AR for farm patrol


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txhoghunter
November 9, 2010, 12:40 PM
So out on the farm we have been having problems with aggressive wild dogs. We can no longer go out for a walk or a run unarmed, and I honestly feel quite unprotected with my Sig P220 on my hip. I am looking for an AR to fill a need for more power and still have a very versatile rifle. First off, what would you suggest as the base rifle, and then what type of add-ons?

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tkcomer
November 9, 2010, 01:03 PM
If your going to pack the rifle around, I'd suggest a 16” gun with a collapsible stock. The lighter, the better. I'd also get the flat top upper and no front sight for optic duty. Range to target will determine what optic to use.

txhoghunter
November 9, 2010, 01:18 PM
Range out there varies from one area to another. I'm considering an Eotech with a magnifier on a QD mount. Has anyone used this setup? And if so, how does it handle?

X-Rap
November 9, 2010, 01:22 PM
I use a 16" with an Eotec for similar use and the sight without the magnifier is pretty good to a couple hundred yds. on coyotes and the like.

C-grunt
November 9, 2010, 01:26 PM
Check out BCM for just about any configuration you can think of. I would look at a 16 inch light weight profile.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-Upper-Receiver-Groups-s/1.htm

ForumSurfer
November 9, 2010, 01:42 PM
I often use the buis on mine. I've never taken it to a range, just for around the property plinking.

16" barrel with an eotech suits me nicely, although lately I've been wanting a magnifier. I've also been looking at the specter length yankee hill machine free float rail fore ends. I'm wondering if the extra inch or two of sight radius will make a difference. Since the yhm rails join to the flat top upper rail, it seems to me that I would have a ton of room for the eotech, magnifier and buis.

highorder
November 9, 2010, 01:46 PM
I honestly feel quite unprotected with my Sig P220 on my hip.

Really?

You might want to consider some more practice/training with your Sig, as opposed to looking for security from a different weapon.

txhoghunter
November 9, 2010, 01:49 PM
Don't get me wrong, that Sig is the only sidearm I will keep with me, but the fact is, when there is a pack of pit bulls around you, a .44 mag can make you feel inadequate. I have had a .45 round ricochet of the skull of one.

txhoghunter
November 9, 2010, 01:50 PM
Basically, I am wanting to hit these animals before they are within .45 ACP range.

highorder
November 9, 2010, 01:58 PM
Basically, I am wanting to hit these animals before they are within .45 ACP range.

Understood.

Instead of walking every day with a pistol, perhaps just a few days with a scoped rifle? If they are dangerous, and on your property, can you eliminate them as you see fit?

jmorris
November 9, 2010, 01:59 PM
10.5” with a suppressor and an ACOG. No batteries to die, no buttons to push, always on and ready. With the suppressor you don’t need to spend any time protecting your ears and with the 10.5” barrel you are still shorter than a regular 16” AR.

txhoghunter
November 9, 2010, 02:22 PM
Yeah a full out scoped rifle (like my .270 WSM) is just too much magnification and recoil for quick follow up shots, and I don't have a semi-auto rifle which, with a pack of dogs, is quite necessary. My only concern with an ACOG would be that it will be too much magnification should the dogs catch me off guard a little closer.

Zerodefect
November 9, 2010, 02:22 PM
Range out there varies from one area to another. I'm considering an Eotech with a magnifier on a QD mount. Has anyone used this setup? And if so, how does it handle?

If your going to use a 1x red dot and magnifier: The Aimpoint CompM3 in a Larue Lt129 and the Aimpoint magnifier in a Larue flip mount match up perfectly. Far better than the Eo combos I've tried.

Handles excellent. Very durable. The magnifier is a bit of dead weight, but that's why you put it in a QR mount.

A 1-4x Trijicon Accupoint or Nightforce scope may work for you as well.

Sky
November 9, 2010, 02:45 PM
A 14.5 with fixed flash suppressor can be had for not that much or under $1000. It is light and maneuverable; put a cheap $150 Vortec Strikefire on top, zero in, and u be ready for anything you are likely to come across. I have no problem taking game up to 200 yards with that rig ( I use a scope out further but I am old ). You can spend more and even get stuff that works better but for the money what I posted is hard to beat. Ammo from aimsurplus and tell the dogs to "bring it on"!

coloradokevin
November 9, 2010, 03:56 PM
Range out there varies from one area to another. I'm considering an Eotech with a magnifier on a QD mount. Has anyone used this setup? And if so, how does it handle?

