Angry shooter at the range today.


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ms6852
November 8, 2010, 02:24 AM
As deer season approaches I see more and more new faces coming around with their store bought ammo trying to get their rifles zeroed. I noticed this man set right next to me as he tried to bore sight his new scope. After shooting about 10 times I notice that he would rest his barrel on the sand bag. I asked him if he realized that his barrel was touching the sandbag and that it would probably through off his shot when the time came for the hunt.

We were both at the 50 and I was using my remington 513T for plinking. He told me to mind my own business since I did not have a real rifle. I showed him my target and told him that my group with Iron sights was better than his with a scope. Anyway he wanted no advice and I left him alone to shoot 2 boxes at 50 yards before he was satisfied. Here is my target.

http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv157/ms6852/Winchester%2052%20and%20Remington%20513T/th_IMGP0041.jpg (http://s679.photobucket.com/albums/vv157/ms6852/Winchester%2052%20and%20Remington%20513T/?action=view&current=IMGP0041.jpg)http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv157/ms6852/Winchester%2052%20and%20Remington%20513T/th_IMGP0049.jpg (http://s679.photobucket.com/albums/vv157/ms6852/Winchester%2052%20and%20Remington%20513T/?action=view&current=IMGP0049.jpg)

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12131
November 8, 2010, 02:32 AM
Maybe it's just me, but, unless asked, I would mind my own business. Exception would be the guy was doing something unsafe with his gun. Then, I would stick my nose right in his (unsafe) business.

xx7grant7x
November 8, 2010, 03:18 AM
it's true, no good deed goes un-punished

my762buzz
November 8, 2010, 03:21 AM
As deer season approaches I see more and more new faces coming around with their store bought ammo trying to get their rifles zeroed. I noticed this man set right next to me as he tried to bore sight his new scope. After shooting about 10 times I notice that he would rest his barrel on the sand bag.

Resting the barrel like this guy evaluating rifle accuracy?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOf4BAZgEOs&feature=related

Hatchbm
November 8, 2010, 07:39 AM
To the OP, I didn't know resting the barrel on something would affect sighting in. How does it affect it, and what is the proper way? Thank you!

22-rimfire
November 8, 2010, 07:47 AM
Nice shooting with a real rifle. You never said he finished sighting in his rifle; only that he was satisfied.

Mp7
November 8, 2010, 08:03 AM
giving someone unasked advice to save some deer from
suffering? Definitely.

Being told to mind my own .. iŽd have advised him to bring
good shoes for traling the deer ....

Jbabbler
November 8, 2010, 08:11 AM
He really said that to you? Made fun of your rifle and told you to mind your own business? Seriously?

eastbank
November 8, 2010, 08:28 AM
thats why i go eary to the range to sight my rifles in. what pisses me off is the people who don,t have a spotting scope. i put up all the targets i want to shoot and shoot at them one at a time,writting down the info i want in my range book. but it is a slow prosess with the nitwits wanting to run up to the targets to see how they are shooting. i just pack up and go home. if some one ask me to help,i would. but i would not butt in. eastbank.

skipjack
November 8, 2010, 08:40 AM
May I offer you some advice...

That is what I say to folks at the indoor range I manage, before offering
said advice. I am an instructor (NRA). I have only had
a few folks say "no, thanks", and they are usually nitwits.

Please, let me be clear, you did nothing wrong, and they guy was way out of line.
In my experience, testosterone levels are at the max with some folks
when they have a firearm in their hand.

I especially like the men who are going to teach the wife or girlfriend (never at the same time) how to shoot.
The majority of them don't know much themselves, let alone teaching.

JoeMal
November 8, 2010, 08:40 AM
I see more and more new faces coming around with their store bought ammo trying to get their rifles zeroed.Do you have a problem with people that shoot store bought ammo? What's the point of that comment? Not everyone reloads...

Jbabbler
November 8, 2010, 08:41 AM
May I offer you some advice...

That is what I say to folks at the indoor range I manage, before offering
said advice. I am an instructor (NRA). I have only had
a few folks say "no, thanks", and they are usually nitwits.

Please, let me be clear, you did nothing wrong, and they guy was way out of line.
In my experience, testosterone levels are at the max with some folks
when they have a firearm in their hand.

I especially like the men who are going to teach the wife or girlfriend (never at the same time) how to shoot.
The majority of them don't know much themselves, let alone teaching.
I see what you did there

JDMorris
November 8, 2010, 08:59 AM
well, If someone made fun of my silly rifle I would clear it, hand it to them and say, alright how are you gonna prove this?
OR just go get my .308, set up the bench next to him, and point at the berm, using cheap ammo, I would watch his trigger as he gets close to the pull I would shoot and watch the flinch.

M-Cameron
November 8, 2010, 08:59 AM
one thing i learned when it comes to shooting....

you don't have to follow the advice you're given....but only a fool would refuse to listen to it.

Sav .250
November 8, 2010, 09:02 AM
Being friendly is fine but not always accepted.

Jonny V
November 8, 2010, 09:23 AM
We have guys like this at our range too. One idiot a few weeks ago was blasting away with a 300 magnum (perfect for deer, you know), and could barely get on paper at 50 yards. His "group" literally covered the entire surface area of a standard NRA target.

