Any chance of some sense coming to Colorado?


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Diamondback6
November 9, 2010, 03:51 AM
Anyone thought about how the election results alter Colorado's 2A landscape, particularly with respect to the likelihood of restoring some respect for non-residents' right to self-defense?

I mean, there's a lot of stuff I'd like to see, but until the fool pols come to their senses, my travel budget is going to places that actually have a clue. I mean, how hard would it be to insert a clause about "other states' nonresident permits will be accepted as long as the holder is not a Colorado resident" to replace the current "no nonresident out-of-state", or to expand non-resident Colorado permit issue?

Any lawyers among us have ideas for a simple proposed rewrite of the statute, or anybody have ideas for key points in a letter-writing campaign?

More to the point, am I the only one who would care enough to participate in such a campaign? Yes, it was years, but my score in the "CCW Reciprocity" going down a point because of some fool politicos is still a major cheese-off...

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hso
November 10, 2010, 11:30 AM
Here's a link to some "example" letters that might prove useful - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=279431
When TN was debating restaurant carry changes there were some good letters written addressing how safe permit holders were compared to the general public and how tourist dollars were important to Nashville and the state as a whole.

CoRoMo
November 10, 2010, 03:08 PM
I've been quite active here in regards to contacting/writing the elected offices and asking them to back off the gun control measures. They haven't listened so far, but I encourage everyone to do this. If you believe the Californi-fication theory, then we are up against a tide of Ex-Cali residents who are moving here and voting for this state to become California part II. I think it is true.

Our soon to be former-governor signed a few bits of gun control into law, and my neighbors have just elected an outspoken/admittedly/proud anti-gun replacement to be our next governor. He's been one of Bloomberg's mayors, and now he is governor-elect. If there is any chance in Hades that this state won't end up like California, it will only happen because the ruling class had to climb into their offices, over a pile of letters & envelopes.

hso
November 10, 2010, 04:06 PM
Do you think you're seeing a two different COs? Ranch/Farm vs. Denver/urban. Is it that the Ranch/Farm population isn't organizing to balance the higher population density urban population? Should attention and education be focused on the urban population for the greatest benefit or should the effort be put into motivating the Ranch/Farm population (assuming enough of them could be motivated)?

Is it that the Ranch/Farm population just doesn't care about this issue because their local mayors and sheriff's aren't going to enforce/follow restrictions in a meaningful way?

coloradokevin
November 10, 2010, 05:06 PM
Overall Colorado really isn't bad in terms of gun laws. To highlight a couple of notable examples (as compared to other states where I've lived):

1) You may carry a loaded/concealed handgun in your vehicle without having a CCW permit, since your vehicle is considered an extension of your home. This even includes motorcycles.

2) You may target shoot in many national forest areas in Colorado.

3) CCW permits are much more easily available than they are in many states (although there are still a couple of hoops to jump through on these).

4) We don't have CA-style hi-cap/assault weapons bans.

Granted, the future might look fuzzy around here. As HSO said, we really have two different versions of Colorado these days. The traditional farming/ranching/conservative culture is quickly being out-voted by a growing liberal/urban populace in the Denver metro area. When compared to the rest of the state, the city of Denver is pretty anti-gun, though the state has limited their ability to enforce many of their anti-gun laws (and, most of the Denver cops are pro gun). And, unfortunately, this state has just elected Denver mayor as the next governor. I've spoken with Hickenlooper personally on a number of occasions, and although the subject of guns has never come up, I get the impression that he prefers to follow the typical Democrat agenda to a T.

As for the OP's concerns, I think that they might be a bit unfounded. The last I checked, Colorado's law was simply that we would provide reciprocity to the states who accepted Colorado CCW permits. So, since Washington state apparently doesn't accept Colorado CCW permits, Colorado is not willing to officially accept permits from WA state. While somewhat backwards, it also seems somewhat fair.

Regardless, an out-of-state visitor would still be allowed to have a concealed weapon in their vehicle (which MANY states don't allow). Also, although there are no guarantees on this part, you still may not have a problem even if you are from a non-accepted state, depending on the officer who contacts you.

CoRoMo
November 10, 2010, 05:26 PM
Two different Colorados... absolutely. Many of the voters who live in/around the Denver metro area, plus those who live along I-70 that are in the upper, upper class (Aspen, Vail, ect.) tend not to vote in favor of our issues. The RKBA battle is still either won or lost in conjunction with all the other political positions. You win or lose, only because people are voting for or against other issues. Few at all, vote with RKBA in mind, but most all running for office make a claim in favor of RKBA when it is time to campaign. Of course, the 2A is ONLY and always tied to hunting, so that will end only one way: more gun control.

The influx of people moving in from other states is probably also heavily one-sided, politically speaking. Either those escaping less-free states for neutral ground like Colorado, or leaving far-freer states for some neutral ground like Colorado. They come here instead of moving to Tennessee or Wisconsin, and vote to make this place nothing like Tennessee and more like Wisconsin.

