Piston AR Recommendation


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Hedgemeister
November 4, 2010, 05:00 PM
I am looking to purchase a new piston AR and I am stuck between the POF and LWRC. I have to get a 5.56 as my wife is in the police academy and will be using this rifle on duty. We live in Glendale where POF is based, but my research is pushing me toward the LWRC. Specifically I am looking at the POF 415 and LWRC M6A2. Anyone have experience with these models? This will be our first and only AR at least for awhile. $ is not a factor as we live in the Phoenix metro area and I want her to have the best and most reliable AR out there.

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W.E.G.
November 4, 2010, 05:09 PM
She's only just in the academy, and you are already buying a high-end piston-AR for duty use?

Slow down big hoss.

Does the department not furnish rifles to those who can qualify on them?

I'm sure she will pass the academy with flying colors. That said, do they even let probies carry rifles on the street?

Hedgemeister
November 4, 2010, 05:20 PM
They do not issue duty rifles only Rem 870's, which she will also use. She will not be able to carry it on duty until after probation. I want to get one now so she can become proficient with the rifle and take some carbine courses before she takes it on duty. The AR will also double as a coyote/varmint gun.

W.E.G.
November 4, 2010, 05:30 PM
If you have certain misgivings about either of those guns, maybe if you would state them, folks could address your concerns.

Either rifle is quite expensive, and is from a reputable manufacturer.
I would expect either rifle to perform admirably.

TonyAngel
November 4, 2010, 05:34 PM
What made you decide that you want a piston rifle? If this is for her, she should really get out and check out a few. I'm not an LEO or anything, I live to play with guns and have shot a LOT of different rifles. The only piston guns I've had were conversions, but I've shot the Ruger and LWRC versions. They shot well enough, although I found the recoil impulse to be different. Maybe sharper. Not harder, just sharper. Sort of like the comparison in recoil between a .45 ACP (which is kind of a roll) and a .40 (which is more like a snap). I think a gas AR has more of a roll.

My other observations were that the rifles were heavy. Heavier than a rifle that size should have been. I just don't think that they swing the same, although it may have just been me.

I really DO NOT want to turn this into a gas vs. piston thread, but what makes you assume that a piston is going to be more reliable? Don't get me wrong, piston guns are nice, but they have their own problems too. At least, with a gas rifle, if it stops running a couple drops of lube will get it back in the game again or maybe a change of the gas rings which can be had at a great number of sources. When a piston gun fouls up due to something breaking, it usually means having to get a hold of some proprietary parts.

In any case, I would suggest that your wife check them out first hand before settling on something. Whatever she gets, you should also make sure that her department armorer will be able to service it.

Z-Michigan
November 4, 2010, 05:38 PM
A friend of mine has the POF in both 556 and 762 flavors. Both seem great. Price is sky high, and they are a bit front-heavy.

A professional trainer who I've met a few times has a very dim opinion of POF and has said as much to my friend. I don't have more info than that.

Personally I would get a quality DI AR from any of the top brands, but I'm trying not to veer this thread too much.

Between those two choices, both are expensive, quality rifles, both are rather proprietary. I expect both are fine. If you're only considering those two, I suppose I would go LWRC simply because it seems a bit more "in" with mil and LEO. And that's the extent of it. How many of the piston AR designs really have enough real-world use to say anything meaningful about? IMHO really only the HK416, which is apparently good enough for the USMC, and going a bit broader the FN SCAR although it's an entirely different platform.

stchman
November 4, 2010, 05:41 PM
Ruger's SR556 is a really nice piston driven AR. Bud's has it for $1418 shipped.

IMO piston semi auto rifles are the way to go.

Z-Michigan
November 4, 2010, 05:47 PM
Ruger's SR556 has had a wide range of carrier tilt problems (buffer tube wear), is very front-heavy (hmm, almost a theme) and like most/all piston guns will fry your left hand with 2nd degree burns if your hand slips after shooting a couple of mags quickly, which is a realistic LE training scenario.

For those who must have pistons, I really think the SCAR, and when the price comes down, the Shrubmaster ACR, are where it's at. Or the FN-FAL, which like those two was designed from the ground up with a piston. To me a piston AR makes as much sense as a DI conversion for an M14.

