Puma 454 Carbine N.C.


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Nasty Ned
November 10, 2010, 01:18 PM
I have a very close friend who is hot for one of the Spanish Puma 454 Carbines. We understand they can have a 16 or 20" barrel. The specific model No. is PUB68016.

We are looking for someone with any knowledge about the quality, dependability etc. of these guns or just any stories good or bad.

Your advice here will be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

N.N.

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WardenWolf
November 10, 2010, 01:21 PM
I've been looking into one of those myself. Everything I've heard says they're very good, reliable lever guns. Some people think they're a bit stiff, but that's easily corrected. By the way, I think Puma is actually Brazilian, not Spanish. They're made by Rossi.

natman
November 10, 2010, 01:47 PM
Point 1: The SAAMI pressure for the 454 Casull is 50,000 cup. That's the same as a 30-06. No other cartridge for the Winchester 92 is anywhere near that combination of case head area and pressure. The Winchester 92 was designed for cartridges like the 44-40 which has a SAAMI pressure of 13,000 cup. So a 454 Casull is like a proof load of a proof load of the original cartridge. :what:

Point 2: The Rossi copies of the 92 are rough, almost crude compared to Winchester or Browning 92s. I've owned a couple of them, I spent hours smoothing them out, never could get one to shoot well. I don't plan to ever own another, especially in 454. As attractive as the concept is it's been hot rodded a bit too far IMHO.

KMD
November 10, 2010, 06:20 PM
I love mine, it's a great little bush gun.
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g125/nivekwerd/100_1912.jpg

CraigC
November 10, 2010, 10:16 PM
SAAMI pressure standard for the .454 is 65,000psi, not 50. The 1892 has been proven plenty strong for the cartridge and 'some' folks even run their .45Colts up to 50,000psi. What it was "designed for" 120yrs ago and what a modern reproduction is capable of today are two different things.

natman
November 11, 2010, 11:46 AM
SAAMI pressure standard for the .454 is 65,000psi, not 50. The 1892 has been proven plenty strong for the cartridge and 'some' folks even run their .45Colts up to 50,000psi. What it was "designed for" 120yrs ago and what a modern reproduction is capable of today are two different things.

The SAAMI pressure for the 454 Casull is 50,000 cup.

I said 50,000 CUP not PSI. Same pressure. Yes, I know people have them and they don't blow up, at least not right away. But the 92 is still a 120 year old black powder design with rear locking and small parts.

And my observations of Rossi's quality still stand. Trying to excuse it being chambered for such a hot cartridge because it's a "modern reproduction" is a bit of a stretch. The metallurgy might be better than the originals, but the fit and finish certainly isn't. All in all it's a poor combination IMO. I wouldn't own one, YMMV.

CraigC
November 11, 2010, 11:57 AM
50,000CUP is not equal to 65,000psi. Even Hodgdon's data exceeds 50,000CUP. The .45Colts can be run up to 50,000CUP. Most loading data is in the 50-55,000psi range, as is most factory ammo. This is because it works best in the Ruger Super Redhawk. Original Freedom Arms ammo and data runs in the original 65,000psi range because the guns are better suited to this extreme range. I wouldn't run the Puma to 65,000psi but it should do fine with loads in the 50-55,000psi range.

All the levermakers experimented with the different designs when the .454 gained popularity as a factory cartridge. None of the existing designs, including the Marlin 1984 and 336, Winchester 94 and Big Bore 94 could withstand the pressure. None grenaded, they simply shook themselves loose in short order. Only the 1886, which is too large, and the 1892 proved strong enough to handle the pressure over the long haul. Due in no small part to its vertical locking lugs. We all gasped when the .454 came out in what appears to be a standard 1892 format. Our initial fears have proved untrue because I have yet to hear of one shaking loose. No, Rossi is not a top tier gunmaker but their 1892's are VERY well reputed, even if they do take some slicking up on the inside.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

philbo
November 11, 2010, 12:57 PM
My Rossi 454 in stainless and hi-viz sights is the epitome of a great brush gun. Most of my loads involve a 250 grain JHP in the 40,000 cup range. Excellent for short range, open sight hunting and easily handled by the Rossi 92. It also handles bullets over 325 grains... something my old 44 mag didn't do as well. I love the 454 in this rifle, and would especially recommend it if you reload... if you don't reload, you'll soon wish you did once you price factory ammo. :D

jyo
November 11, 2010, 05:19 PM
I went a different way---Ruger #3 single-shot rebarreled to .454 Casull---wonderful little rifle.

kludge
November 11, 2010, 05:39 PM
The 16" is a SWEET handling rifle. I was "this close" to buying one with the Hi-Viz sights; no longer offered. The 20"? meh.

natman
November 12, 2010, 03:40 AM
I said 50,000 CUP not PSI. Same pressure.