I carry an Eotech equipped AR-15 for LE duty use, and I love the Eotech. It provides fast target acquisition, and works great in a low-light environment. I haven't added the magnifier to mine, but the non-magnified Eotech still works well for my needs (I've shot to 300 yards with the non-magnified version).

jmorris
November 9, 2010, 04:24 PM
My only concern with an ACOG would be that it will be too much magnification should the dogs catch me off guard a little closer.


The ACOG reflex (center below) is just like a battery powered zero magnification red dot, except that it uses tritium and fiber optic. It is self adjusting with no buttons or batteries. I also have Aimpoints, Cmores (top/bottom) and others but they require the user to do something at some point to turn on or adjust for ambient light. The rifle at the bottom is one of my 3-gun rifles with the 1-4 scope and 1 o’clock Cmore, it is both quick up close and accurate at distance but if you shoot a compensated rifle like that without plugs you won’t hear anything except ringing in your ears for a few days. That is why I use suppressed for non game animal, “surprise” type situations.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/can/DSC02227.jpg

txhoghunter
November 9, 2010, 05:41 PM
Thank you very much for all of the suggestions, now for another question: What ammunition do yall recommend? What ammunition do you use in your AR when you are on duty colorado kev?

jmorris
November 9, 2010, 06:09 PM
I use 55g soft points most of the time, they cost less than the other bullets I use except for 55g FMJs. If you don't mind the cost ballistic tips, V-max and some hollow points perform better. Some hollow points with thin "varmit" jackets come apart leaving fast twist AR's, just so you know.

DoubleTapDrew
November 9, 2010, 06:12 PM
I have EO Techs on my ARs and love them. I wouldn't bother with the magnifier since they are perfectly fine for a few hundred yards without it and adding one will get the price up towards ACOG territory.

For dogs any 5.56 ammo will do as long as it shoots ok in your rifle. Lately the prices are down to about $300/1k for M193 (mil-spec type stuff which fragments nicely out to about 150yds in a 16" barrel) from the major online retailers. You can get steel cased non-reloadable ammo like Wolf for around $200/1k but buy a couple boxes first to make sure it functions reliably in your particular rifle. They are fine in most ARs but there's a few that don't like it. It's not usually as accurate as the brass cased stuff, it stinks, and the bullets have thicker jackets and usually won't fragment, but it'll do the job on dogs and it's cheap.

Maverick223
November 9, 2010, 06:46 PM
...when there is a pack of pit bulls around you, a .44 mag can make you feel inadequate. I have had a .45 round ricochet of the skull of one.I think you missed, or perhaps grazed the target....45ACP has a nasty habit of penetrating pretty well. That said, I too feel more comfortable with a long gun. In this instance I believe a shogun may be the best medicine as it affords near instant incapacitation with a decent hit as well as a little more forgiveness in shot placement than the average rifle. Range shouldn't be a concern unless you are hunting dogs and, well, that'd be a bit weird. :p I would recommend No. 4 or 1 buck, but Double Ought will work pretty well too (and do a bit better on bigger critters).

If you just want a rifle (nothing wrong with that), then the AR-15 would be a decent choice, as would most other SA intermediate cartridge rifles (like the M1 Carbine, Mini 14/30, AK, SKS, et al). Loaded with most any cartridge, any of the aforementioned should work well enough, though a good Ballistic Tip, HP, or SP will probably afford the best performance.

:)

GunTech
November 9, 2010, 06:53 PM
Pack of feral dogs? Benelli M1 with #4 or 00?

Bovice
November 9, 2010, 06:56 PM
My only concern with an ACOG would be that it will be too much magnification should the dogs catch me off guard a little closer.

That's why you practice transitioning to your sidearm. I have no doubt in my mind that a .45 ACP will absolutely destroy the dog, pitbull or not. Pitbulls aren't bears. Just don't miss.

jsimmons
November 9, 2010, 07:06 PM
Thank you very much for all of the suggestions, now for another question: What ammunition do yall recommend? What ammunition do you use in your AR when you are on duty colorado kev?
Just get some Tula from Wal-mart. It's more accurate than you might think, and it's only $5 per box of 20.

BTW, if you get an AR, you can lighten it up by using a MicroDot RDS and a carbon fiber floating hand guard. If you want magnified optics, I'd get a quality 1-4x scope instead of having a rds and a magnifier.

ECVMatt
November 9, 2010, 07:42 PM
I am going to go with the scoped rifle crowd. AR's are not truck friendly. The mag sticks out and cuts the interior, the rifle is tall with the PG and Scope and sometimes is difficult to stick out the window and you need some type of tactical sling to carry it around comfortably. We made good war on the maurading dogs up near Telephone, Tx with Remington M-700's and Ruger M-77's. I would look at a good .22-250 or a .243 with 80-85 grain bullets. They both have very light recoil, can shoot far and come in ranch friendly packages. One day we were shooting some big, white, furry, dogs. I had a .223 and my partner had a 250. He dropped his dead and mine took a couple more rounds to help him down the highway to the hereafter. I am not saying the .223 is not lethal, I like it a lot, but the 250 or the .243 just work much better especially on bigger sized dogs. Get a Leupold 1-4 if you want low magnification.