Hedgemeister
November 4, 2010, 05:59 PM
A couple of my concerns are being addressed. The biggest concern I have is reliability. We live in a hot dusty climate and I want the gun to run no matter what. I recognize that both DI and pistons have their pros and cons. I like the fact that the piston rifles do not need lube or cleaning as often. In particular these models have nickel teflon coating that keep lubricity without lube. I was in the military have seen first hand what heat and dirt can do to the DI gun if not properly maintained. Good point on the armory. They only run Colts, so I will have to check on that. I have limited experience with AR's. I have spent a good bit of time with a Colt and that is it. I have done research everywhere and THR seems like the only place you can get an honest and unbiased answer. I looked at the Ruger and they are nice, but I want a 1:7 barrel to shoot the 75 and 77 grains. I am not sure the weight and swing is much of an issue, because this will be her first experience with an AR and she won't know any different.

Z-Michigan
November 4, 2010, 06:06 PM
I am not sure the weight and swing is much of an issue, because this will be her first experience with an AR and she won't know any different.

How strong is your wife? I'm 6' tall, stout, and I would be quite tired trying to run the POF for an 8-hour training day. Sure, I can run it in competition just fine, which is 1-3 minute increments, and in an actual LE scenario it might be OK since those aren't likely to last real long either - but in formal training it would get very tiring to the point of affecting performance. It's very different from casual shooting or hunting. I first learned this point when I tried to run a 6" Ruger GP100 revolver (approx 49oz) in a CPL class - bad idea. That was sure fun trying to hold in designated shooting positions for a couple minutes at a time. Yet I can shoot it perfectly fine in any casual setting.

I'm not trying to lecture, and I don't know if the LWRC is similarly front heavy. Just be sure to really, really handle the POF and try holding it in a shooting position nonstop for a couple minutes to be sure that the weight and balance is not an issue.

Hedgemeister
November 4, 2010, 06:13 PM
It's all good, I did notice the POF was 1/2 pound heavier than the LWRC.

TonyAngel
November 4, 2010, 06:25 PM
Hedgemeister, I'm not trying to argue with you, but just playing devil's advocate. Like I said, I've never been to the "sand box" or on patrol, but I do live to play with guns. I'll say this, I don't think there's any such thing as a rifle that will run no matter what.

Yes, there are piston guns (and DI rifles) that come with uber coatings that apply a permanent lube to the parts etc, but these coatings only work when the parts are clean. It does NOT guarantee that the rifle will run no matter what. Lubing gun parts does two things. First it lubes. The second is that it provides a means for the action of the rifle to displace crud/dirt as it builds up. Of course, some lube works and lasts longer than others, but that is a topic for another discussion.

My point is that even a piston gun is going to need maintenance. I don't care if it's piston operated or not. If you're running it dry and a good bit of crud/sand/dirt builds up in the locking lugs (or elsewhere) and there's no way to displace it, it's going to stop running at some point. In a couple of extreme cases, with the owner believing that the rifle didn't need maintenance, I've seen pistons lock up. I'm talking about the op rod refusing to move. The moral of my rant is that both are going to need lube and I don't think that there is any concrete data that would indicate that one system is more reliable than the other, assuming proper care.

I think the important thing is to get her a rifle that fits her and that she can be proficient with. If she is on the petite side, a front heavy rifle may not be the way to go. A front heavy 7lb rifle swings like crap compared to a well balanced 8lb rifle. A well balanced 7lb rifle works like an extension of your body. I don't think that anyone can call any piston gun well balanced. It may not matter to a 180lb guy that trains with the rifle everyday, but for a 125lb lady who only has to qualify with the rifle twice (once?) a year, it may matter.

Since it appears that cost is no object, if a piston gun is engraved in your mind, I'd go LWRC. If you are open to options, I'd be looking at Noveske or Daniel Defense. Noveske and Daniel Defense may not offer anything more than the likes of Bravo Company, in terms of reliability, but having the name may give you piece of mind. It seems to me that a Colt would be the logical choice, since the armorer already works on them and is probably familiar with any quirks (if any) that the Colts may have.

Personally, I don't buy ARs. I build mine, but if I were to buy one, I'd buy it from either Bravo Company or Spike's Tactical and for a couple of reasons. Both build excellent rifles and with both, most problems are handled with a phone call that usually results in replacements being sent out right away.

Hedgemeister
November 4, 2010, 07:05 PM
Tony, good points. This rifle will be meticulously maintained as her life may depend on it. So I guess I just like the peace of mind of the NP3 coating. I did not realize the weight and swing would be a concern. I am 220 lbs though and my wife is 135. I think as someone mentioned to try them first. I know I can rent them at Scottsdale Gun Club here.