50,000CUP is not equal to 65,000psi. Even Hodgdon's data exceeds 50,000CUP.

Oops, I meant to say "Same pressure as a 30-06." Mea culpa.

srh 454
November 27, 2010, 12:53 AM
I have had a 20 inch ss model for 2 years and cant say anything bad about it. I have tagged 2 whietail with it and one was well past 100 yards and both were 1 shot kills. Very tuff gun. i would go with the hi vis sights 4 sure or do what i did and put a williams peep on it, it works great. any other q's just ask me .

mgkdrgn
November 28, 2010, 04:54 PM
I have a very close friend who is hot for one of the Spanish Puma 454 Carbines. We understand they can have a 16 or 20" barrel. The specific model No. is PUB68016.

We are looking for someone with any knowledge about the quality, dependability etc. of these guns or just any stories good or bad.

Your advice here will be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

N.N.
Well, I've got one, and I like it just fine. I mainly shoot 45 Colt out of it for plinking.

If you want one, you are going to have to buy a used one ... they don't make 'em any more.

When I learned they were going out of production, I bought every single one I could find from the distributors I deal with. Only "new" gun I was ever able to make any money on as an independent FFL.

pricedo
December 17, 2010, 05:14 AM
Well, I've got one, and I like it just fine. I mainly shoot 45 Colt out of it for plinking.

If you want one, you are going to have to buy a used one ... they don't make 'em any more.

When I learned they were going out of production, I bought every single one I could find from the distributors I deal with. Only "new" gun I was ever able to make any money on as an independent FFL.

Found a brand spanking new one in the 20" barrel configuration. The last one the store had.

Grabbed it !!

Apparently the Rossi Puma rifles will be imported by another American company (Legacy Sports Intl.) and the Puma rifle will be made with a .480 Ruger edition as well as the .454 Casull.

See review on Gunblast.com.

The review sounded pretty good for the current Pumas and the new .480 Ruger model.

dagger dog
December 17, 2010, 07:13 AM
The newest Pumas are made in Spain by Chiappa and imported by Legacy Sports, The Rossi '92 is imported by Braztec from Brazil , Braztec is a conglomerate that includes Tarus,Rossi.

I have the hots for a Rossi '92 in.45 Colt, (they do make a 20,24" barrel .454 Casull) and have been reading all the owners reports for quite a while, as my bankroll gets larger.

Most are reporting the Rossi's are worth the money, I would say 85%have good things to say about them,the main negative reports have been about the roughness in the action and the wood to metal fit, very few have been about defects.

Panzercat
December 17, 2010, 08:36 AM
Researched these extensively before deciding this particular rifle is the one I'll be purchasing on my next birthday.

The Puma model is stated to absolutely fine with nonstop usage in a Gunblast review (too lazy to grab the link. Google gunblast, puma) and even a followup commentary in another review after two years of nonstop .454 usage... No issues with pressure whatsoever inspite of the pressure concerns you always see broached by non-owners. Too bad the only Puma's you'll find these days are the discontinued older models; more than likely on the gun auction sites if you're lucky.

Hopefully the newer Rossi's have a bit more availibilty by the time march rolls around. These things are scare as hell for reasons I have yet to divine.

pricedo
December 22, 2010, 04:36 AM
Researched these extensively before deciding this particular rifle is the one I'll be purchasing on my next birthday.

The Puma model is stated to absolutely fine with nonstop usage in a Gunblast review (too lazy to grab the link. Google gunblast, puma) and even a followup commentary in another review after two years of nonstop .454 usage... No issues with pressure whatsoever inspite of the pressure concerns you always see broached by non-owners. Too bad the only Puma's you'll find these days are the discontinued older models; more than likely on the gun auction sites if you're lucky.

Hopefully the newer Rossi's have a bit more availibilty by the time march rolls around. These things are scare as hell for reasons I have yet to divine.
I'm wondering what 92 Gunblast.com tested ?........the Rossi one or the Chiappa manufactured gun??