Hope this helps.

Matt

RockyMtnTactical
November 9, 2010, 07:49 PM
Yeah, I'd try a BCM.

txhoghunter
November 9, 2010, 07:59 PM
Ok I'm going to clarify a few things. Starting with Mav's comment, I did not "miss" the dog, not even close. After the 4 follow up body shots, we found my first round had hit the dog between the eyes. Considering the angle of the head and my firing position, it hit the skull at an angle and I am hoping that a high powered rifle will push through instead of ricochet. Currently, we have a few Remington 870's and they work well, I just don't like how long it takes to reload should I need to.

On to Bovice's comment, I don't know if you are, but I am not ex-military, nor a LEO, so as much as I train with transitions, I will be slower than most. Don't get me wrong, I AM keeping my Sig on my side and will, if I have to use it again without hesitating. However, I would like to kill these things before they are within pouncing range.

Matt, my problem with a scoped rifle is that 1) these are [I]pack[I] animals that are usually very aggressive and will attack rather than run when given the choice; and 2) I will be either on foot, or on an ATV for the most part, not inside a truck so the mag of an AR will not get caught so that really is not a drawback. A bolt gun will give me one shot and then the others are on top of me. Yes I know the .223 does not have the stopping power of a .308 but in this particular case, I would rather have 30 rounds of .223 as opposed to, if I'm lucky, 3-4 rounds of .308 out of a bolt rifle.

Thank you for all of the input and God bless

Hatterasguy
November 9, 2010, 08:10 PM
What about a mini 14 or that Kel tec 16 or whatever they call it. Both seem to be built for this kind of thing and light.

An M1 Carbine would also work pretty well, and is quite light and easy to carry.

HGUNHNTR
November 9, 2010, 08:14 PM
You could spend a lot less to have someone come out to trap them. If you are trying to justify a rifle purchase thats another story.

ECVMatt
November 9, 2010, 08:34 PM
I would look at some good Soft point ammo. I like the Winchester 64 Power points they are pretty tough and expand nicely.

AR does sound like a good choice for your situation. I would suggest you get one of the light weight carbines. Some of the others can get heavy.

I think it would be cheaper to shoot them yourself than pay a trapper or buy a trap. I don't think the trap would work more than once or twice and then you would still have a problem.

Good Luck

redbullitt
November 9, 2010, 08:50 PM
Sounds like time to do some hunting, or maybe some long walks with a rifle for sure lol.

I like the eotech with some soft points for this job. I have no problem hitting cans etc at 100 yards with mine AND it works great close up. I see no reason that you cant pick them off from 150 or 200 yards with it need be.

I have a rock river carbine with a 16.5 barrel that even when loaded is nice and light. VERY easy to tote around. Accuracy is plenty good enough too.
Something like that should work well for you.

Or maybe an AK variant if cash is tight?

Dionysusigma
November 9, 2010, 09:18 PM
I love my ARs--I'm on my 5th or 6th now--but in this case, for close-in vicious beasties that are difficult to intimidate, especially in a pack, an AK would seem like the better choice. Ranges inside 100m, tough builds and tougher spirits, and multiple targets that are likely to attack en masse seem to call for an AK in 7.62x39.

Maverick223
November 9, 2010, 09:40 PM
Currently, we have a few Remington 870's and they work well, I just don't like how long it takes to reload should I need to.Saiga-12 (or 20)...problem solved! *Though I would stick with the 5rnd mags...the 10+rnd mags are unwieldy IMO.

:)

ECVMatt
November 9, 2010, 09:51 PM
I wasn't going to bring up the AK thing, but since others did I will. They are plenty good out past a 100 yards or so, very durable, and have good power for puppies. You could add an Ulitmak gas tube scope mount and a red dot of some flavor and god help those dogs. It might save you some bucks and have the same effect as an AR.

Erik M
November 9, 2010, 10:14 PM
If you are only looking for a 'ranch gun' then 1k+ optics and 'designer' name brand AR's are nothing but a wasteful novelty. You would be fine with a Iron Site plain jane Bushmaster, DoubleStar, or CMMG.

Justin Holder
November 9, 2010, 10:30 PM
Yes I know the .223 does not have the stopping power of a .308 but in this particular case, I would rather have 30 rounds of .223 as opposed to, if I'm lucky, 3-4 rounds of .308 out of a bolt rifle.