TonyAngel
November 4, 2010, 07:10 PM
Bud, it just needs to be maintained. I understand your concern, but perhaps you are over thinking this. Go with quality (there's lots out there) and she'll be fine. Just FYI, I haven't cleaned my home built carbine in over 3000 rounds. I shoot all sorts of crap ammo through it and all I do is keep adding lube every 500 rounds or so (I use Slip 2000) and it keeps on running. The barrel is bushmaster, the upper is Daniel Defense and the lower is Spike's Tactical. What brand would you say my rifle is? I don't know, but it does have quality parts that keep doing what they are supposed to.

Good luck to your wife!!

W.E.G.
November 4, 2010, 07:36 PM
She should not show up with any equipment that is "better" or more expensive than the equipment used by her training officer.

I understand the objective is "survival."

A noobie officer needs to fit-in to have the best chances of surviving.

Quentin
November 4, 2010, 07:49 PM
I also recommend that for a first AR it's best not to go with a piston version - instead learn how to run a high quality standard DI rifle. With proper maintanence and training it will perform as well as any firearm you could want. No need to blaze a new path especially for a rookie officer, there are reasons LE and the miltary go with DI and it's not just cost.

Definitely have her rent guns at the Scottsdale club and choose the barrel profile and balance she likes best. It's almost certain a DI will be easier for her to wield. You're not going to find much better or more reliable than BCM, Daniel Defense and Colt.

Hedgemeister
November 4, 2010, 08:05 PM
Thanks for the advice. It sounds like I am overthinking it a bit. The DI guns certainly are a lot cheaper. Off to the range.

Quentin
November 4, 2010, 08:38 PM
Good call, HM! If at all possible try to find a BCM 14.5" or 16" LW midlength (midlength gas system instead of carbine length - the gas tube is 2" longer making a softer shooting AR). Lots of rave reviews for the BCM and Daniel Defense LW middies from people carry an AR seriously.

And a rookie with a quality rifle like that will get nods of approval from people in the know.

deadduck357
November 4, 2010, 09:04 PM
Ruger's SR556 has had a wide range of carrier tilt problems (buffer tube wear), is very front-heavy (hmm, almost a theme) and like most/all piston guns will fry your left hand with 2nd degree burns if your hand slips after shooting a couple of mags quickly, which is a realistic LE training scenario.


I have 3 SR-556's and have experienced non of which you mentioned.

SR-556 left and SR-556C right
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/4024/63599602.jpg

SR-556 6.8spc
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/9429/dsc01058copy.jpg

wally
November 4, 2010, 10:05 PM
I've a Ruger SR-556 and a CMMG M4-gery piston ARs. I'm very happy with both, they do stay a lot cleaner and are a bit front heavy.

The CMMG is available as an upper only, which is how I bought mine.

strambo
November 4, 2010, 10:29 PM
As the owner of a fairly high end piston (LMT MRP), I'd recommend something like a BCM 14.5" middy for this. Light, handy, reliable, soft shooting and waaay less expensive. It doesn't have to be meticulously maintained either. A BCM middy has been run hard in EAG carbine courses as a loaner with I think one cleaning and over 31,000 rds.

Use the savings on ammo/training for her and her survivability percentage will go way up vs getting a rifle that costs 2X as much (that adds maybe a few percentage points more theoretical reliability) and not much $ left for training/ammo.

If money is no object, I could see getting an LWRC and then sending her to a top carbine school.

benEzra
November 4, 2010, 11:13 PM
I like the fact that the piston rifles do not need lube or cleaning as often. In particular these models have nickel teflon coating that keep lubricity without lube. I was in the military have seen first hand what heat and dirt can do to the DI gun if not properly maintained.
A DI gun with the same type of self-lubricating coating (e.g., Fail Zero) will have the same characteristics. That is a function of the parts coatings, not a function of DI vs forward-mounted piston. Heat and dirt would cause a neglected, uncoated piston gun to fail in the exact same manner that DI guns fail.

Generally speaking, AR failures are primarily due to (1) questionable magazines, (2) improper assembly, (3) substandard/damaged/worn-out parts, often in combination with failure to properly lubricate. None of those problems have much to do with the DI system. Use Pmags, check the gas key and castle nut staking, and buy from a Tier 1 manufacturer (mainly the bolt carrier group), and a DI rifle will be as reliable as any piston AR, IMO. As others have suggested, a midlength gas system will probably be a bit more durable than a carbine length gas system, assuming a 16" barrel.

FWIW, if you want to read up on AR's and the pros/cons of the various manufacturers, you may want to check out the AR Technical Discussion and AR General Discussion forums on www.m4carbine.net.

