Welcome to Felony Arrest 101


PDA






TheeBadOne
December 19, 2003, 01:53 PM
Fleeing Suspect Nabbed In Class

MOUNTLAKE TERRACE, Wash. -- An armed man who eluded police fled into a classroom at an elementary school before police pepper-sprayed him, tackled him and hauled him off in front of dozens of children.

"The cop came and jumped up in the air and tackled him down and he's like, 'Put your hands behind your back,'" said Chantel LaPorte, a student at Mountlake Terrace Elementary School.

After the man was arrested, police discovered he had a loaded handgun and a box of ammunition.

Several of the students had to go to the hospital because they breathed the pepper spray.

The suspect, a 30-year-old Brier resident, was booked into the Snohomish County Jail for felony outstanding warrants and for charges of illegal possession of a firearm and eluding a police officer.

http://www.kirotv.com/education/2715228/detail.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

:what:

If you enjoyed reading about "Welcome to Felony Arrest 101" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Jeff White
December 19, 2003, 01:58 PM
Several of the students had to go to the hospital because they breathed the pepper spray.

Oh come on..it was OC not anthrax...Pretty much overkill if you ask me.

The suspect, a 30-year-old Brier resident, was booked into the Snohomish County Jail for felony outstanding warrants and for charges of illegal possession of a firearm and eluding a police officer.

What about being in possession of a firearm within 1000 feet of a school? They have to charge him with that. It's such an important law that all the states were encouraged to re-pass it after the U.S. Supreme Court declared the Federal version unconstitutional. :rolleyes:

Jeff

fiVe
December 19, 2003, 02:01 PM
Little Johnny gets home, and his mother asks, "So how was school today?".......

Balog
December 19, 2003, 02:02 PM
Jeff White: I suppose that would depend on how much they breathed and if they had some sort of reaction to it. Give an asthmatic a good faceful of extra-strenght spray and I could see having to take em to the hospital.

Jeff White
December 19, 2003, 02:11 PM
Balog,

It doesn't sound like anyone got a facefull (except for the suspect :D). I've used OC numerous times and been in the middle of a fight where another officer used it numerous times. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but from what I can say from experience, secondary exposure in that type of setting shouldn't require anyone, even an asthmatic to go to the hospital.

It can seem overpowering though. A couple years ago during an active shooter course, an officer from another department had an OC ND on the floor below the one we were on, and you could certainly tell it happened. In fact we all started looking at each other to see if one of us had the ND. But no one had to be hospitalized.

Some nice attorney will take this story and use it to make his case that OC is excessive force. I'd hate to see that happen.

Jeff

pax
December 19, 2003, 02:22 PM
Jeff,

A child's body isn't simply a smaller version of an adult's body. They often metabolize drugs differently than adults do -- for instance, kids often respond to sleepy-making drugs with a paradoxical burst of energy, or to stimulants by calming down.

I'm not saying that's the case with OC, but it seems likely there aren't a lot of kid-specific studies about the stuff. So if a kid's been exposed and appears to be reacting badly, it'd certainly be better to err on the side of caution, and get a med check.

Apart from that, I don't think it makes a lot of sense to expect children to simply suck it up and shrug it off, the way adult police officers manage to do. You folks had to go through OC training before you were able to do that. Y'know?

pax

TheOtherOne
December 19, 2003, 02:46 PM
What about being in possession of a firearm within 1000 feet of a school? They have to charge him with that. It's such an important law that all the states were encouraged to re-pass it after the U.S. Supreme Court declared the Federal version unconstitutional.That is probably why he ran into the elementary school. While being chased he stopped and thought, "Hmmm... where should I run to get away. There is that school, but there's a federal law against me taking my gun... oh wait... no, the courts said it's cool." So off he went to flee to the school. Criminals are so rational and law-abiding. :eek:

Bravo11
December 19, 2003, 03:00 PM
If it was my kid I would want them checked out. Kids have allergic reactions to stuff that adults have grown out of.
If you work for the school you better take care of my kids while they are in your charge.

HogRider
December 19, 2003, 03:23 PM
"The cop came and jumped up in the air and tackled him down and he's like , 'Put your hands behind your back,'" said Chantel LaPorte, a student at Mountlake Terrace Elementary School

Whoa, dude did ya see that, it's like that dude got owned! Cool.


:rolleyes:

Russ
December 19, 2003, 03:26 PM
Even if those kids didn't develop a booger from the incident, any half way intelligent school official would have sent them to the hospital to be checked out so as not to be sued. They will probably get sued anyway just so some sleazy out of work lawyer can extort some fees.

