I know of under $1,000:

Colt 01991 series guns
Colt Gold Cup Trophy
SA Milspec & short-barreled SA and Kimber models.

All the DWs I've seen, except for a few special-order Razorbacks, have them too. Even the Colt XS/XSE and Colt Gunsite Pistol models are in on the FCS act.

At the high end, Ed Brown and Rock River Arms guns are available with no front cocking serrations, unlike Wilsons or Baers.

[Smoke]

While I'm not fond of them either. Nor do I use them. I don't mind them from an aesthitics stand point. My gipe is the fine cut serrations (front or rear) that cut the skin on my fingers if I get a bit rough. (as found on Para Ordnance pistols)

There are guns with out them George, just keep looking or go to Sears and by you a nice angle grinder to remove them. :D

[longtom4570]

My WWII mil-spec doesn't have one . Don't need one thankyou. But i guess it looks tatical and all.

[Stinkyshoe]

Thank you for bring this up. I have always wondered about this.

[Sean Smith]

Forgot to add: I don't like FCS either. I think they look ugly, and I don't check to see if my gun is loaded by sticking my hand closer to the part where the fire & hot lead come out of. :D

[flinch]

Amen George Hill, Amen.

[Will Fennell]

Your right,
They[Forward slide serrations] generally don't look good, but I do like'em.....I use them and find them helpful with retracting the slide.

But in the "looks" dept, I like a totally clean slide-just rear serrations....no rollmark- the best. 5" gun that Heinie is working on now has a slide[caspian] like that.

But, by George;) , that was a pretty good rant!

[clown714]

I,really don't have an opinion on FSS.

as I,haven't carried one w\them.

all my 1911's have just the rear.

but I,could see (as mr.hill already stated)where they
could snag on something.

JMHO

clown

[Will Fennell]

George,
How about this....

http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-pstl-1911-ms.shtml

:confused:

[Dorrin79]

George - I agree 100%.

FSS are ugly and serve no real purpose (at least for me)

That's one of the reasons I really like my SA Mil-Spec. Elegant Simplicity, the way a 1911 was meant to be.

[Denny Hansen]

I like 'em.

[1911Tuner]

George, buddy! Don't mince words now. Tell us how ya really feel.:D

I don't much like'em either, but I can live with'em I guess. As long as Colt
doesn't screw up the NRM Government Model, I can look at'em and
remember the good ol' days.

Cheers!

Tuner

[HD]

hate them with a purple green polkadot striped passion... dammed things weren't meant to be there , just more of the gameboys BS...
jmb would puke...

[Correia]

I don't mind them. They don't really get me worked up one way or the other.

HD, gameboy? Can't see how you can blame FCS on gamers. And none of us know what Browning would have to say because he has been dead for a very long time. For all we know he might think the polymer framed, 22 shot 9x23, compensated 1911 with a holosight was pretty nifty. :p

[9x19]

It depends on who does them... I like Kimber's, dislike Springfield's.

Like others have said... Springfields and Colts are available without them.

Quit grousing and buy what you like... others do, which, come to think of it, is exactly WHY there are so many 1911 style pistols WITH FCS!

:neener:

[Soap]

The only reason why I like them is so I can perform a chamber check. It is less fumble prone IMO to cup your off hand under the gun, grip the forward serrations, and push/pull with both hands to check the chamber. Using this method one can also do a tactile check in the dark with the trigger finger.

That said, my Colt doesn't have them and I don't miss them significantly.

[1911Tuner]

First, let's look at why they're there to start with...

Well, so that the pistoleer can check his chamber and the press-check is
negated due to a full length guide rod...Another doo-dad that most of
us purists feel is unnecssary, though they do seem to smooth out the
cycle of a worn pistol a bit and add a little weight to the front of the pistol.

Also, it's safer to use the front grasping grooves for a chamber check than the old press-check. The press-check normally has the thumb in the trigger
guard with the hammer cocked and unlocked...The potential for ND is high
ANY time something that has the potential to pull the trigger goes into
the trigger guard. The way around it is to hook the strong-side thumb
over the hammer and press away. Not a bad idea to do that when using the front serrations/grasping grooves too. Easy to do and MUCH less
chance of BANG when we don't want it.

I can take'em or leave'em, but given the choice, I'd druther leave'em.
YMMV

Tuner

[10-Ring]

I'm not a fan of them either, but by no means would I call it a deal breaker. If it's the right 1911 at the right price, I'd still get it.
As for models that don't have them, the only ones that come to mind are the more basic models like the SA Mil Spec & the Colt 1991a1.
Good luck on your quest!

[Hellbore]

I hate them. Just wanted to cast my vote.

[JoeHatley]

I love 'um!! Especially when my sight set up precludes the use of the back set.

http://www.iowatelecom.net/~hatley/sw1911_l_ud.jpg

Joe

[JohnBT]

Okay, I'm curious. Has anyone ever done a press check and found that, by golly, the round they thought was in the chamber wasn't? If so, where'd it go?

Me? I was raised in the school of "Keep your hand away from the muzzle boy."

John

[mini14jac]

I'm with you George.
I think they are ugly.
And, I'm not entirely comfortable grabbing a suposedly-loaded pistol by the muzzle. :uhoh:

[agtman]

No serrations on this one. Nope, this Tibbets Delta Elite has what are known as "tactical scallops."

Their purpose is to aid in shrinking group size ... :what:


http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/2313822.jpg

Obviously, they work. :D

[George Hill]

"Okay, I'm curious. Has anyone ever done a press check and found that, by golly, the round they thought was in the chamber wasn't? "


No. No, I haven't. Yeah there is the Mil-Specs.. and they are indeed good guns. But I don't like the GI grip safety because I end up with a whole in the web of my shooting hand.... and I don't like the sights. I want a LOADED model with out forward slide serations... and I don't want to have to spend the extra 150 to 200 bucks to get a Mil-Spec and modify it. But that's just me. I just think it would be really cool if this was an "OPTION" and not a "FEATURE".

