CSI reloading and ballistic gel


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cordex
December 18, 2003, 09:38 PM
December 18th CSI shows reloading on a single-stage press (RCBS Rockchucker) and mixing/shooting into ballistic gel.

They went on to make impossible assumptions from the tests, but I thought it was pretty cool.

Anyone else catch this?

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Kcustom45
December 19, 2003, 12:10 AM
Yeah I saw that. I thought the reloading and the shooting into the ballistic gel was cool, but you are right they did make some wild assumptions.

goon
December 19, 2003, 12:19 AM
I saw that too.
It was cool that they showed the handloading, but it was a little off.
I would have thought that they would have sprung for a powder trickler or one of the electronic scales that weighs and measures the charge for you.
That would have been more realistic.

pignock
December 19, 2003, 12:54 AM
What impossible assumptions were made?

I didn't see the show - work 3p-11p.

Thanks,

Keith

Dr.Rob
December 19, 2003, 05:22 AM
Ever seat a 9mm round? It doesn't take the Herculean amount of pressure the actor was using.. but could SEE the RCBS logo on the press.

I thought the Crime Lab could afford a Dillon progressive.

Basicly, the 9mm fmj round only penetrates 4 inches, stops in the victim's heart.. and there is noone around to have fired the shot.

So they figure out how to slow a 9mm down so that it only penetrates 4 inches. Oh, and the bullet is almost pristine, so it's not like the bullet was so badly deformed to have underpenetrated.

Now the funny part is.. they NEVER mention the rifling marks, ballistic fingerprinting etc. Well, see this is a bullet fired from a Sig 226, purchased at Ron's guns last week... hey look that guy lives in the nieghborhood.

Which is what the Feds want you to beleive they can do.

Instead, they do a bunch of reloading, make ballistic gel until they get a bullet that only penetrates 4 inchs, chronoed at 550fps. So, they figure that the bullet was fired from 1800 feet away at almost a 90 degree angle.. they question all the nieghbors and nab the guy, who happens to be a stereotypical bad gun owner.

justashooter
December 19, 2003, 07:11 AM
more hollywood crap.

Matt1911
December 19, 2003, 07:32 AM
Now i remember why i don't watch that show!:D

seeker_two
December 19, 2003, 08:03 AM
Sometimes that show cracks me up...http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/laughing/yelrotflmao.gif

1. When they do their ballistic gelatin test, did anyone see what they used as a backstop? :what:

2. How did they rule out that the bullet in question wasn't fired from a cartridge that didn't have a full charge of powder? (not like they hadn't done it themselves...:rolleyes: )

3. When they came up w/ the arc from which the shooter fired in the air, why didn't they mention things like wind (which can have a significant effect on where said bullet lands)?

4. How did they know it was a 9mm Parabellum bullet? Why not .38 Super or .357SIG? I bet the extra velocity from those could push the arc back a block or two...:scrutiny:

As entertainment, both CSI's are interesting to watch (& pick to pieces :p ). But learning forensic science from this show is about as accurate as learning the law from Matlock...:banghead:

Shawn Dodson
December 19, 2003, 09:23 AM
Basicly, the 9mm fmj round only penetrates 4 inches, stops in the victim's heart.. and there is noone around to have fired the shot.

So they figure out how to slow a 9mm down so that it only penetrates 4 inches. Oh, and the bullet is almost pristine, so it's not like the bullet was so badly deformed to have underpenetrated...

...Instead, they do a bunch of reloading, make ballistic gel until they get a bullet that only penetrates 4 inchs, chronoed at 550fps. So, they figure that the bullet was fired from 1800 feet away at almost a 90 degree angle. The technique shown on CSI is remarkably similar to a method documented in "The Wound Profile & The Human Body: Damage Pattern Correlation," by Martin L. Fackler, published in Wound Ballistics Review, Volume 1, Number 4, 1994, pp. 12-19. It was used to solve two long-range shooting incidents that I'm aware of.

AJ Dual
December 19, 2003, 09:29 AM
DA's are already beginning to loathe the "CSI effect".

Apparently the the more weak minded cud-chewers on juries are letting the show's "Realistic depictions of forensic sicence" inflate thier expectations of what "Beyond a reasonable doubt" means.

