Auto Ordnance M1 Carbine Barrel Fouled


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gdesloge
November 5, 2010, 10:00 AM
Does anyone have experience with Auto Ordnance?

A new M1 Carbine has a black residue in the bore, and I have been working literally for hours to clean the bore. This concerns me on a new rifle.

The black residue has been stubborn, and I have used a bronze brush with solvents (#9, Hoppe's Elite, Rem 40-X, Kroil) with more passes than I would prefer.

I have never fired this rifle, and it was purchased new.

I have made progress, but the bore does not resemble clean.

I have a call in to the manufacturer, and I am awaiting a call back from them.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

gd

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Acera
November 5, 2010, 10:49 AM
Does the residue appear to be left over from a sloppy coating operation at the factory?

Does it have a build up that could be restricting the bore?

Why not shoot it, and then clean it later. The guns barrel does not have to be perfectly clean to shoot, just free from obstructions.

Go easy on the bore brush, you could be causing more damage than good.

JMHO.

gdesloge
November 5, 2010, 11:02 AM
Thank you -

I have always been cautious with a brush, but the barrel looked awful and I was concerned about a restriction in the bore.

I do not know what the material is, and it has been very trying to remove it. The rifle is not blued, but has a rough-textured coating on the outside. It has almost a "sparkly" appearance, in that the texture glints like granite. This may have been the culprit, and the patches swabbed through after a brush emerge black.

I may shoot it at this stage, but I was concerned about a problem in the manufacturing process. I have been careful with the brush, but it has been more work and cleaning than I am accustomed to for a new rifle.

WardenWolf
November 5, 2010, 01:24 PM
Sounds like it was parkerized. It's possible the barrel was not properly plugged when the gun was parkerized and it got into the bore. I'd say call Auto Ordnance.

gdesloge
November 5, 2010, 01:27 PM
Thanks, WW. I have come to that conclusion, also. I appreciate your response.

gd

dfariswheel
November 5, 2010, 11:54 PM
Stop with the brush.

What you're probably seeing is fouling caused by the brush itself.
When you run a bronze brush down the bore it leaves a thin layer of bronze that will cause a patch to come out dark.
Just use a bore solvent that you can leave in the bore for a while.
Run a wet patch through the bore and let it soak at least 30 minutes. (READ THE LABEL ON THE BOTTLE FOR SAFE SOAK TIMES).

After soaking, wet a clean patch and run it straight through and out the end.
Look for any blue or green stains that indicate copper fouling.
If none are present, run a couple of dry patches and check the bore.

If the bore still looks rough or dark, contact Auto Ordnance. As above, the parkerizing solution may have somehow leaked into the bore during manufacture.

gdesloge
November 6, 2010, 09:56 AM
dfaris -

Thank you for the response.

I have concluded that the fouling is from the parkerizing process. It appeared in the bore like splatters of varying size (as though someone had shaken a tar-coated paint brush at it).

I did call Auto Ordnance, and there response was that it most likely was the result of the coating process. They suggested that I shoot it, and that they had fired it when it was manufactured, so it would be safe to do so.

I must say that I am surprised that a rifle in this condition would have been shipped to a customer.

In the cleaning process, there has been no green residue on the patches, only black. I do believe that I have loosened it by the use of the brush, and it has been quite stubborn.

It was suggested to use a bit of bore paste, and I may do that, although possibly after I shoot it. The bore appears much better, and I do not know if I would have been comfortable shooting it in its original condition.

I will try to give a follow up report about this. It has been, needless to say, a bit frustrating to experience this with a new rifle.

Thanks again,

gd

P.S. I have used #9 and Hoppe's Elite and Rem 40-X Bore Cleaner and Kroil in this process.

longdayjake
November 6, 2010, 10:04 AM
Well, the rifle isn't going to be a tack driver with or without the park done badly but it really would have bothered me to have gotten a rifle in that condition. I would have sent it back. You might as well just shoot it. Hopefully it works for you.

gdesloge
November 6, 2010, 10:23 AM
I am going to shoot it, and, if I am unhappy about its performance, I will ask for a replacement.

gd

Mags
November 6, 2010, 12:20 PM
Who knows maybe putting some rounds through it might wear of the parkerizing in the bore?

pikid89
November 6, 2010, 12:28 PM
Who knows maybe putting some rounds through it might wear of the parkerizing in the bore?

what about some of those bore polishing bullets you can load up

http://www.davidtubb.com/finalfinish.html

dogrunner
November 6, 2010, 01:48 PM
You are far more patient than I'd be under those circumstances. Foremost, that gun was finished in an improper and hasty fashion. While it no doubt is safe to shoot I believe that you'll find that the bore will NEVER smooth out. That parkerized finish actually produces tiny imperfections in the host metal and surely can't help the accuracy of the firearm....True, the .30 carbine is not noted for bench rest accuracy, but you as the customer have a right to expect a properly finished product.