[Marko Kloos]

I don't like them because they tend to tear up the inside of leather holsters. Alas, both my current 1911s have the forward serrations, so the inside of my DeSantis Inner Piece looks a bit frayed. Unfortunately, the feature set I wanted wasn't available without forward serrations, and I don't have the green to get a Springfield Professional without the serrations. I could always get a Springfield Mil-Spec, but then I'd have to blow about $400 to get the gun up to the feature set I want.

[El Tejon]

Well, leave it to El Tejon to quash a perfectly good rant, but: Long live the FSSs!!!:D

Not mandatory, but an extremely practical option. Especially when hands are sweaty, bloody, slick with snot, etc.

El Tejon, firmly in the function over form camp.:cool:

[Dorrin79]

George -

One thing to keep in mind is that there are two different SA MilSpecs.

The "Standard" Milspec has 'real' 3-dot sights and a couple of other 'improvements' (thats what I have)

The "GI Milspec" is the model with the tiny GI 'sights' and all the other kosher features.

[Shmackey]

I hate 'em. They're a dealbreaker for me at this point.

For the love of Pete - does ANYONE worthwhile make a 1911 GM without Forward Slide Serrations?

Colt. Their NRM Series 80s and the Series 70 repros are the best thing going right now. As for wanting a swoopy beavertail, well, it's easier to put one on than it is to take the serrations off.

Besides, one day you'll realize that the beavertail is almost as goofy as the serrations. :)

[Goldendog]

There are a lot of things in this world that really bug me.
The grooves on the front of a slide, not so much.:)

MF

[Harold Mayo]

Wish List item #438:

I wish that Springfield Armory would make a "Loaded" package gun in .38 Super and without the forward cocking serrations.

<holds wish list item #438 in one hand and waits for the other to fill up with something...>:(

[Bill Hook]

I hate them too, on any gun, but especially 1911s. If they were supposed to have them, JMB would've put them there.

[G1FAL]

What about the Rock Island 1911's? From the people I've talked to, they're good guns, and good to build on if you decide to change anything out. IIRC, they dont have the forward serrations.

[BluesBear]

George I agree with you 100% !

I'll never own a pistol with either those FUGLY serrations or one of those inane full length rods. :barf:

If you can't grasp the rear serrations, what makes you think you can grasp the front ones? :rolleyes: If your hands are so bloody or sweaty that you feel a need to press check then something has already gone terribly wrong.

When I load my Colt I KNOW whether there is a round in the chamber or not. (It ain't rocket surgery folks)

If you harbor any doubts as to the ability of either yourself or your pistol to properly chamber a round perhaps you need a different weapon?

[Martini13]

:banghead: Hate the foolish things. I agree with ALL of the negative comments. It seems as though some smart mfg. will pick up on this thread and offer W/O as an option.:evil:

[Rich in VA]

When I see a slide without them, I ask myself where my 10 line file is.

They sure are nice with a big ol' fat set of Swensons on the gun....... Oh, sorry, JMB didn't have access to those, either, so I guess they are forbidden, just like non-GI (fill in your after market part here) stuff on your gun. Not too many folks shooting bone stock, out of the box mil-spec guns out there. For those that do, make sure you only use GI mags and ball ammo. You might want to get one of those really cool looking campaign hats, too, just to be authentic. Don't forget the flap holster.

(sarcastic/facetious mode off)

Personally, I think it feels strange to rack a slide from the rear.

One great thing about 1911's is the ability to customize them to our own tastes. To each his own. Lots of folks selling slides without them.

A very Merry Christmas to all!!

Rich ( I like FLGR's, too) in VA

[wildehond]

I do not like the FSS.

1 - They eat your leather holsters.

2 - More places for rust to form without you knowing about it. I prefer steel handguns.

I check the chamber by using the back slide serrations. Then I can check the chamber and I can see where the muzzle of the gun is pointing.

It is just my way of doing it. It works for me. If you like FSS all power to you.

wildehond

[Sarge]

make mine smooth on the front.

[Ryder]

:D I've not found an empty chamber either. I have used the rear serrations in the past but nowadays I just check the mag. If it's charged then so is my chamber. This has an added benefit of verifying the load I am carrying.

[FPrice]

"LEAVE THE SLIDE ALONE!"

I agree George.

To quote (I think) Jeff Cooper from another subject.

"It is a solution for which there was no problem."

[mattk]

I hate them. Oh do I hate them. They are to me useless. And I am a gameboy. Big time gameboy. I currently own 1 1911with them and I am thinking about selling it.
Did I mention that I hate them. I mean like you hate that ex girlfriend who cheated on you hate.

[Mute]

I do not like them on a slide

I do not like them when I ride

I do not like them in on a gun

I do not think they are much fun

I do not like them for press checks

They still keep making them, what the heck

I do not like them stainless or blue

I do not like them hard chromed too

I do not like them in my hand

I do not like them on my night stand

I do not like them come 'round dawn

I think they are Satan's spawn

I do not think they are worth a damn

I do not like them George I am.

[Majic]

They should have made them an option instead of standard equipment. I bet you wouldn't see many FSS if they were optional and people had to actually ask for them.

[BluesBear]

It's real easy to just watch it when I load it. Kinda hard to miss those big honkin' shiny brass badboys jump into the chamber. (always brings a smile to my face) :D And unless you have never done it before you can HEAR the difference in the sound of a round feeding and a slide slamming home empty.

Besides all of my Colts have a loaded chamber indicator anyway.
All I have to do is look.

[45auto]

My 1911's don't have them and I press check using the "front serration" method.
My hands don't slip off the slide, but I don't use heavy springs or shoot with gloves. I can see them being functional for some.

I'm trying to break the habit of "pinch checking" which is the easiest, I think, but probably not one I would want to teach the youngsters. :)

But I do agree with George, I just can't understand a Kimber or Springfield not offering a rear serrations only as another standard model. They have about 40 models each now ;) , what's another 2 or 3.