Sunray
December 19, 2003, 03:38 PM
"Little Johnny gets home, and his mother asks, "So how was school today?"......." To which, Johnny replies, "Spicy, mom."
Pepper spray is primarily made from cayenne pepper. Allergies are nutty things and people can be allergic to some odd stuff. Know a guy allergic to basil. No pizza for him. I also knew a guy who died from ingesting peanut oil on a pizza. He died in the back of a taxi going to the hospital. Just a young buck too. Better to check the yard apes out than have to charge the flatfoot with manslaughter

Quartus
December 19, 2003, 03:51 PM
Give an asthmatic a good faceful of extra-strenght spray and I could see having to take em to the hospital.



Give a severe asthmatic a WHIFF of ANY strength pepper spray and you might be taking a BODY to the hospital. It depends on the individual.


Given today's lawsuit happy, hyper-cautious environment, I'm not at all surprised that some students were checked at a hospital.

dinosaur
December 19, 2003, 03:59 PM
Ooh, I dunno. An ex partner of mine, aka Dumb Donald, sprayed a guy with mace while a bunch of us were wrestling with him. Sent a few of us to the hospital. :banghead:

It`s a CYA situation for the school. Still, some parent will sue the police, the school and anyone else with a deep pocket.:rolleyes:

Jeff White
December 19, 2003, 04:21 PM
CYA for the school or not...it can only be a bad thing unless someone was actually having a bad reaction.

OC is one of the most effective tools we have. If it becomes common practice to take everyone whos's exposed to it to the hospital to be checked out, we soon won't have it. Administrators who fear lawsuits will write overly restrictive policies on it's use.

This mindset can also spread over onto those private citizens who use OC for self defense. You may be sued for negligence for using it or may be required to provide aid to your assailant. Your anti-self defense legislator may right legislation outlawing it's possession and use by private citizens because it's so dangerous.

Naturally, we should provide medical assistance to anyone who requires it, but if we make medical checks routine after exposure we'll eventually see the use of OC restricted.

Jeff

Ky Larry
December 19, 2003, 04:39 PM
Jeff, you just don't seem to get it. These were not criminals that were exposed to OC. These were children. Allergies can be deadly. A couple of years ago, a 13 year old girl in Louiseville ate a piece of candy with walnuts in it. She went into anafalactic (?) shock and was dead before she reached the hospital. I think the point people are trying to make is that you can't treat children like adult criminals and expect the to react the same way. Have a nice holiday season.

trimation
December 19, 2003, 04:42 PM
I have been sprayed with OC before and I can tell you, as I'm sure some others here can, that it isn't a fun thing.

This is a little off topic but funny to me. My mother works in a juvenille detention facility and they all carry OC there. I was there visiting her the other day and I was speaking to some of the other employees about how effective pepper spray is and how painful it is. These guys were telling me, "oh it's not that bad", and "it doesn't really hurt at all", and "all you have to do is wash it off with a little water".

Why do people have to act so macho about it. IT HURTS LIKE HELL. Nobody will ever convince me otherwise.

Trimation

Balog
December 19, 2003, 04:44 PM
I don't want to see OC restricted for anyone. But taking kids to the hospital as a precaution seems unlikely to bring this about.

Jeff White
December 19, 2003, 05:03 PM
KY Larry,

I have no problem with giving medical treatment to anyone who needs it. I do have a problem with establishing a precedent that anyone who is exposd to it needs to be checked out by medical personnel. OC is used in juvenile detention facilities.

If the kids were actually having a reaction to it, by all means rush them to the hospitial. If you think you need to take them to the hospital because they were exposed, then IMHO, you're over-reacting.

I understand all about allergies. It's our department policy to get medical treatment for anyone who needs it or appears to.

Maybe I don't have enough information to really judge what happened. In my minds eye, I see the school administration taking these kids to the ER to avoid the potential for a lawsuit. If so, that's fine for school, but bad for the police. Especially if the school district decides the PD should pay for the ER visits.

This kind of stuff can get real sticky. Especially when there are medical bills to pay. I had a prisoner fake a heart attack at the jail one night years ago. Called an ambulance took him to the ER, the usual bills were generated. The city and county fought for a couple years over who had to pay the bill. The county's out was that he wasn't through the sally port yet. The city maintained that he was on the jail property when it happened.

I can really see the officers being forbidden to use OC near children or at the school if the PD gets stuck with the bill. Then you have the attorneys who will use this as a reason to prove that the evil police used a toxic substance on their poor out of control client and he should be entitled to be released from jail and awarded millions from your tax money because the agency was negligent enough to issue OC to it's officers.