TonyAngel
November 5, 2010, 01:27 AM
Oh man, definitely check out some flavor of carbine with a mid length gas system. I built one using mostly Bravo Company parts not too long ago. VERY smooth shooting. I could go through 500 rounds with very little shooter fatigue and I'm a small guy. 5'2" and go 150-160lbs, depending on how good dinner has been lately.

LRS_Ranger
November 5, 2010, 01:38 AM
Originally Posted by Z-Michigan View Post
Ruger's SR556 has had a wide range of carrier tilt problems (buffer tube wear), is very front-heavy (hmm, almost a theme) and like most/all piston guns will fry your left hand with 2nd degree burns if your hand slips after shooting a couple of mags quickly, which is a realistic LE training scenario.
What piston gun burns your left hand, and why would it do that? No matter how hot I get the barrel on my LWRC, I have never burned either hand. In fact, being able to pull the carrier after 4 fast mags and still have it cool to the touch is pretty neat. No mess, no heat, and tons of lube still on everything. It is a little heavy, but I think it's the heavy barrel. Get a comparable barrel, and I don't think that it would be really any heavier than a DI..

Back to the OP, I would say get an LWRC, POF has had some shoddy QC issues, and the one friend that I had that owned one sold it, I don't remember the specifics of why. He always said he would get an LWRC next time he was getting an AR. My LWRC runs like a champ, I wish ammo was free and I could run it till it broke.. I imagine I would be shooting for a while...

HorseSoldier
November 5, 2010, 02:04 AM
it just needs to be maintained.

A patrol rifle typically rides in a rack in the car or in the trunk and never, ever gets as dirty as M4s I was issued on the .mil side that ran just fine with minimal maintenance.

She should not show up with any equipment that is "better" or more expensive than the equipment used by her training officer.

Additional considerations are

A) Besides whether or not the department issues patrol carbines, there's the other issues of whether or not they have an approved list of carbines, and whether or not they have anyone trained to do armorer level inspections and maintenance on the weapon.

B) Is she even going to be allowed carry a patrol carbine right out of the academy, or is it something the department won't clear until after she finishes Field Training? My department limits recruits in field training to handguns and shotguns for liability reasons. I'd think that's fairly common.

She should not show up with any equipment that is "better" or more expensive than the equipment used by her training officer.

That shouldn't matter to an FTO who has any business doing the job (which, of course, doesn't mean it won't matter, depending on the luck of the draw and how stingent her department is with who it lets FTO), but I do agree she'd be better off showing up with some piece of mid-priced kit she is expert with than some very expensive piece of kit she can't run competently.

Hedgemeister
November 5, 2010, 02:51 AM
Horse, she does have to finish field training before she can carry on duty and I am wanting to send her to a carbine course i.e. Gunsite here in AZ prior to her using it on duty to make sure she is comfortable and proficient with the weapon. Her department has a liberal policy in that it has to be an ar-15 and 5.56. She of course will have to qualify with it.

Ben, Tony and Strambo, I have been doing research on the midlength system and the reviews have been very good. I do like the fact that I can purchase a Daniel Defense and send her to the Gunsite course for the price of an LWRC. I read an interesting interview with Noveske and his take on the piston system. I checked and the amorer will not work on piston guns, so we would be left on our own for that.

1858
November 5, 2010, 06:07 AM
Hedgemeister, I have a couple of POF ARs ... one is a P415 and the other is a P308. I can see why many don't like gas piston rifles but I definitely like mine ... a lot. I've got about 1,000 rounds through my P415 now (about 500 though the P308) and I couldn't be happier with them. I typically shoot 150 rounds per session and everything is working as it should with zero issues. Accuracy with XM193 is around 2" at 100 yards but with reloads I'm under 1". The POF muzzle brake does a great job of reducing recoil.

:)

Al Thompson
November 5, 2010, 09:20 AM
I do like the fact that I can purchase a Daniel Defense and send her to the Gunsite course for the price of an LWRC

IMHO, that's a major win situation right there. :)

Zerodefect
November 5, 2010, 01:23 PM
Just get a Colt 6920. One of the very few AR's I know I can bet my life on.



A good rifle to grow with. You can upgrade grips, stocks, forearms later. The 6920 lacks a proper ambi safety, but those are cheap, and the Colt safety lever can be put in backwards for lefties.

If your into pistons get an XCR, 556, Scar, or ACR. The AR15 is best as a DI gun.


Speaking of training, check out TDI or Magpul Dynamics.