Colt still sells a fair amount of guns, and I think part of their sales is not only that it's a "Colt"( for some), or that they are building good guns now( I think), but they offer a rear serration, polished blue 1911...period.

[SAWBONES]

Forward grasping grooves
"Full-length" guide rods
Two-tone color schemes

...are my pet peeves on 1911s. I hate them all. I've said all this before, many times, but since this is a new thread, I'll add my $.02...

Not one of those things is needful, helpful, attractive (IMNSHO) or necessary.
They're all examples of "gun fashion".

We know how some of them came about; the front serrations (like extended cocking handles on AR15s) were developed to accomodate slide manipulation with guns that had scope mounting hardware which obscured the rear grasping grooves, while the two-tone color schemes came about in early IPSC with folks who would hard-chrome the receiver to improve wear resistance there, but left the slide blued to minimize glare when sighting. Long recoil guide rods never did have a bona fide justification for existing in 1911s, and still don't, but they became common on IPSC guns in the '80s.

Some people who were easily influenced (IPSC wannabe groupies, that is), thought these things must be "cool" because "all the top shooters" (in IPSC, that is) had them, therefore these STUPID USELESS FEATURES became "fashionable", even though they served no purpose on a CCW or "real life" gun!
A further annoyance is that some of the features have been perverted (eg, two tone guns with white slides and dark frames, opposite the original pattern which had at least some purpose in a competition gun which shot 100,000 rounds a month).

All the new fullsize 1911s seem to be released with these fasion-trendy features as a matter of routine now! Screw 'em.

[chevrofreak]

you 1911 guys have issues :p

[George Hill]

Whoa... wait a sec. I LOVE two toned finishes.
The Dark slide over a light colored frame is AWESOME. I love it. However when the two tones are reversed - then I don't like them even if that scheme may be more practical from a wear mark point of view.

[horge]

While we're at it...

I don't think they can properly be called serrations (something I've done in the past as an act of conformity). Serration is descriptive of an edge the way a saw edge is serrate, or a jagged knife edge is serrate. "Grooves", "ribbing" or "reeding" seem to come closer for a flat surface.
:neener:

I'm not an experienced pistoleer at all, and do not own a 1911.
However, FSM (front slide mutilation, hehe) turns me off on aesthetic grounds. A GI 1911 looks fine as is.

Besides, can't you manage a "press-check" on an original 1911 slide?

[Kodiak AK]

Mute that was great.:D
As to the question , where to get them has already been answeared . I personaly don't care if a gun has them or not .

[Zeke Menuar]

FCS are butt ugly. Kinda like open up a girlie mag and seeing the centerfold babe with a monster zit on her nose. YUK!

I will spend more money to build a gun without FCS rather than cave in to the @#$#%%^ gun builders that think I need them.

I would however pay to have FCS not included as a delete option when buying a new gun.

ZM

[Majic]

I would however pay to have FCS not included as a delete option when buying a new gun.

It would truly be a sad day to pay extra for an original design as an option.

[happyguy]

I don't like'm either. I also don't like extended safeties, beavertails, or Novak sights, or stainless steel. :cuss:

The next gun I'm going to buy is a SW 1911. Go figure!:confused:

Regards,
Happyguy:D

[Soap]

All I have to do is look.

What do you do in the dark?

[BluesBear]

:confused: Why in heck would I be loading my pistol in the dark? :confused:

[Tamara]

I really wish I could get worked up about a feature that has no real effect on the gun's operation one way or the other.

I can get far more involved in discussions about beavertails, ambis, FLGR's, or extended this'n'that, but forward serrations are purely cosmetic. I truly could not care less whether it do or don't have 'em. :uhoh:

[Monkeyleg]

Don't like 'em? Don't buy 'em. How much more difficult can the choice be?

Sheesh: one-tones, two-tones, three-tones. Purists verus "trendy" buyers.

Buy the pistol you want. If the manufacturer isn't selling enough of that model, they'll drop it from the line.

[1911Tuner]

...to the "Is it or isn't it" (loaded) question is to adopt a standard practice...
sort of a First General Order if you will. To wit:

If you have your pants on, your pistol should be in Condition One. Never
a question as to its condition of readiness.

Strict observation of the Second General Order would be:

Always handle the pistol as if it were in Condition Zero, and you can't go wrong.

As to the issue of checking it in the dark...Ever wonder why ON and OFF
are printed on a light switch? If it's ON, you can see that it's on. If it's
OFF, you can't see to read!

There is another real, practical use for the forward grooves on a 1911
slide...On raceguns and other such pistols that have an optical sight
or other such aparatus mounted in such a way as to block access to the
rearward grooves. I forgot that one because I don't tend to consider such
pistols often since I don't use them, but there it is.

That's probably the reason that we see them so much...Kinda like the same reason street cars wind up with things born on the racing circuit.
The custom smiths started getting requests for'em...they caught on.
The manufacturers saw that there was a segment of the market that liked'em...and followed the natural course.

Makes sense to me, anyway...

Tuner

[Sarge]

During the many years I packed an '11, I followed the fowwing procedure-

If the gun was on me, it was loaded full, cocked, & locked.

If it was being put away for the day, it was cleared and put up with the hammer down on an empty chamber.

When it was "made safe" for cleaning, examination, etc., the mag was out and put away, and the slide was locked open.

Simple, safe, and easily identifiable to the operator in full daylight or pitch dark. Never had a problem, and never had to 'wonder' what condition the gun was in.

The ability to believe in and operate according certain absolutes makes life SO much easier.

But- the 1911 absolutely does NOT need front serrations :D

(well, at least mine dont.)

[Ky Larry]

As usual, Tamara has cut thru the b.s. like a light house thru fog. If the front serations bother some people so much, why do they buy pistols with them? Sounds like they are just looking for something to whine about.
It's like they married an ugly spouse just so they could hate to look at them every day. Why can't my problems be as 'major' as FSS? :rolleyes:

P.S. How hard would it be to put a loaded chamber indicator on a 1911 like the one on my CZ PCR? Just curious.