Hunting is great. Shoot it, doll it up with a little garlic and onion, and eat it up. Yum yum, burp. Causing animal suffering because of your incompetence is not cool. There are some people who should not be allowed to hunt.

You were right to say something to this guy. We should all be saying stuff to these kinds of wackos.

Tirod
November 8, 2010, 09:48 AM
Hmm. lets see: attitude reflects superiority "trying to zero store bought ammo." Told to mind their own business, the OP sticks a target under his nose. When the other guy doesn't recognize professionalism and superior training, accuses him of being "angry."

There's always a bit more to the story. I'd like to hear from the older guy what was said prior to pointing out the horrible error of resting a barrel on a sandbag and making it an issue. Most hunting rifles are 2 MOA, if he shoots like that all the time with sticks or some support, at less than 400m (the most common range hunting,) he will still get a hit. Considering most military rifles up to the M4 all had sling swivels attached to the barrel, I don't see much problem with effective accuracy. Not the best way to sight in, but frankly, it's none of my business.

Makes me wonder who was the angry shooter, too. Someone came home and posted on the innerweb to soothe his feelings about it.

Double Naught Spy
November 8, 2010, 09:51 AM
I noticed this man set right next to me as he tried to bore sight his new scope. After shooting about 10 times I notice that he would rest his barrel on the sand bag. I asked him if he realized that his barrel was touching the sandbag and that it would probably through off his shot when the time came for the hunt.

In part, I can see why the guy wasn't pleased with you...which is part of the reason I don't care for dealing with the public at gun ranges (be it a public range or a well attended private range). While I agree that your critique may be right (as you don't know how he rests his rifle, or if) while hunting and so you don't know how what he is doing will affect his hunting (assuming he is going to be hunting). Maybe the guy is trying to figure out how barrel harmonics are distorted and accuracy affected when the gun is rested on the barrel. You didn't ask, did you?

It is annoying when folks open up with some sort of critique about something for which they don't have all the information. Sometimes folks were helpful, but in a lot of cases the were just folks who just liked to hear themselves sound like they knew what they were talking about when they did not.

I was working on trying to learn how to judge the wind (without all those arfifical spinning flowers and wind guages the benchresters use) and was shooting 55 gr. .223 at 200 yards. There were only three of us shooting and I was the only one shooting at 200 yards. My group with pathetic. A guy from the 50 yard table comes over with his binoculars and stares at my target and finally tells me that "today isn't a good day to be shooting for groups." I thanked him and explained that today was the perfect day for shooting for groups if one is trying to learn how to judge wind speed and doesn't have any other days off this week. So he asks what ammo I am using and then proceeds to tell me how I don't want to be shooting 55 gr. ammo in a cross wind. I asked what ammo I should be using given that I didn't have any other ammo what his choice would be, a) 55 gr., b) 55 gr., or c) 55 gr.

He then started in on how my barrel was getting too hot.....

"Why does everyone else know more about what I am doing than I do when they don't know what I am doing?" was what came to mind. The previous week a guy had gone into detail how my rifle wasn't good for what I was doing, but he never asked what I was doing.

So basically, your opening salvo was telling the guy that he didn't know what he was doing. I realize you were tryng to be helpful, but if the guy is shooting crappy groups (and we assume he wants to do better) and is probably frustrated, then your approach likely was seen as nitpicking and rude.

You probably didn't have time to engage the gun in polite conversation so that there could be a two way understanding of information and shared interests. So he just saw you as a know-it-all busy body at a time when he probably wasn't having a good day.

mshootnit
November 8, 2010, 10:14 AM
I mentioned it to a pair of guys one time that they were resting the barrel on a hard rest, and thats why they weren't shooting at all well. I felt like an ass because I came off like a know it all which wasn't my intent. Anyway by golly that fixed the problem! They weren't mad at me.

jsimmons
November 8, 2010, 10:15 AM
In part, I can see why the guy wasn't pleased with you...which is part of the reason I don't care for dealing with the public at gun ranges (be it a public range or a well attended private range). While I agree that your critique may be right (as you don't know how he rests his rifle, or if) while hunting and so you don't know how what he is doing will affect his hunting (assuming he is going to be hunting). Maybe the guy is trying to figure out how barrel harmonics are distorted and accuracy affected when the gun is rested on the barrel. You didn't ask, did you?

It is annoying when folks open up with some sort of critique about something for which they don't have all the information. Sometimes folks were helpful, but in a lot of cases the were just folks who just liked to hear themselves sound like they knew what they were talking about when they did not.

I was working on trying to learn how to judge the wind (without all those arfifical spinning flowers and wind guages the benchresters use) and was shooting 55 gr. .223 at 200 yards. There were only three of us shooting and I was the only one shooting at 200 yards. My group with pathetic. A guy from the 50 yard table comes over with his binoculars and stares at my target and finally tells me that "today isn't a good day to be shooting for groups." I thanked him and explained that today was the perfect day for shooting for groups if one is trying to learn how to judge wind speed and doesn't have any other days off this week. So he asks what ammo I am using and then proceeds to tell me how I don't want to be shooting 55 gr. ammo in a cross wind. I asked what ammo I should be using given that I didn't have any other ammo what his choice would be, a) 55 gr., b) 55 gr., or c) 55 gr.