T'were it me I'd call and demand to speak to the the chief executive and push the issue by demanding the company either replace that barrel or send me a new rifle. If I experienced clear foot dragging I'd take the matter to the next level and start writing letters to EVERY gun magazine I could find, if that still produced no results I'd file a claim in civil court (which you can do yourself!).

No company of any note wants that sort of bad PR....likely you will reach a quick and satisfactory solution with a few phone calls!

Regardless, the LAST thing I'd do would be to follow the suggestions of the clod you spoke to that suggested that you just accept that crappy workmanship!!!!

By the way, the very last thing I'd do is to shoot that thing pending some resolution!!

ulflyer
November 6, 2010, 05:09 PM
Better yet, demand your money back and buy an original M1 Carbine and have money left over for ammo. I have several of them, only a few valued over $700.

dfariswheel
November 6, 2010, 08:09 PM
There are several reasons why barrels that are being parkerized are plugged to keep the solution out.

One is the park builds up a coating and that actually under-sizes the bore.
Possibly enough to be unsafe.

The second reason is because it etches the metal and leaves permanent tiny pit-like roughness wherever it touched the metal. This will make the barrel harder to clean and susceptible to rusting and real pitting.

I'd be sending this back to the factory, and I'd expect them to send you a UPS pickup tag so you don't have to spend your money on shipping.

Bottom line: You paid good money for a good rifle.....you didn't get it.

gdesloge
November 6, 2010, 08:52 PM
Thank you, guys.

I do believe that I will make another call to them on Monday and give them a chance to make this right.

I will not shoot it until this is resolved.

gd

Snowdog
November 7, 2010, 01:45 AM
Well, if it's any light at the end of the tunnel, my AO/Kahr M1 carbine as been an absolute joy to shoot, noticably more accurate than GI and Universal M1 carbines I've owned or borrowed. My bore is excellent and has a mirror shine and it was received this way.

Once you work through whatever issues you're having now, I suspect you'll quite like your AO M1 carbine just as I love mine.

Sunray
November 7, 2010, 01:00 AM
"...the parkerizing solution may have..." Maybe, but not likeky and it won't bother anything if it did. Certainly not unsafe. My .243's barrel got black phosphated(same thing, different chemicals) because I didn't plug the muzzle correctly. Didn't have what I needed. Hasn't made a lick of difference. Mind you, it didn't cost what an Auto-Ordnance M1 does and wasn't a BNIB rifle either.
Plug the muzzle, fill the barrel with regular solvent(pick one) and leave it there for a half hour or so. Gives the solvent time to work. Then clean as per normal.

zombie666
November 7, 2010, 05:49 PM
I really don't see as this would be a problem. It should smooth out after a couple of hundred rounds fired, but if it bothers you that much swap it. I spent my formative years banging away with old South American Mausers. If the bore isn't a total sewar pipe I'm happy :)

DBR
November 7, 2010, 11:20 PM
I suggest you send the gun back to AO. They seem to have a habit of using their customers for final QC.

Don't plug the barrel and fill it with solvent. It will leak out of the gas port and royally screw up the gun.

Uncle Mike
November 7, 2010, 11:34 PM
This happens, it's no big deal and wont affect the accuracy of the rifle, after a couple rounds, the rough stuff will be gone, the 'stain' will still be there, but that wont cause any problem...I have underware with stains in them, they work just fine!

788Ham
November 8, 2010, 12:04 AM
Is them stains from cleanin' your rifles, or just normal wear 'n tear?:eek:

gdesloge
November 12, 2010, 06:58 PM
I thought that I would give an update on my situation.

On Monday, I contacted the Service Department at Auto Ordnance and explained my situation. The representative said that they would look over the rifle, and he assigned me a return authorization number for the rifle and arranged for a FedEx pick-up at my home. The rifle was picked up by FedEx on Tuesday.