Z-Michigan
November 5, 2010, 02:04 PM
Colt 6920 is unquestionably good, but the midlength gas system is pretty well proven as superior in a 16" rifle, and midlength options of top quality are available from BCM, Daniel Defense and I believe Noveske, and very good midlength options are also available from Armalite and Sabre.

Quentin
November 5, 2010, 02:51 PM
Ben, Tony and Strambo, I have been doing research on the midlength system and the reviews have been very good. I do like the fact that I can purchase a Daniel Defense and send her to the Gunsite course for the price of an LWRC. I read an interesting interview with Noveske and his take on the piston system. I checked and the amorer will not work on piston guns, so we would be left on our own for that.

Hey, Hedge! I was first to recommend a midlength! :p

Good to see you're coming around to a quality DI midlength, I think she'll be pleased with a DD. I would again suggest a LW barrel profile, hopefully you'll be able to handle one when you're at the gun club comparing.

And if the department armorer doesn't work on piston AR, that pretty much excludes them from consideration unless you want to take on that responsibility. Actually I'm kind of torn on that issue anyway and don't let anyone else dink around with my AR. Just too many stories of swapped parts and mistakes like enlarging gas ports, etc.

possum
November 5, 2010, 02:57 PM
i have no desire for a piston AR but if ihad to have one for whatever reason, i would go with the Barrett rec-7.

basicblur
November 5, 2010, 03:21 PM
Thought you might be interested in this article (http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?81462-So-you-want-to-buy-an-AR-15-huh)-supposedly written by an officer building/buying a patrol rifle-mebbe his experience would translate to your wife's needs?

Blasphemy alert-he does stray from THE CHART! :D
'Course, he's building/buying for a specific use, which might match your wife's?
Might be some good tips AFA patrol rifles?

Hedgemeister
November 6, 2010, 03:32 PM
Thanks again everyone. We have not made it to the gun club yet, but we were at Cabelas last night and my wife was able to handle a POF and a couple M&P's. Well she definitely liked the feel of the DI guns better and even I noticed a significant difference in handling characteristics. We are definitely leaning DI now. I saw a midlength Daniel Defense online at Buds Gun shop for $1149 and that seems like a good price for what you get. All that being said, that POF sure was nice and I would like to have one someday.

Hedgemeister
November 6, 2010, 09:55 PM
Pulled the trigger on the Daniel Defense. In particular the M4 V3 midlength with the 9 inch rail. Now I just need an Eotech and she should be good to go. I started a piston thread and bought a DI. Funny how things work out sometimes.

Hatterasguy
November 6, 2010, 10:53 PM
LWRC, they have seen a bit of combat use at this point. IMHO they are the best piston AR I have come across. I would say the closes competition would be the HK416, which you can't get in this country.

Zerodefect
November 7, 2010, 12:17 PM
Pulled the trigger on the Daniel Defense. In particular the M4 V3 midlength with the 9 inch rail. Now I just need an Eotech and she should be good to go. I started a piston thread and bought a DI. Funny how things work out sometimes.

Good choice.
Wise is a man that asks advice, then follows it.

The newest Eotech with the stubby little round sideways battery compartment is pretty cool.

http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=379

benEzra
November 7, 2010, 02:04 PM
An explanation of the somewhat arcane Eotech model numbering may be found in this post (scroll about halfway through).

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6637932&postcount=9

Your wife will need to figure out if she prefers a lower 1/3 cowitness vs absolute cowitness, and whether QD is a necessity or not. I personally went with a 516 (2 CR123 batteries, single dot in circle, lower 1/3 cowitness without a separate mount, no NVG mode) but there are a variety of good choices. BTW, don't rule out Aimpoints, either; I prefer the Eotech reticle, but Aimpoint CompM's and Micro's are also very good, and offer extreme battery life (5 years!), and some people like the simplicity of a single dot and consider the Eotech reticle cluttered. So I'd suggest checking out both, since the optic is a significant investment too.

Also, don't forget a light and a decent sling. I run a Surefire G3 LED (though most prefer the shorter G2) in a GG&G ring, and a Blue Force Tactical 2-point Vickers style sling from their economy Victory Series line. The light is arguably more important than the optic or sling for a patrol or HD rifle, IMO.

Al Thompson
November 8, 2010, 03:09 PM
Do some research before you buy an Eotech. There's a reason not many are purchased by the military and why several top notch trainers do not recommend them.

In my personal opinion, having to turn your sight on would be issue enough. With Aimpoints, turn it on and leave it on. Change the battery every couple of years, no issues.