[355sigfan]

I don't do press checks
END

Thats not a good thing. So your carrying around a gun you think is loaded but don't know. Press checking from the rear only allows a visual inspection of the chamber. It does not allow you to feel a chambered round in the dark. I hope you reconsider your ideas on this if you carry. Not press checking can be bad for your health.
Pat

[El Tejon]

Blues, you need to learn to manipulate your weapon in the dark because that's where you'll likely be fighting.

Ky Larry, don't know. Maybe easier for one of those external extractor jobbies? Anywho do not trust them, always verify yourself.

It IS a very minor issue. However, once one understands why the FSSs are there, one become more accepting of go over show. The way of "Oh, I see now." (Shameless plug for education):cool:

[355sigfan]

Why in heck would I be loading my pistol in the dark?
END

Because badguys like the dark. Press checking is a good habit to get into. I can tell you countless stories of cops who found they had an empty chamber prior to a gun call or found out afterwards. Press check if you have the time. It should be loaded but you may have had a brain fart the last time you loaded your pistol.
Pat

[horge]

Well yes, 'press-checking' in the dark is an extremely good skill and habit to have...

But my prior question remains:
Can't you manage a 'press-check' on an original 1911 slide?

You've got nearly the whole hand --palm and fingers-- for friction, right?
If you're talking about blood, sweat, rain, an oil-tanker spill or what-have-you yielding a bad case of the slicks over the slide, then would the FSM really make that much of a difference?

Again, I really am asking honestly -- and while a lot of people tend to answer from theory or based on manny claims, there must be some out there who've tried both original and front-garnished slides in slick conditions.

Thanks.

[BluesBear]

El Tajon said
Blues, you need to learn to manipulate your weapon in the dark because that's where you'll likely be fighting.
355sigfan said
Because badguys like the dark.
I know very very well how to manipulate my weapons in light or dark. I load my pistol in the light. Now RELOADING is something different, but still very easy in the dark. I can tell just by LISTENING and by FEEL if a round chambered or not. Drop the slide on an enpty chamber a few times and them drop the slide on a full mag and PAY ATTENTION! You CAN tell.
Besides what good does a press check do in the dark? :confused:

All of you who are preaching press check, press check, press check, If you have a revolver are you opening the cylinder every 20 minutes like the guys in the old movies do? :rolleyes: Hopefully you don't Cagney the cylinder.

I contend that if ANYBODY is carrying a weapon and they can't REMEMBER if they loaded the chamber or not, then that person SHOULD NOT be carrying a weapon in the first place.


Some of you won't like this next statement so if you are easily offended you'd better skip the rest of this paragraph. Only a MORON forgets if he/she loaded their own gun. It's OK to forget if you UNLOADED it though. You should always pick up a gun and assume it is loaded. If you forgot if you unloaded it or not then you want to drop the mag and rack the slide but you don't need to press check.


So don't tell me I need to learn to manipulate my weapon in the dark. I already know how to so that's why I don't have ANY use for those silly front slide mutilations. IF you feel you NEED them then perhaps YOU are the one who needs to learn low light manipulation.

I am thankful that my Colt Lightweight Commander Enhanced and my Colt Government Enhanced don't have front slide mutilations. Colt no longers offered me the option of buying a new enhanced model WITHOUT front slide mutilations. If I want a new Colt (I much prefer Colt over all others) with the undercut trigger guard (which I could live without) and a flattop slide (which is an option I REALLY like) I would have to settle for an XSE model with those hideous front slide mutilations. :barf: I'd choose an Auto Ordinance first.

[Tamara]

Some of you won't like this next statement so if you are easily offended you'd better skip the rest of this paragraph. Only a MORON forgets if he/she loaded their own gun.

Put me in the moron category, then. Every night I take the loaded, C&L 1911 off my hip. Every morning when I get dressed, I pick it up, press check it, and stick it back in the holster. Just want to make sure that the bullet fairy didn't teleport the cartridge out of the chamber while I was sleeping. Then again, I also check to make sure all the tires on my car are still round-shaped before I hop in to drive to work, even though I know none were squared off on the bottom when I got home the night before. ;)

If you forgot if you unloaded it or not then you want to drop the mag and rack the slide but you don't need to press check.

No thanks; .45ACP factory rounds tend to have about zero neck tension. Do that one or two too many times with a factory load (especially a +P one) and you'll be shopping for new grip panels and a good pair of tweezers.

Of course, all my press checks are done one-handed or in the old-skul fashion that makes folks cringe these days... :uhoh:

[1911Tuner]

Hoo BOY, this one's gettin heated!:uhoh:

I'll have to go with the opinion that any street cop who doesn't know his
weapon's condition of readiness should go back to rookie school.

That being said, we're all human, and we check the condition of our weapons for the same reason that some of us go back and check a door
to see if it's locked after checking it 5 minutes ago. It comforts us.
Oh come on...Don't tell me that you've NEVER done this.:D

The best solution is to adopt First General Order 1 and 2...To wit:
1. If the pants are on, the pistol is ready to rock and roll.
2. If the pants are on and the pistol is ready to go, it should be
handled as if it were in Condition Zero...Cocked...chamber hot, and safety
off. Otherwise it should be holstered.

There is never a doubt. As for press-checking, pinch-checking, etc, it
can be done easily without front grasping grooves in the dark or any
other time. It works thus:

The pistol is cradled with the strong-hand palm against the backstrap/MSH
with the strong hand thumb under the thumb safety and the index finger on top of the barrel hood. The slide is grasped via the Overhand Method,
except it grasps the slide with the thumb alongside the port, and the side of the index finger just forward of the port, and racked far enough to allow the finger to touch the partially ejected round. Cocking the hammer first allows easier manipulation of the slide. Play with an empty pistol a bit and see how it works, and then practice it with eyes closed. It gets easier.
Cup the grasping hand to keep it clear of the muzzle. This takes a certain
amount of finger/hand strength, but not really all that much. Watch the muzzle in a mirror to see how much the hand needs to be cupped to clear it.