Don't assume more bullets will make up for poor marksmanship or an under powered cartridge.

Just last year I killed 3 dogs with 3 shots from my M70 .243win. just as fast as I could work the bolt, they were all at around 100 yards and the second two were running shots.

It doesn't matter how many bullets you have in the magazine if you can't place them effectively on target.

txhoghunter
November 9, 2010, 10:37 PM
I did not mean to sound like I was going to use the extra 25 rounds for spray and pray purposes, I know as well as anyone that shot placement is key in any situation, hunting or defensive. The point I was wanting to get at is that I would like to have the quicker follow up shots, without having to worry about reloading because even the fastest reloads cost precious time in a situation like these.

788Ham
November 9, 2010, 10:44 PM
Stick with the 12 ga. shotgun, you won't have to worry about skipping rounds off their skulls. # 4 buck in the guts will turn any of them into mush, they'll get tired of running in their own gut pile, they'll quit!

Wolf 117
November 9, 2010, 10:44 PM
Once upon a time I was in your shoes. Back then it was solved by a 180 series Mini 14with a couple of 30 rd mags using 55 gr FMJ. A Mini 14 won't do you wrong but if you go with the AR buy good quality and see what it likes to eat. I have a Bushmaster that so far likes every thing, Wolf included. Like someone said before and for what you will be using it for a 16 in with 4 to 6 position rear stock. you can also add a mag pouch for the stock or carry an old Alice pouch with a couple extra.

FMJ always worked for me but you have a wide range of cartridge choice. 55 to 77 gr has worked well for me. 5.56 always put 'em down for me and the high capacity mag helped on the tough one. I had a wild chow charge me one day returning form hunting and it took 3 rounds of .308 168 grain to keep him down. He wanted me real bad. I have found wild dogs hard to kill at times.

Never had a .45 bounce of a skull though, but I had a mongrel charge me at my property fence several times at night for several weeks and never got a shot at him. One night he made the mistake of showing himself and not immediately retreating and between balancing the flashlight and the 12 gauge he took 3 rds of 00 buck and a .45 to finish him off. This dog weighed around 100 lbs.

Good luck in what you choose and stay safe.

daorhgih
November 9, 2010, 10:54 PM
Why mess around?? I mean, .223 is only .22cal plus .003. And fast, yes, but buck is a lot of lead-hail with a single pull. You say, " ... Yes I know the .223 does not have the stopping power of a .308...", to which I reply, "Get an AR-10 or clone." Why are you limping into this confrontation with a bolt-action rifle, anyway?

taliv
November 9, 2010, 10:59 PM
AR is well-suited to your stated goal. it is practical, lightweight with rapid follow up shots and accurate enough to shoot a dog easily at 200 yrds, even with irons.

i'd keep it lightweight. mounting a flashlight seems imperative, should you want to walk around at night. a good sling, since you want to keep it with you easily when doing other things. i'd slap an aimpoint on there as well.

mattlove444
November 9, 2010, 11:01 PM
Jumpin on with the AK crowd. It's perfect for this. It does the job on hogs out in burnet and those are some tough suckers. Put a gas tube rail and a Eotec or trijicon rmr and your in business. And a .30 cal is a lot better than a 556 in my opinion. Just make a decision and stick with it.

wrs840
November 9, 2010, 11:04 PM
I wasn't going to bring up the AK thing, but since others did I will.

An AK folder was my first reaction too, if someone actually thought they needed a rifle as a walk-about defense against dog packs.

Les

X-Rap
November 9, 2010, 11:17 PM
Wow I can't remember if the op is going to Kandahar or shooting feral dogs??

10-96
November 10, 2010, 12:04 AM
Txhoghunter- There's been a lot of great suggestions here, a few others... suffice it to say my opinion differs.

Keep it simple man. You aren't likely to be an extreme high volume shooter. Farms get big, sometimes batteries (for fancy sights, lights, etc) can be a long ways off, and the barrel thing... Please don't go below 16"- to keep it legal, you will have to have an extended flash suppressor or a tax/permit to keep it legally. Honestly, for farm use- the most simple CMMG Discount Bin, DPMS, Double Star, low end Rock River Arms, even an Olympic Arms will work just fine. Point is- you don't need to spend over $750 for one that will suit your needs. A 1:9" twist bbl is very common and will suit your needs fine and dandy. Those 2x to 4x circle reticle or diamond reticle shogun scopes are fantastic for yote/dog rifle scopes (I just don't recommend Simmons). If you use a varmint bullet (it'll say on the box) from 45 to 55grs- putting the circle or reticle on the critter will nearly guarantee the critter will at least go down or slow down enough to finish it off. I'm a LEO, Veteran, and an old farm kid- I don't know everything, but I think I do have at least a valid idea or two that's pertinant to your needs. Keep it simple.

lloveless
November 10, 2010, 12:44 AM
In Tn we had a similar problem. Solved with the neighbors getting together and hunting down the pack with AK'S and Rem 700's.
ll

jsimmons
November 10, 2010, 06:19 AM
I would go AR-15 too. It's accurate, light enough, and you can get them pretty cheap now, and a .223 *will* penetrate - I have a hard drive I shot that proves it. You can also use/carry 20-round mags instead of 30's, and you'll loose a little of the bulk (the 20-round mag won't stick out of the gun further than the pistol grip).