:rolleyes:

mtnbkr
December 19, 2003, 09:57 AM
I thought the Crime Lab could afford a Dillon progressive

Why bother though? It's not as if they're loading hundreds of rounds at a time. Anything more than a single stage press is overkill for the use shown on the show.

Chris

winstonsmith
December 19, 2003, 10:05 AM
I like how one of the crime lab dudes cleared a beretta by operating the slide, then dropping the magazine.

"uhh... I thought it wasn't loaded, I didn't mean too"

Sisco
December 19, 2003, 10:34 AM
I watch the show all the time but take everything with a grain of salt.
The thing that always gets me; ever notice how they investigate a darkend room, looking for the smallest piece of evidence by flashlight only? TURN ON THE LIGHTS STUPID!!

SASS#23149
December 19, 2003, 11:12 AM
SISCO
Right on!!!!!!!!!
They just don't seem to understand that rooms have light switches.Duh!!

Prof
December 19, 2003, 02:14 PM
Using flashlights, even in a lighted room, will show up small items and fibers that you cannot see clearly in just a lighted room. Try it yourself. It is an investigative technique which I have seen local detectives use. Whenever I drop a small screw, etc. around my workbench, I always use a Surefire to find it.

MarkDido
December 19, 2003, 02:32 PM
I are a CSI, and also a 23 year veteran of Uncle Sam's Canoe Club / Naval Aviation Division

Consequently, I have NEVER watched an episode of "CSI", "JAG" or "Pensacola, Wings of Gold"

Kcustom45
December 19, 2003, 08:44 PM
I like how one of the crime lab dudes cleared a beretta by operating the slide, then dropping the magazine.
Actually he locked the slide back with the empty mag in the gun then he removed the mag. I don't see a problem with that. And more importantly he kept his finger off the trigger.

I are a CSI
I don't know how I feel about that....Just kidding :D

Win75
December 20, 2003, 09:28 AM
Ever seat a 9mm round? It doesn't take the Herculean amount of pressure the actor was using.. but could SEE the RCBS logo on the press.

You would have thought he was loading a 50 BMG round with the force he used to seat the bullet.

David.

Shooter 2.5
December 20, 2003, 10:49 AM
Gees, you guys are acting like a bunch of elitists.

The reloader didn't use any more pressure on the press than needed. The talble was a little unstable so it rocked. He didn't use two hands.

The 1800 feet had the wind factored in with an arc. Also they probably didn't have the exact direction the lady was standing.

The 80-85 degrees was to her body. A straight in shot would have been 90 degrees.

If they didn't find the guy, they could have started the idea it was a 357 Sig.

The shooter was an idiot. He was no more or less than can be expected from the same type of nut that I see once in a while at the lease I have. They usually don't belong there. They sneak in.

The only reason they factored in the "pristine" appearance was they assumed the bullet didn't hit anything before she was shot. Something like that could have allowed the scenario where the ex or the husband may have shot her.

Good call on the lab setting. On Miami CSI, they move to the range for the tests. The lab assistant didn't have to yell during the tests.

blades67
December 20, 2003, 10:28 PM
It is supposed to be fun to watch, if you're not enjoying it stop watching. Remember, they don't have to be accurate to sell airtime to advertisers.

NukemJim
December 21, 2003, 08:48 AM
Remember, they don't have to be accurate to sell airtime to advertisers.

Clarification please.

Are we talking about the CSI shows or Television News ? :evil: :cuss: :banghead: :fire:

NukemJim

Lone Star
December 21, 2003, 09:15 AM
I saw that show, and wondered how the gun continued to function once they'd dropped the velocity/pressure well below norm for the 9X19 round...

The shooter who was banging away at a target in his urban backyard, without a solid backstop, was such an idiot that the whole episode seemed calculated to bias the public against gun owners.

Still, I often watch, "CSI" when home. I see "CSI Miami" less, because I can't stand David Caruso, who comes across as a burned out cynical smart alec with an attitude problem.

Lone Star

CMcDermott
December 22, 2003, 01:39 AM
Biggest problem I had with the show was the statement that the bullet would normally penetrate 12" into a body. A 9mm FMJ stopping in only 12" ?!? Yes, ammo makers have setup todays self-defense ammo to penetrate 12" into ballisitic geletine because that's what the FBI wants for their ammo and the rest of the LEO community tends to copy the FBI, but that's with hollow-point etc expanding ammo, not FMJ.

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