The Chiappas are different in that they have a useless and redundant safety on top of the receiver and some of them have cheap looking "hivizz" plastic sights which clashes with the legacy aspect of a model 92.

Mine (.454 Casull/.45 LC model) is a Rossi which is legacy looking in all aspects including legacy dovetail sights and no "bucks best friend" redundant safety on top of the receiver between the riser blocks like the Chiappa version which is as useless and potentially hunt spoiling as the cross bolt safety on some Marlin 336s.

Other than the two action reinforcing riser blocks my gun looks like my uncles original Winchester model 92 in .44-40.

It's an impressive gun with dark grained Brazilian walnut stock and for-end and the wood to metal fit on my gun is excellent.

I don't see any of the tool marks that some posters complained about and the action is a little stiff but no more so than a brand new out-of-the-box 94, 336 or 1895. The finish is mirror smooth and there is none of the rust or barrel corrosion spoken of by some detractors........the barrel on mine is immaculate.

I hope it shoots just as impressively as it looks.

pricedo
January 5, 2011, 01:27 AM
Researched these extensively before deciding this particular rifle is the one I'll be purchasing on my next birthday.

The Puma model is stated to absolutely fine with nonstop usage in a Gunblast review (too lazy to grab the link. Google gunblast, puma) and even a followup commentary in another review after two years of nonstop .454 usage... No issues with pressure whatsoever inspite of the pressure concerns you always see broached by non-owners. Too bad the only Puma's you'll find these days are the discontinued older models; more than likely on the gun auction sites if you're lucky.

Hopefully the newer Rossi's have a bit more availibilty by the time march rolls around. These things are scare as hell for reasons I have yet to divine.

Emailed Legacy Sports Inc. and was told in the reply (Andy McCormick - VP Sales & Marketing) that Chiappa DOESN'T produce a Puma in .454 Casull.

Checked the LSI website.......indeed there are no .454 or .480 Pumas any more & while choices have gone down pricing has gone up through the roof & into the stratosphere.........$899.00 - $990.00 a unit.

There is a .45-70 Puma Model 1886 for (hold onto a chair or the sofa for support) - $1399.00 !!

Me thinks there will be some Pumas getting rusty with age in the boxes at LSI unless prices get back down to earth.

But I guess they have real walnut instead of Brazilian hard wood ........that should tighten up groups on the target paper significantly. :D

Had my Rossi M92 in .454 out to the range yesterday........pushed two boxes of Hornady 240 grain HPs downrange & the gun stood up well with no signs of the loosening ammo tube, for-end splitting, barrel band pin breaking, or feeding problems I was warned about by the naysayers.....gun kicks like a mule when shooting full power .454s and is quite accurate for its intended purpose........nice little 1 1/4" cluster at 50 yards with the gun supported haphazardly on my ammo box & using the buck horn iron sights.........would do better off a proper sandbag rest.........after all it's a 92, not a sniper or varmint rifle.

mgkdrgn
June 30, 2011, 02:06 PM
This GB fellow has several of them, new in box. He bought 30 just as the went out of production. I -think- he has about 10 left.

I have one of these, and it is a GREAT little gun. I mainly shoot mine in 45 Colt, but I can toss in there ANY 45 Colt load I want with out worry. Oh, and the tube loading rather than gate loading is a GREAT feature!!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=238850771

PS ... I have NO connection with this seller ... but he is the only place that I know of that has any of these left. Get 'em while you can!!

Sig88
June 30, 2011, 02:39 PM
I am completely satisfied with my Marlins which I think are reasonably priced. I may give a Puma/Rossi down the road some of them are reasonably priced. I'd be interested in a 454 possibly but right now my 45-70 will have to do.

Panzercat
June 30, 2011, 02:59 PM
As somebody who hunted for these for a while, gunbroker.com is your best bet. pumas and their rossi counterparts are no longer in production (regardless of what their website says). The stainless version is nearly impossible to get.

Ignore the concerns about pressures and actions, they're reported to be rock solid. Gunblast did an initial review on the model and then a followup a few years and hundreds of hot loads later. No issues. Slick the action up to your liking.

Good luck on grabbing one.

jim goose
June 30, 2011, 11:01 PM
I saw a used one in GA> last yr. 16" Stainless model with dark wood. It had a trigger job and some nice sights on it, they wanted 600 usd. It was a sweet little gun. The finish on it was as nice as any winchester or marlin lever gun id seen. But alot cooler.

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