Now, for the "In My Opinion" segment. I don't like press checking because it pulls the slide out of battery. Since most autopistols, and particularly the
1911 should be sent to battery at full speed, there is always the chance that the small amount of travel will fail to set the disconnector in the slot,
and the result is a failure to fire. Remembering to give the back of the slide a little bump after letting it return to battery negates it, but under stress,
this step may be omitted. Which brings me back to...

First General Order 1 and 2. Pants on? Lock and Load.

Cheers!
Tuner

[Soap]

BluesBear- Just one example from the other night: I was doing some hardcore studying for an econ final. While studying I decided to take a break to dryfire my 1911. So I cleared the chamber, checked thrice, and practiced on my safe wall. I went back to studying and then I fell asleep in my chair. When I woke up, the first thing that I did was do a chamber check of my pistol out of habit. It was empty obviously. Imagine that the thing that woke me up was the proverbial bump in the night. I'm in the habit of checking the condition of my gun if it leaves my side for an instance. Believing that "I could never not know the condition of my chamber!" leads to NDs and people packing empty guns at the wrong times.

[Soap]

Tamara- Yes, the one-handed chamber check does indeed freak many people out...isn't it great! :D

[355sigfan]

I can tell just by LISTENING and by FEEL if a round chambered or not. Drop the slide on an enpty chamber a few times and them drop the slide on a full mag and PAY ATTENTION! You CAN tell
END

Yes you can tell when your on the range or at home in no stress. But in gun fights you get tunnel vision and audator exclusion. You probably will not be able to hear how your slide cycles.

SNIP
Besides what good does a press check do in the dark?
END

A proper press check is more a function of feeling the round rather than seeing it. You keep your eyes on the area of potential threat. Your support hand grasps the front of the slide from underneath. The index finger of your strong hand feels for the loaded round. Its easier to show than tell. You need to get some appliable training for how to use your pistol in a self defense situation.

SNIP
If you forgot if you unloaded it or not then you want to drop the mag and rack the slide but you don't need to press check.
END

That does not good if your ejector is broken. I know of one nd where a soldier cycled an ar15 several times with out a mag in the gun to make sure it was clear. The round just went in and out of the chamber and when he pulled the trigger it went boom.

SNIP
I contend that if ANYBODY is carrying a weapon and they can't REMEMBER if they loaded the chamber or not, then that person SHOULD NOT be carrying a weapon in the first place.
END

Good people act like morons at times. I am sure you have too. Its part of being human. Unless your saying you have never made a mistake.

You can press check without forward serrations. But its more difficult especially when your hands are sweaty and or wet. I say buy what you want but press check no matter what.
Pat

[Nightcrawler]

I'm in the habit of checking the condition of my gun if it leaves my side for an instance.

Yes. IF IT LEAVES YOUR SIDE. If the weapon is in your control, in your holster, in your hands, or slung on your back, there should be no question as to its condition.

Seriously. Who picks up their pistol in the morning, loads it, and holsters it, and then by 5PM can't remember if they chambered a round or not? I mean, if you forget to chamber a round, do you also forget the gun sometimes? Do you forget to put the magazine in?

Oh and...soldiers aren't issued AR-15s. :neener:

[355sigfan]

Oh and...soldiers aren't issued AR-15s.
END

Actually they were at one time. The Airforce purchased AR15's prior to the M16 designation. However this was a personal weapon and a AR15. If you have ever worked as a police officer you have to unload your weapon at times in certain factilities like jails to bring prisoners in. Its always good to press check after you load the weapon. Its a good habit to get into.
Pat

[Nightcrawler]

The Airforce purchased AR15's prior to the M16 designation.

True, but those are Airmen, not soldiers.

Truth be told, there are M16A1s in my unit that started their lives as Colt AR-15s, but I like to rag people on this point because of the modern trend of gussying up AR carbines to look like whatever the military's using.

In any case, I don't understand press-checking the weapon each time you chamber a round. Once you chamber a round, is it not safe to simply assume the weapon does, in fact, have a round chambered? I mean, you're watching the slide scoop a round out of the mag as it travels forward. It doesn't seem like there'd be a lot of room for screwing it up.

Now, if the pistol is out of your control (i.e., you go to sleep, hand it to someone else, etc.) then you should check. But if it's been sitting in your holster since you loaded it, it's not going to magically unload itself. I can see constant press-checking to be a shooter's version of obsessive-compulsiveness, like those people that can't sleep because they can't stop worrying about whether or not the door's locked, even though they checked it five times already.

[355sigfan]

It does not hurt to press check it takes minimal time why not it can only help.
Pat

[lycanthrope]

"Okay, I'm curious. Has anyone ever done a press check and found that, by golly, the round they thought was in the chamber wasn't? "

As an IDPA SO I see this all the time when a competitor doesn't seat the mag all the way in before "Load and make ready".

Me (not noticing, by sound alone, the familiar clicks associated with a .45 round being chambered): "There's not a live round in that chamber"

Them: "yes, there is, I just chambered one"

Me: "want the option to check?"

Them (grudgingly): "oh..ok"

Them: "Um...thanks."

Me: "No problem"

You can't check to see if the chamber is empty enough times during dry fire to be safe. When you bet your life on your gun, you can't check too many times that it's READY.

[Tamara]

Once you chamber a round, is it not safe to simply assume the weapon does, in fact, have a round chambered?

It must be nice to have such faith... :)

(My answer to that question? "No." ;) )

[Nightcrawler]

(My answer to that question? "No." )

But you do assume your self-defense sidearm will work when it needs to?

So, how do you do these press checks? You insert the magazine, rack the slide, and then check to make sure you chambered a round? How often does one actually do this? How often is enough to be "sure"?