Quentin
November 8, 2010, 03:23 PM
Quote: Originally Posted by Hedgemeister
Pulled the trigger on the Daniel Defense. In particular the M4 V3 midlength with the 9 inch rail. Now I just need an Eotech and she should be good to go. I started a piston thread and bought a DI. Funny how things work out sometimes.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zerodefect
Good choice.
Wise is a man that asks advice, then follows it...

Yes, excellent choice and I hope it serves your wife well...

Hedgemeister
November 8, 2010, 05:44 PM
We should have it by the end of the week and we will be going to the range to play with her new toy this weekend. I sure am glad I married a country girl from Arkansas. She loves guns as much as I do. I have a friend that is willing to sell a Compm4. The reviews on THR look pretty good would this be a good cowitness red dot for LEO?

Z-Michigan
November 8, 2010, 06:34 PM
Yes, a Comp M4 would be a very good quality choice. If money is no object (since it's about the most expensive red dot there is) go for it.

Al Thompson
November 8, 2010, 08:46 PM
Ditto to what Z-M said. For a mount, LaRue is about the best, though if your not mounting and dismounting the sight, the Burris offerings are working for me. :)

Hedgemeister
November 8, 2010, 10:59 PM
Al, Where are you at in SC? I graduated from Wofford up in Spartanburg.

After looking into the aimpoints, I think I am sold. I like that it is lighter and the battery life is a big plus. Thanks Ben for the headsup.

Z-Michigan
November 8, 2010, 11:43 PM
Hedgemeister - before you get that CompM4, depending how good a deal it is, be sure to check out the Aimpoint Micro and the slightly older CompM3, which is just as durable as the M4 and has "only" 50k hours of battery life (5.7 years instead of about 9... and if you let either battery reach those ages, you should not have bought an Aimpoint in the first place.)

Oh, FYI, I actually prefer EOTechs pretty strongly, but I'm not mil or LEO so presumably I'm not quite as hard on the optic. Whatever you get, a BUIS is essential. (The one and only possible exception to BUIS is with an ACOG, and even then it's not a bad idea.)

Hedgemeister
November 9, 2010, 12:37 AM
Z, the deal on the M4 fell through. Good call on the M3 I can get it brand new for $450 and am seriously considering it. $200 less than the M4. Her DD comes with the 1.5 BIUS and we want a cowitness setup.

strambo
November 9, 2010, 01:42 AM
I got the H1 Aimpoint w/ Larue mount. Saved a little money over the T1 for features I'll never use (night vision settings and deeper submersion rating). I leave it on setting "8" because it isn't too bright at night, but bright enough to see the dot on my wall with the weapon light on. This setting also has 5 years battery life according to the Aimpoint Rep/Gunsight instructor I talked with over the summer while taking a course.

Nice choice on the DD M4, that should be a great rifle.

Z-Michigan
November 9, 2010, 10:21 AM
Any Aimpoint will cowitness if you get the proper mount. Consensus seems to be that LaRue is the best mount. I think you and she will be quite happy with an M3.

kwelz
November 9, 2010, 10:24 AM
Z, I think a lot of people are starting to prefer ADM to Larue. They are the same quality and use a better lockup system that won't leave marks on your Upper reciever.

For the Micro's I actually use the DD mount myself. I don't need the QD for that optic and it is a very light inexpensive mount.

Z-Michigan
November 9, 2010, 11:30 AM
Thanks Azizza, good info. I do not own mounts from either LaRue or ADM or frankly most other big names... I put EOTechs on my fancy carbines (mount is built in) and something else, like a Vortex Strikefire (mount included), on casual/fun carbines. However, if I were a LEO in Phoenix, I'd probably break down and get a single Aimpoint in light of its known reliability.

Nom de Forum
November 9, 2010, 02:07 PM
You literally asked for recommendations on piston ARs. After reading the thread are you not really asking for a recommendation for an AR your wife can depend on to be reliable, accurate, and comfortable for her to shoot? If that is what you are looking for, then I suggest a top tier DI. I think she will find DI rifles better handling. If money is not a problem, I doubt she will want anything else after she shoots a KAC SR-15. They have them at US Autoweapons in Scottsdale according to the email I received today. I purchased mine from SGC a couple months back and it is without a doubt very "user friendly". They are not cheap, but considering what they have as standard features they are a bargain. Some variation of the E3 bolt design may be the future for all ARs.