He then started in on how my barrel was getting too hot.....

"Why does everyone else know more about what I am doing than I do when they don't know what I am doing?" was what came to mind. The previous week a guy had gone into detail how my rifle wasn't good for what I was doing, but he never asked what I was doing.

So basically, your opening salvo was telling the guy that he didn't know what he was doing. I realize you were tryng to be helpful, but if the guy is shooting crappy groups (and we assume he wants to do better) and is probably frustrated, then your approach likely was seen as nitpicking and rude.

You probably didn't have time to engage the gun in polite conversation so that there could be a two way understanding of information and shared interests. So he just saw you as a know-it-all busy body at a time when he probably wasn't having a good day.



Somebody tell me again why an armed society is supposed to be a polite society.
I was at the range last weekend, testing a new AR-15 build on the 50-yard line. It was shooting pretty good, so I took a break by standing behind the firing line. The guy in the next spot over was shooting a pre-64 Model 94 in .30-30, and he too stood up to take a break.

I had checked out his target before standing up and noticed that even after firing half a dozen shots, he still didn't have any holes on the paper. When he stood up and turned around, he was shakin his head, and I asked him what was wrong. He was complainging that he ouldn't hit the broad side of a barn and I told him about how I wanted my dad's Model 94 (55 years old and never had a round even chambered in it).

It turns out he'd inherited the gun (and bout a hundred others) from a neighbor who died the month before, he'd brought this one to the range to try it out. I asked him how it was shooting and he said he didn't know because he appeared to not have any hits on the paper. I asked him how he was drawing a bead, and he explained his process. It sounded right, and I just went "Hmmm, it sounds like you're doing it right...", and he asked if I'd like to try it. Of course, I jumped at the chance.

They don't allow offhand shooting at the range (and you have to have your elbows on the table), so I sat down on the bench, chambered a round, aimed, and fired. The first round was dead center and two inches low. He stood there literally mouth open, and I told him I wasn't really paying attention to how he was shooting, but not to use the rest provided by the range. He sat down, and I told him, aim a little about the bull, and he nailed it on the first shot. We the proceded to adjust the sight and he was grouping in 3 inches with iron sights without any effort at all.

You shoulda seen the grin on his face. :)

Days at the range can be fun.

ny32182
November 8, 2010, 10:16 AM
It is all going to be in the presentation.

I can think of about 3 times where I have offered unsolicited advice to the guy next to me on a rifle range; it has been well recieved each time so far. I'll only do it if I'm 95%+ sure I know exactly what the problem is. I also attempt to phrase it in a way that doesn't suggest the guy is an idiot. If I'm certain I can help someone, I will offer. I can see how stated the wrong way, the guy having issues could be offended though... just think first, speak second.

If I ever encountered anyone who said or implied anything along the line of "mind your own business", they wouldn't have to ask twice. :rolleyes:

Glocked-N-Loaded
November 8, 2010, 10:28 AM
I simply mind my own business at the range. If someone likes my shooting and wants advice or some input, they'll ask, they have before. Some interpret unsolicited advice as a statement of their skills. By you offering your advice, it sounds like the guy in question inpreted it as you questioning his ability and basically saying without saying that he needs help.

Carl N. Brown
November 8, 2010, 10:36 AM
I listen to unasked advice; if it's good I'll take it with a smile; if it's bad I'll ignore it with a smile. The unasked advice I got on muzzleloading (particularly the weight of patch I was using with ball and type of lube) saved me a lot of frustration.

My son takes unasked advice as buttinskiness, usually with ill grace, as in he would rather learn from mistakes himself.

Matt-J2
November 8, 2010, 10:52 AM
Funny thing, we don't actually know that the other fella was shooting poorly, just that the OP feels he was shooting better and wanted to let the other guy, and us, know it.
Now I wasn't there and all, but that's what I get out of this.

Mr_Pale_Horse
November 8, 2010, 11:00 AM
The only 'advice' that must be proffered is when an unsafe condition or act is evident.

Otherwise, let them ask for help.

CraigC
November 8, 2010, 11:23 AM
Some folks you just can't help. I typically would just mind my own business at the range. I would offer suggestions if asked but most the time, due to situations just like yours, I butt out. Which is one reason why I'm so grateful that I no longer have to endure public shooting ranges.

HOWARD J
November 8, 2010, 11:31 AM
What I hate at the state range--the guy that is pumping 22 or 22 mag under his bench & mine.
Then he gets up & leaves his miss for me to clean up.
The rangers used to jump on a guy for doing that.
In this country today they are afraid they will say the wrong thing to the wrong person.
Times have changed////////////////////////

brettrow
November 8, 2010, 11:45 AM
Whether shooting at a range or not, it upsets me when people who rarely if ever pick up a rifle decide to set out to hunt while not really knowing how to handle their rifle (maybe its too big for them, maybe they dont bother practicing, maybe they dont bother checking their zero at the beginning of a season.) Then they wonder why the gut shot deer ran off and was never found. Then the excuses begin.....