Jeff

Ky Larry
December 19, 2003, 05:14 PM
Jeff, I agree we don't have enough info about this situation. I'm sure if I was a LEO, my views would be very different on a lot of things. I admire LEO's for walking a very fine line between personal and public safety. I know I couldn't do it. My hat is off to you Sir.

Intune
December 19, 2003, 05:19 PM
And if the guy turned around and shot the cop it would be a good thing that I was there to pick up my kid because I would reach around to my holster and... be sucking wind because only cops & bad guys can have guns at my kid's school. Bah! :fire:

spacemanspiff
December 19, 2003, 05:43 PM
i'd bet a shiny nickel that it was the decision of the school to send some kids to the hospital, a CYA move. you know that a parent of a kid who suffered ill effects from 2nd hand contact with OC would sue the pants off the school.

there was a recent situation up here where police broke up a fight in a school by using OC. parents werent thrilled.

Standing Wolf
December 19, 2003, 05:51 PM
...felony outstanding warrants and for charges of illegal possession of a firearm and eluding a police officer.

I'll bet he'll get some really serious probation this time!

MicroBalrog
December 19, 2003, 09:11 PM
felony outstanding warrants and for charges of illegal possession of a firearm and eluding a police officer

So what actual violent crimes did he commit?

AZLibertarian
December 19, 2003, 09:40 PM
Jeff White,
You probably have a point about the unintended consequences of over-sensitivity of some officials to CYA, especially when dealing with otherwise healthy children. That being said, if I was the principal here, I think I'd have as many kids checked out who might have, even remotely, caught some of the OC here. That the lawsuit that might come down out of this would be stupid, doesn't mean that it wouldn't happen.

However, all this being said, I do think that kids these days are somewhat softer than when I was raised. I can't even remember how many scraped knees, sprained fingers, cuts, bruises, etc. I had as a kid. Check out the "BB Gun Wars" thread. Kids today ride their bikes wearing helmets, skate with kneeguards...well, you get the idea. Being a principal at a school today, surrounded by whiney kids, I'd send them to be checked out too.

Powderman
December 19, 2003, 10:03 PM
So what actual violent crimes did he commit?

There's something in his records to make it illegal possession of a firearm.

But, for starters, let's have eluding--in the State of WA, that's one felony. Then, we can smack the dork with obstruction; if he pushed one of the officers, then it's assault 3, another felony; possession of a firearm on school property, a gross misdemeanor.

Hopefully, this guy won't plead out on this one. But then again, here in latte land, anything is possible.

sendec
December 19, 2003, 11:01 PM
If I were an adminisistrator for either the school or police I would insist the kids get medically cleared, largely due to potentially liability purposes, but I would also think that it would just be the "right" thing to do. Let some pretty nurses and nice doctors fuss over them, flush them with saline, and give'em some tokes of O2 and SpongeBob stickers. Can you imagine the outcry if the police just left them face down in the nearest drinking fountain?

This actually sounds like a textbook example of restraint and low-key law enforcement. What could have turned int a gunfight got defused with minimal collateral damage.

As for the perp's "violent crime", not giving him the opportunity to commit one counts as a win.

c_yeager
December 20, 2003, 01:50 AM
As im sure anyone who works in a club or other such environment can tell you, OC and pepper spray work VERY differently indoors versus outdoors. The spray disperses VERY quickly outside. If you happen to be inside a restaraunt or other such open indoor environment (class room) when someone lets off some pepper-spray you will know it right away. ive seen entire clubs get cleared out within five minutes of some idiot playing with his can of pepper spray.

Oh, and washington state doesnt have the 1000 ft law. It is however illegal to carry ON the school property unless your dropping off or picking up a student. So if the guy has a kid there he is OK :p

BluesBear
December 20, 2003, 04:21 AM
This all happened just a few miles from my home. My roomate drives a school bus for the district and drove for this school last year.

Anytime a child comes in contact with any substance that can cause breathing or vision problems paramedics must be summoned IMEDIATELY! It would then be the paramedics decision if a trip to the ER is needed.

As for using OC in the classroom, this person abandoned his minivan on the curb outside the school, ran into a classroom, this is an older school that has doors both leading into inside hallways and to the outside. As he ran into the classroom was reaching in side his pants and the officer tackled him.

As I understand it the officer on patrol outside the school observed this guy speeding through the School Zone and ran his plates. Upon finding outstanding warrants he attempted to pull him over. That's when all the fun started.

Matt1911
December 20, 2003, 06:51 AM
While in thier CARE,a schools job is not only to teach,but to CARE for the kids,i don't find it unreasonable at all to have them checked.

If you enjoyed reading about "Welcome to Felony Arrest 101" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!