Tirod
November 10, 2010, 10:01 AM
What's not being said is why the AR is better. It's not the ammo or how cheap it is, it's about having the controls work with you to get a sight picture quicker.

The AR will do a better job. Avoid the folding stock gimmick - it takes time to unfold. I'd drop the quad rail and just use a regular handguard. Light mounts are available to put it out at the end of the muzzle where it's not shadowed by the flash hider.

A simple A3 upper for a red dot, everything else standard, Pmags for reliability, a light at the end of the barrel, and a comfortable sling you practice with to shoulder the arm. You can walk around locked and loaded, shoulder the weapon, push the safety off with the grip thumb, and fire repeatedly until the dogs get the idea.

Contrast that with unfolding and locking a stock, pushing the safety off with the trigger hand, THEN getting a sight picture, and I becomes obvious: the AK doesn't help, it hinders. You don't get the weapon to shoulder and off safe as quickly, unless you practice a lot more.

The AR was designed for new combat soldiers to operate it more easily, faster, and more safely with other soldiers in close proximity. You can shoulder and fire an AR faster with less training than an AK - unless carry with the safety off. The AR also reloads faster with less training because the mag release can be pushed by the trigger finger, and the bolt hold open bumped by the off hand after inserting. AK? no bolt hold open, mag release not close at all, reloads against a close bolt, and you have to charge the weapon with the trigger hand against a loaded magazine to get it back up and running - with the safety off.

If you need quick shots, and reloads a possibility, the AR is faster and easier to learn. The AK is arbitrary and slows the user. The significant difference in design philosophy is that the western design supports the soldier and improves survivability, the combloc design relies on mass firepower; combat losses are just a tough fact of life. What's a few million lost when you have millions more?

I certainly don't have any complaints about the gas design, especially the bolt, but I think Stoner's design team had a better idea than Kalashnikov's. The engineer in charge of controls and user friendliness for the AR got a lot more right. You can use the tool easier, rather than have to learn to make it work right. Gun designs do improve over the years, putting all the controls in the right place at least starts a shooter out further ahead.

Seen a cell phone with rotary dial on the front? I don't think it would be faster, but the AK fanboys keep coming up with excuses.

ny32182
November 10, 2010, 10:37 AM
I would take an AR carbine, 16" if non-NFA; SBR w/can if NFA... Irons and/or Aimpoint, no magnifier, your choice of sling for walking around. Aimpoint will work in low light; is good for snap sight picture on a dog-size target out to 200+ yards easily, and I think I last turned mine off sometime in 2008... I don't know any farms too big for that.

If you think that these dogs are really so dangerous that reload speed after expending 30 rounds is a serious concern, I would also be taking an enclosed vehicle and some friends. Those must be some hardcore dogs.

Rexster
November 10, 2010, 11:17 AM
If I had your problem, in your environment, I would use either my AR15 (BCM upper, S&W lower with RRA internals) or Mini-14, with either my Leupold fixed-power scope or Aimpoint Micro T-1. Either weapon, either optic. If coyote hunters, and I know a few, are happy with these weapons, then so am I. When we retire, I hope we will be living on rural acreage.

I could/would also use a Marlin 1894C .357 Magnum lever rifle, probably with a similar optic, but perhaps with an XS Sights front sight with the white stripe. My formerly 20/13 vision is not what it used to be!

One of my LEO colleagues has done well against several pit bulls with his "grandfathered" S&W Model 686 .357 Mag duty pistol, and yes, we Texans remember that revolvers are pistols. (Look up Sam Colt's patent.) He is scared of dogs, they sense the fear, advance, and he performs the indicated response. He has not been bitten by any pit bull he has shot, though not all of them fell DRT.