[Tamara]

You insert the magazine, rack the slide, and then check to make sure you chambered a round?

Yes. Have you never had a "ride-over" failure to feed? A quick visual confirmation that the gun actually fed a round may be a good thing. I then stick the gun in the holster.

Not having had to shoot any baddies over the course of the day, I then come home and remove the pistol from the holster before going to bed that night. I may or may not do dry-fire practice with it or another gun before going to bed. Because of this, when I pick up the (C&L, condition one) pistol the next morning to stuff back into the holster on my belt, I get a quick visual/tactile confirmation that it does indeed have a round in the chamber. This strikes me as logical, since in the rush to get ready for work I may grab a gun that I had inadvertantly left cleared last night or a different gun than the one I carried the day before. It's nice to make sure that there's a round in the chamber before I place the gun in the "I AM TRUSTING MY LIFE TO THIS GUN RECEPTACL..." er, "holster". ;)

Then again, I'm an atheist and I don't have a current life insurance policy, so my procedures may differ from those of other folks who have an abiding faith in Divine Providence or MetLife. ;) :)

[BluesBear]

But in gun fights you get tunnel vision and audator exclusion. If you are already IN a gunfight it's a little damn late to be doing a presscheck. :uhoh:
355sigfan said in a previous thread,
Also shooting to slide lock is a shooter malfunction. It happens but you should be reloading before that happens. :rolleyes:

As I have said before I am REALLY glad I never have to worry about you watching my 6. :banghead:

[355sigfan]

SNIP

If you are already IN a gunfight it's a little damn late to be doing a press check.
END

Yes and no. If you have shot the perp and just reloaded for whatever reason and you see no other immediate danger it may be a good idea to press check.

SNIP
As I have said before I am REALLY glad I never have to worry about you watching my 6.
END

I can say the same about you, as you never press check. That indicates that you are tactically lazy. I don’t want a lazy person watching my 6. Would you be watching your area or do you just assume its clear. As for shooting to slide lock being a shooter induced malfunction let me explain the concept to you.

Officers are taught that they ought to be reloading their pistol when ever possible as its best to have a full pistol rather than a partially loaded pistol. If an officer runs dry during a qualification its his fault. Hence the term shooter induced malfunction. This goes for stress courses as well. This is to instill in the shooter to reload whenever possible. This may save the officers life. Now I am aware that life happens and people lose track of how many rounds they have fired when they are taking fire. By teaching them to reload automatically in training means they will not have to think about it during a gunfight. So I continue what I was taught and penalize shooters heavily if they run dry during training. It’s considered a shooter induced malfunction.

Anyway there is no reason to flame each other here. I believe I have expressed my position. You apparently don’t agree. If you find it necessary to insult me because of this disagreement so be it.
Pat
:)

[happyguy]

If a target presents itself, you fire until it dies. That includes the last round in the weapon. If you pass up a shot because you have to "tactically" reload you are being rather foolish.

Regards,
Happyguy:D

[Soap]

happyguy- You don't fire until it dies, you fire until the threat stops doing whatever it is doing to threaten you.

[happyguy]

YOU shoot until the threat stops whatever it's doing.

I'm gonna kill the SOB before he kills me.

Now granted, if I shoot and the threat is ended I'm not going to continue shootiing, but...

But the lawyers and courts have gotten involved in this to the point that we're all starting to play word games that are detrimental to a winning combat attitude. When the SHTF, halfway commitment to the task at hand will get you all the way killed.

When you continually repeat the mantra, "shoot to stop", you are setting yourself up to de-escalate too soon.

It's called DEADLY FORCE for a reason, the lawyers be damned.

Regards,
Happyguy:D

[1911Tuner]

happyguy said:
It's called DEADLY FORCE for a reason, the lawyers be damned.

Touche'...:cool:

[George Hill]

This thread STILL being posted to? :scrutiny:

[El Tejon]

happy, I believe there may be some misunderstanding with the tactical reload. One does so in a lull in the fight, if he can.

blues, a press check is both visual and tactile. One must learn to overcome the reduced vision that the dark brings. A press check allows one to ascertain the status of his weapon, light or dark.

EDIT: Oops, I see what made Blues so mad. Sorry, Blues I should have said "one" instead of "you." I meant to use that "you" in the second person plural and was not directed at you or anyone else. That would be contrary to the ideals of education and THR. Again, sorry about that!

All kinds of bad things can happen in a fight, including one about to round the corner with an unloaded weapon. That is why we press check when we can.

night, one press checks by reaching with the support hand under the slide. The fore, middle and ring finger are in contact with the slide where the FSSs are with the thumb on the other side. One retracts the slide enough to both see (if possible) and feel the (hopefully) chambered cartridge with the trigger finger.

Tamara is either doing a "pinch" or over the top of the slide one handed. This would get her many demerits in gun skul.:D

horge, I've trained with 1911s and Glocks with and without the FSSs. One can press check without them, but when bloody, sweaty, etc., I like the FSSs there as a very utilitarian feature, an aid.

FSSs are by no means necessary. However once one realizes what the dang things are for, the confusion, not to mention hostility, resolves itself.

Allow your software to drive your hardware, not vice versa. [gong sounds]:D

[355sigfan]

If a target presents itself, you fire until it dies. That includes the last round in the weapon. If you pass up a shot because you have to "tactically" reload you are being rather foolish.
END

Of course. If you have a threat you keep firing. Hopefully you go for the head after 2 or 3 body shots unless the threat is too far away then you should try pelvic shots.