Hedgemeister
November 9, 2010, 03:32 PM
Nom, based on your comments it appears that you have not read the thread. I was going to buy a piston AR, but based on some help here and speaking to the armorer at her department, we decided on a DI gun. The KAC is nice, but we already bought a DD that should be here tom. Their E3 bolt looks promising but I will wait to see more testing done.

Hedgemeister
November 9, 2010, 04:21 PM
Ended up getting the eotech xps-2. The deal was too good to pass up. $342 after rebate with shipping. If anyone is looking for this eotech you can get at Botactical for this price. Just use the coupon code eotech at checkout. Thanks one last time for everyones help. I saved a ton of money by asking a few questions.

Z-Michigan
November 9, 2010, 04:32 PM
That's funny, I have an XPS2-2 waiting to be mounted on my #1 carbine. I think it's a great sight, and love the EOTech 552 I've been using for a couple years.

basicblur
November 10, 2010, 10:12 PM
Ended up getting the eotech xps-2. The deal was too good to pass up. $342 after rebate with shipping.
Hey Hedgemeister...did you catch the $50 rebate PDF at EOTech's site (http://www.eotech-inc.com/index.php)?

Your mention of the discount at Botach got me interested in Botach's discount, and I ran across the EOTech rebate. Don't know if you can get both, but I don't see why not? Only problem I might see is if Botach is not an authorized EOTech dealer. I haven't read the fine print on the downloadable PDF rebate form-I may call EOTech tomorrow to see if the $50 rebate can be applied to Botach purchases.

Thanks for the heads up on the Botach discount-I didn't dig too much, but saw no mention of it at their site, but when I tossed an EOTech in the cart and applied EOTECH as the coupon code, looks like 'bout a 20% discount-$50 on top of that would be sweet.

Hedgemeister
November 11, 2010, 01:50 PM
Basic, you should get the rebate. I found out about it over on arizonashooters forum and there were a few guys that bought them and got the rebate. I was leaning hard towards aimpoint but this deal was just too good.

cemjr
November 11, 2010, 03:55 PM
I hope you have better luck with Botach than I did. Canceled my order after waiting for ten days to be told my order wouldn't be filled for about another week.

skibud85
November 13, 2010, 12:03 AM
I have the LWRC M6A2 (5.56mm) Pistol. A very nice gun but customer support is very poor at LWRC. I also have a LWRC carbine, and have never had a problem with it.

Problem #1).The gun has been back to LWRC once, for a FEED problem they fixed. It took months to get it back, they never updated me via e-mail, phone or letter. The shop I bought the gun at called LWRC to check on the status, at first they couldn't find it and didn't seemed concerned till ATF and a lost gun was mentioned. And after all this it still took afew weeks and more phonecalls till they had an answer on the status. When the gun was shipped back ,not so much as a phonecall, e-mail or letter was included to apologize for the delay and problems on a very expensive gun.

Problem #2). The Quad Rail is out of spec. The top and bottom are fine, it is the side rails that are too large. Soft mounts fit fine, but anything that is rigid will not fit on the side rails. I discovered this when I tried using GEAR SECTOR mounts. They fit on the top and bottom, but will not fit on the SIDE rails. LWRC sent a second Quad rail, it had the same problem. The shop even had a second LWRC pistol in stock, it had the same problem with the side rails being out of spec. GEAR SECTOR was contacted(a great company), and advised of the situation. They offered a full refund of the used parts and assured me their product was within Picatinny specs. The thing that really soured me on LWRC was the e-mail I received, explaining I was the ONLY PERSON IN THE WORLD that was having this problem, and the boys in Tech were not going to jump out of their seats to change anything for one person. Now in my opinion, if I was running the show at LWRC I would fix the gun of the only pain in the ass with the problem, and it would be done with. Unless of course, I am not the only one with the problem!! But, I am the only one that has brought it to the attention of LWRC???????????????????? Sounds like it might be something to fix when the next run of quad rails are manufactured. I was going to post the letter, but decided not to. If you want to see it, drop me a message and I can forward it too you:confused:

I like the products LWRC has, just not very impressed with customer support.
I hope I am the only one with the problem, but I doubt it. I find it very difficult to recommend a great product like LWRC when I have been very disappointed by their support policy?

Z-Michigan
November 13, 2010, 12:24 AM
Interesting post about LWRC; probably belongs more in a separate thread given that this thread is largely concluded.

I have observed from reading posts (not personal experience, much) that it seems many of the "most prestigious" rifle makers that get government contracts and lots of fanboy attention also seem to have a reputation for providing poor service to individual civilians who happen to purchase their product. I've read this (and again, no personal experience) regarding Knight's, HK, LMT, and Colt, among others. In contrast some companies like Armalite really do a great job on customer service, but don't seem to have the fanboy reputation or the lucrative government contracts. I haven't read anything negative in this regard about BCM or DD, which is why one of those would be my most likely choice among higher-end AR makers.