I've not had to shoot a dog on duty, but then, some folks call me a dog whisperer, so I reckon I am communicating my willingness to kill the dogs well enough, and they sense that and depart. To be clear, though, a pack of dogs marauding in a farm area is a different kettle of fish than my urbanized patrol area; I would, if living on a farm, have to proactively deal with them, not merely shoo them away. I have stood by with a shotgun while an animal control officer darted and then noosed pit bulls. My employing PD's rules on carbine deployment are fairly strict and narrow in focus, with dangerous dogs not being one of the approved situations; therefore the shotgun. I would RATHER have the .223/5.56 rifle in my hands, but enough of my colleagues have shot dangerous dogs with shotguns for me to know that at close range, a shotgun will certainly stop a pit bull.

Last time I lived in a rural area with small livestock, and had to deal with bad dogs, I was still a kid in a non-gun household. It is heartbreaking to see animals being attacked by dogs, and then being limited to charging outside with a stick.

Pony Express
November 10, 2010, 11:51 AM
10.5 with a suppressor
That will be a LOT of paperwork and a pretty long wait. If you're set on a rifle, I'd stick with a 16" carbine with irons and a removable carry handle so you can add optics if you want. Irons will do you just fine, under 200yards .223 is a pretty flat shooting round so you dont need to worry too much about trajectory between 0-200yards.

However, with that being said, I personally would pack a 12 gauge...cheaper from the get-go and there is nothing that can quite match the power of 00 Buck, or even if you don't feel comfortable with that, then some slugs aughta do the trick

Zach S
November 10, 2010, 12:06 PM
If you are only looking for a 'ranch gun' then 1k+ optics and 'designer' name brand AR's are nothing but a wasteful novelty. You would be fine with a Iron Site plain jane Bushmaster, DoubleStar, or CMMG.
Agreed. Nothing wrong with the irons on an AR, they'll work great until, and after, you get an optic.

To be honest, I'd rather use my AK. But I bought it to use as a truck/trunk/beater rifle.

Seen a cell phone with rotary dial on the front? I don't think it would be faster, but the AK fanboys keep coming up with excuses.
Cell phone with a rotory dial? You're metaphor is comparing a modern phone with an antique, when the AK's and AR's designs are both antique and are only about ten years apart.

Using that same reasoning, I could recommend an XCR, FS2000, ACR, etc.

Dionysusigma
November 10, 2010, 12:35 PM
Well, this turned into an "AR vs. AK" thread pretty quick... :D

X-Rap: Wow... I can't remember if the op is going to Kandahar, or shooting feral dogs. Some tools have multiple uses. I have pounded nails and done car body work with the same hammer. ;)

HB
November 10, 2010, 12:48 PM
Just buy a 30-30 or a 22 mag. A 30-30 would be about ideal because ammo is cheap(er), more than powerful enough, and most importantly THE handiest rifle you will find. For me, feral dogs don't warrant an AR.

Is it even legal to shoot them?

HB

MightyTygart
November 10, 2010, 12:55 PM
Is it even legal to shoot them?

This would certainly not be my first concern when staring down the barrel at a pack of wild/angry/hungry dogs.

txhoghunter
November 10, 2010, 01:17 PM
Ok lets think about this legality situation. If a person is attacking you, on your own property or not, the use of deadly force is legal (at least here in Texas). How would this differ from any animal?

Now, we did call the local sheriff's dept and they stated that since these dogs have killed livestock, as well as attacked people. We are legally allowed to shoot them on-sight if they are on our property. Of course, no shooting across property lines, public roads, etc. But yes, it is in every sense of the word, legal to shoot these dogs.

A and O
November 10, 2010, 01:58 PM
Or even a mini 30 or mini 14 Ranch Rifle. The take a beating and keep eating. Pretty much made for just this application. I realize this is like saying Glocks suck on this site.

HB
November 10, 2010, 02:19 PM
I'm glad you checked out the legal situation, because in a lot of states, you want no part harming a "pet".

That being said, if I had money, an AR would be a good tool for the job. Not needed, but makes life easier.

HB

10-96
November 10, 2010, 02:20 PM
Txhoghunter- What we were refering to with the legal stuff is the length of the barrel. If you go shorter than 16" on a rifle or shorter than 18" on a shotgun without a tax stamp, fees, and paperwork- that's where you get into legal troubles. There's no problem at all shooting depredating or marauding critters on your property. Now that said, we can have barrels shorter than 16" but they will have to have permanently attaches flash suppressors, compensators, or other non-silencing muzzle device.

Aside from varmint hunting as a hobby- I think it's the most logical and responsible approach you can take to shoot em. Any livestock on your property is an investment and the state understands that. That's why I see it almost as a duty and/or resonsibility to kill yotes, wild dogs, and anything else that cuts into my family, friends', and neighbors' bottom line (investments, cash flow, assets- it all ties together in terminology and numbers)

DoubleTapDrew
November 10, 2010, 02:20 PM
Could you just put out a bucket of raw meat with a "secret ingredient" and poison em?

