[Jeff White]

Army Times ran this picture yesterday with this caption:

"A sniper from Charlie Company, 5th Battalion, 3rd Brigade, 20th Infantry Regiment, 2nd Infantry Division looks for targets as he heads to Samarra in support of Operation Arrowhead Blizzard."

JShirley, did the snipers in 2d ID use M21s when you were there? The M21 was so scarce back in the '80s that most units still had the M1D in their arms rooms. I'd bet that this is an M14 the soldier put a scope on. Any other guesses?

Jeff

[DMK]

Doesn't the M21 have a fiberglass stock? This one appears wood.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=673972

[j.wise]

It sure does look a LOT like my M21. The M21 has a fiberglass BEDDED stock. The plastic top piece with the walnut is exactly how Springfield sends them out of the factory. If we could see the buttstock it would be easier to ID the rifle.

Excellent pic. Very cool...

[Nightcrawler]

What exactly are the differences between the M14 and M21? Weight, performance, etc?

[Blackcloud6]

I commanded a rifle company (C, 1/23 Inf, Camp Hovey) in the 2ID in Korea in 1985 and we had M21s.

[j.wise]

The differences between an M14 and M21 are as follows:

M14 is select-fire, M21 is not.
M21 is glass-bedded in a walnut stock with an adjustable cheek-piece, M14 is not.
M21 uses a match-grade barrel, trigger, and rear sight assembly; M14 does not.
And of course the fact that the M21 can shoot circles around a standard M1A/M14.

[El Tejon]

Isn't that a 14???:confused:

[Jeff White]

I never saw an M21 with the selector switch installed. And I never saw one with an adjustable cheekpiece.

The M21 was a nightmare to keep shooting accurately. It had to go back to higher echelon maintenance for cleaning, because you had to re-bed the action everytime you removed it. I'm sticking with my original ID as an M14.

Jeff

[tiberius]

And of course the fact that the M21 can shoot circles around a standard M1A/M14.

Strange expression / mixed metaphor alert. This makes it sound like the M21 shoots the larger groups. :D

Seriously though, I don't think that you could tell from this angle since they are fundamentally the same rifle. We'll just have to trust the guys who have BTDT in regards to what they used.

[Telperion]

Don't know about the selector, but the flash suppressor looks more like the NM/M21 version than the M14. Maybe it's the focus, but the hole diameter looks a little bit larger than the USGI version.

[Willard]

When I was an infantryman in the 2nd ID (A 2/503rd at Camp Hovey-we WERE the 1/38th Inf until 1988) in 1989 we had 9 NM-M14's for squad DM's. The BN snipers had just given up there M-21's for M-24's.

That could be any of the three-standard M-14, NM-M14, or M-21.

Can't tell the mount but it's a M-1, 2, 3 Leupold scope and high looks like Badger rings.....

Either way it's a good choice for what they are doing, and demonstrates that the Army is finally realizing it needs snipers (or DM's) at the platoon and squad level.

[Steve Smith]

Jeff, I'm kinda curious, so help me out. With my Highpower experience, I know that one rarely if ever removes his M1A from the stock, but instead cleans it in the stock. The M1A/M14/21 is much easier to keep accurate if you do this. A match grade HP gun and an M21 are not very different. Did your supervisors insist that you remove the gun from the stock? Why did they do that when the rifle it it's most accurate when left in the stock? As you know, everything except the op rod spring can be serviced with the gun in the stock.

[Langenator]

I was assigned to HHC, 5-20 IN until August. All of the snipers in the battalion have the bolt action rifles (M24 IIRC-the Marines have the M40, right?)

When I left, the unit was receiving M14s for the SDMs. However, I would have expected the SDMs to have ACOGs, which is what they had on their M4s, not a big telescopic scope like the one in the picture.

Blackcloud, if you're interested, 1-23 IN "Tomahawks" are now part of the 3rd Bde, 2ID (Stryker), based at Ft Lewis, WA, now in action in Iraq.

[Blackcloud6]

Langenator:

<<Blackcloud, if you're interested, 1-23 IN "Tomahawks" are now part of the 3rd Bde, 2ID (Stryker), based at Ft Lewis, WA, now in action in Iraq.>>

Tahnks!, Cool, TOMAHAWK!

I was the threat analyst for the Stryker program up until this spring. Hope all goes well for them guys!

[AJ Dual]

Interesting. I noticed the helmet he's wearing...

Are DM's attached to armor units?

[Willard]

They're Stryker mounted mechanized infantry, so a vehicle crewmans helmet is apropriate. I think it's called a CVC, Combat Vehicle Crewman helmet. he can communicate with the driver and commander with its built in commo gear.


The squad snipers are likely "Designated Marksmen", that is regular joe's with some degree of ability, but not likely formal sniper training.

[tire iron]

The snipers I know have the lens covers flip 'down' - and if that is not possible for them to flip straight 'up' - not 'hokey-pokey' like the lens covers in the picture - as a reflection off the lens cover can be a 'target indiciator'.

However, this comment in no way is 100% definitive as to whether or not this is a 'real deal' sniper with an M21 - but - it does lead me to believe that this is an M14 that a 'regular' Joe put a scope on.

cheers

tire iron

[Jeff White]

Steve,
We had M1Ds until the M24 came into the system. The only actual experience I have with the M21 was in the old 47th ID Sniper School in 1988. They managed to scrape a few M21s up and issued them to the left handed firers. the rest of us had M1Ds. The guys with the M21s turned theirs in for the armorer to clean. I have no idea if they took them out of the action and rebedded them each time. I just know they didn't want the shooters messing with them. I know that one of the reasons given for development of the M24 was that the M21 had to go to an armorer for routine maintenance.

Jeff

[Grump]

I vote for M14 with a big-ol' scope because that sure looks like a selector switch on that receiver. Didn't M21s have the selector lock welded in? (yeah, yeah, that mod can be reversed, but who wants to?)

I recall no reports of Harris bipods being mounted on M21s, either. Of course, there is always the "first" or the exception to the rule. We admire resourceful grunts, right? :D

As for NM or not, we can't tell from here.

[Spieler]

Here's another variant.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=680145

Spc. Christopher Wilson, left, and Sgt. Randall Davis, a sniper team for Bravo Company, 5th Battalion, 3rd Brigade, 20th Infantry Regiment, 2nd Infantry Division, hold sniper rifles used during operations in and around Samarra. Leaders maintain that the Stryker brigade’s abundance of snipers is ideal for limiting collateral damage and civilian casualties during guerilla-style fighting.

[Willard]

AWESOME! M-14 with a RIS and an EOTech! Damn, I bet that's one fast setup!

As a former 2nd ID trooper I'm really, really happy to see that Uncle Sugar is providing such fine equipment to our troops! About time is all I can say.


Warriors!

[Langenator]

Re: the shooter wearing the CVC helmet

He's actually in the vehicle, standing up throught the hatch-you can see the hatch and part of the latch mechanism in the foreground. I'd be willing to bet that he's talking to the vehicle commander/gunner, who is using the thermal sights on the vehicle remote weapon station (RWS-mounts an M2 or MK19) to scan for targets.

Spieler-where did you get that picture? My good friend commands that company (B/5-20) and I'd love to save the picture and article for him.

[Spieler]

Langenator

Here's the link to the ARMY Times Online which has a daily photo gallery. Lots of good operational pics. The photo above was in the 12/22/03 gallery.

http://www.armytimes.com/channel.php?GQID=show

[Spieler]

Another shot :D

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=680388

[Langenator]

Thanks Spieler.

Not sure my buddy has email access yet, but I sent the link to him and his wife.