M-Cameron
November 8, 2010, 12:15 PM
wow....some of you guys are brutal.....

the guy simply made a suggestion, and it sounds like the guy told him to buzz-off because he was shooting a .22 and not a "real gun"....

i really dont think he flew in with his cape claiming to be captain Rifleman, the authority on all things shooting.....


goodness, i cant tell you how much i would have loved some advice when i was learning to shoot....and i cant tell you how much i appreciate it when someone takes the time to give me some advice

Glocked-N-Loaded
November 8, 2010, 12:23 PM
Yah, that may be all well and good but I can't stand range commandos. Trying to teach my son to shoot and some idiot range master comes over and chirps in his advice although my son is shooting 1" groups at 100 yrds, then goes on to shoot 3" groups of his own 2 lanes over. Didn't need his advice, didn't ask for it, and he sucked at shooting himself. Game. Set. Match.

Tirod
November 8, 2010, 12:26 PM
And most of us would be happy to relate what we know.

Unfortunately, on the internet, you don't get both sides of the story. And a lot of time things aren't what they first seem to be after the OP relates a few more details.

And some of us have had nosey busy bodies attempt to let us know how to do something we've been doing for years, both civilian and military. Not all our experiences at ranges were that pleasant. Having a safety officer grab your gun for a "violation" because he had a personal agenda to embarrass you so his buddy could shoot a higher score comes to mind. I'm not perfect, I don't shoot perfect scores, I also don't need a hassle from someone totally unfamiliar to me directing my efforts and pointing out how much better a shooter he is.

I still would like to know what happened before the first comment was made. The average guy doesn't start a conversation with "mind your own business." There are two sides to this story, only one ran home to get sympathy on the internet.

Again, we've read these one sided complaints before, something always comes out that changes the situation.

jem375
November 8, 2010, 12:28 PM
thats why i go eary to the range to sight my rifles in. what pisses me off is the people who don,t have a spotting scope. i put up all the targets i want to shoot and shoot at them one at a time,writting down the info i want in my range book. but it is a slow prosess with the nitwits wanting to run up to the targets to see how they are shooting. i just pack up and go home. if some one ask me to help,i would. but i would not butt in. eastbank.
to be honest, I do range duty at my gun club twice a year and to expect everyone to have a spotting scope is stupid. We provide one at the 100 and 200 yard range, but people still want to look at their targets and there is nothing wrong with that...

Glocked-N-Loaded
November 8, 2010, 12:28 PM
Excellent post Tirod

FlyinBryan
November 8, 2010, 12:31 PM
Maybe it's just me, but, unless asked, I would mind my own business. Exception would be the guy was doing something unsafe with his gun. Then, I would stick my nose right in his (unsafe) business.

FlyinBryan "likes" this

wojownik
November 8, 2010, 12:43 PM
I've had offers of advice and guidance on the range more than once.

One fellow (NRA instructor) waited till I paused to change targets, approached me with a few compliments about my rifle and stance, and then asked if I might be open to a suggestion or two. What can I say... he smoothed the road very nicely to an interactive discussion, and I actually learned a few things.

Another fellow I encountered had a different approach - he just went in for the corrective advice unsolicited. In this case, I was shooting a revolver and was trying out an old fashioned stance. So his advice was not so welcome, since I was intentionally trying out a few different or "wrong" ways to do things.

Just a thought handling folks (or at what works "handling" me).

Double Naught Spy
November 8, 2010, 12:47 PM
You shoulda seen the grin on his face.

Days at the range can be fun.

See jsimmons, you took the time to talk to the guy, to find out what was going on and then you shared insights with him in a manner where you didn't come across as a know-it-all dressing down an idiot....and you both had a pleasant experience. That is the way exchanges should go and they should be exchanges.

One thing I do miss about public ranges is seeing other people's guns and getting the occasional chance to try them.

Glocked-N-Loaded
November 8, 2010, 12:47 PM
Good post. It's called verbal judo, or tactical communication. In your latter scenario wojo, most people, even if they knew they were wrong, would likely argue to the end because their pride and intelligence had been questioned.

CZguy
November 8, 2010, 12:51 PM
One advantage of getting older, is that I've finally learned that the only advice that is ever listened to, is the advice that is asked for. ;)

I especially like the men who are going to teach the wife or girlfriend (never at the same time) how to shoot.
The majority of them don't know much themselves, let alone teaching.

If I had a wife and a girlfriend, I wouldn't want either of them to know how to shoot. :D

bigfatdave
November 8, 2010, 12:54 PM
ms6852, perhaps they guy was a jerk, or perhaps your delivery left something to be desired. There's no telling through an after-the-fact account and via text.

But the Fudds at my club are jerks, too. Most of them show up and hog the outdoor range for an hour using up three rounds, hemming and hawing over scope adjustments as if their ammo was made of solid gold. Most of them are only safe because of their ammo stinginess, once the rifle/shotgun is in their hands safety goes out the window rapidly.