Rexster
November 10, 2010, 02:26 PM
Poisoning is generally illegal, and can have unintended consequences.

Maverick223
November 10, 2010, 02:44 PM
Poisoning is generally illegal, and can have unintended consequences.True and very true. You could unintentionally poison harmless animals (including endangered species) or even livestock which could be consumed by, and poison someone. I agree that poisoning is usually not the right response, shooting them as necessary and/or trapping is a much better option.

:)

daorhgih
November 10, 2010, 04:19 PM
... saying how you feel, but you may be asked to man-up and give evidence for your opinion!! Lots of guns "suck", but how many of them have sold 7,000,000 copies?? Why hasn't anyone cloned a Glock yet?? They're ashamed to?????

Maverick223
November 10, 2010, 04:37 PM
There's no rule against [...] saying how you feel, but you may be asked to man-up and give evidence for your opinion!! Lots of guns "suck", but how many of them have sold 7,000,000 copies?? Why hasn't anyone cloned a Glock yet?? They're ashamed to?????I'm not a big proponent of the AR-15 either...I use the lack of one in my safe as evidence. :neener: ...and yes, i'd be very much ashamed if I cloned a Glock. :p

BHP FAN
November 10, 2010, 05:00 PM
Mini 14 ''Ranch Rifle''...there's a reason they call it that. You don't have to sell the ranch to afford one!

oldbanjo
November 10, 2010, 05:04 PM
If it were me I'd have two guns a SKS and a Shotgun. A SKS works fine for Deer hunting, I've killed running deer with mine. Closer shots with #1 buck could get more than one dog. I would most defiantly have a Shotgun.

A and O
November 10, 2010, 05:31 PM
Actually. I only used the Glock as an example to compare with the Mini's. I don't own a Glock, probably never will. Can't get past the grip angle. Does not mean I hate them.

basicblur
November 10, 2010, 05:49 PM
FWIW...I just kinda blew through the thread, but I did notice someone mention a flip-up front sight. I kinda like the fixed front-don't really notice it through a scope, and if one had to use it, flipping up a rear ain't so bad, but reaching up and flipping the front up also?

Somebody on another thread mentioned they got the new EOTech @ Botach Tactical for well under $400 using code EOTECH at checkout-I cruised on over and saw no mention made of the code, but tossed one in the basket, used the EOTech code and it knocked off $119-not too shabby.

Think this was the newest EOTech (XPS line) with the single sideways battery-nice looking little unit I've been eyeballing-haven't really kept up with 'em-I have the 556 with 4x magnifier on one o' mine-a bit heavy for a ranch rifle? I'd think you'd do just fine without the magnifier-if not, you could always add later.

Just blew by EOTech's site (http://www.eotech-inc.com/)-I see they have a PDF rebate coupon-don't know if you could get a double rebate (Botach & EOTech), but might be worth checking into. Might want to make sure Botach Tactical is an authorized EOTech dealer, iff'n the rebate from EOTech is a stickler for such stuff?

EDIT: Just blew by Botach Tactical-XPS2-2 (http://www.botachtactical.com/eotechxps.html) (two aiming dots) is $469 with a $93 discount ($375.20) using EOTECH code.
Downloaded the PDF rebate form from EOTech-shows $50 rebate on XPS2 model which would make it $325.20-gonna haff to call EOTech tomorrow and see if there's any problem getting the $50 rebate if buying from Botach Tactical?
If not, I'm a thinkin'...

stsimons
November 10, 2010, 05:53 PM
I would suggest a Kel Tec PLR 16. Its a 223 pistol with a 9.2in barrel. It weighs about 4lbs loaded and is only 18.5 inches long due to the piston system, no need for a rear buffer. Takes standard AR magazines too.

http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/pistols/plr-16/

Its very accurate and easy to carry around... the irons on this gun are very accurate due to the long (13in or so) sight length... Should fit your needs to a T...

jmorris
November 10, 2010, 06:07 PM
If you go shorter than 16" on a rifle or shorter than 18" on a shotgun without a tax stamp, fees, and paperwork- that's where you get into legal troubles.

No big deal, $200, 12 pages of trust and stop by the bank to have it notarized on the way to the post office. If the $200 breaks the bank you would be better off going with a cheaper .223 than an AR in the first place.

M1key
November 10, 2010, 06:33 PM
Wonder if a .357 Sig round would bounce off that skull? :scrutiny:

Glock 31 w/ pair of 15-round mags would be my carry for around the ranchero.

The AR with a Red Dot for hunting, loaded with 75 TAP.