There are 3 types of reloads. 1st is run dry reload. This happens when where out of ammo. This is the reload we don't want to happen if we can help it. 2nd is a speed load. This happens when we want more ammo but don't have time to perform a tac load. The partial mag is dumped on the ground and a new magazine is inserted in the weapon. Speed loads should not be done when someone is firing at you. If you are taking fire finish the threat. 3rd is a tactical reload. The tactical reload is done when the shooting is over. You know of no imediate threat. You exchange and retain the partial mag and insert a fresh magazine.
Pat

[Tamara]

Tamara is either doing a "pinch" or over the top of the slide one handed. This would get her many demerits in gun skul.:D

Before there was such a thing as FSS's or factory FLGR's, we called this a "press check". I learned about it on the ferry to Morganville, which is what we called Shelbyville in those days. They couldn't give me any demerits in gun skul at the time, because there was only one gun skul in those days, and I didn't have enough bees for a stagecoach ticket to Arizona, although I did have an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time... ;) :D

[El Tejon]

Confound you, woman! You and your fancy original "press checking."

When all this was orchard, I took the ferry to East Ogdenville in the snow barefoot, and built a gun skul.:D Where's my medication.:p

[Monkeyleg]

OK, I give up. What is the one-handed way to press check?

[PAOLO721]

These things are UGLY. They remind me of the bit in the movie Tombstone when Virgil grabs the boy out of the way of the horses and gives him to his Momma... who is a pretty young thing - but has this long ragged scar across her face.by George Hill

Scar and all, I still thought she was beautiful. I also don't mind the FSS.
Beauty is after all, in the eye of the beholder. Maybe that's why they make ice cream in so many flavors. That being said I think my Kimber here is a beauty. FSS and all.;)

[horge]

Gracias, El Tejon.
I honestly thought 'pinching' (grabbing, in my case) from over the top was how one did press-checks. Never thought of doing it differently, and that's why I earlier mentioned having fingers and most of the palm providing friction even without forward grooves in the slide. Tuner and (I think) Tamara apparently had the same technique in minds.


Monkeyleg,
I think it's called one-handed because the hand moving the slide back is the same hand whose pointer finger is used to cop a feel of the bullet-in-chamber. It's what I had thought all along was THE way to press-check. The way El Tejon describes the proper way :) to press-check, the weak hand moves the slide back, but it's the strong hand's trigger finger that pokes for the bullet.

Did I get that right?


horge

[Tamara]

OK, I give up. What is the one-handed way to press check?

Apologies for the bad photo, but note that the pinkie finger is in the ejection port, confirming the presence of a round under the extractor.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=677539

[horge]

Holy crap, Tamara...
That is so NOT what I had in mind :D

Sorry for the wrong turn, monkeyleg.

[sm]

Please - if you would be so kind to do another pic of the one-hand press check showing the other side, I would be most appreciative. I would like to use these as a teaching tools, with your permisson of course.

Good discussion (s). FSS I prefer not to have them, have my druthers, and get more worked up over Fins, FLGRs, and such.

Yes I press check, I can and do so in the dark.
Repetition becomes faith-faith becomes habit
Oh--and that Murphy fella, never know when he might show up.

Steve

[355sigfan]

The problem I see with the one handed method is its a visual check rather than a feeling check. I like to be able to work in the dark.
Pat

[Tamara]

The problem I see with the one handed method is its a visual check rather than a feeling check.

That is incorrect, sir.

If anything, it's more of a feeling method than a visual one, as one's pinky drops into the ejection port without having to rotate the gun around so that one can see into the breech.

It's not my preferred method, but it is another tool in the toolbox.

[355sigfan]

If anything, it's more of a feeling method than a visual one, as one's pinky drops into the ejection port without having to rotate the gun around so that one can see into the breech.
END

My mistake I did not see the pinky in the port. I prefer the two handed method because the gun remains in my firing grip.
Pat

[Tamara]

I prefer the two handed method because the gun remains in my firing grip.

So do I, as I alluded to in my previous post.

However, for whatever reason, I may not have two hands available for the task, so I also practice doing necessary pistol chores with one hand. I assume you do, too.

[355sigfan]

However, for whatever reason, I may not have two hands available for the task, so I also practice doing necessary pistol chores with one hand. I assume you do, too.
END

Never have practiced a one handed press check. I do practice about everything else one handed with both weapon and support hands. Try a type three malfunction clearance with your support hand only on a 1911 with kimbers swept sights. ITs a pain.
Pat

[1911Tuner]

Well, I ain't no expert, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once...

[MrPink]

OK, here's my two cents on Forward Slide Serrations:

From a functional sense, I don't like them. Call me old school, but I chamber check one of three ways:

1) finger/thumb press check. I know, horrors of horrors, but the key here is to keep the thumb away from the trigger and make sure your index finger is placed on the recoil spring plug from below the gun - never cross the muzzle. OK, so if while press checking I get an ND my finger sure is going to be powder burnt, but I will probably still have the digit.

2) press check via the rear serrations.

3) chamber check the way I do an AR15: pop the mag out and see that it is now one round down. Logical conclusion that said round is now chambered. This is the way I now do it most of the time because it works for most of all of my guns.

From an asthetic sense, forward serrations are just plain ugly. I have a Les Baer that came with them. A fine accurate & comfortable gun, but I've thought many a times about getting a new, plain slide - no forward serrations and also no "Baer Custom" or "45ACP" markings either.

The most butt ugly FSS are those where a gunsmith adds them after the fact and doesn't even try to match the pattern of the rear serrations. Hideous!!!

Finally, with regards to Rear Slide Serrations, I like the original 1911 or A1 vertical cuts the best.

[1911Tuner]

MrPink said:

1) finger/thumb press check. I know, horrors of horrors, but the key here is to keep the thumb away from the trigger and make sure your index finger is placed on the recoil spring plug from below the gun - never cross the muzzle. OK, so if while press checking I get an ND my finger sure is going to be powder burnt, but I will probably still have the digit.

Easy to protect against. Just get the web of the strong-hand thumb on the hammer before putting the other thumb in the trigger guard.

Cheers!
Tuner

[El Tejon]

horge, no, the "pinch" is the technique of placing the forefinger of the support hand on the cap and the thumb inside the trigger guard. Compress the forefinger toward the thumb to press check. (Some leave the thumb out of the guard and use the support hand with forefinger leading to press on the cap.