1858
November 13, 2010, 03:45 PM
I haven't read anything negative in this regard about BCM or DD, which is why one of those would be my most likely choice among higher-end AR makers.

I wonder how many people choose a particular firearm manufacturer over another based on their perception of how good that manufacturer's customer support is. I can honestly say that CS doesn't enter into my decision process.

:)

kwelz
November 13, 2010, 03:50 PM
I wonder how many people choose a particular firearm manufacturer over another based on their perception of how good that manufacturer's customer support is. I can honestly say that CS doesn't enter into my decision process.

Amen to that. If you buy quality in the first place you probably won't need Customer support.

NWCP
November 13, 2010, 09:02 PM
I like my Stag Arms Model 8. It's been a pleasure to own and shoot. First 700 rounds through it and no issues.

skibud85
November 13, 2010, 09:32 PM
CS is important only if you need it-AND I NEEDED IT ON MY LWRC PISTOL- and it wasn't there! The people I talked to were always very nice and tried to help. I just found it very strange, when we discovered the spec issues on their side rails of the QUAD RAIL, they agreed it was a problem but had no intension of fixing it for one person that was complaining????????????????? I think they have great products, and won't badmouth the product or the people. But, I will tell the people that ask me about LWRC what I think of the support philosophy they have.

In the future I will give my business to other companies. I also have afew LMT's, and plan on buying afew more in the near future. For the time being,LWRC is out of the running for my money.

LWRC has nice products, just be aware of CS.

Z-Michigan
November 13, 2010, 10:16 PM
I wonder how many people choose a particular firearm manufacturer over another based on their perception of how good that manufacturer's customer support is. I can honestly say that CS doesn't enter into my decision process.

Well, to each their own. I always buy quality and have not yet needed any customer service, but I will not seriously consider Knight's or HK because of their poor reputations for repair service to civilians. Have you ever read Correia's rant "HK, because you suck and we hate you?" It's dated but I think accurate.

stchman
November 14, 2010, 01:23 AM
Amen to that. If you buy quality in the first place you probably won't need Customer support.


Most asinine statement I have ever heard.

So a quality firearm it is impossible to have defects?

kwelz
November 14, 2010, 01:33 AM
How about reading what I said before throwing around insults. I said probably. As in most likely, but not 100%.

Some companies need good CS because they have a much higher rate of defects. They shore up their bad QC with good CS. It is a bad way to run a business but it fools enough people to succeed.

I would rather have a good product where 1 out of 10,000 goes back and have the company be a pain to deal with than a company that has 1 out of 500 go back and is a pleasure to deal with when it happens.

FlyinBryan
November 14, 2010, 01:51 AM
I wonder how many people choose a particular firearm manufacturer over another based on their perception of how good that manufacturer's customer support is. I can honestly say that CS doesn't enter into my decision process.

cant honestly say its even ever crossed my mind now that you mention it.

i suppose it would only enter into the mix if i'd heard a particular company left folks hung out to dry. luckily i havent been treated badly yet

skibud85
November 15, 2010, 11:59 AM
LWRC did leave me hanging out to dry, but they were nice about it::what: They admitted in writing they had a spec. problem on their side rails, but didn't plan on doing anything about it.:banghead: Like I said, I have a full size AR from LWRC that works great, but then I never needed CS on it yet:confused: For LWRC's sake, hopefully I am (like they said) the only person in the world that had a problem they couldn't and wouldn't fix. Do your research, and buy quality... and most of the time you will be OK.:D

Z-Michigan
November 15, 2010, 12:04 PM
I would rather have a good product where 1 out of 10,000 goes back and have the company be a pain to deal with than a company that has 1 out of 500 go back and is a pleasure to deal with when it happens.

IMHO you need to strike a balance. I won't buy junk no matter how good the repair policy, but if I pay premium prices for something and I happen to draw a lemon, I expect it to be fixed right, immediately, and without hassle.

If a company is truly premium quality, they should get so few returns that anything returned for repair would get immediate attention since there would be no backlog.

Conversely, if a company regularly puts out junk, I would expect its repair department to be massively backlogged and therefore provide slow, poor service.

Using some inductive reasoning, it would seem likely that in most cases, if a company provides prompt, no-hassle repair service, they probably are putting out a pretty good product. And vice-versa.

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