But then, the hobbyist handloaders are jerks, too. Spend an hour expending four rounds and making notes in your little book on your portable bench, or complaining about the range tables not being precision shooting benches ... when I want to do some prone shooting at 100 yards or even *gasp* shoot a handgun at less than 25 yards! Possibly at a non-paper target!

Basically, everyone at the range is a jerk (including me!) ... go when you can have it to yourself.

daorhgih
November 8, 2010, 12:55 PM
I really like the signature that includes, "... die like a viking!" Thanks for the smiles.

HGUNHNTR
November 8, 2010, 01:10 PM
And he was using "store bought ammo", the nerve!

Kidding, but if the guy said to mind your own business, I would do it, and not attempt to rub his nose in your rifle's groups. No reason to antagonize a stranger that has a gun.

CraigC
November 8, 2010, 01:30 PM
The bottom line is that we are all grown men....or are supposed to be. There is no reason why we can't have a courteous exchange with each other, without getting our feathers ruffled. Unfortunately, when speaking of grown men, there is a grand presence of ego when it comes to shooting. Most folks would be much better off to just throttle back on the posturing for "a more harmonious outcome". Making a friendly, or even an unfriendly suggestion should never be taken as spitting on your dog.

nathan
November 8, 2010, 01:38 PM
In a public range i keep my business to my own and stay away from offending someone. Remember so many yahoos out there, not worth your time and good advise. But always be mindful of poor handling technique by you and others which can can be disastrous.

Cosmoline
November 8, 2010, 01:47 PM
It's a fair point when sighting a scope in. And his reaction was not called for.

That said, I've had guys tell me not to use my sling with military rifles and not to rest the barrel when I'm shooting a black powder double rifle--both because of it's alleged effect on the barrel. Of course, in neither case is the effect on the barrel of any significance. It's not enough to matter shooting offhand or kneeling with a combat rifle. And with a black powder beast sighted in at 75 yards with massive barrels it's not going to matter enough to worry about. Not every rifle is a scoped hunting rifle. But I just smile and nod.

Glocked-N-Loaded
November 8, 2010, 01:50 PM
The bottom line is that we are all grown men....or are supposed to be. There is no reason why we can't have a courteous exchange with each other, without getting our feathers ruffled. Unfortunately, when speaking of grown men, there is a grand presence of ego when it comes to shooting. Most folks would be much better off to just throttle back on the posturing for "a more harmonious outcome". Making a friendly, or even an unfriendly suggestion should never be taken as spitting on your dog.


Some issues revolve around those less skilled and knowledgable giving advice to those more skilled. When you consistently see the same idiot shoot poorly, very poorly, wobbly, on the verge of unsafe, yet come around and instruct you and others on how to shoot, it's just too much, and this clown's a "range master". If he was more knowledgable and I simply didn't want his advice, that's ego. I mean if this were Jerry Miculek giving advice....

Andrew Wyatt
November 8, 2010, 02:18 PM
I keep to myself at the range.

I've had people tell me i was shooting my rifle wrong because i was shooting left handed, and people try to instruct people i was instructing while i was instructing them.

A simple "go back to your bench" suffices in the latter situation.

Geno
November 8, 2010, 02:24 PM
Most fellas at the range are decent. Some aren't.

I get a kick out of the fellas who smirk at the .22LR. Heck, I have no problem admitting that this "lowly" cartridge is my favorite. Besides, when I felt like "rubbing-it-in", I just wait until a fly landed on my target, then say, "See that fly?!" <<Crack>> Nothing but a hole surrounded by fly blood. Loved my Contender pistol in .22LR Match.

Some people take life too seriously, and I am not qualified to give them the help that their certifiable conditions would require. :D Bet that was the fastest flight that fly ever took.

Geno

desidog
November 8, 2010, 02:28 PM
A while back I was at a public range and next to me there was a guy "teaching" a lanky woman to shoot a 92FS. I guessed they were a couple, or something like that. Her shoulders were behind her hips she was so far back, trying to compensate for the weight of the pistol at arms' length; consequently, she was all over the paper, and missing it at 5 yards. My target was back at 50 in the next lane and caught one of her rounds.

Politely i offered some free advice: If you lean into it, and take an active stance, you'll have more control over it.

Well, talk about a gruff reply. Turns out the guy was a (paid) instructor, and they were "working on using the sights." He was not at all interested in her listening to my advice, and told her to keep doing just what she was doing. I would have loved to call the guy out and ask how much he was charging for his dis-service, but i just moved away at the next ceasefire.

This thread reminds me to look into private ranges in my area again....

SwampWolf
November 8, 2010, 02:30 PM
I'm a big believer in minding my own business, especially at a public shooting range, and subscribe to the "Don't ask; don't tell" policy. Safety issues aside, if they don't ask; I don't tell.

CraigC
November 8, 2010, 02:36 PM
Some issues revolve around those less skilled and knowledgable giving advice to those more skilled.
Just like the internet, take what you can use and discard the rest. ;)

Naybor
November 8, 2010, 03:01 PM
Best way to use a sandbag is with the center of the forearm of the rifle on the sandbag and the rifle barrel free. Every barrel gives a specific "vibration" when shot and most manufacturers design their stocks with the "vibration" in mind to give the barrel the best accuracy. This forearm or stock placement is doubly important if the barrel has been "floated" and tweaked for best accuracy.