Additionally, I wrote a letter and an e-mail to the vice-president of the company. I explained (politely, I believe) the situation and asked that they remedy the situation.

I received an e-mail response from the vice-president in 6 minutes (according to my e-mail program). 6 minutes.

He thanked me for my comments and feedback, and he stated that someone from the Service department would be contacting me.

Later that same day, I received a call from a Service Representative who said that he understood the situation and that the company was going to replace the barrel on my receiver. He said that he would be the person responsible for the repair, and I have his direct telephone number. He is awaiting the delivery of the rifle by FedEx.

At this point, I must commend Auto Ordnance for the manner in which they have handled this. They have responded quickly and have told me that they will fix the problem. Their response thus far has been exemplary.

I will give another update when I have received the rifle back from Auto Ordnance, but right now I am very impressed by the company.

I am sharing this because I believe that companies that make the effort to satisfy their customers deserve recognition and deserve my business.

Thank you,

gd

Ignition Override
November 12, 2010, 09:19 PM
Other than your immediate problem, let us know how the brand-new rifle operates, in terms of the bolt, after about 200-400 rds. or so.

There is a definite reason for my question, and hope for your sake that they are better products than mine was, back in '07.

Maverick223
November 13, 2010, 12:05 AM
...I have underware with stains in them, they work just fine!Hehehe

gdesloge, I prefer USGI Carbines, but I have to commend AO for good CS. Hope the new bbl is up to snuff and does well for you.

:)

Snowdog
November 13, 2010, 06:29 AM
I've been really putting my AO/Karh carbine through its paces lately and put 300 PPU through it a couple weekends ago, finishing off the 500 Prvi-Partizan that I had on hand. Before that were a few hundred Magtech and American Eagle. I'd venture to say I've put at or near a thousand rounds through it and the flat WWII style bolt is still the same as when it was received: tight and functional. The finish is even in nearly pristine condition and seems quite durable.

I also had to send my carbine back immediately after receiving it a few years ago. My issues were a malfunctioning safety (would fire on safe after a heavy trigger) and I noticed my brass appeared to be pinched about 1mm from the case mouth and had concerns about the chamber being out-of-spec.
Communication with Auto Ordnance/Kahr customer service was polite, apologetic and proactive.
Turn-around was about 3 weeks, but when the carbine was returned, all issues were addressed. The carbine has been 100% reliable since, including with both Magtech and PPU soft points which I understand give some carbine owners a hard time feeding.

It was initially disappointing to say the least to have two issues that really should have been spotted before leaving leaving the factory (especially for the $720 I paid). I admit having griped quite a bit at the time.
However, now I have a "new" M1 carbine with a perfect barrel, beautiful stock (gorgeous wood grain) and absolutely reliable. Did I mention it's scary accurate? More than an M1 carbine has any right to be, from their reputation of pie-plate 100 yard accuracy and all.

Hopefully, once your carbine comes home, your experiences will mirror mine.

gdesloge
November 13, 2010, 09:27 AM
Thank you for the report, Snowdog. I am looking forward to the rifle's return.

I have a friend who found a slightly used AO M1 Carbine, and he says that his functions very well. He was a Marine and has lots of experience with the Carbine.

It is heartening to hear about companies which stand behind their products.

I will give another update when the rifle returns.

gd

gdesloge
December 12, 2010, 09:22 AM
Hi, all -

My M1 Carbine was returned from Auto-Ordnance on Wednesday (12/8) via FedEx.

My rifle's repair was completed the previous week, and I was notified by the technician who performed the work that it was being shipped back to me.

He explained to me that the firm that was contracted to Parkerize the barrel/receiver units had failed to plug some barrels in the process.

The work sheet from the factory states that the barrel and front sight were replaced, the feed ramp and bolt were polished, the charging handle was re-worked, and the rifle was lubricated and test fired.

I would like to say that I am very pleased with Auto-Ordnance's handling of this issue. Their response to my contact with them was timely, and the repairs were made without question, and the employee in charge of my rifle was communicative about the progress.

I am looking forward to shooting this rifle. The repair process was painless for me, and Auto-Ordnance seems to be a company that deserves our business.

gd

Maverick223
December 12, 2010, 10:21 AM
Good news, gd. Hope it shoots well for you.

:)

Tim the student
December 12, 2010, 10:27 AM
Glad it went well.

gdesloge
December 12, 2010, 11:46 AM
Thanks, guys. I wanted to share a good customer-service story.

gs

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