Neither gubernatorial candidate from the two main parties was pro-2A this time around. That tells me that the state as a whole is simply moving in one general direction. However, I truly believe that the farm/rural communities, and others that normally vote in favor of this issue, would be greatly motivated by a good solid candidate that they identified with. Also, a third party candidate did far better than the conventional party of that persuasion, and that example shows how horrible a choice the mainstream party candidate was.

I believe early selection efforts are key to policy changes here. We are failing in that regard. We are opting for name recognition or whatever, and forgetting about the substance.

CoRoMo
November 10, 2010, 05:32 PM
...the OP's concerns... might be a bit unfounded.
If he holds a non-resident permit, it doesn't matter where or what, Colorado won't honor it. That, is what I think the OP is posting about.

Hickenlooper has mentioned one-gun-a-month laws, as an example of his preferences. So I think we're in for it during his reign. But if the state houses don't send him gun control laws, we have nothing from him to worry about.

Diamondback6
November 10, 2010, 09:01 PM
Bingo, CoRoMo--the Florida permit would have covered Colorado when I started the paperwork (yes, this beef is that old), but then they adopted that stupid "Resident Permits Only" clause.

If it was about revenue and CO residents carrying on out-of-state permits, how hard would it be to write a clause about "Out-of-state nonresident permits shall not be honored when the bearer is a Colorado resident"?

Having a gun in the car's all well and good, but what about when I leave the vehicle? More rural areas and smaller towns like maybe Grand Junction or Pueblo it might fly to open-carry, but Denver Metro I'd put my money on concealed being a "guaranteed bust" and open-carry being at least a harassing "Disorderly Conduct".

One-Time
November 10, 2010, 09:53 PM
I dont know, it seems all the liberals who ruined Cali are now moving to Oregon, Washington and Colorado and I bet it will get worse. I hope y'all keep up the good fight though!

hso
November 11, 2010, 01:12 AM
I'm pretty sure the members living in CO have a solid understanding of their state laws, political realities and their implications.

So, since TN recognizes CO permits, does CO recognize mine? Yep.

Do they recognize non-resident permits as good in CO? Nope. Why? Looks like they took the position that if you won't recognize permits carried by our citizens we won't recognize any carried by yours.

Pursuant to Colorado law (CRS 18-12-213), the State of Colorado will recognize a valid permit issued in another state IF the permit was issued to a resident of the state issuing the permit, and the permit tee is 21 yrs of age or older, AND the other state recognizes Colorado permits as valid in their state. Hence, a "yes" in the following table also indicates that a valid Colorado permit is recognized in that state, subject to their laws. When traveling with a Colorado permit, it is advisable to contact the state you are visiting to confirm reciprocity and to review that state's firearms laws.

The state of Colorado no longer recognizes the validity of any permit issued by any state to a nonresident of that state (see C.R.S 18-12-213 amended 2007), specifically they must be a resident of the state that issued the concealed handgun permit and must be in possession of a valid drivers license or identification card issued by that same state.

coloradokevin
November 11, 2010, 05:27 AM
If he holds a non-resident permit, it doesn't matter where or what, Colorado won't honor it. That, is what I think the OP is posting about.

Hickenlooper has mentioned one-gun-a-month laws, as an example of his preferences. So I think we're in for it during his reign. But if the state houses don't send him gun control laws, we have nothing from him to worry about.


Ahhh... I see that I apparently misunderstood part of what he was saying. I thought the OP was saying that Colorado wouldn't honor permits from other states, and I failed to read carefully enough to see that he was making a reference to an out-of-state non-resident permit.

For the activism side of this thread, I think the OP is going to have a tough time selling his case to the Colorado legislature. After all, I'm sorry to say that out-of-state non-resident permit holders who care about this law probably represent a very small sales tax base in the grander scheme of things, and they also have no ability to vote for the lawmakers who are passing such laws.

Perhaps the more appropriate way to approach this issue would be to gain the support of various lobbying groups? If the NRA (etc) starts putting pressure on the state legislature regarding these issues, perhaps the state would be more inclined to adjust such laws, given the size of the voter base that pays attention to NRA-related issues.

But, once again, I think Colorado is approaching this with the point-of-view that they simply don't care to honor the permits for residents of states where our residents' permits will not be honored (in which case the OP would be better served to lobby for changes in the laws of his home state of Washington).

Personally, I can appreciate the concerns of those who travel with CCW permits. I'm fortunate enough that my credentials as a police officer (now) give me the ability to carry in all 50 states, and I'd love to see a nationwide concealed carry system become available for everyone else. Unfortunately the existing patchwork of conflicting state laws can make things a bit trying for everyone else who isn't employed in a law enforcement capacity! It concerns me that my own friends/family can't readily protect themselves when traveling on interstate highways through some states in this country.