MS6852 was correct in his assessment and hopefully the grumpy feller will think about it and reconsider. MS6852, you did well. In the long run, it NEVER hurts to be helpful!

(I said "vibration" ~ a better word may be "harmonics" I'm 66 and sometimes can't think of dem big words!)

Girodin
November 8, 2010, 03:17 PM
Wow reading through the responses here has made me realize a lot of people are pretty immature.

I typically don't give unsolicited advice. There are times when I might. If I do I typically preface it by asking something like, can I show you something that works well for me? If they say yes then I nicely explain what it is I want to explain. If I was unkindly rebuffed I certainly wouldn't feel the need to act like just as big of a jerk back. If in a moment of weakness I did then I wouldn't go brag about it on the internet. I thought this response demonstrated particular maturity and class. I honest cannot believe people proudly state they would do things like this.

well, If someone made fun of my silly rifle I would clear it, hand it to them and say, alright how are you gonna prove this?
OR just go get my .308, set up the bench next to him, and point at the berm, using cheap ammo, I would watch his trigger as he gets close to the pull I would shoot and watch the flinch.

CZguy
November 8, 2010, 03:25 PM
I've had people tell me i was shooting my rifle wrong because i was shooting left handed

And you probably still keep doing it wrong. :D

Prion
November 8, 2010, 03:38 PM
An older gentleman at the range is sighting in his rifle. A younger stranger walks by him and says "good luck, that rifle is p.o.s". I kid you not, I wanted to smack the guy and he wasn't even talking to me!

No unsolicited advice from me and I limit my time at the range the month before deer season.

Someone gives me unsolicited advice, I'll smile, say nothing, and ignore you.

cougar1717
November 8, 2010, 03:45 PM
There are two sides to this story, only one ran home to get sympathy on the internet.

Exactly

Unsolicited advice many times is seen as an ego trip on the part of the adviser. If someone is really struggling and they get that "I don't know what to do" look, it's worth a short conversation at the cease fire, IMO. "Experts" that fly in and try to tell you what you're doing wrong are almost always rejected, especially if their target shows less than expert skill.

In my area, I think there are way more "experts" at the private ranges than at the public ones. But both have range rats that are primarily there for a conversation and not to shoot. Either way, IMO the best response to unsolicited advice is a simple thank you.

M1key
November 8, 2010, 04:23 PM
Guy with his young son zeroing his hunting rifle...

I glanced over after he had fired several rounds and noticed his scope was bent.

I mentioned it to him during the cease-fire. He thanked me, and went home to get another rifle.

He may have been there all day, burning up ammo, trying to zero that thang if no one said anything.

YMMV

M

MTMilitiaman
November 8, 2010, 04:27 PM
This is why I don't shoot at public ranges...

Zombiphobia
November 8, 2010, 04:37 PM
I mind my own business unless they're being unsafe, or ask for help.

It always annoys me when someone offers advice, uninvited, for one, I am an expert marksman and have the paperwork to prove it, and two.. it's a learning experience.
We all have our own way of doing things, and just because someone's doing something different, doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing, they may just be trying something new, so unless they ask... just let them learn.

eastbank
November 8, 2010, 04:47 PM
not every body has a spotting scopes, thats true. but to run up to the targets at 100yds and back make no sense to me and every one has to stop shooting when this happens and some go to check every three shoots.. the gun club i belong to has a large range out to 1000yds with plenty of good benches that are covered. i set up on the lower end and shoot my targets and when i,ll done i wait untill some one goes up to check their targets then i go take my targets down,i then clean up the area i was useing and leave. i my self have three spotting scopes and have only bought one brand new, two i bought at flea markets very cheap and they are totaly servicable to see .30 cal bullet holes at 300yds. eastbank

MrWesson
November 8, 2010, 04:48 PM
I don't really offer advice to anyone but if I see they are having trouble just strike up a conversation and after about 5 min or so ill touch on the subject.

But for the most part I am on the receiving end of advice some usually from people who have much to teach but alot of the time its someone who has more to learn than me. Either way I'm polite and listen.

sappyg
November 8, 2010, 05:03 PM
i try to keep to myself at the range. i do take note of the people around me and it's easy to spot the uneducated. those are the ones i keep my eye on. as long as they are not endangering themselves or others i don't care what they do.

ms6852
November 8, 2010, 05:52 PM
To the OP, I didn't know resting the barrel on something would affect sighting in. How does it affect it, and what is the proper way? Thank you!
Let me rephrase the comment, I see how it can be miscontrued. The shooter while shooting his rifle would place the barrel on the sandbag and shoot it in that manner instead of resting the forend of the stock. By placing the barrel on the sandbag it creates a pressure point and changes the harmonics of the barrel. The stock would at times be on the sandbag and at other times it would be on the barrel as he shot. There was no consistency. At least the deer may have a chance.

ms6852
November 8, 2010, 05:53 PM
Nice shooting with a real rifle. You never said he finished sighting in his rifle; only that he was satisfied.
Thanks I really like my remington.