Note it can be done improperly with an ND the result. I do not use it or advocate it. YMMV.

I come underneath as it may be used with all types of pistols (O.K. not the Ber M21:D). This is what the FSSs are for. Once this part of weaponcraft is understood, FSSs become a lot less objectionable.:)

[355sigfan]

3) chamber check the way I do an AR15: pop the mag out and see that it is now one round down. Logical conclusion that said round is now chambered. This is the way I now do it most of the time because it works for most of all of my guns
END

This works in the dark with staggered rifle mags because prior to loading the bullet will be on the left or right side and after loading it will be on the opposite side of the mag. This can be felt. However with a single feel pistol mag your going to have to visually check the witness holes so its not a good pistol technique because it can't be done in the dark.
Pat

[Bart Noir]

Tamara, that method scares me. I just know I'll end up with the slide snapping shut on my tender pinkey. Been oh-so-careful with it ever since the full-sized crab got aholt of it. For some reason, I never even noticed if he used his left pincer or right one :) Hmmm, never got to even checking if it was a "he". Just yelled, loud.

Actually, I've learned a few things on this thread so I guess I'm not an old dog yet. I'll try those methods y'all have described.

Bart Noir

[Monkeyleg]

Thanks for the photo, Tamara. That was suprisingly easy to do. And I didn't catch my pinkie in the port, either. ;)

[horge]

El Tejon posted:
horge, no, the "pinch" is the technique of placing the forefinger of the support hand on the cap and the thumb inside the trigger guard. Compress the forefinger toward the thumb to press check. (Some leave the thumb out of the guard and use the support hand with forefinger leading to press on the cap.



Thumb inside the trigger guard ...egads.
Well, I've since tried the press-check from underneath as you describe it, at the range, on an unadorned 1911 slide (rented) and oanother one with forward slide grooves. Either way, it takes a bit of getting used to.

I really appreciate all the info.
It helps me on an approaching decision on whether or not to purchase a 1911, which would then be only my second handgun ever.
:)

[JShirley]

For all we know he might think the polymer framed, 22 shot 9x23, compensated 1911 with a holosight

Ooh! Where, where, Larry? Sounds AWESOME!

[wildehond]

Teach yourself to think while you fight.

The things that you do not have time to think about. Well, that you just have to practice until it is instinct. example: You can teach yourself to count 7 rounds, without counting.

Then this 'when to do what' is not an issue.

wildehond.

[1911Tuner]

Wildehond wrote:

Teach yourself to think while you fight.

The things that you do not have time to think about. Well, that you just have to practice until it is instinct. example: You can teach yourself to count 7 rounds, without counting.
----------------------------------------

Wildehond buddy...The more I watch your posts, the more impressed I am by your common sense and logic. You've nailed a point that I've tried to make for years. That is...your sub-concious will put you on auto-pilot, and
it will count rounds, even when you aren't aware of it.

My discipline is to load 7 rounds in the gun and all spares with 6. I fire
three doubles, and alternate it with two triples at multiple targets, reloading with a round in the chamber, safety off. It sets up a cadence that my sub-concious recognizes, and I found my thumb reaching for the mag release at the 6 count while my left hand reached for the spare.
This happened even when I broke the cadence and fired one or two shots at each target...not counting.

I normally use two spares per set, and allow the slide to lock only to signal
the end of the stage by using the last round to ring a steel plate at 25 yards. I've also set up stages for others to use, and their time stops only when the plate is hit AND the slide locks. If the plate is hit, and the slide fails to lock, the shooter must drop the magazine and show the weapon to be clear by manually locking it...and then his time stops. The locked slide is the visual signal that the stage is over and the range is cold. If he
ejects a live round because he thought the pistol was empty, he has 10
points subtracted from his score.

It doesn't require elaborate set-ups on the stage...It's fast-moving, and the shooters all enjoy it. Scoring is as simple as the rings on a B-27 target, with total time subtracted from the score at one point per second, so the
longer the shooter takes to complete the stage, the lower his score...but
the most important thing that it does is to program the shooter to reload
on a hot chamber.

I've always viewed the slidelock function as a stoppage, and have never relied on it to tell me when to reload.

Kudos!

Tuner

[wildehond]

Thanks Tuner.

I am just passing on what I was taught by people better than me.

The exercise you explained sounds very good. I shall try that tomorow at the range.
With a few range setup changes every now and then to keep you thinking.

wildehond.

[355sigfan]

I've always viewed the slidelock function as a stoppage, and have never relied on it to tell me when to reload.
END

I was taught that shooting to slide lock is a shooter induced malfunction. That idea has got me flamed on this board by one particular musician however.
Pat:D

[1911Tuner]

Wildehond said:

The exercise you explained sounds very good. I shall try that tomorow at the range.

Excellent! After runnin' through it a few times smoothly, that you'll
find it a fast method for a reload. If you do it off-safe, be careful to
get your finger clear of the trigger. When the right thumb is used, it
forces you to shift your grip, and it pulls the finger out of the trigger guard
ayway. I also pull downward on the slide release pad as I bring the pistol
back up to eye level to keep myself programmed to release the slide in the event that I screw up and shoot the gun dry.

Use your imagination if you set up a match for a group. Shooting dry
can be a set penalty or just a loss of time...Missing the stop plate can be
a disqualifier or a point penalty. We usually have everybody put a dollar
in the pot, winner take all. Makes us try harder.:D

Luck to ya!

Tuner

[1911Tuner]

Howdy Pat...I can empathize with ya, buddy. Been scorched a time or two
myself. I've even gone so far to say that the slidelock was never intended
to operate on every single magazine. Yes...It's supposed to function, and
if it doesn't it should be fixed. I don't think it should be allowed to function
unless there's no choice.

I've described it as an engineered stoppage like surgery is engineered
trauma. Avoid it if at all possible.:D The thing has a detachable box magazine. Not taking full advantage of it is one of those little things that
can get you dead.

Cheers!
Tuner