M

husker
November 10, 2010, 06:53 PM
I dispatched a pack of wild KILLER dogs using one of these. Ya Cant miss & problem solved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1sS1TmXF38

migkillertwo
November 10, 2010, 10:03 PM
I would suggest this (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Standard-16-LIGHT-WEIGHT-Upper-Receiver-p/bcm-urg-car-16lw.htm) or this (http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=63_134&products_id=467&zenid=dumoq668ugqdtppgikc2qp6345) upper receiver coupled with any lower receiver from a reputable company that has a collapsible stock

Dont forget to get handguards and BCG if you go with the Bravocompany upper. TBH though, the specs on the bravo company are not much better than the Spikes. Now that Spikes uppers are certified mil-spec and are HPT, I really can't point to a difference between Spikes and BCM.

Tirod
November 10, 2010, 11:28 PM
A collapsible stock doesn't do anything for a man walking with the rifle slung. Taking the time to extend it to working length is time not getting on target.

It wasn't meant as an AK vs. AR thread. It's about which gun has operator controls that help get accurate shots downrange quicker. Newer designs are certainly even better - a left hand charging bolt is better than breaking cheek weld with the AR. What is important to note from the newer designs is they take what the AR got right and go further with ambidextrous controls that leave the firing hand on the grip, too. They specifically DON'T make the situation worse by slower operation, they have thumb operated safeties, finger operated mag releases, and offer more speed because of it. They continue what is known to be better, not make vague excuses for what is basically an inferior layout.

Consider 9 million M16 pattern rifles have been made, in direct competition against the AK, and were chosen by those who had the freedom to make a decision, rather than accept what a totalitarian government instructed them to use. When the new designs are studied, the AR pattern of controls is what is copied, not the AK, and that's why the SCAR, ACR, XCR, ARX, etc are all in competition among free nations. They exist and are chosen where professionals and subject matter experts have input, not which party official with a factory concession needs a new plant.

It's about which set of operator controls does a better job, and thumb safeties, mag releases by finger push, and off hand bolt handles are taking over. They are simply better, and becoming the standard. It's exactly the difference in ten years that the AK suffers and missed out on.

jmorris
November 11, 2010, 09:35 AM
A collapsible stock doesn't do anything for a man walking with the rifle slung. Taking the time to extend it to working length is time not getting on target.

It wasn't meant as an AK vs. AR thread. It's about which gun has operator controls that help get accurate shots downrange quicker.


I agree with your feelings of collapsible stock and feel the same about the people suggesting folders. Hell, that’s like suggesting a take down rifle? Again, the same can be said for sights that have to be turned on or adjusted for brightness.

The op already knew he wanted an AR (it’s even in the title) so shotgun, while the best answer for his problem, is not what he wants. He also asked about “add-ons” so he likely wants to add a bunch of stuff to it. For defense, simple point and click is a lot better than programming a VCR with a bunch of crap.

Even a quick 45 ricocheting off the skull would be far more effective in keeping you from getting bit than turning on and/or adjusting the brightness on the eotech he is considering only to shoulder it and then realize he needs to flip the magnifier out of the way because the dogs are already chewing on him.

jerkface11
November 11, 2010, 10:24 AM
Since you're walking around with it you should probably avoid a heavy barrel make sure the barrel isn't just a smaller diameter in front of the gas block since manufacturers like to skip the step of turning the whole thing down. I would go with handguards over a free float tube just to save a little weight. For the stock go with an ACE tubular they are 10 ounces lighter than an A2. Or you could get a CAV arms lower and save even more weight.

Onmilo
November 11, 2010, 11:27 AM
I have two AR15s that I carry out in the fields.
One is an M4 clone with a Trijicon TA01NSN scope and one is a full size 20" rifle built on the Canadian C1A1 style with another Trijicon, this one an RCO regulated for the 20" barrel.
Both have Magpul CTR mil-spec collapsing stocks and MOE grips with standard two piece handguards.
I use Spec-Ops MasterBlaster two point slings and Colt side mount sling loops on both for field use.

I also have a Model 70 Featherweight Winchester in .243 stashed in an outbuilding for dealing with the longer shots.
It wears a 3X9 Leupold VariX lll scope in Leupold mount and rings.

We don't have a wild dog problem unless you count 'coydogs' which is a coyote/dog hybrid.
Mostly coyote, fox, and raccoons, some skunk, that are coming in to eat the chickens and the eggs.

Muley
November 11, 2010, 07:22 PM
my 2 cents ar platform in a .308,,,,,just to laugh at the hole in the aggresive dogs. Or a real "protection gun" Mossbergs 7 shot semi auto 12 ga. with
00 buck,,,, it won shotgun of the year a few years back, popular LE gun.

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