ms6852
November 8, 2010, 05:57 PM
Do you have a problem with people that shoot store bought ammo? What's the point of that comment? Not everyone reloads...
There is no malicious intent made with my comment. I don't reload anymore since my brother got all my reloading equipment stolen from his home. If anything the more experience shooters will reload or buy the better brand of ammo. My apologies if you were insulted.

ms6852
November 8, 2010, 06:06 PM
In part, I can see why the guy wasn't pleased with you...which is part of the reason I don't care for dealing with the public at gun ranges (be it a public range or a well attended private range). While I agree that your critique may be right (as you don't know how he rests his rifle, or if) while hunting and so you don't know how what he is doing will affect his hunting (assuming he is going to be hunting). Maybe the guy is trying to figure out how barrel harmonics are distorted and accuracy affected when the gun is rested on the barrel. You didn't ask, did you?

It is annoying when folks open up with some sort of critique about something for which they don't have all the information. Sometimes folks were helpful, but in a lot of cases the were just folks who just liked to hear themselves sound like they knew what they were talking about when they did not.

I was working on trying to learn how to judge the wind (without all those arfifical spinning flowers and wind guages the benchresters use) and was shooting 55 gr. .223 at 200 yards. There were only three of us shooting and I was the only one shooting at 200 yards. My group with pathetic. A guy from the 50 yard table comes over with his binoculars and stares at my target and finally tells me that "today isn't a good day to be shooting for groups." I thanked him and explained that today was the perfect day for shooting for groups if one is trying to learn how to judge wind speed and doesn't have any other days off this week. So he asks what ammo I am using and then proceeds to tell me how I don't want to be shooting 55 gr. ammo in a cross wind. I asked what ammo I should be using given that I didn't have any other ammo what his choice would be, a) 55 gr., b) 55 gr., or c) 55 gr.

He then started in on how my barrel was getting too hot.....

"Why does everyone else know more about what I am doing than I do when they don't know what I am doing?" was what came to mind. The previous week a guy had gone into detail how my rifle wasn't good for what I was doing, but he never asked what I was doing.

So basically, your opening salvo was telling the guy that he didn't know what he was doing. I realize you were tryng to be helpful, but if the guy is shooting crappy groups (and we assume he wants to do better) and is probably frustrated, then your approach likely was seen as nitpicking and rude.

You probably didn't have time to engage the gun in polite conversation so that there could be a two way understanding of information and shared interests. So he just saw you as a know-it-all busy body at a time when he probably wasn't having a good day.
Yes you are right and I should have kept my mouth shut.

1KPerDay
November 8, 2010, 06:08 PM
If I had a wife and a girlfriend, I wouldn't want either of them to know how to shoot. :D

Win. LOL

wanderinwalker
November 8, 2010, 06:12 PM
There is advice at the range, and then there is advice at the range. They are two seperate entities, based on the approach.

First is the well-versed, smoothed in approach. Strike up a conversation with somebody and politely suggest, "Have you tried X?" or "I see you doing Y". Delivered properly and politely at the correct point of the conversation, this will normally get you at least an audience.

Second is the "You're doing it wrong" out of nowhere. That's the surest way to get ignored or a gruff response.

Also, if you ever spot somebody taking in interest in either what you are shooting or how you are shooting, I always take the opportunity to share a few rounds through my firearms or pointers on shooting. Sometimes, with my little S&W M-18 .22LR revolver or my AR match rifle, it gets to be a little of both! ;)

eastbank
November 8, 2010, 06:12 PM
i have been reloading since 1958, not because they shoot better than factory ammo(some times they don,t). i enjoy it and it allows me to shoot more for my dollar and i own a lot of odd ball rifles and its the only way to shoot them. i am still useing my first set of dies,a set of hollywood 30-06 dies that i paid 4.00 for in 1958,they have out lasted quite a few rifle barrels and are still going strong. but the big factor for most will be for the savings over factory ammo. eastbank.

ms6852
November 8, 2010, 06:26 PM
i have been reloading since 1958, not because they shoot better than factory ammo(some times they don,t). i enjoy it and it allows me to shoot more for my dollar and i own a lot of odd ball rifles and its the only way to shoot them. i am still useing my first set of dies,a set of hollywood 30-06 dies that i paid 4.00 for in 1958,they have out lasted quite a few rifle barrels and are still going strong. but the big factor for most will be for the savings over factory ammo. eastbank.
The point I was trying to make and failed badly about store bought ammo was in reference to my younger years. I did not shoot alot because I could not afford it back than. So whenever I shot it was usually once or twice a year and I would buy ammo from the store. Since I shot very little my experience was not as great. My brothers are not great shooters and have little experience so I know they only buy on certain occasion. Unlike me I shoot at least 10 times a month.

JDMorris
November 8, 2010, 07:32 PM
I never get lip from anyone because I work at the range.

MrWesson
November 8, 2010, 07:43 PM
I never get lip from anyone because I work at the range.

Looks like we found the guy from the range officers who think they are lee ermey thread lol

stubbicatt
November 8, 2010, 08:00 PM
Keeripes! Really? Really!