As far as the overall political climate in Colorado is concerned, we might be in for a rough ride with our new governor, and anyone who is pro-gun in Colorado probably realizes this right now. Of course, our current governor isn't exactly a friend of the 2nd Ammendment either... I still think Hickenlooper will be worse though.

CoRoMo
November 11, 2010, 12:47 PM
I read it like that the first time around too.
If it was about revenue and CO residents carrying on out-of-state permits...
It's never about anything other than control. The legislature and governor didn't like how free we were. I hope some of the people in my state got a clue.

As I eluded to earlier, we need good candidates... period. When one party puts up a quirky and popular mayor with excellent name recognition, and the other puts up a nobody born in Chicago and raised at a lake house in Wisconsin, well... Colorado will go with the popular, funny guy they know. What I hope for is some good, solid and honorable Coloradoans to have the courage to run for office and tell us clearly who they are. One such individual almost became governor of our state on a third party ticket.

So we'll take a lap, and hope the state houses are aligned differently than the governor's mansion, and in four years we'll try again.

X-Rap
November 11, 2010, 01:03 PM
Yes we went through quite a fiasco with the top candidate before he went down in flames leaving the total unknown to be the nominee. JP should have been the guy and I hope he can get it next time.
The battle lines are being drawn in the west between the population centers and the rural, I said it years ago when I lived in NM and saw how the I 25 corridor ran that state as well. Take a look at any rural state and you will see the same thing, remember that when you rail against the electoral college.
Colorado for the most part is a pretty good 2a state but there are definitely those who are anti and in power.

hso
November 11, 2010, 04:12 PM
Let's focus on coming up with some positive action instead of bemoaning the current situation. What can be done by Coloradans and what can be done to help by those of us that visit, but live elsewhere?

CoRoMo
November 11, 2010, 05:42 PM
Residents of may-issue or no-issue states could help us out in this. If you live in a may-issue or right denied state, I'd appreciate it if you would write to the Colorado legislature. If someone you know, lives in one of the non-shall-issue states in this map (http://www.handgunlaw.us/), tell them to help change Colorado's law. Your state won't easily issue you a permit, therefore you probably hold a non-resident permit from Florida, Utah, etc. You don't have a choice in the matter, and my state won't honor it.

Write some of the elected powers here and tell them that this law is keeping your vacation dollars out of Colorado's economy. When you take a ski vacation, hunting trip, summer vacation to the Rocky Mountains, you'll have to go to New Mexico, Wyoming, Idaho, or Utah. Even if you hold a resident permit from your state, but also have a non-resident permit, write to them and tell them that they are only hurting Colorado by not honoring your non-resident permit.

Here is a site where you can contact someone in our General Assembly.
http://www.leg.state.co.us/Clics/CLICS2010A/csl.nsf/directory?openframeset

Here is the site where you can contact our next governor.
http://www.colorado.gov/GOVERNOR
Keep in mind that if you use the Contact The Governor link, you are contacting the current governor who put this law on the books. It would be best if you waited until after the first of the year to contact Hickenlooper, but the General Assembly needs to hear from you more than the governor. We can bombard his office when the bill is on its way to his desk.

If you would do this... THANK YOU!!

leadcounsel
November 11, 2010, 07:34 PM
Need to fix the situation - in ALL states - that strip you of your CCW right for a period of time between moves, when you are really most vulnerable and least savy...

If you move into a state that recognizes non resident state permit, you have an overlap. However, if you move into a state that doesn't honor said nonresident permit, you can imagine a period of many months until you gain residency, take course, apply for permit, etc. where you HAVE LESS RIGHTS IN YOUR STATE OF RESIDENCE than in an adjoining state that honors the nonresident permit. Makes no sense.

BTW does Denver and/or other parts still prohibit hi-cap mags and other AWB remnants?

X-Rap
November 11, 2010, 08:54 PM
BTW does Denver and/or other parts still prohibit hi-cap mags and other AWB remnants?

When I go there I carry 10 rd mags and leave my AR at home, I live on the western slope but will soon have both my boys living in posts and bases in the CS area. When I go to the Academy I have to stop at a friends house and disarm I'm wondering how Ft Carson will be when I visit, from what I read so long as I register I might be able to go on post with my pistol at least in my car. I see no such provision at the AFA.

jeepmor
November 13, 2010, 02:23 AM
I dont know, it seems all the liberals who ruined Cali are now moving to Oregon, Washington and Colorado and I bet it will get worse. I hope y'all keep up the good fight though!

No kidding, look at Bend, OR for example. It's gotten so bad that the people that moved up from CA with windfalls of cash are complaining that it's become the "place they left" without realizing that they made it what it is today.

I've read many a frustrated post on the likes of the folks in Boulder, CO, and it's spreading.

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