This is the sort of stuff seen on other (AR15) type sites. Punch some guy in the face for offering a suggestion of how to benchrest a rifle?

hardluk1
November 8, 2010, 08:03 PM
ms6852 I have a 511P that shoots like that with my grand kid. Big deal all of them should be able to do that at 50 yards. And i also shoot factory ammo when hunting and darned if they don't shoot right fine. But some factory loads don't shoot so well, kinda like working up hand load. Interesting how most all military matches shoot factory ammo too.

MythBuster
November 8, 2010, 08:10 PM
As much as I love shooting if the only place I had to shoot was some public range with a bunch of morons I would quit today.

I would keep my carry gun and my SHTF rifle sell everything else and never shoot again unless I had to do so in defense of my life.

Claymore1500
November 8, 2010, 08:50 PM
Simple words to live by:

Never offer advise, wise men don't need it, and fools won't heed it.

I don't know who said it first, but it makes sense.

philthygeezer
November 8, 2010, 08:57 PM
In my experience, testosterone levels are at the max with some folks
when they have a firearm in their hand.

I especially like the men who are going to teach the wife or girlfriend (never at the same time) how to shoot.
The majority of them don't know much themselves, let alone teaching.

+1

You just raised the hair on the back of my neck. :mad:

An extension of this deplorable attitude is when someone seems to think they have safe firearms handling covered because they are male. That's when the gun goes away and the verbal attitude adjustment starts. :fire::fire: :banghead:

This abject, pig-ignorant stupidity is part of why women very often make better shooters than men.

There. I said it without profanity.

sappyg
November 8, 2010, 09:10 PM
/\ post reported for making dispareging remarks about pigs.

nathan
November 8, 2010, 09:22 PM
Dont give advise if not asked. If said shooter is sweeping his gun in either sides and do not practice muzzle discipline, you then step in to give advise or simple tell range master to correct said shooter. Safety is paramount for your safety and all.

52grain
November 8, 2010, 09:54 PM
Amazing how many bad shots there are in the world.

Jonny V
November 8, 2010, 10:03 PM
The bad shots are usually the ones with the belted magnums and the non stop bragging about how they're fixing to go hunting. Then you look and see that they can barely get hits on the 14" x 14" target at 50 yards with their scoped wonder.

The lack of skill being put on display by the majority of shooters these days is really appalling. Primarily, it's due to lack of effort, lack of knowledge, and flat out lack of concern.

Hatterasguy
November 8, 2010, 10:04 PM
I try as hard as I can to be the only person at the range when I go, at my club that's not that hard. I hate shooting with strangers.

JDMorris
November 8, 2010, 10:19 PM
I don't think I'm R. Lee Ermey. Im a 14 year old who works the trap/ skeet range and shoots rifle/ pistol. If Im working and somebody gives me an issue one of the ranger masters or club manager will handle it.

MrWesson
November 8, 2010, 10:25 PM
I don't think I'm R. Lee Ermey. Im a 14 year old who works the trap/ skeet range and shoots rifle/ pistol. If Im working and somebody gives me an issue one of the ranger masters or club manager will handle it.

I was just yanking your chain. :D

CZguy
November 8, 2010, 10:31 PM
/\ post reported for making dispareging remarks about pigs.

I like pigs...............but then I'm male. :neener:

JDMorris
November 8, 2010, 10:33 PM
Oh, alright then.

Dulvarian
November 8, 2010, 10:55 PM
It is a simple statement about our society that most people cannot approach someone else and open a conversation with them. I politely speak to most people that I meet, simply because it is the correct thing to do.

If I see someone doing something wrong and the conversation I have started having gives me a chance to give a piece of advice, I will. I also temper every statement with "I'm not an expert..." and "some research on the internet".

I'll put it this way. I've been offered the chance to shoot their guns more times than I have been rebuffed. I've shot some guns that I otherwise would not have had the chance to. And I have gotten a few pieces of advice as well.

The only ones that I don't talk to are the commandos.

Hedgemeister
November 9, 2010, 12:56 AM
All we need is mall ninjas patrolling the ranges and everything would be alright.

killchain
November 9, 2010, 03:14 AM
Honestly, unless it's a safety violation, I would mind my own business.

You wouldn't want some random guy you don't know telling you what to do.

killchain
November 9, 2010, 03:15 AM
i try as hard as i can to be the only person at the range when i go, at my club that's not that hard. I hate shooting with strangers.
+1,000,001

General Lee
November 9, 2010, 07:37 AM
When I go to the range I will talk to people, but I never offer advice unless asked.

wanderinwalker
November 9, 2010, 07:44 AM
Forgot, if it's a safety violation, the response is quick, corrective and without apology. There is no excuse for handling firearms while people are down range, sweeping muzzles, shooting from behind the line, etc. I had somebody rack a pistol while I was downrange, ONCE.

eastbank
November 9, 2010, 08:16 AM
the ones who win the most military matches, use nation match ammo that is loaded as good as it gets for mass produced ammo or top shelf civilian match ammo. i help in the pits pulling targets at the matches and we know the ones who are shooting good ammo. the varmite matches are also a place to see good ammo at work. eastbank.

Art Eatman
November 9, 2010, 10:04 AM
Hokay...Enough venting and wandering for one thread...

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